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On March 20 2013 23:22 Insoleet wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2013 22:06 Manch1ld wrote:
Thanks for this Jak. I had given The Core a "cursory" try and just didn't like the hand on the wrong side of the keyboard "fish out of water" effect. The Chameleon already feels much more organic and it appears I will stick with it. Couple of small notes/questions:
1. The cheat sheet indicates Shift+key to make CG's and Ctrl+Key to add to CG's. I believe that this is backwards, at least it is for me.
2. The place creep tumor for the queen is "2" but "s" for an actual creep tumor. Is there an ergonomically efficient way to make this the same for both? I would suggest "s" but I am curious if that would then make the subsequent moving of the spawn larvae to another key for the queen less efficient.
3. Ctrl+Shift+key for the layered cams seems, initially at least, to be quite unweildy for checking your camera views. What was the thought process behind this key choice? OF course this could all just be a part of getting used to the new set up and using the layered cams in general.
4. Is there any other position that the base camera key could be moved to from F1 that wouldn't mess up anything else on the setup while making the base camera button easier to access?
Cheers,
Manch1ld Personally, 1. Same for me. Shift to add, ctrl to set. But it's good this way, easier to learn. 2. I personally set the 2 key to place creep tumors from another creep tumor. This way, injects are still very fast with S being the best key. 3. Ctrl shit key ? I think it's ctrl+key... And alt+key to set the cam position. 4. Well personally, i have set base cam on spacebar. Then, switch inside the unit group is on tab. And i just drop one cam position to do so... That's a matter of preference i guess.
Thanks for the reply Insoleet  ,
your solution for point 2 stands as probably the best way for me to go and your point 4 solution was also what I had in my mind to toy with and possibly move the free cam to my mouse side button. As for point three, it is absolutely Ctrl+Shift+Key for LC recall. Alt+Key does set them as you indicated. Changing it to Ctrl+Key for recall may be feasible, but, I was looking for Jak's reasoning for setting it up as Ctrl+Shift+Key before doing so as there may be something that the current setup accounts for that I currently am unable to see.
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Well maybe i did so by myself, i forgot ^^
One more thing which can be useful for next Chameleon version (and zerg players)
The problem of the larvas (having 1 for Ultra, 2 for Vipers, and 3 for Infestors). I thought it was very inconvenient due to the fact that 1 and 2 are "far away" keys.
But actually that was not the problem. I was missclicking because vipers are on the left in the icon list, and they are place on 2. Ultra are on the right, and they are placed on 1. So it was very inconvenient for the brain.
Now i just set Ultra on 2 and vipers on 1, and i dont missclick anymore : )
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1. Ctrl to add and shift to set makes cominations easier, like egg hotkeying, or removing a unit from your CG to scout with
2. I missed the creep tumor thing! Sorry. It has been fixed and uploaded to the skydrive. 2 is creep tumor for both :D
3. There are only so many modifier combinations. Unfortunately Ctrl+Shift was the only one left. Ideally we'd have the same modifiers as TheCore, but it would mean some far reaches for setting CGs. If we were to do this, I'd get rid of the free cams, and make them all layered.
Hope that helps. We're doing a big overhaul of TheCore right now, so I won't have time to work on Chameleon for a bit. I am planning on making a version 2.1 based on the feedback I've been getting from 2.0.
Thanks again :D
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On March 20 2013 23:49 JaKaTaK wrote:1. Ctrl to add and shift to set makes cominations easier, like egg hotkeying, or removing a unit from your CG to scout with 2. I missed the creep tumor thing! Sorry. It has been fixed and uploaded to the skydrive. 2 is creep tumor for both :D 3. There are only so many modifier combinations. Unfortunately Ctrl+Shift was the only one left. Ideally we'd have the same modifiers as TheCore, but it would mean some far reaches for setting CGs. If we were to do this, I'd get rid of the free cams, and make them all layered. Hope that helps. We're doing a big overhaul of TheCore right now, so I won't have time to work on Chameleon for a bit. I am planning on making a version 2.1 based on the feedback I've been getting from 2.0. Thanks again :D
Thanks for the response as well Jak ,
1. I might not have been clear with this point, the cheat sheet says Ctrl to create and Shift to add, but, the actual hotkey setup unaltered direct from the download is the other way around. Just pointing out an inconsistency between the cheat sheet and the setup. Just being a copy editor .
2. Cool, glad I could help. :D
3. That's what I figured. Again, thanks for all you do to try and make us all better players.
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ooooooooooooooooooohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.............. fuck.... I'll take a look at that. Thanks
EDIT: Fixed!
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Hmm, that's odd, when I downloaded 2.0 just a few weeks ago, Recall Camera could be done with EITHER Ctrl+key OR Ctrl+Shift+key. I changed the Ctrl+Shift+key to Shift+key and know of no conflicts...
And on the point of Ctrl to add and Shift to set, I have to say I think the advantages are not so pronounced as in TheCore, because the pinky has a more difficult time pressing Ctrl+key than Shift+key whereas the thumb doesn't. I still have my layout on the conventional way (again, dl'ed the file a few weeks ago, and didn't change that aspect. Would I be right to assume you've modified the file recently, JaKaTaK?).
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I modified it minutes ago. Feel free to use the modifiers you like best of course
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How are you supposed to efficiently macro with Protoss using this setup? Right now I hit the 'D' key to bring up the gateways/robo/stargate and then I have to hold CTRL and hit S to bring my screen to a pylon I want to warp in at. I used to use 5 as my gateway hotkey and F4 (directly above 5) as my warp-in location, and having to use a modifier to use the camera location is a bit of a pain - I feel that I am slower doing this than hitting 5+F4. Is there something I am missing?
Update: So I changed the hotkeys a bit to make it better for how I personally like to hotkey. I find it easier to hotkey my units holding the shift key rather than the ctrl key. The ctrl key is for 'hard' setting the group, but even when creating a control group I like to just shift-add into the group, I actually really only use ctrl+'D' (for example) if I accidentally shift add something into that group, and then I'll shift-deselect it, and then 'hard' hotkey that group to remove the accidental addition.
So I changed the camera hotkey recall button from ctrl+S (the camera location I use) to shift+S, which feels a lot more natural and easier since I keep my pinky on the shift key, and using a camera location required me to move it to the ctrl key.
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I just started learning Chamleon. And, it's definitely better than the traditional method. Jakatak, you rock. Tjank you for all the work and help you've done.
I spent about 30 mintues looking and can't seem to find answer to these 2 easy questions.
1. When you put all the production on the "d" key, how do you make units? When I group the rax and factory together, I can only make the rax units. How do I make the factory units?
2. Similarly, how do you upgrade the armory? After I group the ebay and armory together, only the ebay upgrades show up.
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On March 21 2013 02:51 perspicaciousinnate wrote:
I just started learning Chamleon. And, it's definitely better than the traditional method. Jakatak, you rock. Tjank you for all the work and help you've done.
I spent about 30 mintues looking and can't seem to find answer to these 2 easy questions.
1. When you put all the production on the "d" key, how do you make units? When I group the rax and factory together, I can only make the rax units. How do I make the factory units?
2. Similarly, how do you upgrade the armory? After I group the ebay and armory together, only the ebay upgrades show up.
You have to use the space bar. So for example, you press 'D', which brings up your barracks and your factory, so you press the hotkey to make a marine (for example), then press space bar, then you'll have your factory units selected. The space bar is the button that allows you to switch between the types of buildings you have selected. So for a protoss, I hotkey my gateway, robotics facility, and stargate on 'D'. So if I want to make a zealot, a void ray, and a colossus I press: D -> A -> Space -> V -> Space -> W. The D selects the gate/star/robo, the A makes a zealot, space to select the next building type in the hotkey (stargate), V for void ray, space bar to select the next building type (robo), W for colossus.
The thing to remember is that buildings, like units, have a priority. So if you group a marine and a ghost, the ghost will always be the first unit selected, not the marine, even if you group the marine first, then the ghost - it will rearrange them. The same thing happens with buildings, so you always know how many tabs you need to get to the desired building (memory) - unless of course you lose a factory, rax, starport - but that's a different scenario entirely.
Same works for upgrades.
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@Salv
Ideally we'd have the modifiers (ctrl, alt, shift) as they are in TheCore, but it is not possible without big reaches or flipping the CG and Ability sides (which I'm still considering). We can't bind cameras to shift because then we cannot shift queue abilites.
@persp
Press the "Next Subgroup" button. (Spacebar)
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On March 21 2013 03:11 JaKaTaK wrote:
@Salv
Ideally we'd have the modifiers (ctrl, alt, shift) as they are in TheCore, but it is not possible without big reaches or flipping the CG and Ability sides (which I'm still considering). We can't bind cameras to shift because then we cannot shift queue abilites.
@persp
Press the "Next Subgroup" button. (Spacebar)
Ah, so I had Shift + A as a camera location recall, that would mean I cannot shift commands? Dang.
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I'm having trouble with the download on my mac. For some reason it's downloading as a .txt file, not the .sc2hotkeys like is what required. I don't know if I'm missing something here or if I'm doing something wrong, which is a definite possibility. Any ideas? Really looking forward to trying it out after my long break
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I'm pretty sure you can just change the file extension manually. Have you tried that?
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Ah didn't think of that, it did the trick. Thanks!
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I just switched over today, ex-masters toss very excited to try this out. Currently I've just been playing vs the AI to get my feet wet. Does anyone have any drills or something to practice with?
I've played with standard hotkeys since BW, so this is a very different experience. I switched assign/add to control groups to ctrl/shift instead of shift/ctrl because that just wasn't going to work for me after 10 years of the other way around. Other than that, I've left everything default so far, time to see how I like it.
Has anyone learned this for two different races yet? I like to play T in 2s and for kicks every now and then, is switching races easy enough?
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I was confused when I first encountered layered cams and think I can explain them to clear up some recent questions.
With layered camera hotkeying, the camera keys are on the same keys used for command card buttons, but can be thought of as a separate "layer" of keying because of modifier usage (ctrl and alt). This allows the usage of all 8 cams within reach (Imagine trying to fit 8 more keys into this setup). Since Shift + a command card button will queue that action in most cases, Shift can't be used with layered cam keys.
Understanding Hand Position:
1. Note that the keys used are Q, A, Z, W, S, X and that they are two vertical columns of keys on the keyboard.
2. Put your pinky on Ctrl and your ring finger on Shift. Now your middle finger will be used for the first column QAZ and your pointer finger will be used for column WSX.
3. Set a cam with your thumb on Alt. Recall with your pinky on Ctrl. (When camming, I don't rest my pinky and thumb on those keys at the same time. It feels weird. You'll only have to press one or the other.)
Usage:
When setting a cam, slide your hand left from normal rest position until your thumb is on alt and middle and pointer fingers are in their columns.
When recalling, slide your hand left from normal rest position until your pinky is on Ctrl and middle and pointer are in their columns.
Further Notes:
Both Ctrl+Shift and Ctrl by itself are set to recall. You can use either, since your fingers are on those keys anyway. I simply use Ctrl, because it's less prone to mistakes than holding two keys down.
For my setup, I removed the free cams and setup 1 and 2 as additional layered cams, since they happen to fill out the rest of the vertical lines of cams.
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On March 21 2013 10:57 Karnul wrote:
I was confused when I first encountered layered cams and think I can explain them to clear up some recent questions.
With layered camera hotkeying, the camera keys are on the same keys used for command card buttons, but can be thought of as a separate "layer" of keying because of modifier usage (ctrl and alt). This allows the usage of all 8 cams within reach (Imagine trying to fit 8 more keys into this setup). Since Shift + a command card button will queue that action in most cases, Shift can't be used with layered cam keys.
Understanding Hand Position:
1. Note that the keys used are Q, A, Z, W, S, X and that they are two vertical columns of keys on the keyboard.
2. Put your pinky on Ctrl and your ring finger on Shift. Now your middle finger will be used for the first column QAZ and your pointer finger will be used for column WSX.
3. Set a cam with your thumb on Alt. Recall with your pinky on Ctrl. (When camming, I don't rest my pinky and thumb on those keys at the same time. It feels weird. You'll only have to press one or the other.)
Usage:
When setting a cam, slide your hand left from normal rest position until your thumb is on alt and middle and pointer fingers are in their columns.
When recalling, slide your hand left from normal rest position until your pinky is on Ctrl and middle and pointer are in their columns.
Further Notes:
Both Ctrl+Shift and Ctrl by itself are set to recall. You can use either, since your fingers are on those keys anyway. I simply use Ctrl, because it's less prone to mistakes than holding two keys down.
For my setup, I removed the free cams and setup 1 and 2 as additional layered cams, since they happen to fill out the rest of the vertical lines of cams.
Thanks for this Karnul,
I had "seen" the location of the camera keys but hadn't yet visualized the simplicity of the hand positioning for accessing the cameras, I had only experienced the uncomfortable feeling of Ctrl-Shift. I was also unaware that the cams could be recalled with only Ctrl+Key. That will make the cam recall much easier and more comfortable.
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Oddly enough, I too was unaware that you could recall with only the Ctrl Key... I do think we'll be moving to all layered cameras and bringing the CGs closer with the next update
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EPT
