EPTTheJaKaTaK - Page 10
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Weird
United States832 Posts
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sanddbox_sc2
United States173 Posts
On September 15 2012 07:53 Antylamon wrote: This is so hilariously fitting. Indeed  I got a kick from that when I first read the book. | ||
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Antylamon
United States1981 Posts
On September 15 2012 08:11 Kronen wrote: I lolled too as I actually read the section immediately above the one you posted... excerpted from the "Learning the fundamentals" section: (obviously regarding learning to play chess) "We took on positions of reduced complexity and clear principles. Our first focus was king and pawn against king—just three pieces on the table. Layer by layer we built up my knowledge and my understanding of how to transform axioms into fuel for creative insight….This method of study gave me a feeling for the beautiful subtleties of each chess piece, because in relatively clear-cut positions I could focus on what was essential." Checkmate methinks? The underlying condescending tone of this post pissed me off. I was trying to lift the mood of the conversation. The mood is equally important when compared to the usefulness of the context. However, I rashly and embarrassingly misread the conversation. I read Jak's quote from the post above sandbox's: On September 15 2012 02:56 JaKaTaK wrote: I think you are missing my point. The "only play one build order" method is very boring and "unfun" for many players. The point of TheLevels is to make improving at Sc2 more fun, measurable, and rewarding. Understanding the "Why?" and "How?" questions instead of the "What?" question. And then read: On September 15 2012 07:49 sanddbox_sc2 wrote: Yeah, no. This approach is flawed in many, many ways. My interpretation was that sandbox had a problem with it, then proceeded to respond to some other guy without explaining in ANY way why he had a problem with it. Stupid, I know. Then I saw the link to that webpage, so I clicked it. I didn't bother to read the quote sandbox was REALLY referring to because I thought I had already read it. So I decided to make a joke and lighten up the atmosphere. It was a huge misread of the situation by me, as you can tell, but your slow stab towards the integrity of my post was unnecessary. Don't say it like that, just word it the way you did in the PM. It's not as likely to make someone mad and overreact. Which I might be doing right now, actually... :/ Either way, I just felt like I should clear this up. Welp, I guess that's enough off-topic-ness for another week. | ||
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Castigo
United Kingdom34 Posts
I've been lurking the thread so far, however i feel it's time for me to intervene and say my 2c. I'm not a teenager anymore, nor i do aspire at being a pro player, however i'm a very competitive person who has grown up playing videogames, and being the bronze newbie was always hard to swallow, especially after so many games. I've been bronze/silver since season 1, i've been playing in small burst (periods of 20 games/day for a week or so, then nothing for a month and so on). I never had any real experience on RTS (beside playing sporadically Red Alert as a teenager - where i could just brute force most missions by building lots of stuff - a bit like playing sc2 campaign in casual mode). As soon as sc2 came out - announced as "the most expensive game ever", "the best game ever" from forums etc.., i bought it to try it out. I played all 3 races on ladder, mostly zerg (at the discovery of the 6pool, i was like "there is no way of defending this, why blizzard doesn't nerf it" - this to give you the right impression of how much i understood about the game back then). I knew nothing about sc2, liquipedia wasn't much help with outdated builds and with the lack of a deep "how starcraft works" explaination (which at date i still can't find in there). I remember like yesterday, a suggested cloaked banshee rush - announced @4:00 and my best was like 7:30 and i couldn't understand why, 'till i discovered about recent (back then recent i mean) nerfs for terran. I played mostly zerg, during season 2 a guy called Worm on EU zerg tactics, explained to me the basics of zerg play (i remember telling him "i don't understand how i loose, i make marines and eventually they all die", i managed with his explaination and patience to get out of bronze into silver (mostly 7RR build practicing, rather than macro play like he was trying to teach me). I started understanding the game and getting to know the pro scene, tl, day9, husky, hd youtube casts etc. My game skills were not in par, even following day9 advices, exercise, watching the dailies i did find most appropriate for me tons of times, my skills would not grow. Any advices on the teamliquid channel in game or lurking the forum or asking pro players resulted in the following "Get a build from a pro for every match up, and play more games, if after 1k games you can't do it still, you are hopeless". I guess i was hopeless, after 1300 ladder games (you can say i play random i guess since i played all 3 races on ladder in them 1300 games), i was still floating top bronze/low silver, not understanding how i was losing 50% of my games knowing so much more than my opponent. So, frustrated, i gave up entirely for about 2 seasons, i think my thoughts were more or less "all pro games are the same, pvz is protoss deathball, broodlords, colossi, fungals etc... all zvt is ling/bling/muta and so on and so forth. One evening i was busy doing my own stuff and i found out MLG was running, so i tuned in. I was back on the hook, the next day i was playing sc2 like mad and found back the love for it. This is where i found out about Apollo's tutorials for zerg for working up from bronze. So diligently i wrote down and practiced what Apollo suggested as build orders, mixed with what i knew for the mid/late game and proceeded to ladder and stabilized myself exactly mid silver (which was already an improvement). However once again i did hit a plateau, i couldn't improve again. I watched the videos again, and there i noticed apollo saying something like "we read the game well and win", and i was like "what does that means? How do i do it? Why if i see a protoss not walled in and i go and turn aggressively as fast as i can, i proceed to loose everything i have whilist apollo does that same and wins?" Watching my own replays, i could understand minor mistakes - supply cap here and there, bad injects, didn't scout properly etc. Every game i would be trying to fix them, and fail at it, because my APM was so bad and my brain would clog itself with "what i have to do next" so much that something got behind or forgotten, so i'd ge supply blocked again, or forget to scout properly, or scout and then figure out i'm supply blocked now and i have 800minerals. This is the point of the story where Filter's tutorial came in - after watching them i decided to practice them and play as terran on the ladder a little bit to see if it would improve my game. Mind you all i care about was improving, and getting better, because the frustration of being in a low league, for a competitive person like me was unbearable, i did (nor i still do actually) care too much about my race, i see it more of a tool for improving, rather than a different playstyle. From filter i learnt that in lower leagues, it doesn't matter so much what you do, as long as your macro its good, i also learnt that being driven by your current resources is much more efficient for learning than sticking to a particular build (the whole idea of resource driven build order). I did quite ok, i was hitting the benchmarks, and as the tutorials moved on, i was stuck again, floating too many minerals, loosing alot on the ladders, having too much to do and too little apm to execute. I could read the game and understand it but i just couldn't do it fast enough. The early builds that i could do, were ok, but even if i was hitting the benchmarks i was loosing too much to be gratifying. I guess looking back now, i perhaps rushed thru the videos and builds too fast for what i could handle. Here i decided to go back to zerg, got dropped to bronze and made my way back to silver as zerg macro player, apollo's builds and filter's mechanics helped me in this, but i still had a big unsolved question. How do i improve? Promise myself "i will focus on queen injects next game" didn't work so well, played vs AI was easy, but on ladder, there was so much to do for me to handle it, so i ended up having more or less stagnant gameplans 1 for each matchup but more or less i'd go the same every game. Always skipping infestors, because the microing of them was too attention requiring. I felt totally stuck with no chance of progressing, not because i wasn't putting efforts (i was playing like 20 games/day) but because i didn't understand HOW to improve. I was stuck in a skill plateau, with people from above telling me "play more", and the more i played the more frustrated i would get. Something that always baffled me is when people said "I watch pro players streams, and like that i learn". I watched loads of pro players streams, beside being able to read the game well, i never improved of half apm/decision making because of that, because i did not (and probably still don't) know enough of the mechanics to evaluate correctly what a pro player decision making is like, and because i don't know beforehand what they are going to build when and why, and more often than not, they don't exactly announce it on stream. I was interested into hotkeys, because by looking at pro players on webcams, on streams, and @mlg i couldn't understand how they could play so fast, where was the secret? I'm a typist for work, so speed of typing wasn't the problem, it was "what to press next" the problem. Here is where i came across TheCore, i liked the idea so i started reading about it, and eventually i came across TheJakatak method (thru yegalisk show) , i did tell myself "what do i have to loose trying this method? I tried it all anyway already". The part that interested me most and captivated was the fact that it was teaching complete newbies - worse than me the basics and how to play, what was important and what wasn't and that they were succeeding on ladder, much more than i was. After understanding how the method works (and i must admit that to start with, it's not the easiest to understand - but i already told you Jakatak my feelings about this in the twitch chat, so i won't clog this post on the matter), i tried to apply it to my beloved zerg, it felt for the first time that i was actually understanding, what why when, and what to do next. It removed importance from the ladder all together, suddenly it all clicked together, all it mattered was this magic number of the SQ. When watching the videos my thoughts were "this is stupid, i can do it blindfolded" when trying it - i couldn't. While watching the replays of myself doing it i could plug the holes, and say to myself "This should have been done like that, fix it, pay attention to it the next game" and in the next game i would focus solely on getting a good sq + fixing that ONLY thing. All of a sudden i felt that zerg wasn't the most appropriate choice for this kind of learning, due to the injects and drones or units mechanics, i couldn't get into a rythm of "make workers, make units" repeat with zerg, so i switched to protoss, and from the start i started ironing out obvious mistakes. I started watching Jakatak stream, and interact with Jak and with the others viewers of the stream, all of which are more than happy to help you out, in a polite and clear manner. I know now that if i have a problem in sc2 and i'm stuck on something, there is someone who is better than me that is happy and available to help me, almost instantly, on a daily basis. I am currently on level 1.5 of protoss - even tho i execute a sort of 1.3 because i don't feel ready for 1.5 quite yet. I am playing against golds most of the time, being high silver. I broke the skill roof of the plateau i was in but most important, i learnt how to improve, my skills keeps growing and growing every single game, because i now understand what practice and play more games. I don't care any longer if i loose 50 games in a row, as long as i spend my minerals efficiently, and i watch my own replays much more than before, to understand what i did wrong, and think even when not in game how could i fix this and that, how could have i played better not to get cheesed like this and so on. I felt a little frustrated during the "zealot only level" when i lost games due to the terran having ONE banshee and floating away his buildings with me being so powerless. However i forced myself into improving and trying harder the next time, because my SQ was growing, and i was understanding for the first time in almost 2 years of sc2 how to REALLY play to improver, rather than play for the sake of it. I think that a lot of people on this thread are already high level players, and don't understand-feel the struggle that someone who is not proficient at RTS goes thru to understand how to improve/learn to play. Knowing the units, the counters, at which time the earliest dt rush/banshee rush will hit you, it's not enough knowledge to learn to play. The reason why i think this method is BETTER than "get a build from a pro and practice it" is that it forces you to understand what you are doing, it forces you into decision making rather than be a robot and just practice A build. From 'beating my opponent' my game has shifted now thanks to Jak to "improve my game, by beating my own score and adding difficulties as i go along", i'm not trying to hard counter what my opponent is building anymore, i just play super aggressively and build LOTS of it, while focusing on macroing behind it, because if i build lots of it, even if my opponent builds an hard counter to it, i counter the hardcounter by having more of it, or by forcing my opponent to micro to live, whilist i focus on more important things. I worked out for each MU a good and safe opener, which applies pressure, forcing the opponent into microing while it allows me to focus on what is important for my game instead. For this reasons, i commend you Jakatak, you have my deepest gratitude, and i wish you all the success possible in the sc2 scene. TLDR;This method works great - i would suggest it to ANYONE who is not GM - helped me loads i'm a silver/gold toss player p.s. i apologise if i made some typos/some phrases are badly formulated/obscure. English is not my native language, i'm not feeling too well and it's pretty late at night, but i wanted to express my opinion on the subject edit - typos & holy moly it's a long post! edit 2 - no i'm not a fanboi nor get any kind of benefits from writing this - before some of you come up with stupid comments - the low post count it's because i don't have much to say/add averagely. | ||
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sanddbox_sc2
United States173 Posts
On September 15 2012 09:37 Antylamon wrote: *snip* I feel like I missed something | ||
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Kronen
United States732 Posts
On September 15 2012 09:37 Antylamon wrote: The underlying condescending tone of this post pissed me off. I was trying to lift the mood of the conversation. The mood is equally important when compared to the usefulness of the context. However, I rashly and embarrassingly misread the conversation. I'm sorry for misinterpreting your post. My tone was condescending. I'm just a bit defensive when it comes to this thread, but that's no excuse. I apologize for my behavior. On a side note: I have a friend that I just introduced to SC2 and started him on the Levels. He absolutely loves it and is having a blast! I was worried because he favors himself an intellectual, but he's enjoying the mechanical challenges that this game presents. | ||
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Castigo
United Kingdom34 Posts
Advanced Learning - Master the Fundamentals - Learning the Macro From the Micro - Making Smaller Circles - Numbers to Leave Numbers - Bringing it All Together I think Artosis (or Jinro?) posted in a blog entry (i can't find it for the life of me), which says that pro koreans, when approaching sc2 they cheese their heart out instead of going for a macro game. This fits the Learning the macro from the micro. However what that post (and i feel yours too) does not take into consideration, it's that them players can already macro if they want to, but they decide not to, to learn the controls better. Whilist TheJakatak audience it's people who CAN'T macro. Also it's quite rewarding in the lower leagues to see how you can crush your opponent, by just simply outmacroing them. Or even if you lost the game, to see your SQ being so much better than theirs | ||
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JaKaTaKSc2
United States2787 Posts
Feeling stoked on my first day with TheCore 0.5 and the new playing initiative. I'll be going for 5 hour sessions with breaks, the last 2 hours of which will be during the normal show time. On Thursdays we'll FFA all day long, and finish off with the Triathlon at 5 PST. If you want to track my progress, I've made a public google doc that everyone can follow. If there is a stat missing that you think would be good to track, definitely let me know. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AtFSjIb2ibJTdEQyVDhGMXh1RmVwb0lpU2ZLTUJsckE Thanks to everyone for your support! | ||
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sanddbox_sc2
United States173 Posts
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warblob004
United States198 Posts
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kollin
United Kingdom8380 Posts
On September 15 2012 10:50 Castigo wrote: I think Artosis (or Jinro?) posted in a blog entry (i can't find it for the life of me), which says that pro koreans, when approaching sc2 they cheese their heart out instead of going for a macro game. This fits the Learning the macro from the micro. However what that post (and i feel yours too) does not take into consideration, it's that them players can already macro if they want to, but they decide not to, to learn the controls better. Whilist TheJakatak audience it's people who CAN'T macro. Also it's quite rewarding in the lower leagues to see how you can crush your opponent, by just simply outmacroing them. Or even if you lost the game, to see your SQ being so much better than theirs Jinro tweeted (which Artosis later expanded upon in his blog) how the PRIME terrans mostly did cheesy builds when they first started playing, for example Marineking 2 raxing a lot, or Polt 111ing in TvP long before anyone else. This helped them learn exactly how far they could push certain units. They learned the game in chunks against the best players in the world. Then it didn't take them long to improve their mechanics, which is why Marineking has such beastly micro and macro. | ||
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sanddbox_sc2
United States173 Posts
On September 16 2012 04:23 kollin wrote: Jinro tweeted (which Artosis later expanded upon in his blog) how the PRIME terrans mostly did cheesy builds when they first started playing, for example Marineking 2 raxing a lot, or Polt 111ing in TvP long before anyone else. This helped them learn exactly how far they could push certain units. They learned the game in chunks against the best players in the world. Then it didn't take them long to improve their mechanics, which is why Marineking has such beastly micro and macro. Playing aggressively - although not necessarily cheesy - is extremely good for improving mechanics. What it won't improve so much is understanding the early->mid->late flow of the matchup, which was fine when the game was in its early stages anyway. In short, they gradually worked up to playing more of a macro style as their mechanics and grasp of the game improved. | ||
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kollin
United Kingdom8380 Posts
On September 16 2012 04:49 sanddbox_sc2 wrote: Playing aggressively - although not necessarily cheesy - is extremely good for improving mechanics. What it won't improve so much is understanding the early->mid->late flow of the matchup, which was fine when the game was in its early stages anyway. In short, they gradually worked up to playing more of a macro style as their mechanics and grasp of the game improved. The different stages of the game are what you make them. If you play very aggressively off one or two bases, such as ForGG, you will end up with very long early and mid games, where each player in all likelihood will not even max out. That's why I think using the PRIME terrans method to get better can be good, provided you already know the basics of the game. | ||
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Castigo
United Kingdom34 Posts
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JaKaTaKSc2
United States2787 Posts
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AtFSjIb2ibJTdE5seEZpVTc4aHZkUnNRUlA4azM5Mnc#gid=15 | ||
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rikter
United States352 Posts
Your method doesnt seem to teach the kind of foundation skills you really need; the overly simplified, rigid progression, is not at all comparable to actual gameplay. Even the earliest, most basic all ins feature split comps, bc they include workers with the attack. Better to play complete games, on a smaller scale, and work up, I say. Besides, these early plays are the most important foundation. Every game has an early game, afterall, and how are you going to control a big army if you cant even properly control a small one? | ||
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damnMangos
United States8 Posts
When I found this method I decided to try it out and see if it could help; in theory it seems like it should. After getting frustrated at poor performance with it and not being able to get out of level 2.1 I decided to make myself feel better and do it with protoss. I couldn't even make the macro requirements with my best race! Now, I am on level 2.2 and I am at low plat simply by having better macro mechanics than my opponent. I have beaten broodling/baneling/infestor fairly consistently just by being able to pump out more units than my opponent and after only 2 days of using this method my terran macro actually feels more solid than my protoss macro which I've been playing for a whole year. Another unexpected benefit of this is that it eliminates ladder anxiety. For the first time in my Starcraft career winning and losing doesn't matter to me as long as I am nailing my personal macro goals. As cheesy as the quote is on TheLevels spreadsheet, it really is true. Thank you JaK | ||
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rikter
United States352 Posts
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JaKaTaKSc2
United States2787 Posts
I feel like you are only looking at the first round of the system. The system as a whole teaches all the things you are talking about, albeit in a non-conventional way. To address your points specifically: Im not sure how they will translate over to actual games Each round adds a new unit, so, over time, the player slowly adds in more decisions (units and buildings) to the game until it is a real game. This ensures that a new or struggling player doesn't get overwhelmed by more information than they can hold. Doing early attacks also teaches you how to exploit your opponants comp, and lets you explore the power of certain timings. TheLevels encourages the learning of the game through aggression (including early attacks). The only limits are in the units you are allowed to make. For example, you can proxy 2 gate on level 1.1, you can 4 gate on 1.2, you can do an immortal sentry all-in on 2.3. Any strategy imaginable is contained within TheLevels, the difference is, I'm not telling anyone they have to do a proven standard build to improve. but also the economic planning involved in making multiple unit types. Its things like this that really lead me to believe that you aren't thinking of TheLevels in their entirety. Every round past the first round has multiple unit compositions. I apologize if this wasn't clearly explained, I'll be making a video soon to avoid misunderstandings like these. | ||
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rikter
United States352 Posts
I like the concept of a leveling system, but really feel like it should be based around #of bases not #of units available. Heres my levels: 1.1) Start with one base play, have an actual build order, follow that build order no matter what. Even if other guy shows hard counters, you go forward, try and micro your ass off, and just execute the best you can. Even if you lose you still gain in that you work on micro, work on unit control, in a realistic way, and you work on having a tight opener. All of these are vital skills. The idea is to teach killer instinct, an invaluable tool. And it removes stress, since you know what you are going to do from the start, and there are no strategy concerns at this point. Plus, you will surely win games. Tight one base play can take you up to silver gold, no problem. 1.2) We add in a new one base play. This is an opportunity to reflect on results, and to get out into the community a bit to find a new one base. 1.3) We scout and make a read on which one of our one base plays we should use. 2.1) Fast expand into 2 base timing 2.2) Add in another FE 2BT 2.3) We scout and make a read on which one of our 1 or 2 base plays to use. 3.1) 2 base pressure into taking a 3rd 3.2) Fast third base 3.3) You should be in plat/diamond by now. Add in SC2 gears, join a starcraft2 community, continue to explore new builds! I really think the way I just described above would be more effective than the current system. There is just too much dead time on the early levels. I believe that some rigid structure is especially helpful in the beginning, I just think you are restricting the wrong thing. | ||
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