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Why match up 126 vs 120? The upgrade costs 100-100 which isn't even the cost of a single Void Ray, so why do the unupgraded Void Rays get 6 extra on the side?
Furthermore, Void Rays can fully charge on each other whether or not they are 0:0 or have +1 attack, thus the premise of the theory isn't actually tested by the test. The premise is that when you upgrade a Void Ray it doesn't get a chance to charge up because of how fast it kills things, which means this should be tested against a lower HP unit to see if the Void Ray doesn't get a chance to charge up, thereby doing less damage in a large battle. Hydralisks might be a good choice here, but I'm not sure if Voids fully charge on them or not.
To prove this theory, Grubby needs to find a unit which the Void Ray kills right after fully charging, then test it with upgrades to see if it allows the Void to kill the unit before it fully charges, thus meaning it takes longer for the Void to fully charge, and thus down lower damage over time. Either way the Void Ray should charge sooner after changing targets, thus the benefit would be very situational and short lived.
And either way Grubby has no idea what he is talking about. I am actually shocked you guys are entertaining such a theory...
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Well it´s true but if I am in a fight I would choose the upgraded ones haha 
Greetings.
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I'm not exactly sure how 126 unupgraded VRs > 120 upgraded VRs can be called "evidence." If you're trying to prove air upgrades reduce overall damage at high numbers then wouldn't you use equal number of VRs on both sides? Also wouldn't it be better to use an amount of VRs that is actually possible to get in a real game?
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This would suggest that going air armor would be more effective then weapons.. hmm.
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whenever i've got more than 2 void rays i'm sittin there making sure they're not shooting the same thing. really ineffectual as for 5 seconds you either micro the rest of your junk or you're dealing with a bunch of chandeliers. not really sure what is to be done with it though, maybe add another level of the charge that can transfer over.. like not one that does more damage but one that keeps the previous charge so you don't drop off back to zero upon re-target. though this would make dealing with weird VR switches in pvp harder to deal with on the fly
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On May 05 2012 06:50 Alejandrisha wrote:
whenever i've got more than 2 void rays i'm sittin there making sure they're not shooting the same thing. really ineffectual as for 5 seconds you either micro the rest of your junk or you're dealing with a bunch of chandeliers. not really sure what is to be done with it though, maybe add another level of the charge that can transfer over.. like not one that does more damage but one that keeps the previous charge so you don't drop off back to zero upon re-target. though this would make dealing with weird VR switches in pvp harder to deal with on the fly
This cracked me up. Well, I guess this means that mass upgraded VRs isn't a legit strat..
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On May 05 2012 05:20 BronzeKnee wrote:
Why match up 126 vs 120? The upgrade costs 100-100 which isn't even the cost of a single Void Ray, so why do the unupgraded Void Rays get 6 extra on the side?
Furthermore, Void Rays can fully charge on each other whether or not they are 0:0 or have +1 attack, thus the premise of the theory isn't actually tested by the test. The premise is that when you upgrade a Void Ray it doesn't get a chance to charge up because of how fast it kills things, which means this should be tested against a lower HP unit to see if the Void Ray doesn't get a chance to charge up, thereby doing less damage in a large battle. Hydralisks might be a good choice here, but I'm not sure if Voids fully charge on them or not.
To prove this theory, Grubby needs to find a unit which the Void Ray kills right after fully charging, then test it with upgrades to see if it allows the Void to kill the unit before it fully charges, thus meaning it takes longer for the Void to fully charge, and thus down lower damage over time. Either way the Void Ray should charge sooner after changing targets, thus the benefit would be very situational and short lived.
And either way Grubby has no idea what he is talking about. I am actually shocked you guys are entertaining such a theory...
Ehm the cost really isnt the point here... What do you think wins: 100 3/3 marines vs 200 0/0 marines.. But omg 200 marines is 5000 minerals - the 3/3 upgrade cost more.. Why they get so many???
If an upgrade was only worth its actual cost in ONE unit, there would be no reason to get it.
Furthermore, 120 voidrays will probably not attack 120 different voidrays on the other side, but will attack a lot of the same voids. That means the voidrays actually wont charge up coz they die too fast.. Ofc if you have 10k+ apm you can individually make everyone of your voids attack a different enemy voidray, but for the rest of us mortals we will have to make due with several voidrays attacking each other and thus not getting charged up.
Either way you have no idea what your talking about... Im actually shocked you are entertaining us with such a false theory.
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void rays charge by attacking for a set amount of seconds on one target, right?
they could change it so that instead of being like "attack for x seconds" to be it gaining points or whatever toward a charge, ie: 1% charge/.0333 seconds = 30% charge/1 second. void rays not attacking can have their charge degrade at a rate of 25%/second (to prevent potential abusive strategies) while not attacking and if they do not attack for 2ish seconds lose their charge completely regardless of what %
that way if they kill their target at 90% to full charge, then they will just be 90% to full charge instead of starting over from whatever stage is previous to that
perhaps you could have a penalty of an immediate 5% loss if you stop attacking (killing something or w/e) previous to the next stage of charging (maybe like 30%, 60%, 100%) so that it would be more difficult to charge on small things like zerglings so that the void ray wouldn't be too powerful with such a change. changing the degrade rate to something less harsh like 15-20% would help balance the two factors
it is rather annoying how having your void ray fleet be initially too powerful can hurt its effectiveness in the long term. maybe a mechanic like this could really help them out
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i think that the problem would be solved if the void ray stored its current charge as well as the progress to the next level of charge, instead of only holding the charge itself. m i rite? :D
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Reminds me that on phoenixes vs phoenixes +1 shield is better than +1 armor according to me amoving 5v5 and 10v10 phoenix battles for over 30times. Wtf is going on :D ? This one has more simpler explanation tho.
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On May 05 2012 06:53 Heh_ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 06:50 Alejandrisha wrote:
whenever i've got more than 2 void rays i'm sittin there making sure they're not shooting the same thing. really ineffectual as for 5 seconds you either micro the rest of your junk or you're dealing with a bunch of chandeliers. not really sure what is to be done with it though, maybe add another level of the charge that can transfer over.. like not one that does more damage but one that keeps the previous charge so you don't drop off back to zero upon re-target. though this would make dealing with weird VR switches in pvp harder to deal with on the fly This cracked me up. Well, I guess this means that mass upgraded VRs isn't a legit strat..
Yes it is! http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=333403 
As for this thread, I wish charging was easier, I think it's a good feature in the game. In my opinion level 3 Void Rays seem too powerful and level 1 seems too weak. I make a lot of void Rays in PvZ and in Void Rays versus Corruptor battles of large numbers its pretty much impossible to find a way to micro and charge pre-battle, but the Void Rays will normally charge in battle while trading, and become extremely powerful.
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How about letting the VR charge up after a kill? Would fix it IMO.
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I have tested it and an upgrades void kills a hydra before it can charge up, while a non-upgraded void charge up just before killing the hydra, so against hydras it is better to not get the +1 upgrade. Didn't test it vs other units yet
EDIT: after checking it a bit more, I saw that most of the time the voids will attack the same hydra, and so they wont charge up so fast. This will actually reward players with good enough micro to separate the targets of their attacks, I am not sure it is possible at the very start of the battle, but as it continues I trust the pro's will be able to do it
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i don't see how killing the unit sooner can possibly detrimental to your cause
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Like others have noted, this doesn't even test Grubby's hypothesis, and a way to test it would be to have 120 0-0-0 Void Rays vs. 120 1-0-0 Void Rays.
As for this...
Ehm the cost really isnt the point here... What do you think wins: 100 3/3 marines vs 200 0/0 marines.. But omg 200 marines is 5000 minerals - the 3/3 upgrade cost more.. Why they get so many???
If an upgrade was only worth its actual cost in ONE unit, there would be no reason to get it.
...the hypothesis has nothing to do with cost or equalizing cost by adding more Void Rays to the 0-0-0 side. The hypothesis is if Void Rays may do less total damage if they're upgraded in attack. . All we know from Grubby's experiment is that 120 1-0-0 VRs did less total damage than 126 0-0-0 VRs in one iteration.
We want to know (Grubby wants to know) if 120 1-0-0 VRs do less total damage than 120 0-0-0 VRs.
So from the evidence of this thread I know now that 50% of gamers are always wrong when they post in a forum...+ Show Spoiler +
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of course 126 0:0 VRs beat 120 1:0 VRs. having more shit than the other guy is how you win in RTS
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So, to summarize this thread:
Grubby feels like there is not enough A-move potential in Void Rays right now
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I tested this against Probes and SCV's and found some funny stuff.
Voidrays will never charge up against Probes, but will charge up against SCV's due to the 5 extra hitpoints.
When you upgrade the Voidray weapon attack, it will also never charge against SCV's. I tested this against 16 SCV's, and the non-upgraded Voidray kills them about 5 seconds faster on about a run that lasted about 60 seconds in total. It's the difference between 7 attack (6+1) and 8 attack (0 upgrade with 2nd charge).
Looks like a solid theory.
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upgrade attack on VR's should lower the time to charge.
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On May 05 2012 06:56 mskaa wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 05:20 BronzeKnee wrote:
Why match up 126 vs 120? The upgrade costs 100-100 which isn't even the cost of a single Void Ray, so why do the unupgraded Void Rays get 6 extra on the side?
... Ehm the cost really isnt the point here... What do you think wins: 100 3/3 marines vs 200 0/0 marines.. But omg 200 marines is 5000 minerals - the 3/3 upgrade cost more.. Why they get so many??? If an upgrade was only worth its actual cost in ONE unit, there would be no reason to get it. Either way you have no idea what your talking about... Im actually shocked you are entertaining us with such a false theory.
He means that it does not make sense to test 120 vs 126, since the 6 extra unupgraded is better to have than the upgrades. And so he is confused as to why Grubby had 126. And, one explanation he sees is that Grubby reasoned that the money that did not go to upgrades should go to extra void rays. But, as BK wrote, the upgrade cost does not even warrant one extra void ray, and so the rationale for the 6 extra is still a mystery.
On May 05 2012 06:56 mskaa wrote:
Either way you have no idea what your talking about... Im actually shocked you are entertaining us with such a false theory.
Oops. Offensive gg but it turned out you were behind and lost.
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EPT
