[D] Grubby on Void Rays

On May 05 2012 02:50 Yonnua wrote:
Depends on the unit. I'm sure there are some units which they manage to charge up before killing, against which they would benefit from the upgrades. If they can't charge up before killing though, then they won't benefit.

On May 05 2012 02:51 Derrida wrote:
Eh, discussion questions:

Do you think this is working as intended?
Can we have a different mechanic for VRs? (Grubby suggested getting +dmg after kill)

On May 05 2012 03:05 regulator_mk wrote:
Maybe the upgrade should not affect uncharged damage, but give a larger bonus to the charged damage. i.e. a +1 void should do 10=>20 instead of 11=>18.

On May 05 2012 02:43 Derrida wrote:
Grubby has recently (today) shared evidence for a 'weird' theory of his, namely, that Void Ray's do less damage in big battles if they are upgraded.

From his twitter:

"I've entertained a theory of mine for a while now, and I may have found evidence to support it. Do you agree with my experiment? In big fights, Void Rays may do less total damage if they're upgraded in attack.

120 1:0 Void Rays lose out to 126 0:0 VR's. Abt 20 0:0 VR's survive. Theory: "Why charge mechanic makes attack grades suck on VR's. Basically because an attack upgraded VR kills units sooner, they don't get a chance to charge up and ironically do less damage?"

Watch replay: http://drop.sc/171849

What do you guys think?

On May 05 2012 03:57 Zrana wrote:
They should really just change them to do a % of the target's hp per second, this charging up/down stuff screws with balance too much

On May 05 2012 04:29 Infocus wrote:
I think the clear solution to this problem is to reduce the voidray damage significanly. Say 30%. That way units dieing too fast will cease to be a problem eliminating the design flaw that attack upgardes reduce their damage.

The MOST reasonable solution is to make it so that attack upgrades REDUCE CHARGE TIME.

edit: make it reduce charge time and not increase the damage of each level of attack

On May 05 2012 06:50 Alejandrisha wrote:
whenever i've got more than 2 void rays i'm sittin there making sure they're not shooting the same thing. really ineffectual as for 5 seconds you either micro the rest of your junk or you're dealing with a bunch of chandeliers. not really sure what is to be done with it though, maybe add another level of the charge that can transfer over.. like not one that does more damage but one that keeps the previous charge so you don't drop off back to zero upon re-target. though this would make dealing with weird VR switches in pvp harder to deal with on the fly

On May 05 2012 05:20 BronzeKnee wrote:
Why match up 126 vs 120? The upgrade costs 100-100 which isn't even the cost of a single Void Ray, so why do the unupgraded Void Rays get 6 extra on the side?

Furthermore, Void Rays can fully charge on each other whether or not they are 0:0 or have +1 attack, thus the premise of the theory isn't actually tested by the test. The premise is that when you upgrade a Void Ray it doesn't get a chance to charge up because of how fast it kills things, which means this should be tested against a lower HP unit to see if the Void Ray doesn't get a chance to charge up, thereby doing less damage in a large battle. Hydralisks might be a good choice here, but I'm not sure if Voids fully charge on them or not.

To prove this theory, Grubby needs to find a unit which the Void Ray kills right after fully charging, then test it with upgrades to see if it allows the Void to kill the unit before it fully charges, thus meaning it takes longer for the Void to fully charge, and thus down lower damage over time. Either way the Void Ray should charge sooner after changing targets, thus the benefit would be very situational and short lived.

And either way Grubby has no idea what he is talking about. I am actually shocked you guys are entertaining such a theory...

On May 05 2012 06:53 Heh_ wrote:

This cracked me up. Well, I guess this means that mass upgraded VRs isn't a legit strat..

Ehm the cost really isnt the point here... What do you think wins: 100 3/3 marines vs 200 0/0 marines.. But omg 200 marines is 5000 minerals - the 3/3 upgrade cost more.. Why they get so many???
If an upgrade was only worth its actual cost in ONE unit, there would be no reason to get it.

Void Rays may do less total damage if they're upgraded in attack.

On May 05 2012 06:56 mskaa wrote:


Ehm the cost really isnt the point here... What do you think wins: 100 3/3 marines vs 200 0/0 marines.. But omg 200 marines is 5000 minerals - the 3/3 upgrade cost more.. Why they get so many???
If an upgrade was only worth its actual cost in ONE unit, there would be no reason to get it.

Either way you have no idea what your talking about... Im actually shocked you are entertaining us with such a false theory.

On May 05 2012 06:56 mskaa wrote:
Either way you have no idea what your talking about... Im actually shocked you are entertaining us with such a false theory.

On May 05 2012 08:34 Grubby wrote:


No, there is not enough potential in Void Rays to be part of an army composition in big fights. As in, the unit gets obsolete too quickly. Just like Phoenices get obsolete, and Carriers are useless by any measuring stick. It means Protoss air has nary a valid position in any army.

The theorising I do is lighthearted and curious. As you could see, I was hypothesising and doing poor one-off experiments. I don't have time to do more... I just wanted to provoke some thought and was interested by the response

Thank you for your part of the response. xd

On May 05 2012 08:57 Elp wrote:
While testing this i've noticed some other odd behavior by the Voidray charge.

You can see it when you have the Voidray attack a bunch of SCV's. The 2nd charge will start when the 3rd SCV is attacked (1st, 2nd destroyed). This is strange because if it is true that the charge buildup (the buildup to level 2, not the 2nd charge level itself) is reset when the Voidray switches targets, the 2nd charge should start when the 2nd SCV is attacked or it should never charge up to the 2nd stage at all.

As I said in my previous post, the charge buildup does reset when attacking Probes (40hp), but apparently it doesn't when attacking a 45HP unit. Perhaps there is a tiny fraction of charge that bleeds over to the next target and 45HP is just enough to make it work? I dont know, its weird.

(Sorry, bit offtopic )

On May 05 2012 08:33 straycat wrote:



He means that it does not make sense to test 120 vs 126, since the 6 extra unupgraded is better to have than the upgrades. And so he is confused as to why Grubby had 126. And, one explanation he sees is that Grubby reasoned that the money that did not go to upgrades should go to extra void rays. But, as BK wrote, the upgrade cost does not even warrant one extra void ray, and so the rationale for the 6 extra is still a mystery.

On May 05 2012 09:04 HansK wrote:


I tend to disagree a little. In PvZ, a really popular build going around from White-Ra, col.rsvp, and others is something like a voidray-carrier-HT-mothership-a few gateway units(normally archons for toilets or stalkers if they're going pure infestor corrupter). While using vortex to split the army up the mix of units make it very, very deadly and void rays seem to have a very good little spot in that army comp.

I think in some cases void-rays have their spot in big fights, mostly against zerg.

On May 05 2012 10:18 Toxi78 wrote:
this is stupid.
let's make the estimation, with such close numbers, that in average the first wave of attacks will kill half of the numbers of void rays you have if left uncontrolled (which means, randomly, 126 void rays will kill 63 void rays before they change their target).
i do have the mathematical formula to actually calculate, in a probabilistic approach, how many void rays you can expect to kill , but i am quite convinced that my intuitive conjecture is the right one (if i had a way to actually check the real values...oh god.)
so having this conjecture in mind, and assuming that grubby's conjecture is false, and just saying 1-0 has no effect over 0-0, let's run the numbers
1st wave : 120 vs 126, the 120 kill 60, the 126 kill 63
2nd wave : 57 vs 66, the 57 kill 29, the 66 kill 33 (let's be generous with our upgraded void rays)
3rd wave : 24 vs 37, the 24 kill 12, the 37 kill 18
4th wave : 6 vs 25, the 6 kill 3, the 25 kill..."12"
5th wave : 0 vs 22

now i know that the probabilities should be iterated at every wave and everything, but as a general way to convince yourself that 6 void rays makes a HUGE difference, i think this was pretty spot on.

On May 05 2012 06:56 mskaa wrote:



Ehm the cost really isnt the point here... What do you think wins: 100 3/3 marines vs 200 0/0 marines.. But omg 200 marines is 5000 minerals - the 3/3 upgrade cost more.. Why they get so many???
If an upgrade was only worth its actual cost in ONE unit, there would be no reason to get it.

Furthermore, 120 voidrays will probably not attack 120 different voidrays on the other side, but will attack a lot of the same voids. That means the voidrays actually wont charge up coz they die too fast.. Ofc if you have 10k+ apm you can individually make everyone of your voids attack a different enemy voidray, but for the rest of us mortals we will have to make due with several voidrays attacking each other and thus not getting charged up.

Either way you have no idea what your talking about... Im actually shocked you are entertaining us with such a false theory.

On May 05 2012 11:45 BronzeKnee wrote:


The whole idea was that Void Rays do less damage in big battles without the damage upgrade (read first line of OP). Not who wins in mass Void Ray battles. No where did I purpose any theory, I was simply stating the proper way to test the idea, and showing that the idea itself is very situational, and any bonus is very shorted live in most situations (when the +1 Voids do indeed charge, they'll easily surpass the damage output of the charged unupgraded Voids in a short amount of time).

Throwing massive amount of Void Rays at each other does nothing to test Grubby's idea. As I stated a single unupgraded Void Ray should be tested against a unit it kills right after fully charging, then test it again with +1 upgrade to see if the upgrade allows the Void Ray to kill the unit before it fully charges, thus meaning it takes longer for the Void to fully charge, and thus down lower damage over time. Either way the Void Ray should charge sooner after changing targets in big battles, thus the benefit would be very situational and short lived. So while in an extremely small set of cases Grubby is correct (and said circumstances would never be in big battles because the upgraded Void Rays would change targets and charge very quickly), if you were planning to get +1 attack for your Void Rays but are thinking of not getting it now because you think the Void Ray will actually do less damage, you are incorrect.

Now back again to mass Void Ray battle, even unupgraded Voids in tandem will easily focus down a +1 Void Ray before they have a chance to charge, thus both sides suffer from this, and both players would need the 10k+ apm you speak of in order to maximize damage. Coldflame did the math a few posts above this one to simply show that the extra health and damage from the 6 Void Rays on one side overcomes the extra damage from the +1 on the other, and thus case closed. If there were any truth to Grubby's idea than 120 unupgraded Voids would beat 120 upgraded since they would charge faster, but that is not the case. The extra 6 Void Rays is like the extra bullet the magician has hiding in his teeth. It sure looks like he caught the bullet fired from his assistant's gun with his teeth, but when you look at it closely, it is just smoke and mirrors.

On May 05 2012 10:28 ACRcoldflame wrote:
Stats:

Health of 126 0-0 voids: 31500
dps of 126 0-0 voids: 2100 (exact)

Health of 120 1-0 voids: 30000
dps of 120 1-0 voids: 2200 (exact)

death rate of 126 voids: 14.31 seconds (just straight 1-0 voids killing the 126)
death rate of 120 voids: 14.285 seconds (just the straight 126 voids killing the 120)

I could implement the algorithm to show that with the death rate and such the 126 excel over the 120 1-0 do to sheer numbers. As such this is a bad test for grubby's theorem. While his idea is good in basis and may be true in actuallity with the test he used it is clearly not true. Which is sad because i am a huge grubby fan.

I recomment all you theory crafters out there actually crunch some numbers before just watching a replay, As it is clear with number crunching this out come can be expected.

On May 05 2012 08:57 Elp wrote:
While testing this i've noticed some other odd behavior by the Voidray charge.

You can see it when you have the Voidray attack a bunch of SCV's. The 2nd charge will start when the 3rd SCV is attacked (1st, 2nd destroyed). This is strange because if it is true that the charge buildup (the buildup to level 2, not the 2nd charge level itself) is reset when the Voidray switches targets, the 2nd charge should start when the 2nd SCV is attacked or it should never charge up to the 2nd stage at all.

As I said in my previous post, the charge buildup does reset when attacking Probes (40hp), but apparently it doesn't when attacking a 45HP unit. Perhaps there is a tiny fraction of charge that bleeds over to the next target and 45HP is just enough to make it work? I dont know, its weird.

(Sorry, bit offtopic )

On May 05 2012 04:04 Derrida wrote:


so that the time it takes for a VR to kill a zergling and an ultralisk is equal?

On May 05 2012 19:06 freetgy wrote:


the match behind is very simple.

lvl1 = standard attack
lvl2 = precharge (level where voidray doesn't loses his precharge when switching targets)
lvl3 = full charge (dmg booost)

it takes 6 attacks for a Voidray to reach lvl2
this means:

+0 Voidray:
6*6 = 36 dmg (vs. light) = thus lvl2 can be reached 1 voidray if it attacks a probe alone

+1 Voidray:
6*7 = 42dmg (vs. light) = thus lvl2 can't be reached since unit dies charge ticks are lost when switching to the next target.
(i.e. can't charge on probes anymore)
+2 Voidray:
6*8 = 48dmg
(i.e. can't charge on scvs/ unupgraded marines anymore)

+3 Voidray:
6*9 = 54 dmg

same applies for the armor bonus dmg
10 * 6 = 60dmg needs to be dealt to a single armored unit before it dies
+1
11*6 = 66
+2
12*6 = 72
+3
13*6 = 78

and this is the optimal preset where we assume only the Voidray attacks the unit.
If other units shoot these too and voidray can't reach lvl2 and never reach lvl3 because charge is lost every time the focussed unit dies.

Especially in lategame this gets even worse, because splash damage comes to please which reduces the overall hp of single units so Voidrays most likely can't deal their 6 attack ticks on a single unit.

The charge mechanic is just broken in general imho.
(I mean where seriously is this unit used? except from early game harass vs. Zerg is has become absolutely useless unit)

On May 05 2012 19:29 Markwerf wrote:
VRs just suck when massed. Unlike some casters say without reason that VRs have a 'critical mass' where they start to kill instantly VRs actually don't benefit from higher numbers as they charge less.

This is not a practical problem at all for normal games. The amount of VRs you get and the units you target should always suffice to get them charged really

On May 05 2012 19:26 Elp wrote:

Sorry, but that just isn't correct

First of all, why do you assume there is a precharge level? There's no mention of this anywhere. Also, if such a precharge level exists and it takes 6 attacks to get to it, it would indeed charge against Probes. However, Voidrays do NOT charge against Probes.
Furthermore, according to your math +1 Voidrays will still charge up against SCV's, but they don't.

This also doesn't explain why a Voidray charges up against the 3rd SCV and not on the 2nd.

On May 05 2012 20:08 Baum wrote:
I have read through this thread and I am kind of confused about this discussion. Right now there are only a few situations where players implement Void Rays into their army composition aside from early game harassment. The role of Void Rays in the protoss arsenal right now is an early game attacking unit and a situational counter unit in mid and late game against certain compositions. The reason for this is the charge mechanic.

We have seen how problematic this mechanic can be in the earlier stages of Sc2 where at one point Void Ray all ins became close to unstoppable. Making changes like letting the Void Ray charge up faster or charge up after a kill will make the Void Ray very powerful in the early game again. The problem with charge is that if they charge up too quickly they become too powerful in the early game and if they charge up to slowly they are useless in the late game. Right now they see situational use in both early and late game so maybe blizzard has actually found the sweet spot for this unit.

If you propose a significant change like that you should make a more elaborate point and think about all the implications it has. Obviously attack damage would have to change as well and the whole role of the Void Ray would change so as long as no one has made a good point about how you can change the Void Ray without messing with too much other stuff I am very much against it.

On May 05 2012 20:16 Darkomicron wrote:


The problem isn't necessarily that the charge mechanic is wrong. It's that the charge mechanic messes with upgrades. Upgrades should always make a unit stronger, in every situation. That's why you upgrade them! However, as my previous post demonstrated, in many cases a +1 voidray can't charge on units where an unupgraded voidray could charge on. If a +1 voidray doesn't get charged, the unupgraded voidray will end up dealing more damage because it is charged.

The only change that has to be made is to make sure the void ray keeps charging, even though it's upgraded. Getting air weapon should always be beneficial. Perhaps a good idea is to make a voidray charge up based on how much damage it does within x seconds. If you deal damage it starts charging. If you stop dealing damage a 5 second timer starts. If you start dealing damage within that time, it will continue to charge. If you do not deal damage within that time, the charge falters. This way you can attack and get charged on 3 zerglings, instead of killing 1, losing the charging, starting on another one, it dies too quickly, losing the charge again... Starting on the third... etc.

On May 05 2012 19:31 Fogetaboudit wrote:


you are wrong, unfortunately I'm not at liberty to point you in the direction of proof. Do some research imo.

On May 05 2012 20:18 Th1rdEye wrote:
Maybe the real answer is dont mass voidrays.

They aren't meant to counter everything?

So what if they don't charge. The upgrades are meant to increase DPS, which means KILLING THINGS FASTER -.-

Voidrays are meant to counter ultralisks, broodlords, etc. Sure the DPS may increase, but that means that lowers the DPS of the opponent? Think about it.

I dont see how them not charging as fast has any difference at all. The real problem is because you have too many voidrays to even let them charge if you are massing them.. because the DPS is too high regardless of the upgs

It is a little weird that you might not get a full charge.. but think about it. why don't you charge ? because the enemy unit dies faster..therefore making the increase in DPS from the upgrade obvious..?

On May 05 2012 20:22 Baum wrote:


This would be a terrible change. Don't you realize that this would make Void Rays so much more powerful in early game situations while taking away the need to micro them?

On May 05 2012 20:59 Darkomicron wrote:It won't take away the need to micro them. You still have to keep attacking and making sure your voidrays stay charged. The only change that will be made is that it won't lose it's charge if it can't kill a unit. Effectively making a voidray able to power up on small units as well.

On May 05 2012 03:07 chestnutcc wrote:
Grubby's solution is v warcraft 3 like i.e. giving void rays an XP mechanic.

On May 05 2012 21:04 Baum wrote:


Which is why it is too strong. Blizzard has buffed the damage versus light to make up for not being able to charge. You don't have to decide anymore which units to focus because you will charge anyway. Explain to me why you should be able to charge on everything?

On May 05 2012 19:50 FeyFey wrote:
i really hope they don't turn another one of the protoss micro units into a noob unit, like the immortal or the phoenix, no challenge to use them anymore. And charging voidrays is really easy compared to controlling a range 5 immortal, or fighting mutas with range 4 phoenix x3.
But normal protoss players generally don't like to micro and optimize their unit. Otherwise chargelots wouldn't be on autocast anymore x3.

still think its easy enough to charge voidrays in a battle, but that is also something that goes into pre battle preperation, something alot of people don't like doing. and just a move over the map, because its saver.

On May 05 2012 19:50 freetgy wrote:


ofc. there is a second level of charge (the one where the laser beams connect)

but your right, my calculation wasn't correct it is 7 full dmg ticks (just rechecked it now) (may it has been changed back when voidrays were nerfed)

So a voidray does actually need to attack 7 times deal each time full dmg before the unit dies to reach precharge lvl.

7 full dmg ticks = +0 Voidray can only charge up a unit that has minimum = 7*6 = 42 hp
this means charging on probes doesn't work because 42dmg > 40hp of a probe
while a scv allows for this

you can prove this by letting a +1 Voidray attack a reaper (voidray does 7 attacks á 7dmg = 49dmg) and gets charged
+2 Voidrays vs. 1 marines with combat shield = 7 attacks á 8 dmg = 56 dmg vs. 55hp (marine dies before 7.th full 7 dmg is dealt)

to prove this right we would need a unit that dies within 7 times full dmg of a voidray ( and look if a voidray charges up (after the 7.th attack is finished and can change the unit or with the start of the 8.th attack on the same unit)

this means
on light
7*6 = 42
7*7 = 49
7*8 = 56
7*9 = 63

on armor
7*10 = 70
7*11 = 77
7*12 = 84
7*12 = 91

On May 05 2012 22:38 Darkomicron wrote:


Because the voidray damage upgrade will have an adverse effect if you can't charge up on everything. I don't necessarily think that a voidray has to be able to charge up on a zergling. But a damage upgrade should always benefit the unit. What I proposed fixes the problem and makes upgraded voids better than unupgraded voids in every situation.

Also, focus firing is bad for voidrays, because it will give less chance to charge them up. The unit will die too quickly. If you change the way in which it charges up, you will only encourage focus firing, because then there is no disadvantage to microing your void rays.

On May 05 2012 22:51 orBitual wrote:
Does this really require any change at all? Why can't you just use this information to figure out when/when not to get upgrades based on how the underlying mechanics work? Most players choose to get upgrades based on their usefulness... If it's not useful to upgrade void rays when massing them... then don't.

On May 05 2012 23:13 Baum wrote:


As I stated earlier there are few situations in which you would implement Void Rays into your main army composition and they have nothing to do with Void Rays not being able to charge up on lings or marines or other lower hp units. What you are proposing is horrendously overpowered. The way Void Rays work right now they don't scale well with upgrades we got that now but this is not a good reason for changing them in a way that would buff them immensely even without upgrades.

On May 05 2012 23:30 treekiller wrote:
Couldnt you charge the rays on something?

On May 06 2012 00:06 Darkomicron wrote:


Of course it requires change! If you want to play with air units as a protoss in the late game you will definitely need the upgrades for, for instance, carriers. Right now, it's nearly impossible to use void rays in an army. The only time you see them often is with stargate harass against zerg. Now, if you let the upgrades actually benefit the void ray, we might see some tactics involving blink stalkers and voidrays into a lategame composition that allows for carriers. One of the problem with carriers is that they are unupgraded when you build them. Fixing the upgrades for voidrays basically paves the way for new air strategies for protoss.

Also, it makes no sense that upgrades would make a unit worse. That solely should be a reason to 'fix' this.



This is all about numbers. The void ray has to be balanced of course, but the mechanic of charging being changed has nothing to do with balance. Just like everything else in starcraft, it has to be tested and adjusted. Changing the mechanic will allow for upgrades to benefit the voidray, if he does too much damage because of easier charging, then reduce the charge damage a little. Problem solved! No reason not to use a different charging mechanic.



Of course, but in many situations void rays can be powered in a battle. It's weird that if you upgrade your voidrays you will have to do more pre-battle micro and preparation to be able to use them.

-----------
Another idea is to let the voidray get +1 damage per attack, with a maximum of +10. Of course, numbers need tweaking.
Or give the voidray an energy bar 0->12 energy. Each time damage ticks it gets +1 energy. If it's out of combat the energy will drain. Make 12 energy fully charged, and 7 charge level 2.

The whole idea behind changing the way it charges up is to make sure the upgrade gives benefit instead of how it is right now.

On May 05 2012 19:57 Darkomicron wrote:
Differences:
1 upgraded void ray can not charge on the following units which did give 1 unupgraded void ray a charge:
SCV (1 charge less) ---> unable to charge up on
Marine (1 charge less) ---> unable to charge up on
Marauder (1 charge less)
Hellion (1 charge less)

Sentry (1 charge less) ---> unable to charge up on
High Templar (1 charge less) ---> unable to charge up on

Hydralisk (1 charge less)


2 upgraded void rays can not charge on the following units which did give 2 unupgraded void rays a charge:
Marauder (1 charge less for 1 voidray) ---> unable to charge up on with both rays
Hellion (1 charge less) ---> unable to charge up on
Banshee (1 charge less)
Raven (1 charge less)

High Templar (1 charge less for 1 voidray) ---> unable to charge up on with both rays
Zealot (1 charge less)
Void Ray (1 charge less)
Sentry (1 charge less) ---> unable to charge up on

Hydralisk (1 charge less for 1 voidray) ---> unable to charge up on with both rays

On May 06 2012 01:24 Elp wrote:

Some of these conclusions are incorrect and others are unfair.

A +1 Voidray still charges against Sentries and Templars, it just doesn't charge on a single unit. This doesn't mean its performance decreases, in fact a +1 Voidray kills multiple Sentries and Templars faster than an unupgraded Voidray. So the upgrade works just fine here.

The downside of Voidray upgrades only applies when the Voidray loses its ability to charge to it's 2nd lvl. This means that negative effects of Voidray weapons upgrade only apply to units that have 49HP (or less) for +1, 56HP (or less) for +2 and 63HP (or less) for +3 (light units). For armored its 70HP, 80HP and 90HP. If the unit has higher HP, it means a higher upgrade level leads to better performance. So this excludes from your list: Marauder, Hellion, Sentry, High Templar and Hydralisk. Leaving only a disadvantage vs SCV's and Marines.

Second, you have to consider that upgrades on the side of the opponent can have a positive influence on Voidray performance. If the opponent has +1 armor, you can charge on Probes and Droness. It can also apply to Zerglings and Broodlings at greater upgrade levels. In a wide range of situations the presence of Armor upgrades on the side of the opponent can increase Voidray performance.

The negative effects of Protoss Air Weapons Upgrade and the sometimes positive effects of opponent armor/shield upgrades on Voidray performance are extremely situational. Because it's so heavily dependent on the situation you cant draw any ingame conclusions from this, you can only recognize that the Voidray mechanics behave in a funny way.

On May 06 2012 00:56 Markwerf wrote:


voids don't get worse with upgrades at all.. only massive amount of voids in this particular instance get potentially worse with an upgrade.. In any real game scenario voids with upgrades just do better. Voids are not something you want to mass anyway so the entire point is non-problematic

On May 05 2012 12:21 mskaa wrote:
It does however tell something about how bad the attack upgrade is, because of the charge mechanic.
126 to 120 is only 5% more, and it doesnt even win!.. Wouldnt you agree that an upgrade should be worth more than that?

On May 06 2012 02:20 BronzeKnee wrote:


No I do not agree. I have a strong feeling that if you had 126 BC's with no upgrades vs 120 with a +1 attack, the 126 still win. I in fact guarantee the win with Yatamoto Cannon, and it is likely they win even without it. It is the nature of expensive powerful units. Having more of them is generally better than having upgrades.

How many times I have done a 2 base Colossus all-in vs Terran when they have 2-1 and I have 2 with 0-0 Colossus and I still win? Again the nature of expensive powerful units.

On May 06 2012 02:05 Darkomicron wrote:


Oh, you're right. Sorry, my bad. I fixed it in the post now, indeed they do charge to level 2.

Upgrades should always have a positive influence for you, and a negative influence on your opponent. That's the whole idea behind doing an upgrade. You want to specialize in a certain type of unit, and they have to be stronger so your opponent stands less of a chance, right? Therefore, it makes no sense that void ray upgrades help your opponent, or armor upgrades improve void ray performance. It goes both ways. Just focusing on the void ray upgrades because it has to do with protoss air, which is a tactic you never see in a serious game. --> see my previous post regarding carrier tactics.

On May 06 2012 02:37 Darkomicron wrote:


Of course you can win without upgrades if you have colossi against pure MMM. Colossi just are great dealing with MMM, but the terran certainly has a huge advantage if he has a concave or spread out units. Your example is not very good.

Also, I don't like going offtopic, but here's 126 BC vs 120 BC with +1 for you:
http://drop.sc/172262

42 BC's with +1 left. Upgrades make, and should make, a HUGE difference.

That's the problem with voids, upgrades have a negative effect sometimes, which is silly.

On May 06 2012 02:44 Elp wrote:

Yes, those are all valid points. However, the changes to the Voidray that were suggested in this thread to counteract these weird mechanics are straight up Voidray boosts. I pointed out the positive effects because, first of all, they exist and to offer some perspective. The mechanics may be weird, but that is not a valid reason to improve (or nerf) the Voidray.

On May 06 2012 02:50 mexicanfashion wrote:
Correct me if I am wrong but, wouldn't make the charged void ray stay charged for 2 seconds longer fix this?
(Even when haven't reach the next stage, like if a void ray made 5 hits but kept the "charged memory" of those 5 hits 2 secs so it would reach next stage when give one more hit to another probe)

On May 06 2012 03:02 Darkomicron wrote:


Indeed. It's a reason to fix it. Like I said before, the rest is a matter of numbers and balancing. In such a competetive game as SC2 things should make perfect sense. You have to react and actions you make need to have a reliable outcome. If you blink your stalkers, you know how far they'll go. Imagine if they suddenly blink a lesser distance. That's not what you want. Although the void ray may not be influenced greatly, these 'weird' occurrences do not belong in the game.



Yeah, if each attack is stored then that would indeed fix these problems. It doesn't really matter how, if you use damage instead of number of attacks. Keep the attacks stored for X seconds, resetting the counter when the void ray attacks again. Or the energy system I brought up earlier. They all work and would result in a better void ray unit.

On May 06 2012 05:48 Aveng3r wrote:
wouldnt it make sense to just upgrade the armor instead of the attack then?

On May 06 2012 08:17 moQbara wrote:
I tend to agree with it being a normal behavior. The voidray is not worse except some particular situations which are taken out of context (which is the game itself). You wouldn't need voidrays to kill those units anyway so it's irrelevant.

More examples of "bad upgrades":

1. Siege mode enables tanks to damage friendly units;
2. Stim pack enables infantry to lose HP on command;
3. Banelings die after use. One could argue that it's silly to upgrade a unit (zergling) only to lose the upgraded version after a single use (lol?).

On May 06 2012 08:17 moQbara wrote:
I tend to agree with it being a normal behavior. The voidray is not worse except some particular situations which are taken out of context (which is the game itself). You wouldn't need voidrays to kill those units anyway so it's irrelevant.

More examples of "bad upgrades":

1. Siege mode enables tanks to damage friendly units;
2. Stim pack enables infantry to lose HP on command;
3. Banelings die after use. One could argue that it's silly to upgrade a unit (zergling) only to lose the upgraded version after a single use (lol?).

On May 06 2012 14:43 Genome852 wrote:


I don't get your logic at all.

Void rays getting worse in some situations after upgrading air weapons does not.

What other unit gets weaker with better upgrades?

This is a flaw but in a real game as others have tested I doubt it makes a big difference.

On May 05 2012 04:04 Derrida wrote:


so that the time it takes for a VR to kill a zergling and an ultralisk is equal?

I think the clear solution to this problem is to reduce the voidray damage significanly. Say 30%. That way units dieing too fast will cease to be a problem eliminating the design flaw that attack upgardes reduce their damage.

The MOST reasonable solution is to make it so that attack upgrades REDUCE CHARGE TIME.

edit: make it reduce charge time and not increase the damage of each level of attack

On May 07 2012 00:26 Aterons_toss wrote:
Does it really matter ? I can think of a 1 in 1k pvp scenario when one person goes mass air and thus might use mass vr late game ( and thus get upgrade ), but are vr actually used anywhere else in the late game ( so that you can't charge micro them/have money for ups... cuz you don't generaly have money for ups and can charge micro in the vr cheeses, which are the only times i can think of vr actually being used ).

On May 07 2012 01:18 Goolpsy wrote:
Catch 22 Argument isn't it?
VR is bad, so it's not used alot, hence it doesn't matter.
If VRs were good, they would be used alot, and then they would matter! (Even though there is no problem?!)

On May 07 2012 01:32 iSTime wrote:
Why not just make it charge after X number of damage rather than after Y seconds?

Doesn't affect un-upgraded VRs at all, but makes it so that there is no situation in which an un-upgraded VR is ever better than an upgraded one.

On May 07 2012 01:39 Darkomicron wrote:
I think the best solution is to create something like an energy bar that goes up to 15. Each time damage lands the void ray gets +1 energy. While not attacking, the energy will drain.
This will result in the void ray having to charge, not getting a buff, and also it fixes the whole upgrade issue, because it doesn't matter if the unit dies, as long as you keep attacking the void ray will eventually be charged. It also adds a nice little strategy for terrans or maybe even protoss to EMP/Feedback the void ray and make it lose it's charge.

That's what I've come up with though. I don't mind any different changes, I just want to see it fixed eventually :D

On May 07 2012 01:39 Darkomicron wrote:



This results in upgraded void rays charging faster, thus giving them a very minor damage buff. That can be balanced out though.

On May 07 2012 01:39 Darkomicron wrote:
I think the best solution is to create something like an energy bar that goes up to 15. Each time damage lands the void ray gets +1 energy. While not attacking, the energy will drain.
This will result in the void ray having to charge, not getting a buff, and also it fixes the whole upgrade issue, because it doesn't matter if the unit dies, as long as you keep attacking the void ray will eventually be charged. It also adds a nice little strategy for terrans or maybe even protoss to EMP/Feedback the void ray and make it lose it's charge.

That's what I've come up with though. I don't mind any different changes, I just want to see it fixed eventually :D

On May 07 2012 08:53 lycan wrote:
instead of the damage increase, it should het a radius increase!

On May 07 2012 12:39 Goolpsy wrote:
As for damage as charge-up, you could always use 'Pre-mitigation damage' and the armor problem is solved.

As for the expoential damage increase, think of it like this:

DPS for VR = %Of-time-Attacking-while-lvl1*BaseDmg + %Of-time-attacking-while-lvl2*Charged-upDmg

The funny thing is; if you try doing the math of how large a reduction in charge-up time you need to skew the DPS the wanted 5%, it's along the lines of 20% charge-up reduction per upgrade !! (The key thing is to identify how often it is attacking as lvl1 and how often it is attacking while charged up)

On May 05 2012 03:04 theBOOCH wrote:
This doesn't show anything. First of all, 126 unupgraded void rays will kill 120 upgraded voidrays with left overs, as will 126 upgraded voidrays kill 120 upgraded voidrays. If you watch closely, the upgraded voidrays kill more unupgraded ones early in the battle. At the end of the battle, there are just about as many fully charged upgraded voidrays as there are unupgraded ones. Also, this is only one, poorly controlled experiment. There is an element of randomness to any battle. If severl voidrays from either side end up focussing on the voidrays from the other side, you get wacky results. Also, you can queue voidrays to attack and they won't lose their charge between changing targets even vs zerglings or marines. I honestly just think this is a matter of chance and numbers advantages outweighing one measly upgrade.

On May 07 2012 22:48 Darkomicron wrote:
No, the void ray with +1 damage sometimes kills units too fast, making him unable to charge. See my post on page 4. The unupgraded void ray does less damage, getting more hits, which will then be able to charge.

On May 08 2012 05:38 sVnteen wrote:
grubby is always right

but noone actually uses mass voidrays anyways so it doesn't really matter

On May 08 2012 05:38 sVnteen wrote:
grubby is always right

but noone actually uses mass voidrays anyways so it doesn't really matter

On May 07 2012 17:26 Elp wrote:

If by 'Pre-mitigation damage', you mean the damage it does while ignoring armor and weapon upgrades (basically use base damage), you have just described the mechanics of the original Voidray If the threshold is at 78 damage for light units, and you ignore all upgrades, you will always get 78/6=13. 13 attacks, just like the current Voidray

On May 08 2012 08:59 Goolpsy wrote:


If we place the threshold as 36 dmg (6 attacks of 6 dmg) and the VR then gets +1, it would reach 36 dmg after 5,1 attacks (If you round up this number, the difference won't set in, till +2 VR - at 4,5 attacks)

Hence it is NOT the same as the current VR mechanics (Pre-mitigation dmg just means that the armor of the defending unit won't be a factor, so their upgrades won't change the charge-up time)

A further note on dmg thresholds: If it includes ekstra dmg to armored and/or massive, you might actually have a mechanic were VR's charge faster on Armored units etc. - which wouldn't be a problem through balance, but only add to the VR Flavor.

On May 08 2012 21:11 Goolpsy wrote:
The point of the change was to make sure the VRs charge alittle faster when they get their upgrades, hence you cannot exclude the weapon upgrades.

On May 08 2012 22:02 ckolev wrote:
One simple fact is ignored here - VRs were designed to kill big targets, targets with a lot of HP. From this very basic idea comes that the are not quite effective versus small targets, that they cannot get charged upon. There is no need to change anything on them.

Also on Grubbys experiment - there is a random factor in the battle. Also of course that the +1 Weapons upgrade will kill units faster. But if the VR is used against a large unit, even if the VR has +3, he will still charge up and fulfil his goal.

The result might also come from the VRs themselves. The total HP of a VR might be just at the border between being charged after killing the other VR and not being charged (in case of +1W, just a few HP less than needed to charge up).

Anyway there are more important things in the game to take care of, than making these small calculations.

On May 08 2012 22:09 Felnarion wrote:


The argument that VRs are meant to kill big things is moot. If one is fighting a colossus that has been damaged to the appropriate amount of hit points, the VR kills it before it charges and does less damage to the next colossus.

The point is that nothing else in the game has any scenario where it does less damage with more upgrades.

Grubby's experiment is essentially meaningless (no offense Grubby). But what he did do, is point out a fact. And it is a fact. There is a threshold of HP where a VR will kill a unit too quickly with upgrades. The question is only how often this happens in a game scenario.

On May 08 2012 22:11 ckolev wrote:


OK what kills a Hatch/CC/Nexus faster - upgraded VR or non-upgarded VR???

There is no other unit in SC2 who's damage scales like the VR. He is unique and misusing it does not mean it needs to be changed.

Also is the VR better against other VRs or Carriers???

The fact that the VR is designed to kill big (massive) units is I think unquestionable.

On May 08 2012 22:17 ckolev wrote:


Totally agree. I'm only saying that if it kills units faster even if it doesn't charge, than its still good - you kill units faster (I can't believe there is a discussion on "Units kills other units too fast").

On May 08 2012 22:18 Darkomicron wrote:


It's not about the fact that a void ray is designed to take out big targets. It's about the fact that a +1 damage upgrade on a void ray can sometimes lead to damage reduction because it takes out a target before getting charged. If an unupgraded void ray would've attacked it would've gotten a charge and therefore dealt more damage.

As said earlier. If there are 3 colossi with low HP, an unupgraded voidray could charge and kill them faster than an upgraded voidray that does not get charged. This applies to units like marines and scvs without any damage as well.

On May 08 2012 22:23 ckolev wrote:


Again this is all because of the fact that the VR has a unique damage scale system. That is the reason to pre-charge the VR before battle. Anyway for me a +1 is always better than no upgrades at all.

On May 08 2012 22:35 Darkomicron wrote:


An unupgraded voidray kills 45 SCV's faster than an upgraded one kills 40.
http://drop.sc/174854

That's plain weird, to me at least.

On May 08 2012 22:32 ckolev wrote:
Also if we look at the VR damage (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Void_Ray), it actually has a very high rate of fire so it scales even better with attack upgrades.

10-16 VS armored with no upgrades
11-18 VS armored +1W
12-20 VS armored +2W
13-22 VS armored +3W

So even if with +1 it might be a bad idea to do a timing push, with +2/+3 VRs become better.

On May 08 2012 22:41 Felnarion wrote:


I'm kind of at a loss at this point for how you can defend it. It's not about how much damage it does. If the overall damage needs to be nerfed, whatever. The problem is, a unit that can be in a scenario where it does less damage after an upgrade (all other things, control, position, etc being equal) is bad unit design.

We all understand that, if you charge up before going in, then the upgraded damage is better, but that isn't always an option.

Even if its one out of 1000 games, and in this one game, a guy has a void ray which he sends at a colossus he previously damaged, a colossus protected by a couple units...there is a scenario where the colossus has a certain amount of HP that doesn't allow the VR to charge, and therefore causes the VR to die before killing off the units. It is essentially punishing a player, even in very limited circumstances, for getting an upgrade for his units. That should never, in a well-designed game, be the case. I don't know what more there is to say than that.

On May 08 2012 22:40 ckolev wrote:


I'm sticking to "VRs are ment to kill targets with lots of HP, Bob".

And also again - VRs system to do damage is unique so it should not be analysed the same way as other units damage systems.

Same as you don't use immortals to kill lings (efficiently) or you don't use roaches vs mass tanks.

On May 08 2012 22:57 naastyOne wrote:

So VR is a hard counter to BC, Carrier, Mothership, and ultralisk, and as a hard counter, should obviously be useless otherwise.
Oh, and considering that neither of them is very oftenly used en mase, VR is just plain useless by the design, and nobody should viev it as wrong and propose changes. right. Right?>

Dismissing the analyse without making a better suggestion is useless.

Does +1 attack makes Immortals worse an killing lings? Maybe +1 makes roaches worse at killing tanks?
The major point is, upgrades should make units better, or at least leave it not worse.

On May 08 2012 22:54 ckolev wrote:

OK you need to understand the difference between damage and DPS. What you are talking about is DPS - damage per second.
I'm talking about damage. What grubby has also noticed is that the DPS of non-upgraded VRs is lower tan that of the upgraded. Mathematically that's not possible. the +1W gives 10% more DPS. 126VR - 120 VR = 6VR (5%). So the upgraded VRs have more DPS aslo. The problem here comes from the fact how the VRs charge up. If the upgraded VRs target the same targets, they will kill it, before charging up, but if each of them fires at an individual target, all will charge up. Same for he others.

In order to complete the test properly you need smaller numbers, but keep the 5% difference. Also you will have to make sure that each VR on both sides fire at individual targets or couple of VRs from each side target the same target (3VRs from each side target 1). This test is incredible difficult to achieve. If someone can do it, it will put a end to this discussion with solid facts with no random chance.

On May 08 2012 21:24 Elp wrote:

The point of the discussion was how to make it NOT charge slower when upgraded. That isn't the same as how to make it charge faster.

On May 08 2012 23:05 Felnarion wrote:
SCVs, that the VR doesn't get its bonus against them, or that they don't have large HP pools. The point is, there are fights where a player is PUNISHED for upgrading attack.

On May 08 2012 23:05 Felnarion wrote:


As I said, the test is completely and utterly meaningless. I mean, it was unscientific, and who cares, mutas suffer the same problems, battles between them tend to be hugely random. I'm not sure why you're still talking about this specific test when I, and others, have clearly said that its difficult to draw a conslusion from it.

A much better test, that you've blatantly ignored, is that an unupgraded VR kills SCVs much faster than an upgraded void ray.

You can stand back and say "Well dur, they're meant for killing big things" but that's not the point, the point isn't that they're SCVs, that the VR doesn't get its bonus against them, or that they don't have large HP pools. The point is, there are fights where a player is PUNISHED for upgrading attack.

It's not as if we're comparing two different units. It's not as if the VR is made for killing big things and we're comparing it to how fast marines kill small things...

I understand the concept that a VR is supposed to be shitty at killing small things. The problem is that when you increase its damage it doesn't make sense for it to get even worse at it.

Read that last part multiple times. If you still don't get it, and you can't come up with something mind blowing, then I've had my fill.

On May 05 2012 04:33 Natespank wrote:
Grubby thinking!

It would be nice if stargate units weren't useless for most of the game besides opening timing attacks against zerg.

On May 09 2012 00:02 ckolev wrote:

Saying one and the same thing in multiple posts really doesn't help you.

So to summarize - VRs scale better against massive and armored units, preferable with bigger HP pools. They kind of sick against small light or no armor type units. The fact that +1W makes a unit worst sounds really redundant. But if thats the case with a unique attack unit like the VR - this means the unit is not used properly.

On May 08 2012 23:49 Ansinjunger wrote:



Who cares? If your enemies units die faster at first, that's probably more helpful. I'd rather void rays remain interesting. If a player lost a very close fight because he had air attack upgrades rather than not, that would be very interesting for viewers and commentators. It would also be instructive for the player.

Players have to deal with that type of thing all the time. For example, a bunch of marines grouped together do the most damage while taking the least against zerglings, but if aoe enters the picture, the game changes.

Yes, I know the analogy isn't perfect, but the point is that players have to make a thoughtful decision, as opposed to not.


On a related note, what happened to when void rays did more damage in larger number--the "Death Star effect," if you will?

On May 08 2012 23:49 Ansinjunger wrote:



Who cares? If your enemies units die faster at first, that's probably more helpful. I'd rather void rays remain interesting. If a player lost a very close fight because he had air attack upgrades rather than not, that would be very interesting for viewers and commentators. It would also be instructive for the player.

Players have to deal with that type of thing all the time. For example, a bunch of marines grouped together do the most damage while taking the least against zerglings, but if aoe enters the picture, the game changes.

Yes, I know the analogy isn't perfect, but the point is that players have to make a thoughtful decision, as opposed to not.


On a related note, what happened to when void rays did more damage in larger number--the "Death Star effect," if you will?

Saying one and the same thing in multiple posts really doesn't help you.

So to summarize - VRs scale better against massive and armored units, preferable with bigger HP pools. They kind of sick against small light or no armor type units. The fact that +1W makes a unit worst sounds really redundant. But if thats the case with a unique attack unit like the VR - this means the unit is not used properly.