EPTSmall second questions (browsed through the thread but didn't explicitly spot it): I suppose TheLevels are meant to be used on ladder?
TheJaKaTaK - Page 14
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Dragnmn
Netherlands52 Posts
Small second questions (browsed through the thread but didn't explicitly spot it): I suppose TheLevels are meant to be used on ladder? | ||
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MstrJinbo
United States1251 Posts
You are right in that its no skin off my back, but I really can't stand the spread of questionable advice and systems, especially when the target audience is people who by definition can't properly evaluate the product, and so I make these posts in the hopes that the OP's might consider some of what I have to say, and maybe do something really good. The thing is, there isn't all that much that is really questionable advice. Placing arbitrary restrictions on what you practice is essentially how you learn anything. My nephew just started school, should I complain the system he learns math is bad? What do you mean he can only do addition and subtraction? 2 x 4 is easier than 2 + 2 + 2 + 2 so he should be leaning multiplication too. He also needs to know about fractions and negative numbers cause right now he wouldn't be able to pass the SAT. Every method of learning has its pros and cons and this one is no exception. On a seperate note I found it mildly hilarious to watch two of his students play each other on his stream, and one went mass blue flame hellion because he knew the other guy could only make zerglings. Although strangely, the guy going hellion (or the guy going collosus against mass marine) didn't always win. Edit. Small second questions (browsed through the thread but didn't explicitly spot it): I suppose TheLevels are meant to be used on ladder? Yeah my understanding is that this is used on the ladder. | ||
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Salomonster
Sweden67 Posts
On September 26 2012 22:10 Dragnmn wrote: I see that TheLevels are currently updated for Heart of the Swarm. If I wanted to use it in WoL, can I just ignore any rounds involving HotS-units? Small second questions (browsed through the thread but didn't explicitly spot it): I suppose TheLevels are meant to be used on ladder? yes, just skip the hots units for now. and yes, the levels works perfectly fine on the ladder, if you have a hard time focusing at first (I know I had a hard time not trying to win at first) play a few games versus the AI to eaze your brain than go back on the ladder. you could play some custom games to, but you will play vs ppl of very mixed skill levels that way, unless you play friends. | ||
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rikter
United States352 Posts
On September 27 2012 00:06 MstrJinbo wrote: The thing is, there isn't all that much that is really questionable advice. Placing arbitrary restrictions on what you practice is essentially how you learn anything. My nephew just started school, should I complain the system he learns math is bad? What do you mean he can only do addition and subtraction? 2 x 4 is easier than 2 + 2 + 2 + 2 so he should be leaning multiplication too. He also needs to know about fractions and negative numbers cause right now he wouldn't be able to pass the SAT. Every method of learning has its pros and cons and this one is no exception. On a seperate note I found it mildly hilarious to watch two of his students play each other on his stream, and one went mass blue flame hellion because he knew the other guy could only make zerglings. Although strangely, the guy going hellion (or the guy going collosus against mass marine) didn't always win. Edit. Yeah my understanding is that this is used on the ladder. 2+2+2+2 is actual fundamentals of math. What your nephew is learning now is analogous to what he will be doing in the future when he learns more complex stuff. The levels have, at best, a passing resemblance to future play because macroing while controlling units is mechanically different than what is being practiced now, and also there are real philosophical differences as well. I still don't understand why you need to do this on the ladder. What is the point of having an opponent if you aren't really responding to anything he does anyways? Couldn't you just do this in a custom game? SHOULDNT you just do this in a custom game? Ive finally figured it out, btw, this is a stripped down version of the single player campaign system in WoL (extended to HotS) Only instead of having actual scenarios that have been designed to highlight the abilities of each new unit and to allow for flexible strategy depending on the order you did the missions, you are thrown out onto the ladder with a weak build and no play for victory, or any real instruction other than "make enough units and buildings to spend money" (which completely neglects the financial planning aspects of the game, so I guess we can add that to the list of things you wont learn doing this but you would learn doing 1 base BO's.) | ||
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MstrJinbo
United States1251 Posts
2+2+2+2 is actual fundamentals of math. What your nephew is learning now is analogous to what he will be doing in the future when he learns more complex stuff. The levels have, at best, a passing resemblance to future play because macroing while controlling units is mechanically different than what is being practiced now, and also there are real philosophical differences as well. SD, SV and SZ are the actual fundamentals of playing Zerg in SC2 as well. That is not mechanically different than future play at all. Sometimes you build stuff and that is it. Sometimes you build stuff while setting up a new hatchery. Sometimes you are building stuff while maneuvering a zergling to scout. And yes sometimes you are managing your army so your roaches aren't running around like idiots trying to get in range. Whatever it is, the fundamentals are the same. You build units with hotkeys then go back to what you were doing. That never changed regardless of your build or strategy. Queens were recently given an attack range increase. We micro them dramatically different now. Do you remember the hellion/queen dance. Where hellions would try to bait queens away from the spine and then try to kite them to death. Managing hellions and queens took a lot of practice and attention. All that practice isn't very useful anymore. However we still inject larva the exact same way as before. Again every way of learning things has advantages and disadvantages. Perhaps you should consider some of those advantages. They do exist. Honestly. I personally think past plat people should work off a single build order and optimize it. Just like you advocate(well I'm not sold on the 1 base part, but that's besides the point). I just don't understand why there is all this opposition to systems like this for new players. Learning fundamental mechanics can never be bad. There are a lot of people in gold and low platinum who are trying very hard to optimize builds but physically can't because they never learned the basic mechanics. There are also people who don't have a build and only freestyle and keep wondering why they don't get promoted. Advantages and disadvantages for every method of learning. | ||
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rikter
United States352 Posts
Anything you do in the levels you could get from the single player campaign, which has scalable difficulty and designed scenarios tailored to the units, and which you have already paid for. This system is just a skimpy spreadsheet, with little guidance or content to speak of. It is literally just a list of units and a few rules about SQ. Im just not seeing this revolutionary concept or content that some of these posters seem to think is there. If you think this is so amazing and helpful then at least check out the single player campaign because its the EXACT SAME THING only better designed with a lot more content. | ||
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MstrJinbo
United States1251 Posts
The big excuse I keep hearing is that these people physically cant do something perfectly, so thats the reason they should abandon it? Instead of, say, working on their deficiency directly? You are right in that the specific key combinations are the same, but the execution is different, the basis for your decisions is different, literally everything is different except that yes, you will still be using the same buttons and buildings to make the units. There is no way to avoid this work, all this is is a less efficient way of learning a portion of the material you would off a one base, or any other BO. And look at the levels, seriously, there is just as much material there to process as in any 1 base build (i.e. not that much!) and youre doing it to less effect. It is actually exactly the same. The mechanic boils down to building stuff in your base while doing or thinking about different things. It's not just pushing buttons. | ||
Salient
United States876 Posts
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JDub
United States976 Posts
On September 27 2012 01:40 rikter wrote: The big excuse I keep hearing is that these people physically cant do something perfectly, so thats the reason they should abandon it? Instead of, say, working on their deficiency directly? You are right in that the specific key combinations are the same, but the execution is different, the basis for your decisions is different, literally everything is different except that yes, you will still be using the same buttons and buildings to make the units. There is no way to avoid this work, all this is is a less efficient way of learning a portion of the material you would off a one base, or any other BO. And look at the levels, seriously, there is just as much material there to process as in any 1 base build (i.e. not that much!) and youre doing it to less effect. Honestly, I think you've made your point, and you should just let it go rather than filling up this thread with your same points over and over again. Personally, I don't think either side here is entirely right or wrong. Different ways of learning work for different people. If people find that TheLevels is fun for them, and they enjoy it more than trying to emulate some 1 base BOs, then fine, that's great. Personally, I learned the game by 1-basing, and made it to Masters without anything like TheLevels. I don't think that means that TheLevels won't be beneficial for some people. But really, what it comes down to is this: at this point, you are just reiterating the same points over and over again. You've made your opinion very clear, and its impact on OP won't change at all if you keep filling the thread with more of the same. Sure, it may just be a placebo effect, but placebo effects are real. If people are happy that they are improving and they think it's due to TheLevels, it doesn't actually matter whether or not it's due to TheLevels or just due to the fact that they are playing more SC2. The end result is that they are happy playing the game. For example, let's say I'm a physician who is super knowledgeable about pain management and the inner workings of the human body, and I don't believe in the scientific reasoning behind acupuncture, but if someone made a thread about their acupuncture method and people went there and it made them feel better, getting spiteful about the fact that the person performing the acupuncture is getting credit for what may just be a placebo effect isn't going to help the situation. Going to that person and saying "your way is stupid, you should be doing it my way (pain medication or other therapy), I'm an expert, your clients aren't qualified to judge whether or not your treatment is real" would be a stupid thing to do. The person believes it, and his clients believe it and it works for them, so let them have their fun. | ||
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rikter
United States352 Posts
And if you really are developing adequate mechanics and following a (weak) build order, then why cant you follow an even simpler build order that teaches everything that thelevels does and then some? seriously, OP makes this thread asking for feedback, gets some that he doesnt like and does nothing based on it. TWO pro gamers have echoed the same things I have said plus articles quoting jinro and the prime team. Maybe OP has some schooling in education methods, but his starcraft schooling is seriously lacking. Its not your place to try and censor discussion between other forum members, especially since its legitimite critique of thelevels and all responses address the points made by the person im responding to. Edit to the guy who says everything is the same...I thought the whole point is that for level 1.1 to 1.x you arent microing anything at all. So if you arent microing, how exactly are you developing these identical mechanics? | ||
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ApocAlypsE007
Israel1007 Posts
I'm a Diamond player looking for the extra bit to get into Masters. How much those excersices gonna help me? | ||
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JDub
United States976 Posts
On September 27 2012 02:54 rikter wrote: seriously, OP makes this thread asking for feedback, gets some that he doesnt like and does nothing based on it. TWO pro gamers have echoed the same things I have said plus articles quoting jinro and the prime team. Maybe OP has some schooling in education methods, but his starcraft schooling is seriously lacking. Its not your place to try and censor discussion between other forum members, especially since its legitimite critique of thelevels and all responses address the points made by the person im responding to. I'm not censoring you. Let me explain my position: 1) Let me start with this: I agree with a lot of your points. I would not personally use TheLevels, or teach lower level players using TheLevels. I do not agree with your attacks on TheLevels, nor the dismissive tone you take in all of your posts. 2) You are repeating the same things over and over again. 3) I'm not trying to censor you, I'm just trying to tell you that the current argument is filling the thread with the same points repeated over and over again. 4) The OP has gotten plenty of feedback that is positive as well, so it's unreasonable to expect him to only listen to the negative feedback. 5) The fact is, people are enjoying using TheLevels, and they believe they are improving with it. The only way to really 100% settle the debate would be to do some huge study analyzing a group of players and their improvement using different methods, comparing TheLevels to your method of improving or others, and then look at which ones on average get people to: a) improve faster b) be motived to play more c) etc. You can keep arguing here if you want, I'm just telling you that it's derailing the thread and drowning out more meaningful discussion of TheLevels, that hasn't already been argued to death. | ||
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Oreo7
United States1647 Posts
one is the basis of logic, the other is a videogame. | ||
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shope
United States7 Posts
On September 27 2012 03:29 Oreo7 wrote: if Jak's whole argument why his training program is effective because learning math is the same as learning sc2, than I think it's pretty apparent to anyone he's just wrong. one is the basis of logic, the other is a videogame. It would appear your logic could use some improvement. | ||
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MstrJinbo
United States1251 Posts
On September 27 2012 03:29 Oreo7 wrote: if Jak's whole argument why his training program is effective because learning math is the same as learning sc2, than I think it's pretty apparent to anyone he's just wrong. one is the basis of logic, the other is a videogame. They were my words not Jaks. My point wasn't necessarily about effectiveness. It was more that putting arbitrary limits on what you learn is normal when teaching things that aren't Starcraft. So why is in controversial to apply those practices to Starcraft. | ||
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JaKaTaKSc2
United States2787 Posts
Concerning endorsements: (from the OP) What community members think about TheJaKaTaK: Andre (Gretorp) Hengchua: + Show Spoiler + Really love what you're doing. I'm a big fan of the way that you teach; i've been actually trying to enforce that since the beta days. But you're taking it to another level, and i'm glad to hear that William, co-founder GLHF Magazine: + Show Spoiler + I really dig what you're doing. Trump: + Show Spoiler + I approve this method. Infinity Seven's Sanddbox + Show Spoiler + I totally agree with what the show is doing; approaching sc2 in terms of gradually ramping up difficulty is the way to go. Ask any expert from any discipline (music, sports, etc) and they'll tell you fundamentals are the most important. You gotta start from the ground up I apologize in advance if this list is not long enough, It is very difficult to get in contact with the big community figures. Do I have to play on the Ladder? Absolutely not! 4v4, 3v3, 2v2, 1v1, FFA on the ladder, against friends, or against AI are all perfectly acceptable ways of using TheLevels to improve. Tower Defense, sadly, does not count. Sorry  What do I focus on in Levels 2 and 3? It is difficult to explain these things in text in a way that will effectively communicate what the goal of these specific levels are. The short version of the 3 focuses are as follows: Level 1 is Macro Focus - This does not mean you cannot micro. What it does mean is that you should avoid microing at the sacrifice of macro. The goal should be to pass the round with as much focus on macro as possible (as this will speed your progress to Level 2) Level 2 is Micro Focus - try to get the most out of every battle, experiment with different ways to position and take engagements. Retreat when you can get away with units, stay when you're trapped and deal the damage you can. Stutter step, etc. You should avoid macroing at the sacrifice of micro. This will relieve the stress of worrying about multitasking. The ball is in your court. I could make constrictions involving micro, but its not quite as measurable as macro is, so set goals for yourself, watch pro games, search forums and other resources and try to master every type of micro you desire. Level 3 is Multitask Focus - Now that you have the different macro and micro mechanics mastered and second nature, it is time for the final and most difficult step, Multitasking. The difficulties have been increased. This will create an environment where you cannot let your macro slip in order to micro, you must be able to do both (seemingly) simultaneously, by going back and forth quickly between the two. This is the most difficult of the 3 levels, possibly the most difficult mechanic in Starcraft 2 and has been left to last. I could have implemented some sort of constraint like, "you must be doing at least 2 things at all times" but I didn't see a real measureable way to do this, so again the ball is in your court. Decide what your multitasking level is going to be and make sure you are achieveing that level of multitasking in addition the the requirements of Level 3 before you move on to the next round. I'll be making more videos, as I think they are the best way to explain these things. Until now, I hope that answers your question. If not, feel free to follow up :D | ||
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Siemon16
Netherlands5 Posts
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MstrJinbo
United States1251 Posts
What community members think about TheJaKaTaK: Andre (Gretorp) Hengchua: + Show Spoiler + William, co-founder GLHF Magazine: + Show Spoiler + Trump: + Show Spoiler + Infinity Seven's Sanddbox + Show Spoiler + I apologize in advance if this list is not long enough, It is very difficult to get in contact with the big community figures. It would help if I knew who half these people were. This is mostly a nitpick on the presentation as I think it is great you are reaching out to community figures. But I know Gretorp (good catch by the way). I know sandbox and even if I didn't he is part of a known and respected team iS. Who is Trump? And why should I care what William has to say on the matter? | ||
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JaKaTaKSc2
United States2787 Posts
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MstrJinbo
United States1251 Posts
On September 27 2012 05:16 JaKaTaK wrote: Haven't been doing this for very long, those are the people with a reputation as community figures that support me currently. The list will get bigger, and more legit, but it'll take time. As some general feedback. Putting the fullnames instead of just the handle would improve things. If they are a pro player, identify them as a player. Also Identify what organization/team they are with. | ||
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