[D] Grubby on Void Rays - Page 4

On May 05 2012 04:04 Derrida wrote:


so that the time it takes for a VR to kill a zergling and an ultralisk is equal?

On May 05 2012 19:06 freetgy wrote:


the match behind is very simple.

lvl1 = standard attack
lvl2 = precharge (level where voidray doesn't loses his precharge when switching targets)
lvl3 = full charge (dmg booost)

it takes 6 attacks for a Voidray to reach lvl2
this means:

+0 Voidray:
6*6 = 36 dmg (vs. light) = thus lvl2 can be reached 1 voidray if it attacks a probe alone

+1 Voidray:
6*7 = 42dmg (vs. light) = thus lvl2 can't be reached since unit dies charge ticks are lost when switching to the next target.
(i.e. can't charge on probes anymore)
+2 Voidray:
6*8 = 48dmg
(i.e. can't charge on scvs/ unupgraded marines anymore)

+3 Voidray:
6*9 = 54 dmg

same applies for the armor bonus dmg
10 * 6 = 60dmg needs to be dealt to a single armored unit before it dies
+1
11*6 = 66
+2
12*6 = 72
+3
13*6 = 78

and this is the optimal preset where we assume only the Voidray attacks the unit.
If other units shoot these too and voidray can't reach lvl2 and never reach lvl3 because charge is lost every time the focussed unit dies.

Especially in lategame this gets even worse, because splash damage comes to please which reduces the overall hp of single units so Voidrays most likely can't deal their 6 attack ticks on a single unit.

The charge mechanic is just broken in general imho.
(I mean where seriously is this unit used? except from early game harass vs. Zerg is has become absolutely useless unit)

On May 05 2012 19:29 Markwerf wrote:
VRs just suck when massed. Unlike some casters say without reason that VRs have a 'critical mass' where they start to kill instantly VRs actually don't benefit from higher numbers as they charge less.

This is not a practical problem at all for normal games. The amount of VRs you get and the units you target should always suffice to get them charged really

On May 05 2012 19:26 Elp wrote:

Sorry, but that just isn't correct

First of all, why do you assume there is a precharge level? There's no mention of this anywhere. Also, if such a precharge level exists and it takes 6 attacks to get to it, it would indeed charge against Probes. However, Voidrays do NOT charge against Probes.
Furthermore, according to your math +1 Voidrays will still charge up against SCV's, but they don't.

This also doesn't explain why a Voidray charges up against the 3rd SCV and not on the 2nd.

On May 05 2012 20:08 Baum wrote:
I have read through this thread and I am kind of confused about this discussion. Right now there are only a few situations where players implement Void Rays into their army composition aside from early game harassment. The role of Void Rays in the protoss arsenal right now is an early game attacking unit and a situational counter unit in mid and late game against certain compositions. The reason for this is the charge mechanic.

We have seen how problematic this mechanic can be in the earlier stages of Sc2 where at one point Void Ray all ins became close to unstoppable. Making changes like letting the Void Ray charge up faster or charge up after a kill will make the Void Ray very powerful in the early game again. The problem with charge is that if they charge up too quickly they become too powerful in the early game and if they charge up to slowly they are useless in the late game. Right now they see situational use in both early and late game so maybe blizzard has actually found the sweet spot for this unit.

If you propose a significant change like that you should make a more elaborate point and think about all the implications it has. Obviously attack damage would have to change as well and the whole role of the Void Ray would change so as long as no one has made a good point about how you can change the Void Ray without messing with too much other stuff I am very much against it.

On May 05 2012 20:16 Darkomicron wrote:


The problem isn't necessarily that the charge mechanic is wrong. It's that the charge mechanic messes with upgrades. Upgrades should always make a unit stronger, in every situation. That's why you upgrade them! However, as my previous post demonstrated, in many cases a +1 voidray can't charge on units where an unupgraded voidray could charge on. If a +1 voidray doesn't get charged, the unupgraded voidray will end up dealing more damage because it is charged.

The only change that has to be made is to make sure the void ray keeps charging, even though it's upgraded. Getting air weapon should always be beneficial. Perhaps a good idea is to make a voidray charge up based on how much damage it does within x seconds. If you deal damage it starts charging. If you stop dealing damage a 5 second timer starts. If you start dealing damage within that time, it will continue to charge. If you do not deal damage within that time, the charge falters. This way you can attack and get charged on 3 zerglings, instead of killing 1, losing the charging, starting on another one, it dies too quickly, losing the charge again... Starting on the third... etc.

On May 05 2012 19:31 Fogetaboudit wrote:


you are wrong, unfortunately I'm not at liberty to point you in the direction of proof. Do some research imo.

On May 05 2012 20:18 Th1rdEye wrote:
Maybe the real answer is dont mass voidrays.

They aren't meant to counter everything?

So what if they don't charge. The upgrades are meant to increase DPS, which means KILLING THINGS FASTER -.-

Voidrays are meant to counter ultralisks, broodlords, etc. Sure the DPS may increase, but that means that lowers the DPS of the opponent? Think about it.

I dont see how them not charging as fast has any difference at all. The real problem is because you have too many voidrays to even let them charge if you are massing them.. because the DPS is too high regardless of the upgs

It is a little weird that you might not get a full charge.. but think about it. why don't you charge ? because the enemy unit dies faster..therefore making the increase in DPS from the upgrade obvious..?

On May 05 2012 20:22 Baum wrote:


This would be a terrible change. Don't you realize that this would make Void Rays so much more powerful in early game situations while taking away the need to micro them?

On May 05 2012 20:59 Darkomicron wrote:It won't take away the need to micro them. You still have to keep attacking and making sure your voidrays stay charged. The only change that will be made is that it won't lose it's charge if it can't kill a unit. Effectively making a voidray able to power up on small units as well.

On May 05 2012 03:07 chestnutcc wrote:
Grubby's solution is v warcraft 3 like i.e. giving void rays an XP mechanic.

On May 05 2012 21:04 Baum wrote:


Which is why it is too strong. Blizzard has buffed the damage versus light to make up for not being able to charge. You don't have to decide anymore which units to focus because you will charge anyway. Explain to me why you should be able to charge on everything?

On May 05 2012 19:50 FeyFey wrote:
i really hope they don't turn another one of the protoss micro units into a noob unit, like the immortal or the phoenix, no challenge to use them anymore. And charging voidrays is really easy compared to controlling a range 5 immortal, or fighting mutas with range 4 phoenix x3.
But normal protoss players generally don't like to micro and optimize their unit. Otherwise chargelots wouldn't be on autocast anymore x3.

still think its easy enough to charge voidrays in a battle, but that is also something that goes into pre battle preperation, something alot of people don't like doing. and just a move over the map, because its saver.