|
On July 17 2012 07:52 achristes wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 03:00 Belial88 wrote:On July 17 2012 02:21 achristes wrote:On July 14 2012 05:18 Belial88 wrote:
I got another easy win for you:
- 9 Pylon, chrono only probes
- 13 Forge
- 17 3x Pylons at ramp = gg
Only way for Zerg to beat it, besides patrolling the ramp (which you can still glitch out if they are using patrol command, or if you bring 2 probes), is to 6-10 pool, in which case you either cannon your main or block the ramp, win.
win win scenario. I dont know why Toss isn't 100% on ladder.
On a side note, good guide. Seems like most of the Toss I play on ladder. They beat me too. Drone drill, toss lose ezpz. Drone drilling does not work on most spawns on most maps, and Toss can just reinforce the wall. Zerg lose ezpz... I've actually gone and tested this multiple times though. Drone drilling may break through a pylon, but it won't break through a warping in gateway behind it before the cannon finishes. You tried using mineral patches outside your nat? When you spawn north on daybreak, you can use the closest patch on your 3rd to make the trick work, idk about other maps tho. Save camera location helps.
Yes, of course I have.... On many maps and spawns, you cannot use the minerals outside your natural, you have to find a mineral patch somewhere far away, in which case you need to use shift+spam right click, on a mineral patch on the opposite side of the map, and time it right. And on even more maps and spawn locations, there is simply no mineral patch on the entire map that will work.
You can try drone drilling, but as I said, against a competent Toss, they will reinforce with pylons and gateways. And in the rare chance that you can actually drone drill this second wall, it will not matter, because by the time you break the reinforcing wall, the 2 cannons are up, you have not mined at all while Toss has been mining the entire time, and you won't be taking your natural for some time, while Toss will.
I have tested this many times, with many people. If someone gets a ramp block with you, you lose (assuming they are competent). The only way to beat a ramp block is simply patrol a drone at the bottom of the ramp (which is why I always pull 2 drones to follow the probe at 16 and micro them to prevent any sort of ramp blocks, as well as try to take my hatch).
If you want to test it with me, Belial.869@NA. But I've tested this many times, I promise you. Drone drilling is worthless.
|
On July 19 2012 06:16 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 07:52 achristes wrote:On July 17 2012 03:00 Belial88 wrote:On July 17 2012 02:21 achristes wrote:On July 14 2012 05:18 Belial88 wrote:
I got another easy win for you:
- 9 Pylon, chrono only probes
- 13 Forge
- 17 3x Pylons at ramp = gg
Only way for Zerg to beat it, besides patrolling the ramp (which you can still glitch out if they are using patrol command, or if you bring 2 probes), is to 6-10 pool, in which case you either cannon your main or block the ramp, win.
win win scenario. I dont know why Toss isn't 100% on ladder.
On a side note, good guide. Seems like most of the Toss I play on ladder. They beat me too. Drone drill, toss lose ezpz. Drone drilling does not work on most spawns on most maps, and Toss can just reinforce the wall. Zerg lose ezpz... I've actually gone and tested this multiple times though. Drone drilling may break through a pylon, but it won't break through a warping in gateway behind it before the cannon finishes. You tried using mineral patches outside your nat? When you spawn north on daybreak, you can use the closest patch on your 3rd to make the trick work, idk about other maps tho. Save camera location helps. Yes, of course I have.... On many maps and spawns, you cannot use the minerals outside your natural, you have to find a mineral patch somewhere far away, in which case you need to use shift+spam right click, on a mineral patch on the opposite side of the map, and time it right. And on even more maps and spawn locations, there is simply no mineral patch on the entire map that will work.You can try drone drilling, but as I said, against a competent Toss, they will reinforce with pylons and gateways. And in the rare chance that you can actually drone drill this second wall, it will not matter, because by the time you break the reinforcing wall, the 2 cannons are up, you have not mined at all while Toss has been mining the entire time, and you won't be taking your natural for some time, while Toss will. I have tested this many times, with many people. If someone gets a ramp block with you, you lose (assuming they are competent). The only way to beat a ramp block is simply patrol a drone at the bottom of the ramp (which is why I always pull 2 drones to follow the probe at 16 and micro them to prevent any sort of ramp blocks, as well as try to take my hatch). If you want to test it with me, Belial.869@NA. But I've tested this many times, I promise you. Drone drilling is worthless.
Which ones?
I was pretty sure that drone-drill is autowin vs this kind of 3pylon block if you do it right, but I never actually tried practise vs a zerg to see how effective it is in reality.
|
No, the drone drill is not an autowin vs 3 pylon block. I've made literally over 2 dozen posts saying that, and it says so in my guides as well... (both my zvt and zvp guide)....
You can maybe drone drill, but Toss only spent 300 minerals to pylon block while Zerg loses 90-100% mining for a minute or two, which is more costly. Then, even if you do break out, which, by the way, you can't do on many maps and spawn locations (9'clock metalopolis comes to mind, but there are a lot more, i think bottom right on shakuras too, i recall more on some of the old maps, like typhon peaks, but im sure the new maps you will have just as much trouble too), and even if it's possible on your map, you have to hope it's possible on your spawn location, and many times you can't drill to your natural, you have to use some very, very far off mineral field all away across the map on some random patch so you have to blindly drone drill, but even if the stars align and you get a spawn on a map where you can drill, conveniently or not, it doesn't matter, because all Toss has to do is throw down a reinforcing pylon/gateway.
And, hoping the stars align again, and you can drone drill the reinforcing pylons/gateway, it doesn't matter, because that cannon has finished and is shooting your drones and you can only make lings 2 by 2, maybe 6 if you pooled larva, doesn't matter, it's not enough, and if you don't straight up lose now, you will definitely be too far behind to play the game.
There's a reason why every tournament long ago implemented neutral depots. it's pretty abusive.
Trust me, I have practiced this MANY times, and I have been messaged MANY times by people saying "oh no look drone drill works" and prove them wrong with bronze level protoss cannon rushing skills. I assure you, I have tested this many more times than you have. And all I got was a very frustrating conclusion that there is no way to win if you get ramp blocked. Such a waste of time, i tried so long to get an answer for it, even went 11 pool for like a year because of it thinking 11 pool would get lings out in time to stop it (it doesnt).
|
On July 19 2012 06:28 Belial88 wrote:
No, the drone drill is not an autowin vs 3 pylon block. I've made literally over 2 dozen posts saying that, and it says so in my guides as well... (both my zvt and zvp guide)....
You can maybe drone drill, but Toss only spent 300 minerals to pylon block while Zerg loses 90-100% mining for a minute or two, which is more costly. Then, even if you do break out, which, by the way, you can't do on many maps and spawn locations (9'clock metalopolis comes to mind, but there are a lot more, i think bottom right on shakuras too, i recall more on some of the old maps, like typhon peaks, but im sure the new maps you will have just as much trouble too), and even if it's possible on your map, you have to hope it's possible on your spawn location, and many times you can't drill to your natural, you have to use some very, very far off mineral field all away across the map on some random patch so you have to blindly drone drill, but even if the stars align and you get a spawn on a map where you can drill, conveniently or not, it doesn't matter, because all Toss has to do is throw down a reinforcing pylon/gateway.
And, hoping the stars align again, and you can drone drill the reinforcing pylons/gateway, it doesn't matter, because that cannon has finished and is shooting your drones and you can only make lings 2 by 2, maybe 6 if you pooled larva, doesn't matter, it's not enough, and if you don't straight up lose now, you will definitely be too far behind to play the game.
There's a reason why every tournament long ago implemented neutral depots. it's pretty abusive.
Trust me, I have practiced this MANY times, and I have been messaged MANY times by people saying "oh no look drone drill works" and prove them wrong with bronze level protoss cannon rushing skills. I assure you, I have tested this many more times than you have. And all I got was a very frustrating conclusion that there is no way to win if you get ramp blocked. Such a waste of time, i tried so long to get an answer for it, even went 11 pool for like a year because of it thinking 11 pool would get lings out in time to stop it (it doesnt). I highly disagree with the bolded part. Not only will the protoss lose those 300 minerals but also delay his nexus by that amount as well. this is about 20-30 secs delay unless I'm misstaken which easily makes up for the fact that you've lost mining time. If you brake his wall with drone drill, you will be ahead.
And if it takes you 1 minute to brake the wall you are either doing it wrong or the protoss have invested far more than 300 minerals in the block.
|
And Zerg's third is delayed, and he's not mining essentially 300 minerals...
16 drones x 40 per minute = 640 minerals... A lot more than the 300 spent on 3 pylons.
If you break his wall with a drone drill, the Toss will simply add a gateway/pylon reinforcement behind it and you can't break it in time and kill the cannon before it warps in and does it's damage (by either forcing Zerg to back off, or killing enough drones to well make up for it, not to mention further denying mining, also if you made a 2nd cannon).
On paper you could possibly argue "well zerg just doesnt take his natural and doesnt care!" but zerg NEEDS their natural. A 1 base zerg contained is just a dead zerg, and it'll be pretty obvious what he's up to (roach or nydus).
I'd argue that the 300 mineral pylon wall-off is worth it if zerg tries to drone drill (hell, it's much worth forcing Zerg to be on 1 base even if he doesnt react to the wall-off at all and just does some 1 base strat) alone, but whatever, if you want to argue that it doesnt work out, that's fine.
I'm simply saying drone drilling is not effective. it doesn't work. Toss can reinforce the wall, you lose. I'd be more than willing to test it, again, with you. Belial.869@na
by the way this has just been discussed ad nauseum in this forum already...
|
Pls dont derail thread with pointless pylon block discussions.
|
On July 19 2012 07:34 Trusty wrote:
Pls dont derail thread with pointless pylon block discussions.
I don't mind some off-topic discussion as long as it doesn't get out of hand or totally sucks up all the attention. It bumps my thread (more publicity) and keeps the forum clean from another discussion thread. If you have any questions or input about the build you can just post in between them, I still read all the replies.
|
Bellial is right. Never drone drill unless you can do it perfectly and it's an early pylon block (not a 17 food pylon block), even then it's risky cause protoss might be careful and have stopped probe production to afford gate + pylon.
There are ways to play against a 3 pylon block without being too far behind but a failed drone-drill = immediate GG.
|
On July 19 2012 07:34 Trusty wrote:
Pls dont derail thread with pointless pylon block discussions.
Sorry, I'll stop (i got the last word, so I guess that's unfair, but maybe reply in the thread that talks about how to do the 3 pylon block, in my guide http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=320038, or just pm me and we can actually test it and ill prove it to you since just talking about it wont change anyone's mind.)
|
On July 19 2012 07:28 Belial88 wrote:
And Zerg's third is delayed, and he's not mining essentially 300 minerals...
16 drones x 40 per minute = 640 minerals... A lot more than the 300 spent on 3 pylons.
If you break his wall with a drone drill, the Toss will simply add a gateway/pylon reinforcement behind it and you can't break it in time and kill the cannon before it warps in and does it's damage (by either forcing Zerg to back off, or killing enough drones to well make up for it, not to mention further denying mining, also if you made a 2nd cannon).
On paper you could possibly argue "well zerg just doesnt take his natural and doesnt care!" but zerg NEEDS their natural. A 1 base zerg contained is just a dead zerg, and it'll be pretty obvious what he's up to (roach or nydus).
I'd argue that the 300 mineral pylon wall-off is worth it if zerg tries to drone drill (hell, it's much worth forcing Zerg to be on 1 base even if he doesnt react to the wall-off at all and just does some 1 base strat) alone, but whatever, if you want to argue that it doesnt work out, that's fine.
I'm simply saying drone drilling is not effective. it doesn't work. Toss can reinforce the wall, you lose. I'd be more than willing to test it, again, with you. Belial.869@na
by the way this has just been discussed ad nauseum in this forum already... The third is indeed delayed, but not relative to the nexus which is what matters.
640>300. But like I said before, the protoss hardly invests only 300 mineral in this. He is delaying his nexus by ALOT. Also, if protoss reinforces the wall you can afford to lose sooo many drones if you do brake the wall. And assuming that he didn't cut probes really early, his reinforcing buildings will be at low hp once you brakes down the first layer of pylons
I do this strat from time to time and if I succed in getting my pylon block up, I simply win. This may or may not be because zergs know how to handle the situation, I am not sure. The only time I lose is if zerg has some good drill micro.
EDIT: You guys Ninjad me :S.
|
On July 19 2012 07:37 the p00n wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2012 07:34 Trusty wrote:
Pls dont derail thread with pointless pylon block discussions. I don't mind some off-topic discussion as long as it doesn't get out of hand or totally sucks up all the attention. It bumps my thread (more publicity) and keeps the forum clean from another discussion thread. If you have any questions or input about the build you can just post in between them, I still read all the replies.
p00n, are you going to add replays against Stephano style roach timings?
|
On July 19 2012 10:03 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2012 07:37 the p00n wrote:On July 19 2012 07:34 Trusty wrote:
Pls dont derail thread with pointless pylon block discussions. I don't mind some off-topic discussion as long as it doesn't get out of hand or totally sucks up all the attention. It bumps my thread (more publicity) and keeps the forum clean from another discussion thread. If you have any questions or input about the build you can just post in between them, I still read all the replies. p00n, are you going to add replays against Stephano style roach timings?
I will if I encounter opponents who do it, but a stargate seems to discourage everyone from doing so. I could probably get a zerg to do it to me in customs though.
|
On July 18 2012 23:09 frostalgia wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 16:10 ineversmile wrote:
The whole point of the quick mothership is to hold a third base with cloak initially, then with vortexes (or the threat of them) later on as you finish powering up and start massing units. So if you invest into one carrier, you are not going to hold a third base with this build. And if you're seriously suggesting one carrier at that weak point in the protoss's game, I think you're completely missing the point of why you tech the Fleet Beacon. Mothership is insane with chargelots and archons; you want it out in time to hold off maxed ground armies with your mostly melee composition. I get your point.. but what about when zerg has an overseer with their max push? The mothership becomes useless until it gets vortex, and you still lose your third. I suppose it might be quicker to get another void instead vs roach/ling max, but if I can get a carrier out before they hit it should push them back, or at least kill more off. It's worth considering that a carrier can defend a wider area easier as long as it's protected by stalkers/cannons/phoenix. This is why I'd even get one quick if I scout mutas, if I feel I can protect it with the rest of my army. I'd only consider a carrier if I was already going for a mothership, and if I scout incoming pressure that I'll need to deal with before the mothership gets 100 energy. Right after the carrier I'd still get mothership/archons, so it's only slightly delayed. It's just something else to consider for anyone who is trying this build, but can't get the mothership/charge/archon tech up in time, or can't cover enough ground to deal with roach/ling max or muta pressure. The carrier will also provide one more air target later for any corruptors they make, which means your mothership might live longer, or that you'll kill more corruptors with archon splash since they group up while focus firing.
One carrier won't hold your third base in a million billion years. The DPS helps while sitting on top of cannons, but you're still better off just getting a Mothership and stalling for half a minute while the zerg morphs and moves overseers to his army. That's kind of the point of the Mothership--stalling. The cloak won't solve the problem forever, but it buys time so you can get to 100 energy for a vortex or so cannons can finish or so you can can get another warp-in, or even morph some archons.
If you think about the principle of Sentries forcefielding a ramp to stall against aggression, it's not a permanent solution to the aggression but it helps buy you time to get to that permanent solution, whether it's your warpgates fininishing or an Immortal popping out or whatever. Getting a Mothership to hold a third vs Zerg is a similar concept, just on a bigger scale. I mean, sure, they could get Overseers before the push or as it goes accross the map, just like they could be getting corruptors--but that means it's no longer the Stephano Roach Max and it has completely different (usually later) timings, which often translates to the Mothership having Vortex up in time.
|
What is your rank?
I guess all I can say is... shame on you ^^ lol
|
|
|
On July 20 2012 11:41 the p00n wrote:http://replayfu.com/download/CQdv5dGuy has 55 drones and 4 hatches at 8 mins and floods lings/roaches at me. I mess up dearly, but it is still fairly onesided.
No.. HE messed up dearly, saw a stargate but still continued to make roaches and lings to bust. If he made infestors and took a 4th you would have loss.
|
On July 20 2012 11:41 the p00n wrote:http://replayfu.com/download/CQdv5dGuy has 55 drones and 4 hatches at 8 mins and floods lings/roaches at me. I mess up dearly, but it is still fairly onesided.
This was not really a good example of stephano style roaches at all. He never had more then max 4 mining drones at his third base, meaning he was basically on 2 mining bases. Yeah he had 55 drones, but that is a bit low to begin with, and they were far from optimally spread between the bases. At 10 mins he was 15 ish supply behind what he should have been at minimum doing this. His pressure was just weak.
But, from looking at that I realize that this build should be able to stop stephano style roaches at least on maps where you can only attack from one angle. With the mothership out in time and the void + maybe phoenix in the air to stop overseers it will be hard to break through indeed.
|
On July 20 2012 12:05 phodacbiet wrote:No.. HE messed up dearly, saw a stargate but still continued to make roaches and lings to bust. If he made infestors and took a 4th you would have loss.
I have quite a few replays of me slaughtering anything that is not a mass roach/ling flood (hydras, infestors, ...,), if you've been following the topic at all. Providing a replay of zergs taking a 4th and making infestors would just add another useless replay to the topic.
|
@OP do you pylon block/cannon rush to attempt to force.the zerg to take.a.third base?
|
I suppose my one question is: what if he waits outside your base for you to make you use your vortexes and then re-maxes before you can get to his base?
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
