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[G] short guide on easy wins in PvZ - Page 11
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BoBiNoU
France181 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=271126 | ||
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MilesTeg
France1271 Posts
On July 17 2012 09:37 the p00n wrote: I love you too bro. I don't think that the majority of the posters are trying to hate on the build just for the sake of hating on it, I think most of them have legitimate concerns but are simply misinformed. No one hates your build, it's just that better players than you don't think it's very good. You will NOT be able to take a 3rd against a well executed Stephano all-in, no matter how much you want it to be true. It's hilarious how defensive you are. If you can't take the criticism, just don't make stupid claims and people will appreciate your build for what it is (a fun unconventional build that can catch an opponent off guard). | ||
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Vanadiel
France961 Posts
Anyways, I'm not saying it's either a bad strat or a good one, but consider that this style could be weak to certain timings is a good way to improve it. - My first concern is the Dimaga style he shown at dreamhack : he goes for fast 3 hatch, then takes gaz earlier than the classic 3 hatch build and goes for ling speed banneling instead of roach. I'm not sure when it hit but it might be something to consider, you just cannot hold bust like this without sentry and you can't rely on the feeling that he will go to the standard BO just because he took a third hatch at the usual timing. The other problem I can see is that all your build rely on securing the third, and defend all kind of timing on it. - About the roach max pressure. You say that you can hold your third, and this seems way harder than you say. If you don't try to delay zerg expansion with pylon block and so on, a roach max pressure can actually hit you at 11', which also means that he can attack you at 150 supply and 40 roach on your third at 10'30. Can you really take and defend your third? Because if you can't secure it you're gonna have a hard time just to get out of your base, and mothership archon on 2 base, not really scary. To me, it seems all your build rely on the fact that you could defend your third with one good vortex and that sound gimmicky. Last but not least, you said that infestor/BL is weaker than mothership archon. That's just a wrong statement, if you consider two player with perfect unit control BL/infestor should always wins. | ||
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SSVnormandy
France392 Posts
you just cannot hold bust like this without sentry and you can't rely on the feeling that he will go to the standard BO just because he took a third hatch at the usual timing. Stargate opening gives you all the tools u need to proper scout the z and see what is coming up ! So this is no feeling at all ! Assuming that the build is not suited against baneling, the early scout by stargate units allows u to adapt ur strategy or to initiate a switch ! if you don't try to delay zerg expansion with pylon block and so on, a roach max pressure can actually hit you at 11', which also means that he can attack you at 150 supply and 40 roach on your third at 10'30 I don't see why u couldn't delay hatch with this build its like all standard ffe at the begining ! | ||
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Nyast
Belgium554 Posts
On July 17 2012 19:55 Vanadiel wrote: "Yeah, every thing Zerg do against this sucks unless muta, meh" I don't think mutas is a proper answer to this build. Think about it: you're going for fast archons from templars with a mothership. If you see incoming mutas, you already have all the tech to counter mutas ( except blink ), you're in good shape eco wise ( he can't deny your third if he goes straight to mutas ), there's the fear of a vortex ( meaning he must be cautious when he harass, else he'd lose all his mutas to a single archon toilet ), you've got a stargate, and since the build relies on so many zealots, you can trade them for more cannons to hold any harass. In fact, thinking about it, I consider this build to be a hard counter to mutas. On July 17 2012 19:55 Vanadiel wrote: - My first concern is the Dimaga style he shown at dreamhack : he goes for fast 3 hatch, then takes gaz earlier than the classic 3 hatch build and goes for ling speed banneling instead of roach. I don't really see how this has anything to do with the build. Yeah, it's a chargelots/archon build, but nothing says you can't make a sentry or two early game, especially if you scout something suspicious ( lings speed, low saturation, etc.. ). If you're speaking of bannelings in the mid game as the standard compo, well you have to adapt your own, hold with sentries, sim-city your expos, make a lot of cannons, and try to get as many archons as you can. Archons/templars do really well against lings + bans.. On July 17 2012 19:55 Vanadiel wrote: - About the roach max pressure. You say that you can hold your third, and this seems way harder than you say. If you don't try to delay zerg expansion with pylon block and so on, a roach max pressure can actually hit you at 11', which also means that he can attack you at 150 supply and 40 roach on your third at 10'30. Can you really take and defend your third? Because if you can't secure it you're gonna have a hard time just to get out of your base, and mothership archon on 2 base, not really scary. To me, it seems all your build rely on the fact that you could defend your third with one good vortex and that sound gimmicky. If Zerg goes for a roaches timing, you'll have a mothership and voidray + phoenix to snippe overseers, so even without vortex he's bound to lose a lot of roaches each time he attacks. You'll be forced to cancel your third nexus, that's a given, but I don't think it's as dramatic as you think. Zerg's gonna lose a third of his army each time to delay your expo by 30s, and if he stops attacking for more than 30s, you'll have a pylon + basic sim city up, which will make it even harder for him to force a cancel. IMO if there's a weakness in this build, it's got to do with infestors. For ex, I'd like to see how it fares against a speedlings 2/2 + infestors timing, throwing fungals and infested terrans in the mix at like around 14-15'. | ||
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Vanadiel
France961 Posts
On July 17 2012 20:27 SSVnormandy wrote: Stargate opening gives you all the tools u need to proper scout the z and see what is coming up ! So this is no feeling at all ! Assuming that the build is not suited against baneling, the early scout by stargate units allows u to adapt ur strategy or to initiate a switch ! I don't see why u couldn't delay hatch with this build its like all standard ffe at the begining ! Not saying he can't, but my guess (maybe wrong) is that you have to do so because it seems to me that it's critical to delay as moste this roach bust just to be able to defend, therefore it should be said in the guide as part of the strategy. Some 2 base all in like sentry immortel also requires that you delay at most zerg second base even by putting 2 pylons in the second base and the third, some other rely on very crazy quick warpgate so you can't really invest 100 or 200 minerals in pylon. About the banneling bust in the dimaga style, it's just that I'm not sure about when it hit, since your void ray don't rush directly to the main to the scout but mainly to apply light pressure and kill overlord, I'm not that certain that you can scout it in times since he waits for Phoenix to scout. | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
-Zerg has at least 160 supply by 11:00 (with nearly perfect macro, this can be 200, but we'll give it some slack and require that they're merely macroing well). -Zerg begins to attack by 11:30 or earlier. -Zerg doesn't do anything clearly awful in terms of control like getting his whole army in a single vortex or standing his units still or not splitting his forces at all. Ideally, we'd want to see a game where Zerg controls well, including splitting forces threatening both the third and the natural, getting as few units caught in vortex as possible, and kiting effectively while continuing to produce reinforcements, but we'll lower our replay standards to just competent control. If Zerg gets an infestation pit, a hydra den, a spire, or drops before attacking, don't pick that replay. That 3-base roach timing was watered down by extra tech. | ||
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Daimai
Sweden762 Posts
On July 18 2012 00:23 kcdc wrote: p00n, I think that if you're going to claim that you can hold a third against Stephano style roaches, you should post a few replays of you doing so. Right now, your guide has none which is a big problem for its credibility. Requirements for a qualifying replay: -Zerg has at least 160 supply by 11:00 (with nearly perfect macro, this can be 200, but we'll give it some slack and require that they're merely macroing well). -Zerg begins to attack by 11:30 or earlier. -Zerg doesn't do anything clearly awful in terms of control like getting his whole army in a single vortex or standing his units still or not splitting his forces at all. Ideally, we'd want to see a game where Zerg controls well, including splitting forces threatening both the third and the natural, getting as few units caught in vortex as possible, and kiting effectively while continuing to produce reinforcements, but we'll lower our replay standards to just competent control. If Zerg gets an infestation pit, a hydra den, a spire, or drops before attacking, don't pick that replay. That 3-base roach timing was watered down by extra tech. I agree with this, having problems with Stephano-pushes aswell. A few replays would be good so that we could deal with them, since Stephano-roaching is the only thing I die to with this build, rest just get owned. My problem is getting sizeable army + mothership + archons at 10-11 min when roach attack hits. | ||
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orBitual
United States96 Posts
I don't think mutas is a proper answer to this build. Think about it: you're going for fast archons from templars with a mothership. If you see incoming mutas, you already have all the tech to counter mutas ( except blink ), you're in good shape eco wise ( he can't deny your third if he goes straight to mutas ), there's the fear of a vortex ( meaning he must be cautious when he harass, else he'd lose all his mutas to a single archon toilet ), you've got a stargate, and since the build relies on so many zealots, you can trade them for more cannons to hold any harass. In fact, thinking about it, I consider this build to be a hard counter to mutas. Mutas don't die to an archon toilet. They spread too quickly, and you take some damage but you just run them away when the toilet pops. All mothership builds like this have the same weakness in that they can only cover one base, so you can attack which one is not covered, run in your lings etc. And after whatever you have or have not accomplished with your harass, you just don't fight his army and base race just like any other muta/ling build. | ||
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No_eL
Chile1438 Posts
On July 18 2012 01:11 orBitual wrote: Mutas don't die to an archon toilet. They spread too quickly, and you take some damage but you just run them away when the toilet pops. All mothership builds like this have the same weakness in that they can only cover one base, so you can attack which one is not covered, run in your lings etc. And after whatever you have or have not accomplished with your harass, you just don't fight his army and base race just like any other muta/ling build. If you scout mutas you can sit your archoons near the cannons of the mineral lines, vortex + mass archoon its too dangerous for a Zerg, i think mutas its not a proper respose, sounds more like gambling. Mass corruptor is better to snipe the mothership than a mass of light/weak units that die in a few shoots of the mighty energy guys. I have more doubts about Kcdc standings about a nice executed stephano roaches, the timming and the macro needed to hold it seems harder. I have played many games against it, and the builds look pretty cool, because u can use forcefield and vortex to split mass roach army, and destroy the lethal timming, but again, in GM level all change. Im sure about the safety of this build in diamond-low master level at least. | ||
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CynicalToss
United Kingdom15 Posts
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Yokoblue
Canada594 Posts
Almost all zerg don't react well to that build though... I dont like the fact that we stay that passive... I thing it needs some Warpprism harass or something | ||
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AxonHD
United States31 Posts
Using that build and having the right answer and micro, I have won my last 9 PvZ in Mid Masters. Almost all zerg don't react well to that build though... I dont like the fact that we stay that passive... I thing it needs some Warpprism harass or something I've actually begun getting out 2 warp prisms for harrassment in the late game. Its important to not get supply capped by zealots, you want to have as many archons as possible and using warp prisms and multipronged attacks once the zerg gets to the late game works great, bc late game zerg is so immobile. | ||
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Drowsy
United States4876 Posts
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frostalgia
United States178 Posts
Going for any more than 1-2 carriers though might not be a good idea, as it's only useful to protect you from rushes, not as much with pushes. It's better to make him think you're going mass carrier with your mothership to force corruptors, when in reality you will be getting more archons. | ||
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ineversmile
United States583 Posts
On July 18 2012 15:59 frostalgia wrote: I love the idea behind this build, but it should be tweaked based on the map/what you scout the zerg going for. I'd almost always favor getting a quick carrier out before the mothership, if you feel you are going to need to defend against the Stephano-roach rush or mutas. If the Zerg keeps expoing, skip the carrier.. but having one carrier along with 1 phoenix (3 for muta), a voidray, and whatever archons/cannons you might have up, should help defend vs. roaches/mutas. If anything, it should scare them away for the time being, which is exactly when you should go for mothership. Going for any more than 1-2 carriers though might not be a good idea, as it's only useful to protect you from rushes, not as much with pushes. It's better to make him think you're going mass carrier with your mothership to force corruptors, when in reality you will be getting more archons. The whole point of the quick mothership is to hold a third base with cloak initially, then with vortexes (or the threat of them) later on as you finish powering up and start massing units. So if you invest into one carrier, you are not going to hold a third base with this build. And if you're seriously suggesting one carrier at that weak point in the protoss's game, I think you're completely missing the point of why you tech the Fleet Beacon. Mothership is insane with chargelots and archons; you want it out in time to hold off maxed ground armies with your mostly melee composition. | ||
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xbehemoth
Germany10 Posts
1. He did go mutas and lings. This is relatively okay even if he splits up his army but it's incredibly annoying to deal with. 2. He goes roach/ling max and expands behind it. No chance, you just have not enough units to defend if he splits. As soon as he sees the MS he will build corruptors and snipe it, I can't save it. The only way this build worked out for me is against passive zergs. If a zerg is continuosly attacking, you have no chance to defend it at 2-3 fronts. I'm testing and increasing amount of static defenses and a canon rush into DT opening to put pressure on the zerg and distract him but it's hard... | ||
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Lappen.464
Germany42 Posts
 Really effective build most of the time and btw. very arrogant and non objective poster of this build in my opinion. When your enemy figures out and makes an early agression.... NOOOO, my build is perfect, u cant lose with it :D | ||
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frostalgia
United States178 Posts
On July 18 2012 16:10 ineversmile wrote: The whole point of the quick mothership is to hold a third base with cloak initially, then with vortexes (or the threat of them) later on as you finish powering up and start massing units. So if you invest into one carrier, you are not going to hold a third base with this build. And if you're seriously suggesting one carrier at that weak point in the protoss's game, I think you're completely missing the point of why you tech the Fleet Beacon. Mothership is insane with chargelots and archons; you want it out in time to hold off maxed ground armies with your mostly melee composition. I get your point.. but what about when zerg has an overseer with their max push? The mothership becomes useless until it gets vortex, and you still lose your third. I suppose it might be quicker to get another void instead vs roach/ling max, but if I can get a carrier out before they hit it should push them back, or at least kill more off. It's worth considering that a carrier can defend a wider area easier as long as it's protected by stalkers/cannons/phoenix. This is why I'd even get one quick if I scout mutas, if I feel I can protect it with the rest of my army. I'd only consider a carrier if I was already going for a mothership, and if I scout incoming pressure that I'll need to deal with before the mothership gets 100 energy. Right after the carrier I'd still get mothership/archons, so it's only slightly delayed. It's just something else to consider for anyone who is trying this build, but can't get the mothership/charge/archon tech up in time, or can't cover enough ground to deal with roach/ling max or muta pressure. The carrier will also provide one more air target later for any corruptors they make, which means your mothership might live longer, or that you'll kill more corruptors with archon splash since they group up while focus firing. | ||
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Daimai
Sweden762 Posts
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