EPT[D] Grubby on Void Rays - Page 6
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theazntiger
13 Posts
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nucLeaRTV
Romania822 Posts
Also: Make the the damage increase exponentially every time a Void ray shoots. + Show Spoiler + j/k | ||
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aintz
Canada5624 Posts
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Elp
Netherlands86 Posts
On May 06 2012 03:02 Darkomicron wrote: Indeed. It's a reason to fix it. Like I said before, the rest is a matter of numbers and balancing. In such a competetive game as SC2 things should make perfect sense. You have to react and actions you make need to have a reliable outcome. If you blink your stalkers, you know how far they'll go. Imagine if they suddenly blink a lesser distance. That's not what you want. Although the void ray may not be influenced greatly, these 'weird' occurrences do not belong in the game. Yeah, if each attack is stored then that would indeed fix these problems. It doesn't really matter how, if you use damage instead of number of attacks. Keep the attacks stored for X seconds, resetting the counter when the void ray attacks again. Or the energy system I brought up earlier. They all work and would result in a better void ray unit. The 'numbers and balancing' are in fact the most important aspects of a possible fix. For example, if the Voidray is changed so that it stores its attacks, it means it will be able to charge up against Drones and Probes, leading to a 33% damage output increase on Protoss/Zerg worker lines. That's horribly broken. You can't just post "fixes" that break the balance significantly and then ignore the numbers and nerfs that would be required to re-balance it. BTW: There is a difference between storing attacks or damage. Weapon upgrades increase the damage output, so an X amount of damage is achieved faster with upgrades, leading to a shorter charge time which further increases DPS. You could make the X amount of damage increase relative with weapon upgrade levels, but that means the Voidray will be unable to charge against certain units (same situation as we have right now). Storing damage definitely is not the way to go. | ||
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ZjiublingZ
United Arab Emirates439 Posts
I have tried with smaller numbers of Void Ray vs +1 Void Ray and Void Ray vs Roach compared to +1 Void Ray vs Roach and each time the +1 is better. | ||
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Zio
United States48 Posts
Perhaps 6 levels of charge with each taking half the time to reach, so that more charges may be obtained in the short lifespans of units. I apologize if someone already suggested this. | ||
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nShade
Bulgaria296 Posts
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Aveng3r
United States2411 Posts
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Fig
United States1324 Posts
On May 06 2012 05:48 Aveng3r wrote: wouldnt it make sense to just upgrade the armor instead of the attack then? No, in any real game it would be better to upgrade shields because despite being armored units, voidrays do not start with any armor, so adding 1 armor to either shields or armor would be the first. And while shields would help a bit less on the voids in particular than armor (100 shields vs 150hp), shields also affects all other units and buildings, whereas that ship armor will only be helping the voids and mothership. | ||
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aintz
Canada5624 Posts
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moQbara
Romania76 Posts
More examples of "bad upgrades": 1. Siege mode enables tanks to damage friendly units; 2. Stim pack enables infantry to lose HP on command; 3. Banelings die after use. One could argue that it's silly to upgrade a unit (zergling) only to lose the upgraded version after a single use (lol?). | ||
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DooMDash
United States1015 Posts
On May 06 2012 08:17 moQbara wrote: I tend to agree with it being a normal behavior. The voidray is not worse except some particular situations which are taken out of context (which is the game itself). You wouldn't need voidrays to kill those units anyway so it's irrelevant. More examples of "bad upgrades": 1. Siege mode enables tanks to damage friendly units; 2. Stim pack enables infantry to lose HP on command; 3. Banelings die after use. One could argue that it's silly to upgrade a unit (zergling) only to lose the upgraded version after a single use (lol?). I think you hit the nail on the head. | ||
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Genome852
United States979 Posts
On May 06 2012 08:17 moQbara wrote: I tend to agree with it being a normal behavior. The voidray is not worse except some particular situations which are taken out of context (which is the game itself). You wouldn't need voidrays to kill those units anyway so it's irrelevant. More examples of "bad upgrades": 1. Siege mode enables tanks to damage friendly units; 2. Stim pack enables infantry to lose HP on command; 3. Banelings die after use. One could argue that it's silly to upgrade a unit (zergling) only to lose the upgraded version after a single use (lol?). I don't get your logic at all. Void rays get worse in some situations after upgrading air weapons... what other unit gets weaker with higher armor/weapon upgrades? This is a flaw but in a real game as others have tested I doubt it makes a big difference. edit: fixed fail sentence | ||
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Jarree
Finland1004 Posts
On May 06 2012 14:43 Genome852 wrote: I don't get your logic at all. Void rays getting worse in some situations after upgrading air weapons does not. What other unit gets weaker with better upgrades? This is a flaw but in a real game as others have tested I doubt it makes a big difference. Void rays dont become worse with +1 attack, only in extreme situations it could be possible (though the experiment isn't really foolproof). +2&+3 weapons for siege tanks when facing upgraded lings. Zerglings die to 1 shot so the rest of the dmg goes only to your marines/marauders. Of course you can find these scenarios, there's no need to change anything still. Just because 120 void rays act in some weird way, doesnt mean you need to buff them. Grubby knows this and is trying to fool others to believe it should be changed so his race gets a free buff  | ||
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Belisarius
Australia6232 Posts
The easiest solution is to have the void ray's charge state roll over iff the unit it's firing on dies. | ||
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TheAmazombie
United States3714 Posts
On May 06 2012 14:43 Genome852 wrote: I don't get your logic at all. Void rays getting worse in some situations after upgrading air weapons does not. What other unit gets weaker with better upgrades? This is a flaw but in a real game as others have tested I doubt it makes a big difference. The problem that I see though is that it doesn't necessarily make the unit weaker. Killing shit faster is not always a bad thing at all, which is the entire argument for this Void Ray issue, isn't it? It kills stuff faster and therefore does not charge and deal higher damage as easily? Since when is it bad to kill stuff faster? Well, only in certain situations. It just means that it affects that situation. VRs with upgrades will still deal more damage and be better against structures or large hit point units. To me the entire thing is just situational, not a "bug" or "problem." Just like in the Seige tank analogy...you don't like to use Seige tanks in certain situations because of the massive amounts of splash damage. | ||
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tehemperorer
United States2183 Posts
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Ktk
Korea (South)753 Posts
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Darkomicron
Netherlands216 Posts
+1 weapons or armor is always a positive upgrade. It makes all your units stronger, in every situation. Because it's a general upgrade for types of units it should not have a downside like unit specific upgrades. The irreversible +1 attack, +1 armor, or +1 shields for every race, you will never find a situation where it's bad to have one of these upgrades. Except for the void ray where it's been proven that in several situations a +1 void ray cannot charge on a unit type anymore. Does it matter that these situations don't happen often? Of course not! Everything that isn't right, should be fixed. No matter how small. I.e. if vikings when landed turned out to deal less damage to worker lines with a +1 upgrade than unupgraded, then that's a bug and it should be fixed. An argument like 'but you almost never land vikings in mineral lines' is absurd. | ||
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xtruder
Afghanistan135 Posts
For example, instead of 5 seconds to go to each new level, make it 100 damage dealt (within 5 seconds). Yes, that means the unit might need to be rebalanced, but protoss air needs a rebalance anyways. If protoss air becomes viable, then we can nerf archons/colossi a bit and then everyone will be happy. | ||
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