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On May 07 2012 17:26 Elp wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 12:39 Goolpsy wrote:
As for damage as charge-up, you could always use 'Pre-mitigation damage' and the armor problem is solved.
As for the expoential damage increase, think of it like this:
DPS for VR = %Of-time-Attacking-while-lvl1*BaseDmg + %Of-time-attacking-while-lvl2*Charged-upDmg
The funny thing is; if you try doing the math of how large a reduction in charge-up time you need to skew the DPS the wanted 5%, it's along the lines of 20% charge-up reduction per upgrade !! (The key thing is to identify how often it is attacking as lvl1 and how often it is attacking while charged up)
If by 'Pre-mitigation damage', you mean the damage it does while ignoring armor and weapon upgrades (basically use base damage), you have just described the mechanics of the original Voidray  If the threshold is at 78 damage for light units, and you ignore all upgrades, you will always get 78/6=13. 13 attacks, just like the current Voidray 
If we place the threshold as 36 dmg (6 attacks of 6 dmg) and the VR then gets +1, it would reach 36 dmg after 5,1 attacks (If you round up this number, the difference won't set in, till +2 VR - at 4,5 attacks)
Hence it is NOT the same as the current VR mechanics (Pre-mitigation dmg just means that the armor of the defending unit won't be a factor, so their upgrades won't change the charge-up time)
A further note on dmg thresholds: If it includes ekstra dmg to armored and/or massive, you might actually have a mechanic were VR's charge faster on Armored units etc. - which wouldn't be a problem through balance, but only add to the VR Flavor.
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On May 08 2012 08:59 Goolpsy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 17:26 Elp wrote:On May 07 2012 12:39 Goolpsy wrote:
As for damage as charge-up, you could always use 'Pre-mitigation damage' and the armor problem is solved.
As for the expoential damage increase, think of it like this:
DPS for VR = %Of-time-Attacking-while-lvl1*BaseDmg + %Of-time-attacking-while-lvl2*Charged-upDmg
The funny thing is; if you try doing the math of how large a reduction in charge-up time you need to skew the DPS the wanted 5%, it's along the lines of 20% charge-up reduction per upgrade !! (The key thing is to identify how often it is attacking as lvl1 and how often it is attacking while charged up)
If by 'Pre-mitigation damage', you mean the damage it does while ignoring armor and weapon upgrades (basically use base damage), you have just described the mechanics of the original Voidray If the threshold is at 78 damage for light units, and you ignore all upgrades, you will always get 78/6=13. 13 attacks, just like the current Voidray If we place the threshold as 36 dmg (6 attacks of 6 dmg) and the VR then gets +1, it would reach 36 dmg after 5,1 attacks (If you round up this number, the difference won't set in, till +2 VR - at 4,5 attacks) Hence it is NOT the same as the current VR mechanics (Pre-mitigation dmg just means that the armor of the defending unit won't be a factor, so their upgrades won't change the charge-up time) A further note on dmg thresholds: If it includes ekstra dmg to armored and/or massive, you might actually have a mechanic were VR's charge faster on Armored units etc. - which wouldn't be a problem through balance, but only add to the VR Flavor.
Well, the threshold isn't at 36, it's at 78 (non-armored units). That's not a threshold i suggested, that's just how it is.
Also, if you exclude armor as a factor, you must also exclude weapon upgrades as a factor. If you exclude only armor levels, the Voidray will get an unfair upgrade advantage. Excluding both armor and weapon upgrades means that you will always have to use base damage, and since that is a static number and so is the damage threshold you'll always end up with the same number of attacks:13.
So yeah, that is just like the current Voidray mechanics.
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The point of the change was to make sure the VRs charge alittle faster when they get their upgrades, hence you cannot exclude the weapon upgrades.
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On May 08 2012 21:11 Goolpsy wrote:
The point of the change was to make sure the VRs charge alittle faster when they get their upgrades, hence you cannot exclude the weapon upgrades.
The point of the discussion was how to make it NOT charge slower when upgraded. That isn't the same as how to make it charge faster.
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Guys, basing the charge on damage doesn't change anything. There will still be a threshold where the void ray gets an upgrade and kills the unit before it finishes charging.
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One simple fact is ignored here - VRs were designed to kill big targets, targets with a lot of HP. From this very basic idea comes that the are not quite effective versus small targets, that they cannot get charged upon. There is no need to change anything on them.
Also on Grubbys experiment - there is a random factor in the battle. Also of course that the +1 Weapons upgrade will kill units faster. But if the VR is used against a large unit, even if the VR has +3, he will still charge up and fulfil his goal.
The result might also come from the VRs themselves. The total HP of a VR might be just at the border between being charged after killing the other VR and not being charged (in case of +1W, just a few HP less than needed to charge up).
Anyway there are more important things in the game to take care of, than making these small calculations.
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On May 08 2012 22:02 ckolev wrote:
One simple fact is ignored here - VRs were designed to kill big targets, targets with a lot of HP. From this very basic idea comes that the are not quite effective versus small targets, that they cannot get charged upon. There is no need to change anything on them.
Also on Grubbys experiment - there is a random factor in the battle. Also of course that the +1 Weapons upgrade will kill units faster. But if the VR is used against a large unit, even if the VR has +3, he will still charge up and fulfil his goal.
The result might also come from the VRs themselves. The total HP of a VR might be just at the border between being charged after killing the other VR and not being charged (in case of +1W, just a few HP less than needed to charge up).
Anyway there are more important things in the game to take care of, than making these small calculations.
The argument that VRs are meant to kill big things is moot. If one is fighting a colossus that has been damaged to the appropriate amount of hit points, the VR kills it before it charges and does less damage to the next colossus.
The point is that nothing else in the game has any scenario where it does less damage with more upgrades.
Grubby's experiment is essentially meaningless (no offense Grubby). But what he did do, is point out a fact. And it is a fact. There is a threshold of HP where a VR will kill a unit too quickly with upgrades. The question is only how often this happens in a game scenario.
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On May 08 2012 22:09 Felnarion wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 22:02 ckolev wrote:
One simple fact is ignored here - VRs were designed to kill big targets, targets with a lot of HP. From this very basic idea comes that the are not quite effective versus small targets, that they cannot get charged upon. There is no need to change anything on them.
Also on Grubbys experiment - there is a random factor in the battle. Also of course that the +1 Weapons upgrade will kill units faster. But if the VR is used against a large unit, even if the VR has +3, he will still charge up and fulfil his goal.
The result might also come from the VRs themselves. The total HP of a VR might be just at the border between being charged after killing the other VR and not being charged (in case of +1W, just a few HP less than needed to charge up).
Anyway there are more important things in the game to take care of, than making these small calculations. The argument that VRs are meant to kill big things is moot. If one is fighting a colossus that has been damaged to the appropriate amount of hit points, the VR kills it before it charges and does less damage to the next colossus. The point is that nothing else in the game has any scenario where it does less damage with more upgrades.
OK what kills a Hatch/CC/Nexus faster - upgraded VR or non-upgarded VR???
There is no other unit in SC2 who's damage scales like the VR. He is unique and misusing it does not mean it needs to be changed.
Also is the VR better against other VRs or Carriers???
The fact that the VR is designed to kill big (massive) units is I think unquestionable.
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Grubby's experiment is essentially meaningless (no offense Grubby). But what he did do, is point out a fact. And it is a fact. There is a threshold of HP where a VR will kill a unit too quickly with upgrades. The question is only how often this happens in a game scenario.
Totally agree. I'm only saying that if it kills units faster even if it doesn't charge, than its still good - you kill units faster (I can't believe there is a discussion on "Units kills other units too fast").
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On May 08 2012 22:11 ckolev wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 22:09 Felnarion wrote:On May 08 2012 22:02 ckolev wrote:
One simple fact is ignored here - VRs were designed to kill big targets, targets with a lot of HP. From this very basic idea comes that the are not quite effective versus small targets, that they cannot get charged upon. There is no need to change anything on them.
Also on Grubbys experiment - there is a random factor in the battle. Also of course that the +1 Weapons upgrade will kill units faster. But if the VR is used against a large unit, even if the VR has +3, he will still charge up and fulfil his goal.
The result might also come from the VRs themselves. The total HP of a VR might be just at the border between being charged after killing the other VR and not being charged (in case of +1W, just a few HP less than needed to charge up).
Anyway there are more important things in the game to take care of, than making these small calculations. The argument that VRs are meant to kill big things is moot. If one is fighting a colossus that has been damaged to the appropriate amount of hit points, the VR kills it before it charges and does less damage to the next colossus. The point is that nothing else in the game has any scenario where it does less damage with more upgrades. OK what kills a Hatch/CC/Nexus faster - upgraded VR or non-upgarded VR??? There is no other unit in SC2 who's damage scales like the VR. He is unique and misusing it does not mean it needs to be changed. Also is the VR better against other VRs or Carriers??? The fact that the VR is designed to kill big (massive) units is I think unquestionable.
It's not about the fact that a void ray is designed to take out big targets. It's about the fact that a +1 damage upgrade on a void ray can sometimes lead to damage reduction because it takes out a target before getting charged. If an unupgraded void ray would've attacked it would've gotten a charge and therefore dealt more damage.
As said earlier. If there are 3 colossi with low HP, an unupgraded voidray could charge and kill them faster than an upgraded voidray that does not get charged. This applies to units like marines and scvs without any damage as well.
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On May 08 2012 22:17 ckolev wrote:Show nested quote +Grubby's experiment is essentially meaningless (no offense Grubby). But what he did do, is point out a fact. And it is a fact. There is a threshold of HP where a VR will kill a unit too quickly with upgrades. The question is only how often this happens in a game scenario. Totally agree. I'm only saying that if it kills units faster even if it doesn't charge, than its still good - you kill units faster (I can't believe there is a discussion on "Units kills other units too fast").
The problem isn't that the VR kills its charger unit too quickly, of course we want that, it's that whatever it switches to afterward (usually something coming to defend against the VR) can now do a lot more damage because the VR was unable to charge on the first unit.
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On May 08 2012 22:18 Darkomicron wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 22:11 ckolev wrote:On May 08 2012 22:09 Felnarion wrote:On May 08 2012 22:02 ckolev wrote:
One simple fact is ignored here - VRs were designed to kill big targets, targets with a lot of HP. From this very basic idea comes that the are not quite effective versus small targets, that they cannot get charged upon. There is no need to change anything on them.
Also on Grubbys experiment - there is a random factor in the battle. Also of course that the +1 Weapons upgrade will kill units faster. But if the VR is used against a large unit, even if the VR has +3, he will still charge up and fulfil his goal.
The result might also come from the VRs themselves. The total HP of a VR might be just at the border between being charged after killing the other VR and not being charged (in case of +1W, just a few HP less than needed to charge up).
Anyway there are more important things in the game to take care of, than making these small calculations. The argument that VRs are meant to kill big things is moot. If one is fighting a colossus that has been damaged to the appropriate amount of hit points, the VR kills it before it charges and does less damage to the next colossus. The point is that nothing else in the game has any scenario where it does less damage with more upgrades. OK what kills a Hatch/CC/Nexus faster - upgraded VR or non-upgarded VR??? There is no other unit in SC2 who's damage scales like the VR. He is unique and misusing it does not mean it needs to be changed. Also is the VR better against other VRs or Carriers??? The fact that the VR is designed to kill big (massive) units is I think unquestionable. It's not about the fact that a void ray is designed to take out big targets. It's about the fact that a +1 damage upgrade on a void ray can sometimes lead to damage reduction because it takes out a target before getting charged. If an unupgraded void ray would've attacked it would've gotten a charge and therefore dealt more damage. As said earlier. If there are 3 colossi with low HP, an unupgraded voidray could charge and kill them faster than an upgraded voidray that does not get charged. This applies to units like marines and scvs without any damage as well.
Again this is all because of the fact that the VR has a unique damage scale system. That is the reason to pre-charge the VR before battle. Anyway for me a +1 is always better than no upgrades at all.
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Wish they brought back the 3 step charge over the 2 step charge. Was so much fun going ooooone twooooocmooooon THREEEELAZEEEEER
aah the good old days
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Also if we look at the VR damage (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Void_Ray), it actually has a very high rate of fire (0.6 seconds) so it scales even better with attack upgrades.
10-16 VS armored with no upgrades
11-18 VS armored +1W
12-20 VS armored +2W
13-22 VS armored +3W
And VS massive it gets 20% more damage every 0.6 seconds.
So even if with +1 it might be a bad idea to do a timing push, with +2/+3 VRs become better.
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On May 08 2012 22:23 ckolev wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 22:18 Darkomicron wrote:On May 08 2012 22:11 ckolev wrote:On May 08 2012 22:09 Felnarion wrote:On May 08 2012 22:02 ckolev wrote:
One simple fact is ignored here - VRs were designed to kill big targets, targets with a lot of HP. From this very basic idea comes that the are not quite effective versus small targets, that they cannot get charged upon. There is no need to change anything on them.
Also on Grubbys experiment - there is a random factor in the battle. Also of course that the +1 Weapons upgrade will kill units faster. But if the VR is used against a large unit, even if the VR has +3, he will still charge up and fulfil his goal.
The result might also come from the VRs themselves. The total HP of a VR might be just at the border between being charged after killing the other VR and not being charged (in case of +1W, just a few HP less than needed to charge up).
Anyway there are more important things in the game to take care of, than making these small calculations. The argument that VRs are meant to kill big things is moot. If one is fighting a colossus that has been damaged to the appropriate amount of hit points, the VR kills it before it charges and does less damage to the next colossus. The point is that nothing else in the game has any scenario where it does less damage with more upgrades. OK what kills a Hatch/CC/Nexus faster - upgraded VR or non-upgarded VR??? There is no other unit in SC2 who's damage scales like the VR. He is unique and misusing it does not mean it needs to be changed. Also is the VR better against other VRs or Carriers??? The fact that the VR is designed to kill big (massive) units is I think unquestionable. It's not about the fact that a void ray is designed to take out big targets. It's about the fact that a +1 damage upgrade on a void ray can sometimes lead to damage reduction because it takes out a target before getting charged. If an unupgraded void ray would've attacked it would've gotten a charge and therefore dealt more damage. As said earlier. If there are 3 colossi with low HP, an unupgraded voidray could charge and kill them faster than an upgraded voidray that does not get charged. This applies to units like marines and scvs without any damage as well. Again this is all because of the fact that the VR has a unique damage scale system. That is the reason to pre-charge the VR before battle. Anyway for me a +1 is always better than no upgrades at all.
An unupgraded voidray kills 45 SCV's faster than an upgraded one kills 40.
http://drop.sc/174854
That's plain weird, to me at least.
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On May 08 2012 22:35 Darkomicron wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 22:23 ckolev wrote:On May 08 2012 22:18 Darkomicron wrote:On May 08 2012 22:11 ckolev wrote:On May 08 2012 22:09 Felnarion wrote:On May 08 2012 22:02 ckolev wrote:
One simple fact is ignored here - VRs were designed to kill big targets, targets with a lot of HP. From this very basic idea comes that the are not quite effective versus small targets, that they cannot get charged upon. There is no need to change anything on them.
Also on Grubbys experiment - there is a random factor in the battle. Also of course that the +1 Weapons upgrade will kill units faster. But if the VR is used against a large unit, even if the VR has +3, he will still charge up and fulfil his goal.
The result might also come from the VRs themselves. The total HP of a VR might be just at the border between being charged after killing the other VR and not being charged (in case of +1W, just a few HP less than needed to charge up).
Anyway there are more important things in the game to take care of, than making these small calculations. The argument that VRs are meant to kill big things is moot. If one is fighting a colossus that has been damaged to the appropriate amount of hit points, the VR kills it before it charges and does less damage to the next colossus. The point is that nothing else in the game has any scenario where it does less damage with more upgrades. OK what kills a Hatch/CC/Nexus faster - upgraded VR or non-upgarded VR??? There is no other unit in SC2 who's damage scales like the VR. He is unique and misusing it does not mean it needs to be changed. Also is the VR better against other VRs or Carriers??? The fact that the VR is designed to kill big (massive) units is I think unquestionable. It's not about the fact that a void ray is designed to take out big targets. It's about the fact that a +1 damage upgrade on a void ray can sometimes lead to damage reduction because it takes out a target before getting charged. If an unupgraded void ray would've attacked it would've gotten a charge and therefore dealt more damage. As said earlier. If there are 3 colossi with low HP, an unupgraded voidray could charge and kill them faster than an upgraded voidray that does not get charged. This applies to units like marines and scvs without any damage as well. Again this is all because of the fact that the VR has a unique damage scale system. That is the reason to pre-charge the VR before battle. Anyway for me a +1 is always better than no upgrades at all. An unupgraded voidray kills 45 SCV's faster than an upgraded one kills 40. http://drop.sc/174854That's plain weird, to me at least.
I'm sticking to "VRs are ment to kill targets with lots of HP, Bob".
And also again - VRs system to do damage is unique so it should not be analysed the same way as other units damage systems.
Same as you don't use immortals to kill lings (efficiently) or you don't use roaches vs mass tanks.
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On May 08 2012 22:32 ckolev wrote:
Also if we look at the VR damage (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Void_Ray), it actually has a very high rate of fire so it scales even better with attack upgrades.
10-16 VS armored with no upgrades
11-18 VS armored +1W
12-20 VS armored +2W
13-22 VS armored +3W
So even if with +1 it might be a bad idea to do a timing push, with +2/+3 VRs become better.
I'm kind of at a loss at this point for how you can defend it. It's not about how much damage it does. If the overall damage needs to be nerfed, whatever. The problem is, a unit that can be in a scenario where it does less damage after an upgrade (all other things, control, position, etc being equal) is bad unit design.
We all understand that, if you charge up before going in, then the upgraded damage is better, but that isn't always an option.
Even if its one out of 1000 games, and in this one game, a guy has a void ray which he sends at a colossus he previously damaged, a colossus protected by a couple units...there is a scenario where the colossus has a certain amount of HP that doesn't allow the VR to charge, and therefore causes the VR to die before killing off the units. It is essentially punishing a player, even in very limited circumstances, for getting an upgrade for his units. That should never, in a well-designed game, be the case. I don't know what more there is to say than that.
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On May 08 2012 22:41 Felnarion wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 22:32 ckolev wrote:
Also if we look at the VR damage (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Void_Ray), it actually has a very high rate of fire so it scales even better with attack upgrades.
10-16 VS armored with no upgrades
11-18 VS armored +1W
12-20 VS armored +2W
13-22 VS armored +3W
So even if with +1 it might be a bad idea to do a timing push, with +2/+3 VRs become better. I'm kind of at a loss at this point for how you can defend it. It's not about how much damage it does. If the overall damage needs to be nerfed, whatever. The problem is, a unit that can be in a scenario where it does less damage after an upgrade (all other things, control, position, etc being equal) is bad unit design. We all understand that, if you charge up before going in, then the upgraded damage is better, but that isn't always an option. Even if its one out of 1000 games, and in this one game, a guy has a void ray which he sends at a colossus he previously damaged, a colossus protected by a couple units...there is a scenario where the colossus has a certain amount of HP that doesn't allow the VR to charge, and therefore causes the VR to die before killing off the units. It is essentially punishing a player, even in very limited circumstances, for getting an upgrade for his units. That should never, in a well-designed game, be the case. I don't know what more there is to say than that.
OK you need to understand the difference between damage and DPS. What you are talking about is DPS - damage per second.
I'm talking about damage. What grubby has also noticed is that the DPS of non-upgraded VRs is lower than that of the upgraded. Mathematically that's not possible. The +1W gives 1 damage (from 6 to 7 stage 1 and 8-9 stage 2). This is roughly 12-15% more damage. 126VR - 120 VR = 6VR (5%). So the upgraded VRs have more DPS aslo. The problem here comes from the fact how the VRs charge up. If the upgraded VRs target the same targets, they will kill it, before charging up, but if each of them fires at an individual target, all will charge up. Same for he others.
In order to complete the test properly you need smaller numbers, but keep the 5% difference. Also you will have to make sure that each VR on both sides fire at individual targets or couple of VRs from each side target the same target (3VRs from each side target 1). This test is incredible difficult to achieve. If someone can do it, it will put a end to this discussion with solid facts with no random chance.
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On May 08 2012 22:40 ckolev wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 22:35 Darkomicron wrote:On May 08 2012 22:23 ckolev wrote:On May 08 2012 22:18 Darkomicron wrote:On May 08 2012 22:11 ckolev wrote:On May 08 2012 22:09 Felnarion wrote:On May 08 2012 22:02 ckolev wrote:
One simple fact is ignored here - VRs were designed to kill big targets, targets with a lot of HP. From this very basic idea comes that the are not quite effective versus small targets, that they cannot get charged upon. There is no need to change anything on them.
Also on Grubbys experiment - there is a random factor in the battle. Also of course that the +1 Weapons upgrade will kill units faster. But if the VR is used against a large unit, even if the VR has +3, he will still charge up and fulfil his goal.
The result might also come from the VRs themselves. The total HP of a VR might be just at the border between being charged after killing the other VR and not being charged (in case of +1W, just a few HP less than needed to charge up).
Anyway there are more important things in the game to take care of, than making these small calculations. The argument that VRs are meant to kill big things is moot. If one is fighting a colossus that has been damaged to the appropriate amount of hit points, the VR kills it before it charges and does less damage to the next colossus. The point is that nothing else in the game has any scenario where it does less damage with more upgrades. OK what kills a Hatch/CC/Nexus faster - upgraded VR or non-upgarded VR??? There is no other unit in SC2 who's damage scales like the VR. He is unique and misusing it does not mean it needs to be changed. Also is the VR better against other VRs or Carriers??? The fact that the VR is designed to kill big (massive) units is I think unquestionable. It's not about the fact that a void ray is designed to take out big targets. It's about the fact that a +1 damage upgrade on a void ray can sometimes lead to damage reduction because it takes out a target before getting charged. If an unupgraded void ray would've attacked it would've gotten a charge and therefore dealt more damage. As said earlier. If there are 3 colossi with low HP, an unupgraded voidray could charge and kill them faster than an upgraded voidray that does not get charged. This applies to units like marines and scvs without any damage as well. Again this is all because of the fact that the VR has a unique damage scale system. That is the reason to pre-charge the VR before battle. Anyway for me a +1 is always better than no upgrades at all. An unupgraded voidray kills 45 SCV's faster than an upgraded one kills 40. http://drop.sc/174854That's plain weird, to me at least. I'm sticking to "VRs are ment to kill targets with lots of HP, Bob". And also again - VRs system to do damage is unique so it should not be analysed the same way as other units damage systems. Same as you don't use immortals to kill lings (efficiently) or you don't use roaches vs mass tanks.
So VR is a hard counter to BC, Carrier, Mothership, and ultralisk, and as a hard counter, should obviously be useless otherwise.
Oh, and considering that neither of them is very oftenly used en mase, VR is just plain useless by the design, and nobody should viev it as wrong and propose changes. right. Right?>
Dismissing the analyse without making a better suggestion is useless.
Does +1 attack makes Immortals worse an killing lings? Maybe +1 makes roaches worse at killing tanks?
The major point is, upgrades should make units better, or at least leave it not worse.
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On May 08 2012 22:57 naastyOne wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 22:40 ckolev wrote:On May 08 2012 22:35 Darkomicron wrote:On May 08 2012 22:23 ckolev wrote:On May 08 2012 22:18 Darkomicron wrote:On May 08 2012 22:11 ckolev wrote:On May 08 2012 22:09 Felnarion wrote:On May 08 2012 22:02 ckolev wrote:
One simple fact is ignored here - VRs were designed to kill big targets, targets with a lot of HP. From this very basic idea comes that the are not quite effective versus small targets, that they cannot get charged upon. There is no need to change anything on them.
Also on Grubbys experiment - there is a random factor in the battle. Also of course that the +1 Weapons upgrade will kill units faster. But if the VR is used against a large unit, even if the VR has +3, he will still charge up and fulfil his goal.
The result might also come from the VRs themselves. The total HP of a VR might be just at the border between being charged after killing the other VR and not being charged (in case of +1W, just a few HP less than needed to charge up).
Anyway there are more important things in the game to take care of, than making these small calculations. The argument that VRs are meant to kill big things is moot. If one is fighting a colossus that has been damaged to the appropriate amount of hit points, the VR kills it before it charges and does less damage to the next colossus. The point is that nothing else in the game has any scenario where it does less damage with more upgrades. OK what kills a Hatch/CC/Nexus faster - upgraded VR or non-upgarded VR??? There is no other unit in SC2 who's damage scales like the VR. He is unique and misusing it does not mean it needs to be changed. Also is the VR better against other VRs or Carriers??? The fact that the VR is designed to kill big (massive) units is I think unquestionable. It's not about the fact that a void ray is designed to take out big targets. It's about the fact that a +1 damage upgrade on a void ray can sometimes lead to damage reduction because it takes out a target before getting charged. If an unupgraded void ray would've attacked it would've gotten a charge and therefore dealt more damage. As said earlier. If there are 3 colossi with low HP, an unupgraded voidray could charge and kill them faster than an upgraded voidray that does not get charged. This applies to units like marines and scvs without any damage as well. Again this is all because of the fact that the VR has a unique damage scale system. That is the reason to pre-charge the VR before battle. Anyway for me a +1 is always better than no upgrades at all. An unupgraded voidray kills 45 SCV's faster than an upgraded one kills 40. http://drop.sc/174854That's plain weird, to me at least. I'm sticking to "VRs are ment to kill targets with lots of HP, Bob". And also again - VRs system to do damage is unique so it should not be analysed the same way as other units damage systems. Same as you don't use immortals to kill lings (efficiently) or you don't use roaches vs mass tanks. So VR is a hard counter to BC, Carrier, Mothership, and ultralisk, and as a hard counter, should obviously be useless otherwise. Oh, and considering that neither of them is very oftenly used en mase, VR is just plain useless by the design, and nobody should viev it as wrong and propose changes. right. Right?> Dismissing the analyse without making a better suggestion is useless. Does +1 attack makes Immortals worse an killing lings? Maybe +1 makes roaches worse at killing tanks? The major point is, upgrades should make units better, or at least leave it not worse.
1st - have you played SC: Brood War? Why exclude the idea that there can be a useless unit?? Ever seen the Scout?
I'm not saying it should be useless, I'm saying its not efficient enough.
2nd - as I stated this experiment has too much randomness. I suggested an alternative that can show the effectiveness(look previous post from me).
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EPT
