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On July 14 2012 05:02 SidewinderSC2 wrote:
WTF is with these responses? 2-base Mothership into expand is one of the most solid PvZ builds in the game.
If you add cannons under your Mothership, Corrupter diving is never cost effective because of the HP of the Mothership and the good DPS that cannons do. Zealot, Archon + Vortex is literally the most cost-effective combination in the game assuming equal supply, unless the Zerg tosses banelings or something in the vortex. Even if they make enough Corrupters to kill your Mothership, you just power your 3 base economy to a huge Zealot Archon counter attack, and there's no way Zerg can reinforce over that after he's invested enough gas and supply into killing a Mothership with Corrupters, despite Archons and Cannon fire.
This guy has a decent MMR, and like he said, plays vs high GM players. What more do people want? If you have a higher MMR, you should be out solving your own problems or making your own builds, but I'm a firm believer that any reasonably well thought-out strategy can beat any caliber of player in the right hands.
Most responses in this thread are forum-nerdery, where they just state a counter as if the opponent always has infinity information. One of the benefits of 2-base Mothership is that they know you have a Mothership, but have virtually no idea what is under the Mothership until they commit to an attack, or sacrifice an overseer and hopefully see everything that's there. That's a lot of time for the Protoss player to stabilize into a super solid unit count. People should actually consider the actual game, instead of saying stuff like "well, they could easily just drop banelings on every mineral line, have max mutas, fungal your army to death, Corrupter snipe the Mothership and then EASILY win! Duh!"
Regarding Sentries in PvZ - I'm just waiting for the day that Zergs automatically take an additional geyser on top of their Roach plays, research drops and just drop a max Roach army on top of a pathetic sentry count and easily win games. Sentries in PvZ are so overrated.. why do people think that no sentries = no safety? I'm shocked that Zergs already don't automatically research drops when seeing more than 3 sentries on the field. It's such an easy win if their sentries have basically 0 cost effectiveness. More than anything, all of these pushes designed to rely on forcefields will become obsolete as Zergs figure out that drops + Roaches completely counter a sentry-based army. In the future, more Zealots and building walls will be used to expand and control space, rather than sentry energy, as drops get more popular. Hopefully this will cause Protoss players to spend gas on units that have a long life-span and wide range of use... at least some people are already figuring these steps out and planning for the future.
@OP: I think your usage of words makes people immediately judgmental. I have to admit, when I first clicked on the thread, I wanted to check your replays to see what caliber of players you were playing. I expected it to be like High Diamond or something, just by the title of the thread. If the title actually described the build order, people would probably be more respectful.
In any event, I use a very similar build, and have a very similar winrate at 1000-1200 Masters NA. My build opens double Stargate pressure and gets a little later Mothership. I also rely on cannons quite a bit, basically borrowing the opener from that other thread about the Mothership, VR expand, but I add Immortals on 3 bases so I can power through Roaches and Spine walls. The high Void Ray count really helps out in the late-game especially.. I hate investing gas into units that have an expiration date on their usefulness. In my games, I usually just sit and wait for a favorable engagement (basically if I land a single Vortex), and then counter for the win with warp prism reinforcement. I like the 2x Stargate opener for double Phoenix in the event that they open Spire, by the way.
The ability to harass really heavily and recall is a big bonus, too... something that traditional PvZ does not offer whatsoever.
Overall, any build that opens 2-base Mothership is solid assuming they take the necessary precautions and scout well. Of course, stuff like drops, Nydus, etc are going to cause problems, but not more problems than any other sentry-based build would already have. Regarding this specific build, unless you have a quick Immortal transition planned or a high Void Ray/Phoenix Count along with cannons, I'm also a little worried about a Zerg that blindly eco Roaches really hard. Of course you can trade very efficiently with a Vortex, but if you're ever out of MS energy after reinforcement, I think you're going to have trouble without some beefy, high anti-armored DPS units.
While I would never consider myself special enough to automatically fall outside the categories of forum readers you've described (forum-nerdery etc.), I've written a few guides and a discussion page, and I find it pretty funny how many people don't even read the whole post, don't watch the replays, and comment with the first criticism they can think of, and than NEVER come back to see if the OP responded. I wonder to myself if these people have any idea how stupidly obvious it is that they didn't even put in the effort to read the OP and consider his sources before shit talking. Frequency wise, its about 2-3 useless posts to every 1 well thought-out worthwhile post. What sucks the most is that legitimate questions get less attention/discussion or are discarded.
The more I've posted here, the more I've accepted it, and responding to the forum-nerdery has become a routine part of posting for me. It sucks, but hey, welcome to the forum haha.
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On July 14 2012 05:12 the p00n wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2012 04:53 Tombomb wrote:On July 14 2012 04:48 the p00n wrote:On July 14 2012 04:43 Tombomb wrote:
Echoing NoNonsense's skepticism, after reading the guide and watching your replays, I feel that this is a build that's more map specific than compositionally specific. I see it running into issues on maps where multi-pronged aggression excel, but excelling on maps where the 2nd and 3rd bases can be defended with small well positioned groups of units and good wall offs.
That being said, perhaps an adjustment on maps such as cloud kingdom or daybreak that have several available attack paths could be building an extra sentry or 2 and using gateways to sim-city bases?
Just a suggestion. Thanks for the write-up. It seems impossible, but I can verify from own experience that it actually is holdable with this build. There's not much else to say. What you think is not holdable with this build due to the low amount of units, actually is holdable. Can you include a replay? The only replay we have of you holding anything remotely similar to the max roach style that's come up several times is the game where you faced mutalisk play. By the time you were hit with a sizable roach force, your army had grown considerably larger than it was when a Stephano esq. max would hit you. We're not trying to punch holes in your strategy or ridicule you, we're trying to understand your reasoning and see an example of what you are trying to teach us. The replay on condemned ridge that I have attached is a good example of a stephano-esque build, although he used a lot of hydras instead of roaches. It accomplished roughly the same thing, however, and even made me lose my mothership (which I could have saved). Keep in mind that if he has only roaches your void ray and mothership will have free reign. If you are feeling insecure against mass roach timings (which I don't), you can always add one extra void ray. I'm a bit thin on recent, relevant replays but I can probably find a few more.
I'll give the condemned ridge replay another look. Thanks! I know some zergs I can get to try the Max roach deal against me and I'll use your build the best I can and comeback with any good replays [i.e. both me and my opponent play solidly] I can generate.
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I got another easy win for you:
- 9 Pylon, chrono only probes
- 13 Forge
- 17 3x Pylons at ramp = gg
Only way for Zerg to beat it, besides patrolling the ramp (which you can still glitch out if they are using patrol command, or if you bring 2 probes), is to 6-10 pool, in which case you either cannon your main or block the ramp, win.
win win scenario. I dont know why Toss isn't 100% on ladder.
On a side note, good guide. Seems like most of the Toss I play on ladder. They beat me too.
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On July 14 2012 05:09 Jergen wrote:This build seems awfully similar to http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=271279 with the exception that you're going for Zealot Archon instead of Blink Stalker. Have you tried the latter as well as the former? Seems like +2 blink could give you a good period of strength, even without the fast toilets.
If you read the first paragraph you can see that Plexa links to my earlier version of this build that I had posted. He identified the similarities as well. That being said, I have tried that build as well and it seemed grossly inferior to me - more like a build I would use in a bo3 or bo5 to throw an opponent off, not like my standard go-to macro build.
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On July 14 2012 05:14 Tombomb wrote:While I would never consider myself special enough to automatically fall outside the categories of forum readers you've described (forum-nerdery etc.), I've written a few guides and a discussion page, and I find it pretty funny how many people don't even read the whole post, don't watch the replays, and comment with the first criticism they can think of, and than NEVER come back to see if the OP responded. I wonder to myself if these people have any idea how stupidly obvious it is that they didn't even put in the effort to read the OP and consider his sources before shit talking. Frequency wise, its about 2-3 useless posts to every 1 well thought-out worthwhile post. What sucks the most is that legitimate questions get less attention/discussion or are discarded.
The more I've posted here, the more I've accepted it, and responding to the forum-nerdery has become a routine part of posting for me. It sucks, but hey, welcome to the forum haha.
Indeed. I just think it's reasonable to give the OP a fair chance. They didn't play all these games, figure out specific timings and make a detailed forum post for some know-nothing to chime in with their uneducated opinion. Like this OP, I also like to make cool stuff that wins at reasonably high levels and share it with people that also want to do cool stuff. But half the time, people chime in with "well this will never work.. lawl", when it's obvious that I either have a better MMR and a better winrate, or they don't even understand what is going on in the build.
I can't believe how incredibly disrespectful people are on the internet, especially in a community like this. People should watch the replays, try it, or at least bring some semblance of intelligence regarding how the game actually works before they start adding lame comments like "lawl, no sentries = gg". If people don't like it, include a way to improve it rather than blatantly dumping ass on somebody's hard work. If people actually don't understand the game, they shouldn't be posting on a strategy forum.
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On July 14 2012 05:18 Belial88 wrote:
I got another easy win for you:
- 9 Pylon, chrono only probes
- 13 Forge
- 17 3x Pylons at ramp = gg
Only way for Zerg to beat it, besides patrolling the ramp (which you can still glitch out if they are using patrol command, or if you bring 2 probes), is to 6-10 pool, in which case you either cannon your main or block the ramp, win.
win win scenario. I dont know why Toss isn't 100% on ladder.
On a side note, good guide. Seems like most of the Toss I play on ladder. They beat me too.
I can vouch for this as well, btw. Belial isn't crying, trolling or exaggerating, this is actually pretty broken and always has been as far as I can remember.
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On July 14 2012 05:16 Tombomb wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2012 05:12 the p00n wrote:On July 14 2012 04:53 Tombomb wrote:On July 14 2012 04:48 the p00n wrote:On July 14 2012 04:43 Tombomb wrote:
Echoing NoNonsense's skepticism, after reading the guide and watching your replays, I feel that this is a build that's more map specific than compositionally specific. I see it running into issues on maps where multi-pronged aggression excel, but excelling on maps where the 2nd and 3rd bases can be defended with small well positioned groups of units and good wall offs.
That being said, perhaps an adjustment on maps such as cloud kingdom or daybreak that have several available attack paths could be building an extra sentry or 2 and using gateways to sim-city bases?
Just a suggestion. Thanks for the write-up. It seems impossible, but I can verify from own experience that it actually is holdable with this build. There's not much else to say. What you think is not holdable with this build due to the low amount of units, actually is holdable. Can you include a replay? The only replay we have of you holding anything remotely similar to the max roach style that's come up several times is the game where you faced mutalisk play. By the time you were hit with a sizable roach force, your army had grown considerably larger than it was when a Stephano esq. max would hit you. We're not trying to punch holes in your strategy or ridicule you, we're trying to understand your reasoning and see an example of what you are trying to teach us. The replay on condemned ridge that I have attached is a good example of a stephano-esque build, although he used a lot of hydras instead of roaches. It accomplished roughly the same thing, however, and even made me lose my mothership (which I could have saved). Keep in mind that if he has only roaches your void ray and mothership will have free reign. If you are feeling insecure against mass roach timings (which I don't), you can always add one extra void ray. I'm a bit thin on recent, relevant replays but I can probably find a few more. I'll give the condemned ridge replay another look. Thanks! I know some zergs I can get to try the Max roach deal against me and I'll use your build the best I can and comeback with any good replays [i.e. both me and my opponent play solidly] I can generate.
If you can get me replays where you execute this build and the necessary defense properly and lose against a properly executed stephano-esque timing I shall reconsider my opinion, obviously.
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Maybe we should have some non-biased and high-level people try this out. OP seems to have a response to every criticism, so all that really needs to be done is have some unbiased people try it out and see if it works in practice.
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On July 14 2012 05:26 the p00n wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2012 05:16 Tombomb wrote:On July 14 2012 05:12 the p00n wrote:On July 14 2012 04:53 Tombomb wrote:On July 14 2012 04:48 the p00n wrote:On July 14 2012 04:43 Tombomb wrote:
Echoing NoNonsense's skepticism, after reading the guide and watching your replays, I feel that this is a build that's more map specific than compositionally specific. I see it running into issues on maps where multi-pronged aggression excel, but excelling on maps where the 2nd and 3rd bases can be defended with small well positioned groups of units and good wall offs.
That being said, perhaps an adjustment on maps such as cloud kingdom or daybreak that have several available attack paths could be building an extra sentry or 2 and using gateways to sim-city bases?
Just a suggestion. Thanks for the write-up. It seems impossible, but I can verify from own experience that it actually is holdable with this build. There's not much else to say. What you think is not holdable with this build due to the low amount of units, actually is holdable. Can you include a replay? The only replay we have of you holding anything remotely similar to the max roach style that's come up several times is the game where you faced mutalisk play. By the time you were hit with a sizable roach force, your army had grown considerably larger than it was when a Stephano esq. max would hit you. We're not trying to punch holes in your strategy or ridicule you, we're trying to understand your reasoning and see an example of what you are trying to teach us. The replay on condemned ridge that I have attached is a good example of a stephano-esque build, although he used a lot of hydras instead of roaches. It accomplished roughly the same thing, however, and even made me lose my mothership (which I could have saved). Keep in mind that if he has only roaches your void ray and mothership will have free reign. If you are feeling insecure against mass roach timings (which I don't), you can always add one extra void ray. I'm a bit thin on recent, relevant replays but I can probably find a few more. I'll give the condemned ridge replay another look. Thanks! I know some zergs I can get to try the Max roach deal against me and I'll use your build the best I can and comeback with any good replays [i.e. both me and my opponent play solidly] I can generate. If you can get me replays where you execute this build and the necessary defense properly and lose against a properly executed stephano-esque timing I shall reconsider my opinion, obviously.
Haha I'm glad you're open to constructive criticism, but I'm mostly going to try and help you out and get you some replays that show how to respond with this build to heavy roach play. We'll see what comes of it.
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Am I totally wrong in thinking that roach/hydra/ling timing would beat this?
Whenever I see a toss go stargate, I quickly take a 4th, then proceed to go hydra ling while continuously scouting for the colossus production. If I don't see it, I just mass a crap ton of hydras and lings...and a-move and reinforced with roach/ling.
As a zerg, if I see you're 2 basing, I will mount an attack on you somehow or some way off 3 or 4 bases because I figure you're up to no good and I can't sit around and let you get some op army off 2 bases...
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On July 14 2012 06:06 Amaterasu1234 wrote:
Am I totally wrong in thinking that roach/hydra/ling timing would beat this?
Whenever I see a toss go stargate, I quickly take a 4th, then proceed to go hydra ling while continuously scouting for the colossus production. If I don't see it, I just mass a crap ton of hydras and lings...and a-move and reinforced with roach/ling.
As a zerg, if I see you're 2 basing, I will mount an attack on you somehow or some way off 3 or 4 bases because I figure you're up to no good and I can't sit around and let you get some op army off 2 bases...
replayfu.com/download/Hh7dCq
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Hi poon, quick question:
I could see an infested terran timing on the third doing fairly well against this. When/if you scout it how do you deal with it? Your obs (i think) wont be out in time for you to deal with their burrowing away and I could see follow up roach/infestor drops catz style doing pretty well to bug your econ out before you can really get rolling.
Of course this is all theorycraft, I'm mostly interested in if you've met infested terran timings on the third/natural walls on ladder and how you dealt with them.
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On July 14 2012 06:23 MagicalGirl wrote:
Hi poon, quick question:
I could see an infested terran timing on the third doing fairly well against this. When/if you scout it how do you deal with it? Your obs (i think) wont be out in time for you to deal with their burrowing away and I could see follow up roach/infestor drops catz style doing pretty well to bug your econ out before you can really get rolling.
Of course this is all theorycraft, I'm mostly interested in if you've met infested terran timings on the third/natural walls on ladder and how you dealt with them.
Hey, I think we played a PvP yesterday. Sorry for the BM, but I have a 10% winrate in PvP and that was my 5th one in a row  (comes with having a 90+% winrate in PvZ, another match-up has to suffer).
Infested terran timings from 2base (the old 'destiny style') are not counterable by following the conventional build. Your way of getting by with virtually no units is by 1. abusing the zerg's lack of anti air early-game and 2. forcefields/sim-city. Mass infested terrans obviously deal very well with both these things.
If you scout 2-base zerg, you should simply stay on 2 bases as well and add extra cannons. You know when he grabs a 3rd base, because you have a phoenix on the map. The conventional destiny style is to double expand after doing the infested terran timing (or getting out the initial infestors). At this point you can expand as well, and the zealots + archons will deal with any kind of infested terran/ling attack due to the high splash and damage (and zealots being naturally good against zerglings). If you are really worried about infestors, you can leave one ht at the start and have it build up energy, so it can pop 4 infestors without really cutting into your archon count.
If he is doing the same thing but off 3 bases you can actually just follow the exact same build as outlined in the OP.
You are right about the obs not being out in time, but this is usually no problem due to cannons at your natural and third.
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What's the plan against someone who goes 3 base into Hydra/Ling or Muta, without making useless units or wasting anything beforehand?
I say this, because in the replays it looked like you had no reliable scouting information and took a third off a mothership and a void ray. Your opponent took lair very late, which is why the hydra attack hit later than it normally would and you managed to defend it at that point.
I suppose that's some evidence that at the least this build would require a zerg to hit good timings (which is true of all greedy mothership turtle builds like this) to kill you in the short window where you have absolutely no defense. They either have that option, or go into the late game with Roach/Infestor, which is also strong against this particular composition.
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i don't see how zealot archon is going to fight a late game zerg army with brood infestor and a decent spread. you are relying on getting god vortexes and if that doesn't happen you lose i feel. Archon zealot has its place though .
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Really need to try this out cause from my experiences Archon zealot get owned by Roach infestor like really hard. What do you do about upgrades do you double forge? single?
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I only have one question? Which GSL season did you win? I mean, since this build is sooooo good, and you are being very defensive to anybody who tries to question it, then it must be unstoppable. I don't see why you aren't the best player in the world. Are you smurfing down in Masters? Because it seems to me you should be #1 GM.
OR
This build is only good for a cheap win here and there and it's not the second coming of Jesus you make it out to be.
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On July 14 2012 07:11 SigmaoctanusIV wrote:
Really need to try this out cause from my experiences Archon zealot get owned by Roach infestor like really hard. What do you do about upgrades do you double forge? single?
Just one forge, you only really need the attack upgrades. I research shield after +3 attack but that's usually when the game ends.
On July 14 2012 07:18 sfdrew wrote:
I only have one question? Which GSL season did you win? I mean, since this build is sooooo good, and you are being very defensive to anybody who tries to question it, then it must be unstoppable. I don't see why you aren't the best player in the world. Are you smurfing down in Masters? Because it seems to me you should be #1 GM.
OR
This build is only good for a cheap win here and there and it's not the second coming of Jesus you make it out to be.
It only works in PvZ and there are 2 other match-ups as well. My PvP is atrocious.
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On July 14 2012 07:18 sfdrew wrote:
I only have one question? Which GSL season did you win? I mean, since this build is sooooo good, and you are being very defensive to anybody who tries to question it, then it must be unstoppable. I don't see why you aren't the best player in the world. Are you smurfing down in Masters? Because it seems to me you should be #1 GM.
OR
This build is only good for a cheap win here and there and it's not the second coming of Jesus you make it out to be.
Did you see his winrates in other MU... did you look at the replay... Pointless to you are they ?
OP: I kinda doubted the build at first like everybody. I've looked at the replay and it does seems really good.
I will try it and maybe share some replay for you. I kinda dont like stephano style against this build... I mean if he spread you out like on... Daybreak. You can put a lot of cannon and mothership but and voidray on the other side but if he remax non stop... you'll run out of cannon wouldnt you ?
I'll wait for others to provide replay or i'll try it myself to see it... Like a lot of people I doubt the build but since you say you hold it easily... I will try it.
Thx a lot for your time writting the build, we need more people like you in the community.
and thx for the language it was kinda funny reading it 
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i dont think its that big of a deal that hes beating GM players with this build
however i believe the most important point of this thread is not that he wins, but that 2base mothership expand seems to not only be safe but gets your third up at a nice time even against stephano style aggression because 1) he needs hydras to stop the voidray/pheonix from killing overseers and 2) if he gets hydras his push is slower/weaker and 3) if he has no hydras, he cant kill cloaked units
if 2base mothership expand can get your third up at a nice time, and compete with the zerg econimcally, then id say its a hell of a nice strategy. If you lose the game at a later time it doesnt mean the build is bad it just means your enemy was better than you. Ive always thought it could be possible to make a 2base mothership expand that uses the cloaking field to protect the third and this seems to do it.
I think the reason this is so powerful is because of the cloaking field allowing that third to be safe against stephano roaches and if u scout the early roach warren you can just keep making voidrays and 4-5 voidrays+mothership come on zerg needs something higher tech to survive
my only suggestions for this playstyle is i highly highly suggest you keep getting +air upgrades and use your single stargate to keep making 1 voidray a minute after the third goes up.
Think about it. lets say from 13 minutes to 27 minutes, that 1 stargate while have made 14 voidrays. Just sayin the damage output of 14 voidrays with +ups is absolutely insane. just make sure to spread against fungal and they are a damn powerful heavy assault force for your archon/zealot to work with. then if you get a 5th base put on 2 more stargates for some +3 carriers. archon/voidray/storm/carrier/mothership is like the unbeatable god army against zerg
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EPT
