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On May 08 2012 22:54 ckolev wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 22:41 Felnarion wrote:On May 08 2012 22:32 ckolev wrote:
Also if we look at the VR damage (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Void_Ray), it actually has a very high rate of fire so it scales even better with attack upgrades.
10-16 VS armored with no upgrades
11-18 VS armored +1W
12-20 VS armored +2W
13-22 VS armored +3W
So even if with +1 it might be a bad idea to do a timing push, with +2/+3 VRs become better. I'm kind of at a loss at this point for how you can defend it. It's not about how much damage it does. If the overall damage needs to be nerfed, whatever. The problem is, a unit that can be in a scenario where it does less damage after an upgrade (all other things, control, position, etc being equal) is bad unit design. We all understand that, if you charge up before going in, then the upgraded damage is better, but that isn't always an option. Even if its one out of 1000 games, and in this one game, a guy has a void ray which he sends at a colossus he previously damaged, a colossus protected by a couple units...there is a scenario where the colossus has a certain amount of HP that doesn't allow the VR to charge, and therefore causes the VR to die before killing off the units. It is essentially punishing a player, even in very limited circumstances, for getting an upgrade for his units. That should never, in a well-designed game, be the case. I don't know what more there is to say than that. OK you need to understand the difference between damage and DPS. What you are talking about is DPS - damage per second. I'm talking about damage. What grubby has also noticed is that the DPS of non-upgraded VRs is lower tan that of the upgraded. Mathematically that's not possible. the +1W gives 10% more DPS. 126VR - 120 VR = 6VR (5%). So the upgraded VRs have more DPS aslo. The problem here comes from the fact how the VRs charge up. If the upgraded VRs target the same targets, they will kill it, before charging up, but if each of them fires at an individual target, all will charge up. Same for he others. In order to complete the test properly you need smaller numbers, but keep the 5% difference. Also you will have to make sure that each VR on both sides fire at individual targets or couple of VRs from each side target the same target (3VRs from each side target 1). This test is incredible difficult to achieve. If someone can do it, it will put a end to this discussion with solid facts with no random chance.
As I said, the test is completely and utterly meaningless. I mean, it was unscientific, and who cares, mutas suffer the same problems, battles between them tend to be hugely random. I'm not sure why you're still talking about this specific test when I, and others, have clearly said that its difficult to draw a conslusion from it.
A much better test, that you've blatantly ignored, is that an unupgraded VR kills SCVs much faster than an upgraded void ray.
You can stand back and say "Well dur, they're meant for killing big things" but that's not the point, the point isn't that they're SCVs, that the VR doesn't get its bonus against them, or that they don't have large HP pools. The point is, there are fights where a player is PUNISHED for upgrading attack.
It's not as if we're comparing two different units. It's not as if the VR is made for killing big things and we're comparing it to how fast marines kill small things...
I understand the concept that a VR is supposed to be shitty at killing small things. The problem is that when you increase its damage it doesn't make sense for it to get even worse at it.
Read that last part multiple times. If you still don't get it, and you can't come up with something mind blowing, then I've had my fill.
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For units such as ultralisks then an attack increase will actually be noticeable. However, on smaller, less HP units, the attack upgrade may not actually be much benefit in a drawn out battle. 1v1 the upgrade will do well but if, for instance, you need to use them to kill off multiply broodlords you might as well wait to charge up since that will amount to more damage in the overall battle.
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On May 08 2012 21:24 Elp wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 21:11 Goolpsy wrote:
The point of the change was to make sure the VRs charge alittle faster when they get their upgrades, hence you cannot exclude the weapon upgrades. The point of the discussion was how to make it NOT charge slower when upgraded. That isn't the same as how to make it charge faster.
I concede it was a bad wording, but if you look at the proposed mechanics thats exactly whats going to happen.
The VR would be able to charge-up on the same targets regardless of the upgrade (albeit alittle faster)
If this skewes the overall DPS distribution too much - because it charges 0,6 sec faster - this is not really a problem, as it can easily be balanced out.
To summarize: The *'pre-mitigation' damage charge up* solution is NOT flawed. It is however just ONE of MANY possible solutions to fix the problem.
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On May 08 2012 23:05 Felnarion wrote:
SCVs, that the VR doesn't get its bonus against them, or that they don't have large HP pools. The point is, there are fights where a player is PUNISHED for upgrading attack.
Who cares? If your enemies units die faster at first, that's probably more helpful. I'd rather void rays remain interesting. If a player lost a very close fight because he had air attack upgrades rather than not, that would be very interesting for viewers and commentators. It would also be instructive for the player.
Players have to deal with that type of thing all the time. For example, a bunch of marines grouped together do the most damage while taking the least against zerglings, but if aoe enters the picture, the game changes.
Yes, I know the analogy isn't perfect, but the point is that players have to make a thoughtful decision, as opposed to not.
On a related note, what happened to when void rays did more damage in larger number--the "Death Star effect," if you will?
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On May 08 2012 23:05 Felnarion wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 22:54 ckolev wrote:On May 08 2012 22:41 Felnarion wrote:On May 08 2012 22:32 ckolev wrote:
Also if we look at the VR damage (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Void_Ray), it actually has a very high rate of fire so it scales even better with attack upgrades.
10-16 VS armored with no upgrades
11-18 VS armored +1W
12-20 VS armored +2W
13-22 VS armored +3W
So even if with +1 it might be a bad idea to do a timing push, with +2/+3 VRs become better. I'm kind of at a loss at this point for how you can defend it. It's not about how much damage it does. If the overall damage needs to be nerfed, whatever. The problem is, a unit that can be in a scenario where it does less damage after an upgrade (all other things, control, position, etc being equal) is bad unit design. We all understand that, if you charge up before going in, then the upgraded damage is better, but that isn't always an option. Even if its one out of 1000 games, and in this one game, a guy has a void ray which he sends at a colossus he previously damaged, a colossus protected by a couple units...there is a scenario where the colossus has a certain amount of HP that doesn't allow the VR to charge, and therefore causes the VR to die before killing off the units. It is essentially punishing a player, even in very limited circumstances, for getting an upgrade for his units. That should never, in a well-designed game, be the case. I don't know what more there is to say than that. OK you need to understand the difference between damage and DPS. What you are talking about is DPS - damage per second. I'm talking about damage. What grubby has also noticed is that the DPS of non-upgraded VRs is lower tan that of the upgraded. Mathematically that's not possible. the +1W gives 10% more DPS. 126VR - 120 VR = 6VR (5%). So the upgraded VRs have more DPS aslo. The problem here comes from the fact how the VRs charge up. If the upgraded VRs target the same targets, they will kill it, before charging up, but if each of them fires at an individual target, all will charge up. Same for he others. In order to complete the test properly you need smaller numbers, but keep the 5% difference. Also you will have to make sure that each VR on both sides fire at individual targets or couple of VRs from each side target the same target (3VRs from each side target 1). This test is incredible difficult to achieve. If someone can do it, it will put a end to this discussion with solid facts with no random chance. As I said, the test is completely and utterly meaningless. I mean, it was unscientific, and who cares, mutas suffer the same problems, battles between them tend to be hugely random. I'm not sure why you're still talking about this specific test when I, and others, have clearly said that its difficult to draw a conslusion from it. A much better test, that you've blatantly ignored, is that an unupgraded VR kills SCVs much faster than an upgraded void ray. You can stand back and say "Well dur, they're meant for killing big things" but that's not the point, the point isn't that they're SCVs, that the VR doesn't get its bonus against them, or that they don't have large HP pools. The point is, there are fights where a player is PUNISHED for upgrading attack. It's not as if we're comparing two different units. It's not as if the VR is made for killing big things and we're comparing it to how fast marines kill small things... I understand the concept that a VR is supposed to be shitty at killing small things. The problem is that when you increase its damage it doesn't make sense for it to get even worse at it.Read that last part multiple times. If you still don't get it, and you can't come up with something mind blowing, then I've had my fill.
Saying one and the same thing in multiple posts really doesn't help you.
So to summarize - VRs scale better against massive and armored units, preferable with bigger HP pools. They kind of sick against small light or no armor type units. The fact that +1W makes a unit worst sounds really redundant. But if thats the case with a unique attack unit like the VR - this means the unit is not used properly.
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On May 05 2012 04:33 Natespank wrote:
Grubby thinking!
It would be nice if stargate units weren't useless for most of the game besides opening timing attacks against zerg.
Except for the fact that all stargate units counter all zerg units except the hydra which is completely useless for any other purpose than defending protoss air attacks.
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On May 09 2012 00:02 ckolev wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 23:05 Felnarion wrote:On May 08 2012 22:54 ckolev wrote:On May 08 2012 22:41 Felnarion wrote:On May 08 2012 22:32 ckolev wrote:
Also if we look at the VR damage (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Void_Ray), it actually has a very high rate of fire so it scales even better with attack upgrades.
10-16 VS armored with no upgrades
11-18 VS armored +1W
12-20 VS armored +2W
13-22 VS armored +3W
So even if with +1 it might be a bad idea to do a timing push, with +2/+3 VRs become better. I'm kind of at a loss at this point for how you can defend it. It's not about how much damage it does. If the overall damage needs to be nerfed, whatever. The problem is, a unit that can be in a scenario where it does less damage after an upgrade (all other things, control, position, etc being equal) is bad unit design. We all understand that, if you charge up before going in, then the upgraded damage is better, but that isn't always an option. Even if its one out of 1000 games, and in this one game, a guy has a void ray which he sends at a colossus he previously damaged, a colossus protected by a couple units...there is a scenario where the colossus has a certain amount of HP that doesn't allow the VR to charge, and therefore causes the VR to die before killing off the units. It is essentially punishing a player, even in very limited circumstances, for getting an upgrade for his units. That should never, in a well-designed game, be the case. I don't know what more there is to say than that. OK you need to understand the difference between damage and DPS. What you are talking about is DPS - damage per second. I'm talking about damage. What grubby has also noticed is that the DPS of non-upgraded VRs is lower tan that of the upgraded. Mathematically that's not possible. the +1W gives 10% more DPS. 126VR - 120 VR = 6VR (5%). So the upgraded VRs have more DPS aslo. The problem here comes from the fact how the VRs charge up. If the upgraded VRs target the same targets, they will kill it, before charging up, but if each of them fires at an individual target, all will charge up. Same for he others. In order to complete the test properly you need smaller numbers, but keep the 5% difference. Also you will have to make sure that each VR on both sides fire at individual targets or couple of VRs from each side target the same target (3VRs from each side target 1). This test is incredible difficult to achieve. If someone can do it, it will put a end to this discussion with solid facts with no random chance. As I said, the test is completely and utterly meaningless. I mean, it was unscientific, and who cares, mutas suffer the same problems, battles between them tend to be hugely random. I'm not sure why you're still talking about this specific test when I, and others, have clearly said that its difficult to draw a conslusion from it. A much better test, that you've blatantly ignored, is that an unupgraded VR kills SCVs much faster than an upgraded void ray. You can stand back and say "Well dur, they're meant for killing big things" but that's not the point, the point isn't that they're SCVs, that the VR doesn't get its bonus against them, or that they don't have large HP pools. The point is, there are fights where a player is PUNISHED for upgrading attack. It's not as if we're comparing two different units. It's not as if the VR is made for killing big things and we're comparing it to how fast marines kill small things... I understand the concept that a VR is supposed to be shitty at killing small things. The problem is that when you increase its damage it doesn't make sense for it to get even worse at it.Read that last part multiple times. If you still don't get it, and you can't come up with something mind blowing, then I've had my fill. Saying one and the same thing in multiple posts really doesn't help you. So to summarize - VRs scale better against massive and armored units, preferable with bigger HP pools. They kind of sick against small light or no armor type units. The fact that +1W makes a unit worst sounds really redundant. But if thats the case with a unique attack unit like the VR - this means the unit is not used properly.
He says the same thing because you do not seem to understand. It's not about the void ray attack, but more about the mechanic and upgrade combined.
On May 08 2012 23:49 Ansinjunger wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 23:05 Felnarion wrote:
SCVs, that the VR doesn't get its bonus against them, or that they don't have large HP pools. The point is, there are fights where a player is PUNISHED for upgrading attack.
Who cares? If your enemies units die faster at first, that's probably more helpful. I'd rather void rays remain interesting. If a player lost a very close fight because he had air attack upgrades rather than not, that would be very interesting for viewers and commentators. It would also be instructive for the player. Players have to deal with that type of thing all the time. For example, a bunch of marines grouped together do the most damage while taking the least against zerglings, but if aoe enters the picture, the game changes. Yes, I know the analogy isn't perfect, but the point is that players have to make a thoughtful decision, as opposed to not. On a related note, what happened to when void rays did more damage in larger number--the "Death Star effect," if you will?
Name a unit that gets worse in any situation, no matter how small, if +1 attack or armor is upgraded. You can't compare stacking marines being good or bad in certain situations. The void ray will never die faster, and it will always kill units. But as my post on the previous page (with replay included) proved, an unupgraded voidray will kill SCV's about 12.5% faster than an upgraded voidray. The units do not die faster, only perhaps the first 2 SCV's. So you spend 100 minerals and 100 gas, chronoboosts and time to get an upgrade... which then only hinders your ability to fight against certain units.
It's broken unit design. It's not something players choose for, it's not something that can be used to micro. The combination of trying to improve your units and the result being negative sometimes is unacceptable.
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On May 08 2012 23:49 Ansinjunger wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 23:05 Felnarion wrote:
SCVs, that the VR doesn't get its bonus against them, or that they don't have large HP pools. The point is, there are fights where a player is PUNISHED for upgrading attack.
Who cares? If your enemies units die faster at first, that's probably more helpful. I'd rather void rays remain interesting. If a player lost a very close fight because he had air attack upgrades rather than not, that would be very interesting for viewers and commentators. It would also be instructive for the player. Players have to deal with that type of thing all the time. For example, a bunch of marines grouped together do the most damage while taking the least against zerglings, but if aoe enters the picture, the game changes. Yes, I know the analogy isn't perfect, but the point is that players have to make a thoughtful decision, as opposed to not. On a related note, what happened to when void rays did more damage in larger number--the "Death Star effect," if you will?
That is embarrassingly NOT interesting in the slightest. "Well, ladies and gentleman, it looks like White-Ra actually tried a little too hard, if he just hadn't had that upgrade, he would have won that fight. Isn't it interesting that if shit made sense, White-Ra would have 5 thousand extra dollars?"
That's not at all interesting, I don't know where you're even getting the idea that it is. As for your marine comparison, way the hell out in left field. Completely unrelated. Like, so far far away that the next bit of my post is practically off-topic for having to respond to you.
The VR mechanic we're talking about is not like grouping marines together, at all, positioning plays a role in every unit's effectiveness. The VR mechanic we're talking about is akin to Combat shields giving Marines +1 HP and -1 Armor, allowing a single zergling to kill a marine FASTER than without the combat shield upgrade.
Saying one and the same thing in multiple posts really doesn't help you.
So to summarize - VRs scale better against massive and armored units, preferable with bigger HP pools. They kind of sick against small light or no armor type units. The fact that +1W makes a unit worst sounds really redundant. But if thats the case with a unique attack unit like the VR - this means the unit is not used properly.
Well, whatever, you're a lost cause. No one's arguing about VR's being useful against large units. You're completely thick skulled and refusing to see the point. The SCV part of it is just illustrative. The size has very little bearing on it at all. The same situation could arise against damaged Battlecruisers, carriers, colossus, thors, vikings, other void rays, marauders, roaches, ultralisks, any armored unit. Size is irrelevant. What is relevant is that every single one of those units has a certain damage it can take before void ray does less damage to it when its upgraded. It doesn't matter in the slightest if its a colossus or whatever.
Maybe you disagree with the idea that things like this shouldn't exist in games. Thankfully, game designers tend not to agree with you on the whole "shit has to make sense" aspect of gameplay. Upgrades can't just be willy-nilly pot-luck scenario where you upgrade and go "Well gee, I hope that damage increase doesn't actually make my unit worse."
It should be universally assumed that, when you upgrade damage, at the VERY LEAST you will kill things equally quickly.
Beyond that, I'm done with the conversation, I've said literally all that can be said about this.
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On May 09 2012 00:13 Zheryn wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 04:33 Natespank wrote:
Grubby thinking!
It would be nice if stargate units weren't useless for most of the game besides opening timing attacks against zerg. Except for the fact that all stargate units counter all zerg units except the hydra which is completely useless for any other purpose than defending protoss air attacks.
What the... what?
Yeah because Sky Protoss is a common pro-build in PvZ. What the heck are you smoking?
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On May 09 2012 03:44 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2012 00:13 Zheryn wrote:On May 05 2012 04:33 Natespank wrote:
Grubby thinking!
It would be nice if stargate units weren't useless for most of the game besides opening timing attacks against zerg. Except for the fact that all stargate units counter all zerg units except the hydra which is completely useless for any other purpose than defending protoss air attacks. What the... what? Yeah because Sky Protoss is a common pro-build in PvZ. What the heck are you smoking?
I heard Genius made some Carriers in the last GSL Finals...
Except then he lost. That's at least half an instance of a sky protoss build in PvZ.
To his credit, it looks like that guy came here from this thread, being hosted by a protoss who thinks Voids are good against literally every zerg unit:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=333403¤tpage=13
Edit: The above is meant to illustrate that he's likely not out of his mind, just misinformed.
On April 30 2012 19:38 Fogetaboudit wrote:
Well, the composition is... Void Rays!! :D
Basically you spend all of your gas on Void Rays + Mothership. Against anything on the ground in the midgame, this is what you make.
If you scout muta then you have the infrastructure to go Phoenix. One mismicro that pros always make and it TILTS ME beyond belief. They try to micro 1 or 2 phoenix against 13 mutas like some sort of hero, and of course it always gets sniped. They repeat this for 3 or 4 production cycles, managing to let every phoenix get sniped, when you need to use very defensive micro, and NOT TAKE CHANCES until you have a critical number of phoenix's to trade efficiently.
Also, you can add a few carriers late, against a zerg with a lot of infestors in his composition. I did this in my second replay.
But seriously, its all about Stargate, Mothership, and cannons. Think of it like Mech TvX, but it's more mobile and defensive recall is just amazing for harass, and OH SHIT!
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Overall this thread has been a really interesting read. Many interesting points were made, but i believe a major one is being overlooked. I think that through all this random stuff the main point to be taken away is that
charged voirays are always and SIGNIFIGANTLY better than not charged voidrays.
So let me break this down:
People you need to ALWAYS pre-charge your voidrays before a fight. It doesn't really matter what it is, be it the refinery by the mineral line, or maybe even a tech lab nearby, rocks, pylons, shit even sentries can hallucinate archons or immortals to charge on. If you have to just charge on a zealout. 100 minerals is nothing in compared to the difference in damage between the charge and not charged void.
when charging your voids it is essential prior to or in combat NOT to focus fire, but rather individually focus either their prime targets or your dummy zealots
To come back to Grubby's argument i would say that it is a correct statement that voidrays when unmicro'd are possibly better without the +attack upgrade but that outside the lab situation, where people are able to individually focus their units onto specific targets that voidrays will always be better with the upgrade
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Is there a list of units that Voidrays are worse against unupgraded than upgraded and at what break points depending on what upgrades?
Are there timings where Voidrays are better or worse depending on the upgrades you get for them?
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On May 09 2012 10:28 lorkac wrote:
Is there a list of units that Voidrays are worse against unupgraded than upgraded and at what break points depending on what upgrades?
Are there timings where Voidrays are better or worse depending on the upgrades you get for them?
Early on upgrades will do worse than they will do later on. Simply because early on there are more units that die before the void ray is charged.
List :
On May 05 2012 19:57 Darkomicron wrote:I believe people are sticking with voidray battles a little too much. Even if +1 wins over unupgraded voidrays in those battles, the whole idea to start with was that getting +1 in a match is not a good idea, because +1 rays would charge on fewer units or on fewer occasions than unupgraded voidrays. So, lets try that instead: Unupgraded voidray can not charge on: SCV (getting to second charge, not fully) Marine (getting to second charge, not fully) Reaper (getting to second charge, not fully) Viking (getting to second charge, not fully) ProbeObserver (getting to second charge, not fully) DroneZerglingInfestor (getting to second charge, not fully) 2 unupgraded voidrays can not charge on: MarineSCVReaperGhost (getting to second charge, not fully) Marauder (one voidray getting to second, other not being charged) Hellion (getting to second charge, not fully) Siege Tank (getting to second charge, not fully) Medivac (getting to second charge, not fully) VikingProbeStalker (getting to second charge, not fully) Sentry (getting to second charge, not fully) Dark Templar (getting to second charge, not fully) High Templar (one voidray getting to second, other not being charged) Warp Prism (getting to second charge, not fully) ObserverZerglingDroneHydralisk (one voidray getting to second, other not being charged) InfestorRoach (getting to second charge, not fully) Overlord (getting to second charge, not fully) Corruptor (getting to second charge, not fully) Mutalisk (getting to second charge, not fully) 1 +1 voidray can not charge on: SCVMarineMarauder (getting to second charge, not fully) Reaper (getting to second charge, not fully) Hellion (getting to second charge, not fully) Viking (getting to second charge, not fully) ProbeSentry (getting to second charge, not fully) High Templar (getting to second charge, not fully) Observer (getting to second charge, not fully) DroneZerglingHydralisk (getting to second charge, not fully) Infestor (getting to second charge, not fully) 2 +1 voidrays can not charge on: SCVMarineMarauder ReaperGhost (getting to second charge, not fully) HellionSiege Tank (getting to second charge, not fully) VikingBanshee (getting to second charge, not fully) Medivac (getting to second charge, not fully) Raven (getting to second charge, not fully) ProbeZealot (getting to second charge, not fully) SentryStalker (getting to second charge, not fully) Dark Templar (getting to second charge, not fully) High Templar Warp Prism (getting to second charge, not fully) Void Ray (getting to second charge, not fully) DroneZerglingHydraliskRoach (getting to second charge, not fully) InfestorMutalisk (getting to second charge, not fully) Corruptor (getting to second charge, not fully) Overlord (getting to second charge, not fully) Differences: 1 upgraded void ray can not charge on the following units which did give 1 unupgraded void ray a charge: SCV (1 charge less) ---> unable to charge up on Marine (1 charge less) ---> unable to charge up on Marauder (1 charge less) Hellion (1 charge less) Sentry (1 charge less) High Templar (1 charge less) Hydralisk (1 charge less) 2 upgraded void rays can not charge on the following units which did give 2 unupgraded void rays a charge: Marauder (1 charge less for 1 voidray) ---> unable to charge up on with both rays Hellion (1 charge less) ---> unable to charge up on Banshee (1 charge less) Raven (1 charge less) High Templar (1 charge less for 1 voidray) ---> unable to charge up on with both rays Zealot (1 charge less) Void Ray (1 charge less) Sentry (1 charge less) ---> unable to charge up on Hydralisk (1 charge less for 1 voidray) ---> unable to charge up on with both rays Replay of my testing is here: http://drop.sc/172139Edit: Underlining and the replay Edit 2: added the 'unable to charge up on' data.
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On May 09 2012 06:11 BlinkGosu wrote:
Overall this thread has been a really interesting read. Many interesting points were made, but i believe a major one is being overlooked. I think that through all this random stuff the main point to be taken away is that
charged voirays are always and SIGNIFIGANTLY better than not charged voidrays.
So let me break this down:
People you need to ALWAYS pre-charge your voidrays before a fight. It doesn't really matter what it is, be it the refinery by the mineral line, or maybe even a tech lab nearby, rocks, pylons, shit even sentries can hallucinate archons or immortals to charge on. If you have to just charge on a zealout. 100 minerals is nothing in compared to the difference in damage between the charge and not charged void.
when charging your voids it is essential prior to or in combat NOT to focus fire, but rather individually focus either their prime targets or your dummy zealots
To come back to Grubby's argument i would say that it is a correct statement that voidrays when unmicro'd are possibly better without the +attack upgrade but that outside the lab situation, where people are able to individually focus their units onto specific targets that voidrays will always be better with the upgrade
I don't think anyone is missing that point. I think that is the entire point of the thread. But its not quite as simple as you make it out to be. Voidrays simply do not mesh with your army well. You want to get your voidrays charged, and it can be done in the early game, but come late game their usefullness is much less. A few voidrays can charge with some micro, but once you start getting a decent amount it becomes much more difficult, regardless of of your suggestions. If you have 10-15+ upgraded voidrays, how many hallucinates do you think you would need for them all to precharge before battle? More energy than you can spare or gas to afford is the answer. Precharging cannot always be an adequate answer, especially when the enemy is trying to force an engagement. In your army composition, your voidrays must attack individual units, while your army is shooting at those very same units. A voidray needs at least 7.2 seconds uninterrupted to charge, which can often be the majority of the battle. You shouldn't talk down to people off your high horse like you are the godsent knowledge of how to make it work. People have known about precharging voidrays on rocks and everything else you say since the beta, but the answer is just not that simple.
That voidray mothership build may be on to something though with the defensive recalls and cloak.....
Also, nice job on that list Darkomicron.
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On May 09 2012 03:04 Darkomicron wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2012 00:02 ckolev wrote:On May 08 2012 23:05 Felnarion wrote:On May 08 2012 22:54 ckolev wrote:On May 08 2012 22:41 Felnarion wrote:On May 08 2012 22:32 ckolev wrote:
Also if we look at the VR damage (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Void_Ray), it actually has a very high rate of fire so it scales even better with attack upgrades.
10-16 VS armored with no upgrades
11-18 VS armored +1W
12-20 VS armored +2W
13-22 VS armored +3W
So even if with +1 it might be a bad idea to do a timing push, with +2/+3 VRs become better. I'm kind of at a loss at this point for how you can defend it. It's not about how much damage it does. If the overall damage needs to be nerfed, whatever. The problem is, a unit that can be in a scenario where it does less damage after an upgrade (all other things, control, position, etc being equal) is bad unit design. We all understand that, if you charge up before going in, then the upgraded damage is better, but that isn't always an option. Even if its one out of 1000 games, and in this one game, a guy has a void ray which he sends at a colossus he previously damaged, a colossus protected by a couple units...there is a scenario where the colossus has a certain amount of HP that doesn't allow the VR to charge, and therefore causes the VR to die before killing off the units. It is essentially punishing a player, even in very limited circumstances, for getting an upgrade for his units. That should never, in a well-designed game, be the case. I don't know what more there is to say than that. OK you need to understand the difference between damage and DPS. What you are talking about is DPS - damage per second. I'm talking about damage. What grubby has also noticed is that the DPS of non-upgraded VRs is lower tan that of the upgraded. Mathematically that's not possible. the +1W gives 10% more DPS. 126VR - 120 VR = 6VR (5%). So the upgraded VRs have more DPS aslo. The problem here comes from the fact how the VRs charge up. If the upgraded VRs target the same targets, they will kill it, before charging up, but if each of them fires at an individual target, all will charge up. Same for he others. In order to complete the test properly you need smaller numbers, but keep the 5% difference. Also you will have to make sure that each VR on both sides fire at individual targets or couple of VRs from each side target the same target (3VRs from each side target 1). This test is incredible difficult to achieve. If someone can do it, it will put a end to this discussion with solid facts with no random chance. As I said, the test is completely and utterly meaningless. I mean, it was unscientific, and who cares, mutas suffer the same problems, battles between them tend to be hugely random. I'm not sure why you're still talking about this specific test when I, and others, have clearly said that its difficult to draw a conslusion from it. A much better test, that you've blatantly ignored, is that an unupgraded VR kills SCVs much faster than an upgraded void ray. You can stand back and say "Well dur, they're meant for killing big things" but that's not the point, the point isn't that they're SCVs, that the VR doesn't get its bonus against them, or that they don't have large HP pools. The point is, there are fights where a player is PUNISHED for upgrading attack. It's not as if we're comparing two different units. It's not as if the VR is made for killing big things and we're comparing it to how fast marines kill small things... I understand the concept that a VR is supposed to be shitty at killing small things. The problem is that when you increase its damage it doesn't make sense for it to get even worse at it.Read that last part multiple times. If you still don't get it, and you can't come up with something mind blowing, then I've had my fill. Saying one and the same thing in multiple posts really doesn't help you. So to summarize - VRs scale better against massive and armored units, preferable with bigger HP pools. They kind of sick against small light or no armor type units. The fact that +1W makes a unit worst sounds really redundant. But if thats the case with a unique attack unit like the VR - this means the unit is not used properly. He says the same thing because you do not seem to understand. It's not about the void ray attack, but more about the mechanic and upgrade combined. Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 23:49 Ansinjunger wrote:On May 08 2012 23:05 Felnarion wrote:
SCVs, that the VR doesn't get its bonus against them, or that they don't have large HP pools. The point is, there are fights where a player is PUNISHED for upgrading attack.
Who cares? If your enemies units die faster at first, that's probably more helpful. I'd rather void rays remain interesting. If a player lost a very close fight because he had air attack upgrades rather than not, that would be very interesting for viewers and commentators. It would also be instructive for the player. Players have to deal with that type of thing all the time. For example, a bunch of marines grouped together do the most damage while taking the least against zerglings, but if aoe enters the picture, the game changes. Yes, I know the analogy isn't perfect, but the point is that players have to make a thoughtful decision, as opposed to not. On a related note, what happened to when void rays did more damage in larger number--the "Death Star effect," if you will? Name a unit that gets worse in any situation, no matter how small, if +1 attack or armor is upgraded. You can't compare stacking marines being good or bad in certain situations. The void ray will never die faster, and it will always kill units. But as my post on the previous page (with replay included) proved, an unupgraded voidray will kill SCV's about 12.5% faster than an upgraded voidray. The units do not die faster, only perhaps the first 2 SCV's. So you spend 100 minerals and 100 gas, chronoboosts and time to get an upgrade... which then only hinders your ability to fight against certain units. It's broken unit design. It's not something players choose for, it's not something that can be used to micro. The combination of trying to improve your units and the result being negative sometimes is unacceptable.
My point is the math and theorycraft just don't matter to me. My analogy is just fine, even though it's not about upgrades. I can tell you tech upgrade that makes a unit worse in certain situations: Caduceus reactor = feedback owns medivacs harder. It's not gamebreaking and neither is the void ray thing.
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On May 09 2012 12:41 Ansinjunger wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2012 03:04 Darkomicron wrote:On May 09 2012 00:02 ckolev wrote:On May 08 2012 23:05 Felnarion wrote:On May 08 2012 22:54 ckolev wrote:On May 08 2012 22:41 Felnarion wrote:On May 08 2012 22:32 ckolev wrote:
Also if we look at the VR damage (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Void_Ray), it actually has a very high rate of fire so it scales even better with attack upgrades.
10-16 VS armored with no upgrades
11-18 VS armored +1W
12-20 VS armored +2W
13-22 VS armored +3W
So even if with +1 it might be a bad idea to do a timing push, with +2/+3 VRs become better. I'm kind of at a loss at this point for how you can defend it. It's not about how much damage it does. If the overall damage needs to be nerfed, whatever. The problem is, a unit that can be in a scenario where it does less damage after an upgrade (all other things, control, position, etc being equal) is bad unit design. We all understand that, if you charge up before going in, then the upgraded damage is better, but that isn't always an option. Even if its one out of 1000 games, and in this one game, a guy has a void ray which he sends at a colossus he previously damaged, a colossus protected by a couple units...there is a scenario where the colossus has a certain amount of HP that doesn't allow the VR to charge, and therefore causes the VR to die before killing off the units. It is essentially punishing a player, even in very limited circumstances, for getting an upgrade for his units. That should never, in a well-designed game, be the case. I don't know what more there is to say than that. OK you need to understand the difference between damage and DPS. What you are talking about is DPS - damage per second. I'm talking about damage. What grubby has also noticed is that the DPS of non-upgraded VRs is lower tan that of the upgraded. Mathematically that's not possible. the +1W gives 10% more DPS. 126VR - 120 VR = 6VR (5%). So the upgraded VRs have more DPS aslo. The problem here comes from the fact how the VRs charge up. If the upgraded VRs target the same targets, they will kill it, before charging up, but if each of them fires at an individual target, all will charge up. Same for he others. In order to complete the test properly you need smaller numbers, but keep the 5% difference. Also you will have to make sure that each VR on both sides fire at individual targets or couple of VRs from each side target the same target (3VRs from each side target 1). This test is incredible difficult to achieve. If someone can do it, it will put a end to this discussion with solid facts with no random chance. As I said, the test is completely and utterly meaningless. I mean, it was unscientific, and who cares, mutas suffer the same problems, battles between them tend to be hugely random. I'm not sure why you're still talking about this specific test when I, and others, have clearly said that its difficult to draw a conslusion from it. A much better test, that you've blatantly ignored, is that an unupgraded VR kills SCVs much faster than an upgraded void ray. You can stand back and say "Well dur, they're meant for killing big things" but that's not the point, the point isn't that they're SCVs, that the VR doesn't get its bonus against them, or that they don't have large HP pools. The point is, there are fights where a player is PUNISHED for upgrading attack. It's not as if we're comparing two different units. It's not as if the VR is made for killing big things and we're comparing it to how fast marines kill small things... I understand the concept that a VR is supposed to be shitty at killing small things. The problem is that when you increase its damage it doesn't make sense for it to get even worse at it.Read that last part multiple times. If you still don't get it, and you can't come up with something mind blowing, then I've had my fill. Saying one and the same thing in multiple posts really doesn't help you. So to summarize - VRs scale better against massive and armored units, preferable with bigger HP pools. They kind of sick against small light or no armor type units. The fact that +1W makes a unit worst sounds really redundant. But if thats the case with a unique attack unit like the VR - this means the unit is not used properly. He says the same thing because you do not seem to understand. It's not about the void ray attack, but more about the mechanic and upgrade combined. On May 08 2012 23:49 Ansinjunger wrote:On May 08 2012 23:05 Felnarion wrote:
SCVs, that the VR doesn't get its bonus against them, or that they don't have large HP pools. The point is, there are fights where a player is PUNISHED for upgrading attack.
Who cares? If your enemies units die faster at first, that's probably more helpful. I'd rather void rays remain interesting. If a player lost a very close fight because he had air attack upgrades rather than not, that would be very interesting for viewers and commentators. It would also be instructive for the player. Players have to deal with that type of thing all the time. For example, a bunch of marines grouped together do the most damage while taking the least against zerglings, but if aoe enters the picture, the game changes. Yes, I know the analogy isn't perfect, but the point is that players have to make a thoughtful decision, as opposed to not. On a related note, what happened to when void rays did more damage in larger number--the "Death Star effect," if you will? Name a unit that gets worse in any situation, no matter how small, if +1 attack or armor is upgraded. You can't compare stacking marines being good or bad in certain situations. The void ray will never die faster, and it will always kill units. But as my post on the previous page (with replay included) proved, an unupgraded voidray will kill SCV's about 12.5% faster than an upgraded voidray. The units do not die faster, only perhaps the first 2 SCV's. So you spend 100 minerals and 100 gas, chronoboosts and time to get an upgrade... which then only hinders your ability to fight against certain units. It's broken unit design. It's not something players choose for, it's not something that can be used to micro. The combination of trying to improve your units and the result being negative sometimes is unacceptable. My point is the math and theorycraft just don't matter to me. My analogy is just fine, even though it's not about upgrades. I can tell you tech upgrade that makes a unit worse in certain situations: Caduceus reactor = feedback owns medivacs harder. It's not gamebreaking and neither is the void ray thing.
I feel like I have to repeat myself everytime. This was said before with siege tech.
It's not about a unit upgrade. It's about a +1 upgrade out of the forge, engi bay, armory, cybernetics core, evolution chamber or spire. These +1 attack, armor or shield upgraded never have a bad effect on the unit. The unit itself always gets more damage or armor and the unit will never deal less damage. However, in the case of void rays that's simply not true due to the mechanic of charging the unit up. That's what I view as broken unit design, not so much the fact that a void ray can't always charge up. More so the effect that the upgrade has on the void ray not being able to charge, and resulting in less damage dealt.
I.e. an unupgraded void ray kills 45 SCVs faster than an upgraded void ray kills 40.
I've never used math of theorycraft to argument in this thread. Every post I made was supported by testing and most of the times I also included a replay to support the evidence.
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On May 09 2012 12:41 Ansinjunger wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2012 03:04 Darkomicron wrote:On May 09 2012 00:02 ckolev wrote:On May 08 2012 23:05 Felnarion wrote:On May 08 2012 22:54 ckolev wrote:On May 08 2012 22:41 Felnarion wrote:On May 08 2012 22:32 ckolev wrote:
Also if we look at the VR damage (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Void_Ray), it actually has a very high rate of fire so it scales even better with attack upgrades.
10-16 VS armored with no upgrades
11-18 VS armored +1W
12-20 VS armored +2W
13-22 VS armored +3W
So even if with +1 it might be a bad idea to do a timing push, with +2/+3 VRs become better. I'm kind of at a loss at this point for how you can defend it. It's not about how much damage it does. If the overall damage needs to be nerfed, whatever. The problem is, a unit that can be in a scenario where it does less damage after an upgrade (all other things, control, position, etc being equal) is bad unit design. We all understand that, if you charge up before going in, then the upgraded damage is better, but that isn't always an option. Even if its one out of 1000 games, and in this one game, a guy has a void ray which he sends at a colossus he previously damaged, a colossus protected by a couple units...there is a scenario where the colossus has a certain amount of HP that doesn't allow the VR to charge, and therefore causes the VR to die before killing off the units. It is essentially punishing a player, even in very limited circumstances, for getting an upgrade for his units. That should never, in a well-designed game, be the case. I don't know what more there is to say than that. OK you need to understand the difference between damage and DPS. What you are talking about is DPS - damage per second. I'm talking about damage. What grubby has also noticed is that the DPS of non-upgraded VRs is lower tan that of the upgraded. Mathematically that's not possible. the +1W gives 10% more DPS. 126VR - 120 VR = 6VR (5%). So the upgraded VRs have more DPS aslo. The problem here comes from the fact how the VRs charge up. If the upgraded VRs target the same targets, they will kill it, before charging up, but if each of them fires at an individual target, all will charge up. Same for he others. In order to complete the test properly you need smaller numbers, but keep the 5% difference. Also you will have to make sure that each VR on both sides fire at individual targets or couple of VRs from each side target the same target (3VRs from each side target 1). This test is incredible difficult to achieve. If someone can do it, it will put a end to this discussion with solid facts with no random chance. As I said, the test is completely and utterly meaningless. I mean, it was unscientific, and who cares, mutas suffer the same problems, battles between them tend to be hugely random. I'm not sure why you're still talking about this specific test when I, and others, have clearly said that its difficult to draw a conslusion from it. A much better test, that you've blatantly ignored, is that an unupgraded VR kills SCVs much faster than an upgraded void ray. You can stand back and say "Well dur, they're meant for killing big things" but that's not the point, the point isn't that they're SCVs, that the VR doesn't get its bonus against them, or that they don't have large HP pools. The point is, there are fights where a player is PUNISHED for upgrading attack. It's not as if we're comparing two different units. It's not as if the VR is made for killing big things and we're comparing it to how fast marines kill small things... I understand the concept that a VR is supposed to be shitty at killing small things. The problem is that when you increase its damage it doesn't make sense for it to get even worse at it.Read that last part multiple times. If you still don't get it, and you can't come up with something mind blowing, then I've had my fill. Saying one and the same thing in multiple posts really doesn't help you. So to summarize - VRs scale better against massive and armored units, preferable with bigger HP pools. They kind of sick against small light or no armor type units. The fact that +1W makes a unit worst sounds really redundant. But if thats the case with a unique attack unit like the VR - this means the unit is not used properly. He says the same thing because you do not seem to understand. It's not about the void ray attack, but more about the mechanic and upgrade combined. On May 08 2012 23:49 Ansinjunger wrote:On May 08 2012 23:05 Felnarion wrote:
SCVs, that the VR doesn't get its bonus against them, or that they don't have large HP pools. The point is, there are fights where a player is PUNISHED for upgrading attack.
Who cares? If your enemies units die faster at first, that's probably more helpful. I'd rather void rays remain interesting. If a player lost a very close fight because he had air attack upgrades rather than not, that would be very interesting for viewers and commentators. It would also be instructive for the player. Players have to deal with that type of thing all the time. For example, a bunch of marines grouped together do the most damage while taking the least against zerglings, but if aoe enters the picture, the game changes. Yes, I know the analogy isn't perfect, but the point is that players have to make a thoughtful decision, as opposed to not. On a related note, what happened to when void rays did more damage in larger number--the "Death Star effect," if you will? Name a unit that gets worse in any situation, no matter how small, if +1 attack or armor is upgraded. You can't compare stacking marines being good or bad in certain situations. The void ray will never die faster, and it will always kill units. But as my post on the previous page (with replay included) proved, an unupgraded voidray will kill SCV's about 12.5% faster than an upgraded voidray. The units do not die faster, only perhaps the first 2 SCV's. So you spend 100 minerals and 100 gas, chronoboosts and time to get an upgrade... which then only hinders your ability to fight against certain units. It's broken unit design. It's not something players choose for, it's not something that can be used to micro. The combination of trying to improve your units and the result being negative sometimes is unacceptable. My point is the math and theorycraft just don't matter to me. My analogy is just fine, even though it's not about upgrades. I can tell you tech upgrade that makes a unit worse in certain situations: Caduceus reactor = feedback owns medivacs harder. It's not gamebreaking and neither is the void ray thing.
I just don't get you. Are you here argueing just for the sake of it? What possible reason could you have to 'defend' air upgrades making void rays worse in certain situations. I just don't see how anyone can be so thick-skulled not to see that having upgrades isn't a choice you make in every engagements like splitting/stacking vs AoE. It isn't something your opponent can take advantage of. Having damage upgrades should NEVER be a penalty to your damage. It's obviously a flaw in the design of the unit, because why else would it be the only unit in the game with this flaw?
Here's an actual 'fine analogy' for you: Immortals are counters to expensive, hard-hitting units, right? So how come when I get +1 ground attack, they don't deal less damage to marines/zerglings/zealots? How come when I get +1 armor, they don't take more damage from small units? Cause that's how upgrades work. They make units better, not worse.
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Theres a split between passive and active upgrades. People need to stop using things like siege mode and stim as examples, as you can just not use them.
I have yet to see anyone poke a hole in the medivac analogy. You get Cad Reactor, and this can mean when you get feedbacked you die instead of getting away. So, getting that upgrade, which should never be detrimental, has cost you a game. Same as VR. Its just how the game is designed, its not a bug or a balance issue. Deal with it.
I personally think it doesnt make sense than you can EMP an OC but not Feeback it, but again, not a balance thing really, just the way it is.
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On May 09 2012 20:25 Squigly wrote:
Theres a split between passive and active upgrades. People need to stop using things like siege mode and stim as examples, as you can just not use them.
I have yet to see anyone poke a hole in the medivac analogy. You get Cad Reactor, and this can mean when you get feedbacked you die instead of getting away. So, getting that upgrade, which should never be detrimental, has cost you a game. Same as VR. Its just how the game is designed, its not a bug or a balance issue. Deal with it.
I personally think it doesnt make sense than you can EMP an OC but not Feeback it, but again, not a balance thing really, just the way it is.
Feedback is a direct counter to energy using units so it only makes sense that it's stronger against units with more energy.
There is however no unit or ability in the game that would do something along the lines of: take less damage the higher your opponent's damage.
If there would be something like that then I'd be fine if the void ray did less damage with more upgrades but as of now, the void rays deals less damage to multiple targets (opposed to cad reactor being worse against only 1 unit in the entire game)
due to its own mechanics, rather than that of an enemy unit's.
No one said it's a bug btw, it's not a bug, it's a flaw in the unit's design. It's very simple: damage upgrades should increase a unit's damage.
The cad reactor analogy isn't really a direct comparison cause it's two complete different things. It's X being countered by ability Y (which happens to be made to counter X in the first place).
Imagine if medivacs with more energy actually healed less health per second on certain units (ghosts for example). That's how you should look at it.
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I think I see where this is coming from. When the Void Ray switches targets, it loses some of its charge. This means it can kill enemy units before reaching max beam, thus being trapped at the lower value. This can ironically lower the overall damage of the Void Ray. Strange, isn't it?
Void Rays are supposed to do more damage over time. Rather than charging up their laser, why not charge up the enemy unit? Devourers had a stacking debuff that caused enemy units do take extra damage. A similar mechanic may work for Void Rays.
It'd work like this:
- VR attacks unit
- Unit builds up "ion" charges or some such, which last a few seconds.
- Each charge amounts to 0.5 - 1 more damage, and there would be 5-10 charges max.
- Charges may or may not help other Protoss units as well (hello deathball).
Attack rate would be the biggest factor in how much damage a unit takes. Since Void Rays are one of the fastest attacking units for Protoss (1.67/sec) , they would naturally get the biggest returns from their own charge. Carriers are disappearing, so their 50 thousand attacks will be gone. The other big benefactors are the Phoenix and Sentry, which get 1.8 attacks(.9x2) and 1.0 attacks per second, respectively.
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EPT
