EPT[D] Grubby on Void Rays - Page 11
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CaptainCrush
United States785 Posts
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frietjeman
Netherlands26 Posts
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HyTex
United States67 Posts
This basically guarantees some units within a flock of Void Rays makes it to level 2 and 3, and I hope would fix the problem. | ||
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Treehead
999 Posts
On May 09 2012 21:00 CaptainCrush wrote: I cant believe a toss is commenting on how their late game needs a buff.... ... because there are tons of people who make void rays for late game these days... Except that if you look at the pros, nobody's making void rays except in pre-lair tech PvZ. | ||
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Felnarion
442 Posts
On May 09 2012 20:25 Squigly wrote: Theres a split between passive and active upgrades. People need to stop using things like siege mode and stim as examples, as you can just not use them. I have yet to see anyone poke a hole in the medivac analogy. You get Cad Reactor, and this can mean when you get feedbacked you die instead of getting away. So, getting that upgrade, which should never be detrimental, has cost you a game. Same as VR. Its just how the game is designed, its not a bug or a balance issue. Deal with it. I personally think it doesnt make sense than you can EMP an OC but not Feeback it, but again, not a balance thing really, just the way it is. Come on, you know that isn't the same. The +energy thing applies to all units with energy. If a ghost, BC, Raven, Medivac, etc get the upgrade, they all take more damage from feedback if they have their energy upgrade. It's a trade off, it's an obvious and intuitive one. "If I get more energy earlier, a feedback will do more damage" Further, it applies to every single unit with an energy upgrade. The equivalent to this situation would be if every unit suffered from feedback moreso with their upgrade except ghosts, which inexplicably receive an upgrade that gave them more energy but makes them take less damage from feedback at the same time. What's more, at least in the feedback scenario, it's your enemy capitalizing on an upgrade you've made. They see you have the reactor, so they feedback and rake in the kills. In the VR scenario, your opponent isn't doing or realizing anything, he's just reaping the benefit of a broken upgrade causing your unit to kill things more slowly. | ||
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ChriseC
Germany440 Posts
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sc2holar
Sweden1637 Posts
On May 09 2012 21:23 frietjeman wrote: If there has ever been an uncalled for, horribly biased and downright dumb race QQ post, it's this one ^. this has nothing to do with race or QQ, we are talking about the mechanics of a single unit. If a unit does less damage when it has attack upgrades, its a design flaw. even if its a protoss unit. | ||
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Epsilon_zero
United States4 Posts
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TokO
Norway577 Posts
On May 09 2012 20:52 bobucles wrote: I think I see where this is coming from. When the Void Ray switches targets, it loses some of its charge. This means it can kill enemy units before reaching max beam, thus being trapped at the lower value. This can ironically lower the overall damage of the Void Ray. Strange, isn't it? Void Rays are supposed to do more damage over time. Rather than charging up their laser, why not charge up the enemy unit? Devourers had a stacking debuff that caused enemy units do take extra damage. A similar mechanic may work for Void Rays. It'd work like this: - VR attacks unit - Unit builds up "ion" charges or some such, which last a few seconds. - Each charge amounts to 0.5 - 1 more damage, and there would be 5-10 charges max. - Charges may or may not help other Protoss units as well (hello deathball). Attack rate would be the biggest factor in how much damage a unit takes. Since Void Rays are one of the fastest attacking units for Protoss (1.67/sec) , they would naturally get the biggest returns from their own charge. Carriers are disappearing, so their 50 thousand attacks will be gone. The other big benefactors are the Phoenix and Sentry, which get 1.8 attacks(.9x2) and 1.0 attacks per second, respectively. This is pretty genious. But instead of this complex system, why not just give a -1 Armour debuff every 3 ticks of beam? Stacking until, well, -10 Armour? If this mechanism was in place in BW, why not SC2? | ||
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ejozl
Denmark3445 Posts
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NarutO
Germany18839 Posts
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Clarity_nl
Netherlands6826 Posts
On May 10 2012 20:39 Type|NarutO wrote: With killing units faster and not doing as much damage, upgraded void rays also decrease the damage output of the opponents army. You cannot compare that in voidray vs voidray fights... because this is a completely irrational and theoretical scenario. You're right, but it's still an interesting observation at the very least. | ||
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Darkomicron
Netherlands216 Posts
On May 10 2012 20:39 Type|NarutO wrote: With killing units faster and not doing as much damage, upgraded void rays also decrease the damage output of the opponents army. You cannot compare that in voidray vs voidray fights... because this is a completely irrational and theoretical scenario. Voidray vs voidray fights was a bad example, that is agreed upon. However, the damage reduction of the voidray will result in units dying less quickly, not reducing the damage output of the opponents army as much. Unless you mean letting 1 voidray fighting 3 marines, then the +1 voidray will indeed do better. If you scale that experiment up a bit the +1 won't be able to charge, killing less units and taking more damage. The question is, where is the threshold? | ||
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Fyrewolf
United States1533 Posts
On May 09 2012 20:52 bobucles wrote: I think I see where this is coming from. When the Void Ray switches targets, it loses some of its charge. This means it can kill enemy units before reaching max beam, thus being trapped at the lower value. This can ironically lower the overall damage of the Void Ray. Strange, isn't it? Void Rays are supposed to do more damage over time. Rather than charging up their laser, why not charge up the enemy unit? Devourers had a stacking debuff that caused enemy units do take extra damage. A similar mechanic may work for Void Rays. It'd work like this: - VR attacks unit - Unit builds up "ion" charges or some such, which last a few seconds. - Each charge amounts to 0.5 - 1 more damage, and there would be 5-10 charges max. - Charges may or may not help other Protoss units as well (hello deathball). Attack rate would be the biggest factor in how much damage a unit takes. Since Void Rays are one of the fastest attacking units for Protoss (1.67/sec) , they would naturally get the biggest returns from their own charge. Carriers are disappearing, so their 50 thousand attacks will be gone. The other big benefactors are the Phoenix and Sentry, which get 1.8 attacks(.9x2) and 1.0 attacks per second, respectively. This is in an interesting way to do it. It keeps the voidrays primary mechanic (It does more damage if it continuously fires at a Single unit) but changes it from a charge that suddenly happens to a gradual ramping up of damage based on ion charges stacked on the enemy units. By making it a gradual thing, it will always have at least some effect(even though it will probably still be less useful as the game progresses), as opposed to now where where lategame charging simply doesn't happen at all. The unit stats would probably need a bunch of tweaking to fit the new mechanic, but if done right, I think it could end up being a better design for the mechanic. One difference though is that this kind of voidray would never start off charged against a fresh unit, as you can with precharging now, but I think it could be balanced, and this could encourage voidray micro to attack higher hp units like it was designed to do. Currently, IF you can get charged up, specifically attacking high hp units isn't really a micro priority as much as killing things that could shoot down your charged voidrays so that they can keep doing charged up damage to everything. This new idea may encourage continued microing onto high hp units for maximum effectiveness. It's an interesting idea, it has a lot of similarity to now, but plays out very differently. Certainly some intriguing food for thought on how to do the same thing in a different way. | ||
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Darkomicron
Netherlands216 Posts
On May 10 2012 22:02 Fyrewolf wrote: One difference though is that this kind of voidray would never start off charged against a fresh unit, as you can with precharging now, but I think it could be balanced, and this could encourage voidray micro to attack higher hp units like it was designed to do. Currently, IF you can get charged up, specifically attacking high hp units isn't really a micro priority as much as killing things that could shoot down your charged voidrays so that they can keep doing charged up damage to everything. This new idea may encourage continued microing onto high hp units for maximum effectiveness. That's fixed if you give that 'ion charge' to the voidray itself. It will gradually charge and it can still be pre-charged. I think letting other protoss units have benefit of the ion charge would be imba anyway (zealot + voidray = ??? profit!). | ||
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