EPT[D] Grubby on Void Rays - Page 5
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orBitual
United States96 Posts
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Elp
Netherlands86 Posts
On May 05 2012 19:50 freetgy wrote: ofc. there is a second level of charge (the one where the laser beams connect) but your right, my calculation wasn't correct it is 7 full dmg ticks (just rechecked it now) (may it has been changed back when voidrays were nerfed) So a voidray does actually need to attack 7 times deal each time full dmg before the unit dies to reach precharge lvl. 7 full dmg ticks = +0 Voidray can only charge up a unit that has minimum = 7*6 = 42 hp this means charging on probes doesn't work because 42dmg > 40hp of a probe while a scv allows for this you can prove this by letting a +1 Voidray attack a reaper (voidray does 7 attacks á 7dmg = 49dmg) and gets charged +2 Voidrays vs. 1 marines with combat shield = 7 attacks á 8 dmg = 56 dmg vs. 55hp (marine dies before 7.th full 7 dmg is dealt) to prove this right we would need a unit that dies within 7 times full dmg of a voidray ( and look if a voidray charges up (after the 7.th attack is finished and can change the unit or with the start of the 8.th attack on the same unit) this means on light 7*6 = 42 7*7 = 49 7*8 = 56 7*9 = 63 on armor 7*10 = 70 7*11 = 77 7*12 = 84 7*12 = 91 I see what you mean now with the 2nd level. I did some more testing and came up with this: -Like you said it takes 7 attacks to get to the 2nd level, so the 8th shot is 2nd lvl. -Then it takes another 6 attacks to get to the 3rd level. (attacks: 8,9,10,11,12,13). So the 14th attack is level 3. -However, when you switch target during lvl2, you get a penalty and it takes longer to get to lvl 3. --I tested this with Observers, Reapers and SCV's. Attacking SCV's reaches lvl 3 at the 17th shot, Observers at the 18th shot and Reapers at the 19th shot. The penalty ranges from 3 to 5 attacks, I don't understand why there is a difference. Its probably related to left over damage, but attacking the Observer means the Voidray does full damage every attack (since 60 hp can be divided by 6 without left over) and it takes longer to charge then when it attacks SCV's which does include attacks that only do half damage. This part i havent figured out yet. | ||
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Baum
Germany1010 Posts
On May 05 2012 22:38 Darkomicron wrote: Because the voidray damage upgrade will have an adverse effect if you can't charge up on everything. I don't necessarily think that a voidray has to be able to charge up on a zergling. But a damage upgrade should always benefit the unit. What I proposed fixes the problem and makes upgraded voids better than unupgraded voids in every situation. Also, focus firing is bad for voidrays, because it will give less chance to charge them up. The unit will die too quickly. If you change the way in which it charges up, you will only encourage focus firing, because then there is no disadvantage to microing your void rays. As I stated earlier there are few situations in which you would implement Void Rays into your main army composition and they have nothing to do with Void Rays not being able to charge up on lings or marines or other lower hp units. What you are proposing is horrendously overpowered. The way Void Rays work right now they don't scale well with upgrades we got that now but this is not a good reason for changing them in a way that would buff them immensely even without upgrades. | ||
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treekiller
United States236 Posts
Another solution would be to make charge dependent on how much damage the ray does, independent of time. This needs to be tested some more. For example, what if we have +3 vs +0. Does it matter then? What happens with 10 vrs? 20? What can be done to micro them what if they are attacking other targets? For which targets does this matter? | ||
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Akinokaze
Australia326 Posts
Small example against non-armored from lv1 to lv2 charge: + Show Spoiler + +0 Weapons 6hits*6dmg = 36 dmg => lv2 charge +1 Weapons 6hits*7dmg = 42 dmg => lv2 charge +3 Weapons 6hits*8dmg = 48 dmg => lv2 charge Let's say you require 32 dmg before going to lv2: + Show Spoiler + +0 Weapons 6hits*6dmg = 36 dmg => lv2 charge +1 Weapons 5hits*7dmg = 35 dmg => lv2 charge +3 Weapons 4hits*8dmg = 32 dmg => lv2 charge The numbers would require a lot of tweaking of course to avoid being outright OP, especially against armored and massive (could have a 2nd set of requirements but that might be too complicated for Blizzard). Edit: Totally did not miss the post above me | ||
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Darkomicron
Netherlands216 Posts
On May 05 2012 22:51 orBitual wrote: Does this really require any change at all? Why can't you just use this information to figure out when/when not to get upgrades based on how the underlying mechanics work? Most players choose to get upgrades based on their usefulness... If it's not useful to upgrade void rays when massing them... then don't. Of course it requires change! If you want to play with air units as a protoss in the late game you will definitely need the upgrades for, for instance, carriers. Right now, it's nearly impossible to use void rays in an army. The only time you see them often is with stargate harass against zerg. Now, if you let the upgrades actually benefit the void ray, we might see some tactics involving blink stalkers and voidrays into a lategame composition that allows for carriers. One of the problem with carriers is that they are unupgraded when you build them. Fixing the upgrades for voidrays basically paves the way for new air strategies for protoss. Also, it makes no sense that upgrades would make a unit worse. That solely should be a reason to 'fix' this. On May 05 2012 23:13 Baum wrote: As I stated earlier there are few situations in which you would implement Void Rays into your main army composition and they have nothing to do with Void Rays not being able to charge up on lings or marines or other lower hp units. What you are proposing is horrendously overpowered. The way Void Rays work right now they don't scale well with upgrades we got that now but this is not a good reason for changing them in a way that would buff them immensely even without upgrades. This is all about numbers. The void ray has to be balanced of course, but the mechanic of charging being changed has nothing to do with balance. Just like everything else in starcraft, it has to be tested and adjusted. Changing the mechanic will allow for upgrades to benefit the voidray, if he does too much damage because of easier charging, then reduce the charge damage a little. Problem solved! No reason not to use a different charging mechanic. On May 05 2012 23:30 treekiller wrote: Couldnt you charge the rays on something? Of course, but in many situations void rays can be powered in a battle. It's weird that if you upgrade your voidrays you will have to do more pre-battle micro and preparation to be able to use them. ----------- Another idea is to let the voidray get +1 damage per attack, with a maximum of +10. Of course, numbers need tweaking. Or give the voidray an energy bar 0->12 energy. Each time damage ticks it gets +1 energy. If it's out of combat the energy will drain. Make 12 energy fully charged, and 7 charge level 2. The whole idea behind changing the way it charges up is to make sure the upgrade gives benefit instead of how it is right now. | ||
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Silentenigma
Turkey2037 Posts
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
On May 06 2012 00:06 Darkomicron wrote: Of course it requires change! If you want to play with air units as a protoss in the late game you will definitely need the upgrades for, for instance, carriers. Right now, it's nearly impossible to use void rays in an army. The only time you see them often is with stargate harass against zerg. Now, if you let the upgrades actually benefit the void ray, we might see some tactics involving blink stalkers and voidrays into a lategame composition that allows for carriers. One of the problem with carriers is that they are unupgraded when you build them. Fixing the upgrades for voidrays basically paves the way for new air strategies for protoss. Also, it makes no sense that upgrades would make a unit worse. That solely should be a reason to 'fix' this. This is all about numbers. The void ray has to be balanced of course, but the mechanic of charging being changed has nothing to do with balance. Just like everything else in starcraft, it has to be tested and adjusted. Changing the mechanic will allow for upgrades to benefit the voidray, if he does too much damage because of easier charging, then reduce the charge damage a little. Problem solved! No reason not to use a different charging mechanic. Of course, but in many situations void rays can be powered in a battle. It's weird that if you upgrade your voidrays you will have to do more pre-battle micro and preparation to be able to use them. ----------- Another idea is to let the voidray get +1 damage per attack, with a maximum of +10. Of course, numbers need tweaking. Or give the voidray an energy bar 0->12 energy. Each time damage ticks it gets +1 energy. If it's out of combat the energy will drain. Make 12 energy fully charged, and 7 charge level 2. The whole idea behind changing the way it charges up is to make sure the upgrade gives benefit instead of how it is right now. voids don't get worse with upgrades at all.. only massive amount of voids in this particular instance get potentially worse with an upgrade.. In any real game scenario voids with upgrades just do better. Voids are not something you want to mass anyway so the entire point is non-problematic | ||
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Nuclease
United States1049 Posts
I mean, this is true....very interesting and very funny, to be frank. I think VRs are meant to be Capital-killers, though. It's not a design flaw by Blizz, because if they attack what they are meant to attack (Ultras, BCs, Thors, etc.) then they will have time to charge up and will do more damage for it. Also this experiment neglects armor or shield upgrades. So, assuming your opponent is scaling with you on upgrades, it should work out to your advantage to get upgrades. | ||
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Elp
Netherlands86 Posts
On May 05 2012 19:57 Darkomicron wrote: Differences: 1 upgraded void ray can not charge on the following units which did give 1 unupgraded void ray a charge: SCV (1 charge less) ---> unable to charge up on Marine (1 charge less) ---> unable to charge up on Marauder (1 charge less) Hellion (1 charge less) Sentry (1 charge less) ---> unable to charge up on High Templar (1 charge less) ---> unable to charge up on Hydralisk (1 charge less) 2 upgraded void rays can not charge on the following units which did give 2 unupgraded void rays a charge: Marauder (1 charge less for 1 voidray) ---> unable to charge up on with both rays Hellion (1 charge less) ---> unable to charge up on Banshee (1 charge less) Raven (1 charge less) High Templar (1 charge less for 1 voidray) ---> unable to charge up on with both rays Zealot (1 charge less) Void Ray (1 charge less) Sentry (1 charge less) ---> unable to charge up on Hydralisk (1 charge less for 1 voidray) ---> unable to charge up on with both rays Some of these conclusions are incorrect and others are unfair. A +1 Voidray still charges against Sentries and Templars, it just doesn't charge on a single unit. This doesn't mean its performance decreases, in fact a +1 Voidray kills multiple Sentries and Templars faster than an unupgraded Voidray. So the upgrade works just fine here. The downside of Voidray upgrades only applies when the Voidray loses its ability to charge to it's 2nd lvl. This means that negative effects of Voidray weapons upgrade only apply to units that have 49HP (or less) for +1, 56HP (or less) for +2 and 63HP (or less) for +3 (light units). For armored its 70HP, 80HP and 90HP. If the unit has higher HP, it means a higher upgrade level leads to better performance. So this excludes from your list: Marauder, Hellion, Sentry, High Templar and Hydralisk. Leaving only a disadvantage vs SCV's and Marines. Second, you have to consider that upgrades on the side of the opponent can have a positive influence on Voidray performance. If the opponent has +1 armor, you can charge on Probes and Droness. It can also apply to Zerglings and Broodlings at greater upgrade levels. In a wide range of situations the presence of Armor upgrades on the side of the opponent can increase Voidray performance. The negative effects of Protoss Air Weapons Upgrade and the sometimes positive effects of opponent armor/shield upgrades on Voidray performance are extremely situational. Because it's so heavily dependent on the situation you cant draw any ingame conclusions from this, you can only recognize that the Voidray mechanics behave in a funny way. | ||
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Friend23
Poland270 Posts
they should be able to charge up regardless of switching targets, so that you always have +x dmg y secs into the fight thats how it should be right from the beginnig and something the designers forgot: you want to focus fire - read: youll never be able to charge up when focusing fire if you have more than z vrs | ||
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Sakagami
United States56 Posts
Right now the voidray takes a certain amount of time to charge....let's say it takes 6 seconds i'm not exactly sure the exact time. And the voidray does idk 12 dmg to armored? This is just an example so lets say it does 12 dmg to armored. Therefore instead of having it charge on time instead why don't we do it based on damage? does 12 dmg to armored and takes 6 seconds to charge = Lets say by the time it gets charged it does around 80 dmg. Instead of having it take 6 seconds to charge why don't we just make it so once it does 80 dmg it gets fully charged. That way with +1 air it charges faster. | ||
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Darkomicron
Netherlands216 Posts
On May 06 2012 01:24 Elp wrote: Some of these conclusions are incorrect and others are unfair. A +1 Voidray still charges against Sentries and Templars, it just doesn't charge on a single unit. This doesn't mean its performance decreases, in fact a +1 Voidray kills multiple Sentries and Templars faster than an unupgraded Voidray. So the upgrade works just fine here. The downside of Voidray upgrades only applies when the Voidray loses its ability to charge to it's 2nd lvl. This means that negative effects of Voidray weapons upgrade only apply to units that have 49HP (or less) for +1, 56HP (or less) for +2 and 63HP (or less) for +3 (light units). For armored its 70HP, 80HP and 90HP. If the unit has higher HP, it means a higher upgrade level leads to better performance. So this excludes from your list: Marauder, Hellion, Sentry, High Templar and Hydralisk. Leaving only a disadvantage vs SCV's and Marines. Second, you have to consider that upgrades on the side of the opponent can have a positive influence on Voidray performance. If the opponent has +1 armor, you can charge on Probes and Droness. It can also apply to Zerglings and Broodlings at greater upgrade levels. In a wide range of situations the presence of Armor upgrades on the side of the opponent can increase Voidray performance. The negative effects of Protoss Air Weapons Upgrade and the sometimes positive effects of opponent armor/shield upgrades on Voidray performance are extremely situational. Because it's so heavily dependent on the situation you cant draw any ingame conclusions from this, you can only recognize that the Voidray mechanics behave in a funny way. Oh, you're right. Sorry, my bad. I fixed it in the post now, indeed they do charge to level 2. Upgrades should always have a positive influence for you, and a negative influence on your opponent. That's the whole idea behind doing an upgrade. You want to specialize in a certain type of unit, and they have to be stronger so your opponent stands less of a chance, right? Therefore, it makes no sense that void ray upgrades help your opponent, or armor upgrades improve void ray performance. It goes both ways. Just focusing on the void ray upgrades because it has to do with protoss air, which is a tactic you never see in a serious game. --> see my previous post regarding carrier tactics. On May 06 2012 00:56 Markwerf wrote: voids don't get worse with upgrades at all.. only massive amount of voids in this particular instance get potentially worse with an upgrade.. In any real game scenario voids with upgrades just do better. Voids are not something you want to mass anyway so the entire point is non-problematic Please read my post on the previous page regarding charge levels with void rays on units. I took 1 and 2 void rays. It demonstrates that it does in fact have a negative effect. Even against an ultralisk, if you have 7 voidrays with +1 focus firing on ultras, they will not charge. Why not mass voids? Because protoss air is not really worth it right now --> if the upgrades work better, you can incorporate it into builds, see my previous post regarding carrier use. | ||
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Evenfl0w
United Kingdom16 Posts
Useful mathematical modelling of this is quite difficult because it depends on exactly what the VRs are attacking and the clustering of VRs. One mitigating factor is that upgrades will improve damage output of the VR cluster for the uncharged period and this period might be where most of the damage occurs in many secenarios so the overall effect on damage output would could be positive. It might be worth playing around with if you wanted to know, for example, how many VRs from a VR cluster to focus on a Thor in order to get charged. How many for a supply depot etc at different upgrade levels. | ||
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BronzeKnee
United States5218 Posts
On May 05 2012 12:21 mskaa wrote: It does however tell something about how bad the attack upgrade is, because of the charge mechanic. 126 to 120 is only 5% more, and it doesnt even win!.. Wouldnt you agree that an upgrade should be worth more than that? No I do not agree. I have a strong feeling that if you had 126 BC's with no upgrades vs 120 with a +1 attack, the 126 still win. I in fact guarantee the win with Yatamoto Cannon, and it is likely they win even without it. It is the nature of expensive powerful units. Having more of them is generally better than having upgrades. How many times I have done a 2 base Colossus all-in vs Terran when they have 2-1 and I have 2 with 0-0 Colossus and I still win? Again the nature of expensive powerful units. | ||
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Darkomicron
Netherlands216 Posts
On May 06 2012 02:20 BronzeKnee wrote: No I do not agree. I have a strong feeling that if you had 126 BC's with no upgrades vs 120 with a +1 attack, the 126 still win. I in fact guarantee the win with Yatamoto Cannon, and it is likely they win even without it. It is the nature of expensive powerful units. Having more of them is generally better than having upgrades. How many times I have done a 2 base Colossus all-in vs Terran when they have 2-1 and I have 2 with 0-0 Colossus and I still win? Again the nature of expensive powerful units. Of course you can win without upgrades if you have colossi against pure MMM. Colossi just are great dealing with MMM, but the terran certainly has a huge advantage if he has a concave or spread out units. Your example is not very good. Also, I don't like going offtopic, but here's 126 BC vs 120 BC with +1 for you: http://drop.sc/172262 42 BC's with +1 left. Upgrades make, and should make, a HUGE difference. That's the problem with voids, upgrades have a negative effect sometimes, which is silly. | ||
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Elp
Netherlands86 Posts
On May 06 2012 02:05 Darkomicron wrote: Oh, you're right. Sorry, my bad. I fixed it in the post now, indeed they do charge to level 2. Upgrades should always have a positive influence for you, and a negative influence on your opponent. That's the whole idea behind doing an upgrade. You want to specialize in a certain type of unit, and they have to be stronger so your opponent stands less of a chance, right? Therefore, it makes no sense that void ray upgrades help your opponent, or armor upgrades improve void ray performance. It goes both ways. Just focusing on the void ray upgrades because it has to do with protoss air, which is a tactic you never see in a serious game. --> see my previous post regarding carrier tactics. Yes, those are all valid points. However, the changes to the Voidray that were suggested in this thread to counteract these weird mechanics are straight up Voidray boosts. I pointed out the positive effects because, first of all, they exist and to offer some perspective. The mechanics may be weird, but that is not a valid reason to improve (or nerf) the Voidray. | ||
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mexicanfashion
Mexico35 Posts
(Even when haven't reach the next stage, like if a void ray made 5 hits but kept the "charged memory" of those 5 hits 2 secs so it would reach next stage when give one more hit to another probe) | ||
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BronzeKnee
United States5218 Posts
On May 06 2012 02:37 Darkomicron wrote: Of course you can win without upgrades if you have colossi against pure MMM. Colossi just are great dealing with MMM, but the terran certainly has a huge advantage if he has a concave or spread out units. Your example is not very good. Also, I don't like going offtopic, but here's 126 BC vs 120 BC with +1 for you: http://drop.sc/172262 42 BC's with +1 left. Upgrades make, and should make, a HUGE difference. That's the problem with voids, upgrades have a negative effect sometimes, which is silly. I assume that was without Yatamoto? I understand that there are situations where having no upgrade is better than +1, but those situations will be few and far between. | ||
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Darkomicron
Netherlands216 Posts
On May 06 2012 02:44 Elp wrote: Yes, those are all valid points. However, the changes to the Voidray that were suggested in this thread to counteract these weird mechanics are straight up Voidray boosts. I pointed out the positive effects because, first of all, they exist and to offer some perspective. The mechanics may be weird, but that is not a valid reason to improve (or nerf) the Voidray. Indeed. It's a reason to fix it. Like I said before, the rest is a matter of numbers and balancing. In such a competetive game as SC2 things should make perfect sense. You have to react and actions you make need to have a reliable outcome. If you blink your stalkers, you know how far they'll go. Imagine if they suddenly blink a lesser distance. That's not what you want. Although the void ray may not be influenced greatly, these 'weird' occurrences do not belong in the game. On May 06 2012 02:50 mexicanfashion wrote: Correct me if I am wrong but, wouldn't make the charged void ray stay charged for 2 seconds longer fix this? (Even when haven't reach the next stage, like if a void ray made 5 hits but kept the "charged memory" of those 5 hits 2 secs so it would reach next stage when give one more hit to another probe) Yeah, if each attack is stored then that would indeed fix these problems. It doesn't really matter how, if you use damage instead of number of attacks. Keep the attacks stored for X seconds, resetting the counter when the void ray attacks again. Or the energy system I brought up earlier. They all work and would result in a better void ray unit. | ||
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