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JaKaTaKSc2
United States2787 Posts
It took me 1 season to get from Bronze to Gold. (Promoted while on 1.1) It took me 10 days more to get from Gold to Platinum (Promoted while on 1.7) This argument is dead. Let's let time decide what works and what doesn't. If you don't want to use it, no one is making you. If TheLevels are not fun and rewarding, no one will use them. | ||
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Islaac
Australia3 Posts
I'm at work right now but I'm very interested to have a look. At what point are you planning to add micro? Also as an aside on the 'are you qualified' thing, I actually think you are perfectly qualified. I would rather have an experienced teacher teach my children maths than I would a professor of mathematics who has never taught primary school kids. edit: It took you 10 days to go from 1.1 to 1.7, but presumably a whole season to go from 1.0 to 1.1 - room for adjustment of your levels perhaps? | ||
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Bwaaaa
Australia969 Posts
On September 24 2012 12:41 JaKaTaK wrote: Just made it to plat. All Macro, 0 micro. Currently playing on 1.8 Protoss. It took me 1 season to get from Bronze to Gold. (Promoted while on 1.1) It took me 10 days more to get from Gold to Platinum (Promoted while on 1.7) This argument is dead. Let's let time decide what works and what doesn't. If you don't want to use it, no one is making you. If TheLevels are not fun and rewarding, no one will use them. How many games did you play/win a day to climb that fast? | ||
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stard1n
50 Posts
rikter, you don't get smashed on the ladder by using TheLevels. You crush people, easily. I feel like you are refusing to take the perspective of a new player. The only thing you need to reach platinum league is macro. That is all. And that accounts for approximately 60% of all players. Please note that there is a huge difference between NA platinum and EU platinum, and no i'm not trolling. This thread is a bit misleading to EU players... | ||
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Siemon16
Netherlands5 Posts
The thing I dont quite understand when you lvl up to 1.2 etc + The SQ calculating tool, is that accurate? | ||
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Galaxy345
Luxembourg28 Posts
After you accomplished Level One you come to Level Two which is the Micro Level. Do you really think you have to go 0 Macro and only Mirco your 6 Workers? xD Its kinda easy to get Jakataks Method no? You learn to Macro Only in Level 1, Micro and Macro at the same time at Level 2. And I agree that it is really usefull to practice and you improve in a very efficient way | ||
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Islaac
Australia3 Posts
I'm not going to use your method. However, I'm so impressed by your dedication that I thought I should do you the courtesy of explaining that decision. It's not exactly complicated, I simply don't want to play with any restrictions except those I impose on myself. I wholeheartedly agreee with your stance on macro and SQ and clearly your method is very useful for many people. Best of luck for the future, and ignore everyone who asks 'why'. | ||
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Hylirion
Netherlands968 Posts
I see you are putting a lot of effort in thinking things out and trying to help people, which is great, but I think you are not so good in presenting information. In this OP, for example, I read your story about macro being important and how it can really help people improve. I agree with that since I am following filtersc's guide on macro and it really works very well. You have some great examples of how you helped people, but after you story ends you never start telling what exactly is your training method? The only thing I can find about it in the OP is a link to a google doc, which is just a table of units to be used at a level (?) without any explanation? I have the same issue with The Core, while I kind of like the idea of a truly optimised hotkey setup, the OP is such a mess that while it provides a lot of detailed information, imo it fails to provide basic inforamtion as why it is a better layout compared to standard hotkeys and a simple overview of how it looks like and where to put your hand on the keyboard. Your introduction video of setting up The Core somewhat reminded me of the Jaboodydubs version of a Billy Mays commercial (windows key, forget about it, bam! it's gone). If you want to inform people, I think you should use an informative way of presenting yourself in the video's and just act more serious, so someone can take you more serious aswell. All in all, my opinion is that if you put so much time in thinking about things and trying to help people, you should also put more effort in the actual presenting of your ideas to other people, since that seems to be your goal in the end. Keep up the good work and the enthusiasm though  . | ||
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rikter
United States352 Posts
On September 24 2012 12:41 JaKaTaK wrote: Just made it to plat. All Macro, 0 micro. Currently playing on 1.8 Protoss. It took me 1 season to get from Bronze to Gold. (Promoted while on 1.1) It took me 10 days more to get from Gold to Platinum (Promoted while on 1.7) This argument is dead. Let's let time decide what works and what doesn't. If you don't want to use it, no one is making you. If TheLevels are not fun and rewarding, no one will use them. What account did you make plat on? SC2ranks still has you as gold league as of this posting, while my account info is up to date. Not sayin its not true, just wonderin why I cant see it. In any event, it took you twice as long to do it your way. You could have done it faster probably if you didnt set yourself up for so many build order losses. Seriously, those Terran levels are way out of whack. No viking until level 1.7? That unit is CRITICAL in TvT and TvP, and its pretty damn important in TvZ because if the game goes long you need them for broods. You could easily switch Thor and Viking, Thors arent strictly necessary in any match-up while the vikings are. Protoss isnt QUITE as bad since you can start 4 gating at level 1.3, and at least that is a useful build that can win games. But where is the structure that says, build how many gates and how many probes? There is a definite answer to those questions, and it is NOT "as many as you need to keep your spending low!", it is 4, and 24, because thats what you can support on one base. You shouldn't be stacking resources because you shouldn't be overbuilding probes to the point that you cant spend the money on 4 gates. If you have 4 and 24 and money is still piling up, the answer isnt "build more gateways!", its "do a better job staying on top of your warp-ins, you cant queue units with warpgates so its really important to not let them idle". I thought you wanted to help people. If people in this thread keep telling you there are more effective ways, that are not nearly as complicated as you allow people to think they are, then why not try incorporating them? As I have said before, you provide no real structure in terms of how to play the game other than "macro blindly and use this new unit in your comp!" There is a bit more to it than that. Where is the emphasis on build order? Build orders answer what and when. Your levels only answer what. I have been through this document again and again and I can't see where the micro focus is or the multitasking focus is. I mean, I see where you say that that is the focus, but what exactly are you supposed to be doing differently. It really isnt enough to say, "ok, now just micro your units!" This is the kind of stuff you learn by doing actual 1 base builds...which you do not provide, so even if I went through all of your levels I would still eventually have to come back and learn build orders on my own. How can you champion a system that doesn't even teach a basic build order? Its not that hard to make 4 friggin buildings... | ||
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MstrJinbo
United States1251 Posts
On September 24 2012 21:28 rikter wrote: What account did you make plat on? SC2ranks still has you as gold league as of this posting, while my account info is up to date. Not sayin its not true, just wonderin why I cant see it. In any event, it took you twice as long to do it your way. You could have done it faster probably if you didnt set yourself up for so many build order losses. Seriously, those Terran levels are way out of whack. No viking until level 1.7? That unit is CRITICAL in TvT and TvP, and its pretty damn important in TvZ because if the game goes long you need them for broods. You could easily switch Thor and Viking, Thors arent strictly necessary in any match-up while the vikings are. Protoss isnt QUITE as bad since you can start 4 gating at level 1.3, and at least that is a useful build that can win games. But where is the structure that says, build how many gates and how many probes? There is a definite answer to those questions, and it is NOT "as many as you need to keep your spending low!", it is 4, and 24, because thats what you can support on one base. You shouldn't be stacking resources because you shouldn't be overbuilding probes to the point that you cant spend the money on 4 gates. If you have 4 and 24 and money is still piling up, the answer isnt "build more gateways!", its "do a better job staying on top of your warp-ins, you cant queue units with warpgates so its really important to not let them idle". I thought you wanted to help people. If people in this thread keep telling you there are more effective ways, that are not nearly as complicated as you allow people to think they are, then why not try incorporating them? As I have said before, you provide no real structure in terms of how to play the game other than "macro blindly and use this new unit in your comp!" There is a bit more to it than that. Where is the emphasis on build order? Build orders answer what and when. Your levels only answer what. I have been through this document again and again and I can't see where the micro focus is or the multitasking focus is. I mean, I see where you say that that is the focus, but what exactly are you supposed to be doing differently. It really isnt enough to say, "ok, now just micro your units!" This is the kind of stuff you learn by doing actual 1 base builds...which you do not provide, so even if I went through all of your levels I would still eventually have to come back and learn build orders on my own. How can you champion a system that doesn't even teach a basic build order? Its not that hard to make 4 friggin buildings... I have a question for you. Is it better to build a couple too many barracks or gateways but keep your money low or to have the perfect amount but float 2000 min because your mecanics suck? When you don't know how to play, build orders are pretty meaningless. Micro and multitasking are pretty meaningless too. If you disagree, please explain how to micro 8 marines against 2 queens and a spine crawler. They are critical on the highest level because masters and grandmasters generally both have good mechanics already. Anyway you should stop preaching the whole learn Starcraft with the 1 base allin. It is actually one of the worst ways to learn to play as it ranks you higher than your actual skill merits. Before someone brings up the artosis article which supposedly advocates that method, keep in mind those Prime terrans already had decent mechanics and skill at the game when they started focusing on the more agressive builds. | ||
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rikter
United States352 Posts
On September 24 2012 23:05 MstrJinbo wrote: I have a question for you. Is it better to build a couple too many barracks or gateways but keep your money low or to have the perfect amount but float 2000 min because your mecanics suck? When you don't know how to play, build orders are pretty meaningless. Micro and multitasking are pretty meaningless too. If you disagree, please explain how to micro 8 marines against 2 queens and a spine crawler. They are critical on the highest level because masters and grandmasters generally both have good mechanics already. Anyway you should stop preaching the whole learn Starcraft with the 1 base allin. It is actually one of the worst ways to learn to play as it ranks you higher than your actual skill merits. Before someone brings up the artosis article which supposedly advocates that method, keep in mind those Prime terrans already had decent mechanics and skill at the game when they started focusing on the more agressive builds. It is better to float the minerals, and work on your mechanics and your build order to work on lowering the unspent minerals. One base plays, properly executed, have pretty much the lowest unspent minerals possible. The whole point of a build order is to be efficient. Keep in mind, the levels is in fact a build order, just a weak one. As far as your question on microing 8 marines against 2 queens and a crawler, you pull away towards his hatch, his mins, his ramp, somewhere you can do damage outside its range and force the crawler to uproot. When fighting the queens, pull back the weak marines to keep DPS as high as possible, as long as possible. Target fire the queen with the most energy. Manage your rally point to bring reinforcements into the fight. Deciding not to take the fight and maneuvering away is also micro... Also consider, that if you don't have enough units at the right time, the issue can be solved by evaluating build order. As far as 1 basing placing you higher than your skill merits, I strongly disagree. You will be placed into whatever league brings your winrate down to 50%. Statements like this indicate a real misconception about what it takes to pull off a good 1 base. Even pros at the highest level lose to 1 base plays, so I think its safe to say you can go far with them. Why should you artificially place yourself in a lower league where a single tank or banshee fast enough will win the game? If you understand the game well enough to execute that build, by your own admission it puts you head and shoulders above all the other new, low leaguers for whom "build orders are meaningless", and that would seem to justify the higher league... Just because build orders dont make total sense now doesn't mean you abandon them... how are you going to learn builds by not executing build orders? And why should you start by learning some three base late game play instead of a 6 minute timing? By the way, those Prime Terrans didnt do those build because they had sick sc2 mechanics, they did them because that is the way to learn those sick mechanics. | ||
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SirPsychoMantis
United States180 Posts
On September 25 2012 00:38 rikter wrote: It is better to float the minerals, and work on your mechanics and your build order to work on lowering the unspent minerals. One base plays, properly executed, have pretty much the lowest unspent minerals possible. The whole point of a build order is to be efficient. Keep in mind, the levels is in fact a build order, just a weak one. As far as your question on microing 8 marines against 2 queens and a crawler, you pull away towards his hatch, his mins, his ramp, somewhere you can do damage outside its range and force the crawler to uproot. When fighting the queens, pull back the weak marines to keep DPS as high as possible, as long as possible. Target fire the queen with the most energy. Manage your rally point to bring reinforcements into the fight. Deciding not to take the fight and maneuvering away is also micro... Also consider, that if you don't have enough units at the right time, the issue can be solved by evaluating build order. As far as 1 basing placing you higher than your skill merits, I strongly disagree. You will be placed into whatever league brings your winrate down to 50%. Statements like this indicate a real misconception about what it takes to pull off a good 1 base. Even pros at the highest level lose to 1 base plays, so I think its safe to say you can go far with them. Why should you artificially place yourself in a lower league where a single tank or banshee fast enough will win the game? If you understand the game well enough to execute that build, by your own admission it puts you head and shoulders above all the other new, low leaguers for whom "build orders are meaningless", and that would seem to justify the higher league... Just because build orders dont make total sense now doesn't mean you abandon them... how are you going to learn builds by not executing build orders? And why should you start by learning some three base late game play instead of a 6 minute timing? By the way, those Prime Terrans didnt do those build because they had sick sc2 mechanics, they did them because that is the way to learn those sick mechanics. Lower level players who only know 1 all in per matchup are very thrown off any time they are presented with a new, unknown situation. While yes, all ins can win you games, it completely kills learning any decision making if that is the only build you do. All ins at the pro level are a great tool for a bo3/5 to keep your play unpredictable / metagame the opponent, but running one every game in ladder is not going to help you as much as learning to play a macro game. "Not executing build orders" is the equivalent of writing your own song over playing guitar tabs note for note. The build orders you create will not be the optimal build, but it will let you understand the why. Why does (Zerg Pro X) take 3 gas at 6:30? etc. Which IMO is better in the long run for learning. | ||
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Agrias
United States2 Posts
On September 24 2012 21:28 rikter wrote: What account did you make plat on? SC2ranks still has you as gold league as of this posting, while my account info is up to date. Not sayin its not true, just wonderin why I cant see it. He made platinum in the Heart of the Swarm beta. He has been mainly streaming and laddering on HOTS. | ||
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rikter
United States352 Posts
On September 25 2012 02:25 SirPsychoMantis wrote: Lower level players who only know 1 all in per matchup are very thrown off any time they are presented with a new, unknown situation. While yes, all ins can win you games, it completely kills learning any decision making if that is the only build you do. All ins at the pro level are a great tool for a bo3/5 to keep your play unpredictable / metagame the opponent, but running one every game in ladder is not going to help you as much as learning to play a macro game. "Not executing build orders" is the equivalent of writing your own song over playing guitar tabs note for note. The build orders you create will not be the optimal build, but it will let you understand the why. Why does (Zerg Pro X) take 3 gas at 6:30? etc. Which IMO is better in the long run for learning. Those new unknown situations are what spur growth. When you see someone counter your build, you just got a lesson in things to look for that indicate you need to try something else. In any event, I think starting with 1 simple build per matchup is fine, and as you learn to execute it better, you add in new ones. If you go back and read the little system I offered up, you would see that as you get good at your 1 base you either add in new 1 base or move up to 2. The transitions to higher level are easier. I have a problem with saying that you cant learn as much and then not giving any examples of things you arent going to learn. All the things you do in your "macro game" you do in a 1 base. In fact, theres quite a few things you do on one base that you dont do in "macro game" training progressions such as this one (like have an actual plan of attack or working to master unit control), so who is really learning more? The pros take these greedy openers because they HAVE to. When you are up against someone that you KNOW has a good shot at holding, then its best to try and establish an edge later. But if you give these guys a window early, they will take it. Usually in most competitive endeavors Ive been a part of, when someone gets blown out of the game early, THEY are the ones that are less skilled, not the person blowing them out. It makes me laugh when someone loses early and somehow the other guy is the n00b because he was able to control better and win, like theres some gentlemens agreement that you can leave yourself open and not get punished for it til you are both 200/200. Edit to add: Don't know how the beta ladder compares to the WoL ladder, aside from which its a test version of the game that hasn't been balanced to the extent this game has. There's a lot of volatility there, with people trying all kinds of new things, and a huge section of the community is currently shut out. GJ and all, but still, moving up one league under those circumstances is not the same thing. | ||
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MstrJinbo
United States1251 Posts
On September 25 2012 00:38 rikter wrote: It is better to float the minerals, and work on your mechanics and your build order to work on lowering the unspent minerals. One base plays, properly executed, have pretty much the lowest unspent minerals possible. The whole point of a build order is to be efficient. Keep in mind, the levels is in fact a build order, just a weak one. As far as your question on microing 8 marines against 2 queens and a crawler, you pull away towards his hatch, his mins, his ramp, somewhere you can do damage outside its range and force the crawler to uproot. When fighting the queens, pull back the weak marines to keep DPS as high as possible, as long as possible. Target fire the queen with the most energy. Manage your rally point to bring reinforcements into the fight. Deciding not to take the fight and maneuvering away is also micro... Also consider, that if you don't have enough units at the right time, the issue can be solved by evaluating build order. As far as 1 basing placing you higher than your skill merits, I strongly disagree. You will be placed into whatever league brings your winrate down to 50%. Statements like this indicate a real misconception about what it takes to pull off a good 1 base. Even pros at the highest level lose to 1 base plays, so I think its safe to say you can go far with them. Why should you artificially place yourself in a lower league where a single tank or banshee fast enough will win the game? If you understand the game well enough to execute that build, by your own admission it puts you head and shoulders above all the other new, low leaguers for whom "build orders are meaningless", and that would seem to justify the higher league... Just because build orders dont make total sense now doesn't mean you abandon them... how are you going to learn builds by not executing build orders? And why should you start by learning some three base late game play instead of a 6 minute timing? By the way, those Prime Terrans didnt do those build because they had sick sc2 mechanics, they did them because that is the way to learn those sick mechanics. Again. keep in mind that for Polt or Marineking "learning" the game is something entirely different from your average bronze or silver league player. My main objection to what you are saying is your insistence on 1-base plays in particular. If you don't already have a strong foundation in the game there is very little they can teach you. I will give you credit for attempting to answer my queen/spinecrawlers question. It was somewhat of a rhetorical question where the best solutions involve things that are not micro (example. Coming back with more marines and stim) | ||
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7mk
Germany10157 Posts
On September 25 2012 02:28 Agrias wrote: He made platinum in the Heart of the Swarm beta. He has been mainly streaming and laddering on HOTS. HotS ranking means nothing, theres wayyy too few people in it. I easily beat some Grandmaster players who were pretty awful. | ||
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rikter
United States352 Posts
On September 25 2012 02:56 MstrJinbo wrote: Again. keep in mind that for Polt or Marineking "learning" the game is something entirely different from your average bronze or silver league player. My main objection to what you are saying is your insistence on 1-base plays in particular. If you don't already have a strong foundation in the game there is very little they can teach you. I will give you credit for attempting to answer my queen/spinecrawlers question. It was somewhat of a rhetorical question where the best solutions involve things that are not micro (example. Coming back with more marines and stim) My preference is only on starting on one base. Thats level one. Everyone seems to be so happy to give up critical units and move level by level, unless it involves staying on one base because of this nonsense stigma that you cant possibly be good if you dont rush up to 70+ workers. I just dont see how this hypothetical person with no experience cant handle the simplest of complete games (1 base) but is somehow to be expected to process and execute a 15-20 minute late game play. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills here, how friggin difficult is it to see that 1 base, which is less than multiple bases, is the easiest way to learn, besides which it is effectively training all the critical skills you need (skills this system neglects entirely). You wanna be good? You need these skills. You wanna get these skills? You work on them. You dont get them by doing a bunch of things that are not them. Also, in the answer to your queen question, it very cearly states that running away is an option, that reinforcing is an option. And depending on how he places his crawler, what his queen energy is at, how far you are reinforcing from, you can still do damage. When you are all in you get to experiment in situations like this and figure out ways to exploit what the other guy has actually done. I still dont understand why this is being advocated for use on the ladder. If youre just blindly gonna make units then you may as well just do a custom game against very easy AI. Why do you even need your opponent if you arent going to be responding to anything he does anyways? | ||
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7mk
Germany10157 Posts
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JaKaTaKSc2
United States2787 Posts
Why don't you make your own TL post about your learning method? It seems pretty mapped out. Post it up and see what people think of it. I'm being genuine, not sarcastic. I think you should do it. @Hylirion I definitely need to work on my data presentation. For TheLevels and TheCore, we're still working things out and improving them. There will be a "TheCore" and "TheLevels" post on TL in the future that is focused on presenting the tools in the best way possible, but right now I have my hands full with the testing and tweaking stage. Great advice though. I definitely agree. Thanks :D On September 24 2012 14:00 Islaac wrote: I'm so impressed by your dedication JaKaTaK, huge wraps from me. I'm at work right now but I'm very interested to have a look. At what point are you planning to add micro? Also as an aside on the 'are you qualified' thing, I actually think you are perfectly qualified. I would rather have an experienced teacher teach my children maths than I would a professor of mathematics who has never taught primary school kids. edit: It took you 10 days to go from 1.1 to 1.7, but presumably a whole season to go from 1.0 to 1.1 - room for adjustment of your levels perhaps? Starcraft requires at all times, some micro and some macro. Saying 0 micro was an exaggeration, and I appologize for it. The first level is a complete focus on macro, whenever I had the opportunity to micro, I ignored it in favor of macroing better. I did not worry about unit composition, or scouting or strategy. I did not try to kite or arrange my army before battle. I just made stuff and threw it at my opponent. Micro begins on the 2nd level (2.1) which for protoss is after the last round of the first level (1.8). The requirements are the same, but this time I will focus as much on micro as possible. I will attempt to get the most out of each unit and every battle. Definitely looking forward to it. So the way I worded that all was not very accurate. I again apologize and reword. At the beginning of the last season I had 3 accounts (one for each race) in the bronze league. By playing Level 1.1 on all of them I was promoted into the Gold league mid season. I made it as far as 1.4(terran) 1.2(zerg) and 1.3(protoss) as the season ended. A couple of days into the season I had the opportunity to start playing HotS beta, so I did. I focused only on protoss and got to platinum league in 10 days. This is the log of my progress: Quest of a JaK I was on level 1.7 when I was promoted and have moved on to 1.8 which I will be playing today :D Hope that clears somethings up. | ||
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kollin
United Kingdom8380 Posts
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