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awwnuts07
United States621 Posts
On June 05 2012 20:05 TheExodus wrote: 50+ probes and 100 supply by 10 minutes using a 1-gate FE. Haven't benchmarked my other builds yet. Only way I was able to get close to this number was when I was producing strictly off of gateways. Does this benchmark exclude upgrades and a robo? | ||
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TheExodus
293 Posts
On June 07 2012 15:49 awwnuts07 wrote: Only way I was able to get close to this number was when I was producing strictly off of gateways. Does this benchmark exclude upgrades and a robo? It's with a robo and +1/+1 started. I pretty much do MCs 1-gate FE and follow it up with double forge a'la CreatorPrime. | ||
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awwnuts07
United States621 Posts
On June 07 2012 15:56 TheExodus wrote: It's with a robo and +1/+1 started. I pretty much do MCs 1-gate FE and follow it up with double forge a'la CreatorPrime. Ok. It's as I suspected then. My macro just sucks. | ||
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TheExodus
293 Posts
On June 07 2012 16:16 awwnuts07 wrote: Ok. It's as I suspected then. My macro just sucks. Well the first "few" times I tried against very easy AI I ended up with 40 probes and 75 supply, while now I hit them consistently in every game on the ladder. It just takes practice  I have a win ratio of 75% (95% in PvT) since I started working on it, but still stuck in bronze... My MMR must have been REALLY low. | ||
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Warmos
Finland9 Posts
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TheExodus
293 Posts
On June 07 2012 16:32 Warmos wrote: 1 gate FE i have 63-64 probes at 10min mark. I havent still tested what i can add during that time 60~ probes is fine i guess in 10min mark Depends on which build you do, of course. I expand at 30 while some do it at 20-24. That extra minute makes a lot of difference in probe count, but also in safety. | ||
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Shmu
Canada27 Posts
- Stim + Medivacs - Stalker/Sentry/Immortal - Forcefields - Drops ... in episode 4, when fighting void ray/carrier, it comes up that "2 base roach" will eventually stop working. Is that what I'm dealing with here? ( that being said, I'm still winning all my ZvZs ) | ||
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awwnuts07
United States621 Posts
On June 07 2012 16:21 TheExodus wrote: Well the first "few" times I tried against very easy AI I ended up with 40 probes and 75 supply, while now I hit them consistently in every game on the ladder. It just takes practice I have a win ratio of 75% (95% in PvT) since I started working on it, but still stuck in bronze... My MMR must have been REALLY low. Realized my mistake, I was doing the old version of the 1 gate FE where you cut probes to get your buildings down. Don't worry about your rank. Just work on that macro. Truth be told, I'm in gold (playing plats/golds) and a lot of people don't hit Filter's benchmarks. If you can manage to keep that level of macro while running around with some scouting units, you'll be set. | ||
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TheExodus
293 Posts
On June 08 2012 01:37 awwnuts07 wrote: Realized my mistake, I was doing the old version of the 1 gate FE where you cut probes to get your buildings down. Don't worry about your rank. Just work on that macro. Truth be told, I'm in gold (playing plats/golds) and a lot of people don't hit Filter's benchmarks. If you can manage to keep that level of macro while running around with some scouting units, you'll be set. I cut probes at 30 to get the nexus and two gates down. If I am forced to take gas and drop the robo before I resume production again it gets harder to hit those benchmarks, but it's doable. I don't really care about what league I'm in, just curious as to why I'm still in bronze when kicking ass I suspect my MMR was shot to hell before. | ||
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zoglug
United Kingdom56 Posts
I lost 4 games to what i thought were early pushes, but they all hit when i should have had a number of roaches out (ie after 9 mins) and if my macro was better i would have been in a much better position to deal with these! After winning 13 on the trot at one point, i thought i was doing fantastic, now i know i still need to really work on my macro! | ||
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Shmu
Canada27 Posts
On June 08 2012 20:45 zoglug wrote: I had a bad day on the ladder yesterday . . . So, this morning i decided to start going through my replays and logging my benchmarks and wow has it been an eye opener! . . . now i know i still need to really work on my macro! I know how you feel Zoglug, I feel like I've hit a wall too... it's so easy to shrug off missing benchmarks a little, for a while I was nailing the 6:00minute benchmarks, everytime. 35, 36, 37 drones - never less. I was focusing completely on the 6-8 minutes, trying to get to 60 drones... I felt like I was getting better at managing everything, I got comfortable. then I started losing games at first it felt like "tactical" mistakes, or "hard counters" or "He just out-macro'd me"... but everytime I check my replays, my benchmarks are off - or I got thrown off my game by harass or something. Gotta keep it together, stay calm, make more drones... | ||
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Elbows
20 Posts
On June 08 2012 20:45 zoglug wrote: I had a bad day on the ladder yesterday, dropping from top spot to 7th and i got really wound up. So, this morning i decided to start going through my replays and logging my benchmarks and wow has it been an eye opener! In my last 10 games (only got this far) not once have i hit the drone benchmarks! At 8 mins ive not got above 45 drones! Only 3 queens out, lair/warren/evo's all late! I lost 4 games to what i thought were early pushes, but they all hit when i should have had a number of roaches out (ie after 9 mins) and if my macro was better i would have been in a much better position to deal with these! After winning 13 on the trot at one point, i thought i was doing fantastic, now i know i still need to really work on my macro! I know exactly how you feel and what I think happens to people in general is that people try this style of learning out, and especially at the lower leagues immediately have so much success that it's like a switch gets flipped on where they're like "omg all I have to do is hit these benchmarks and there's no way I can lose!". For a while it works like that, but as you start to rank up eventually you will hit people who do pretty good 1 base all ins or that have similar macro with perhaps better compositions and all the sudden you're like "Well, I can't just blindly make marines w/ 2 medivacs and win every game even if I hit the timings". This started happening to me especially in TvT where I kept getting killed 1 base all ins (can be held with 1rax FE I know but still I was dying a lot). And so you end up trying to change the build order up a little bit to accommodate some of the all ins and whatnot and you also need to scout more and what happens is that your macro slips but you don't really notice. Eventually after hitting the benchmarks consistently for so long you just assume you're continuing to hit numbers even though they've gradually slipped without you realizing it. So what happens is you end up losing macro games you used to win and STILL lose to all-ins and cheese. This puts you on tilt and then you end up beating your wife and kids. Moral of the story is, Filter causes child abuse. | ||
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Filter
Canada620 Posts
On June 07 2012 23:38 Shmu wrote: Okay. I think I may have reached the limits of Zerg silver benchmarks... I'm getting matched up against Diamond leaguers now, and I'm getting stomped by the following: - Stim + Medivacs - Stalker/Sentry/Immortal - Forcefields - Drops ... in episode 4, when fighting void ray/carrier, it comes up that "2 base roach" will eventually stop working. Is that what I'm dealing with here? ( that being said, I'm still winning all my ZvZs ) Yes, but if you're mechanics have pushed you to diamond level mmr you should feel safe branching off on your own. I will be covering the various tech paths and how to get there, but things like taking a third or forth etc and using different comps will be easy if you're killing pretty much everybody off the silver build. (your timings will be nice and crisp, and simply getting the units you want should be easy.) | ||
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Allenansgar
United States31 Posts
On June 09 2012 02:01 Elbows wrote: Eventually after hitting the benchmarks consistently for so long you just assume you're continuing to hit numbers even though they've gradually slipped without you realizing it. So what happens is you end up losing macro games you used to win and STILL lose to all-ins and cheese. This puts you on tilt and then you end up beating your wife and kids. Moral of the story is, Filter causes child abuse. LoL You make a lot of great points in your post and the sarcasm is hilarious. Poor Filter I think there have been many discussions about plateauing in this thread, and what does it take to break through certain plateaus. I like the way Filter has organized the themes based on the leagues. The benchmark approach is a great way of setting goals based on in-game time. I like this approach a lot better then build orders personally. Unfortunately because Filter emphasizes the benchmarks, that is basically all that people seem to retain and debate. (.. that and the "No Micro") I have been documenting his tips, progressions, and extras in a overview and summary to help me retain those points as well as the benchmarks. I was watching the scouting series and man that was a lot of information inside that video, but there is no way I will retain that through a single sitting. I have to break it down and simplify it myself in my practice games to retain it. There is a theory that it takes ten thousand hours to truly become a master of something. I am sure Filters 30 minute videos take a lot longer to make then 30 minutes. So I like to think it takes about 8 to 20 hours of practice per video to develop tacit knowledge. Assuming you have to play a large number of games and then replay them and identify the mistakes and correct them. In the end I think Filters success has been to help a lot of people save time initially and gain confidence laddering through simplifying the early game by practicing safe strategies, and then sharing how he worked through certain plateaus. And like a champ has been responding to his fans and critics with objective and rational data points to justify metagame concepts pretty well. If you keep that time theory in mind with the goal of developing tacit knowledge it might counter the claim that "Filter causes child abuse". Unless you meant that you are practicing SC2 against your children when frustrated after bad night of laddering | ||
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zoglug
United Kingdom56 Posts
On June 09 2012 07:10 Allenansgar wrote: "Filter causes child abuse". Unless you meant that you are practicing SC2 against your children when frustrated after bad night of laddering Ill post a more constructive postlater when sober......i took it as i screa at the kids that cheese me! Grrr! ha ha ha!!! Ive got to admit, ive not laughed so much in a long time at thast comment!!! | ||
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Frolossus
United States4779 Posts
it was kind of like once you hit the bench marks consistently then you realize that you have extra time/money on your hands to expand quickly or micro your units a little bit instead of idling over your bases all day waiting to hit those injects from the moment the last one went off also i would appreciate it if you could cover a little more on ZvZ in your videos because i feel completely lost in that mu | ||
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beat farm
United States478 Posts
questions 1.im a complete noob how does the game switch you from bronze to silver league. do i have to win x number of games as number 1 ranked get to x amount of points or something, or something else. 2.how consistant should i get on hitting the bronze benchmarks before i should start going for the silver benchmarks. iv started hitting the bronze benchmarks a few times but normally il end up with mid to high 40s at 10, and if i get harassed with a probe or something it scews me up entirely. | ||
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MaryJoana
Germany156 Posts
On June 10 2012 05:16 beat farm wrote: following the terran guide, and im now number 1 ranked in my bronze pool, which is sweet. thanks filter questions 1.im a complete noob how does the game switch you from bronze to silver league. do i have to win x number of games as number 1 ranked get to x amount of points or something, or something else. 2.how consistant should i get on hitting the bronze benchmarks before i should start going for the silver benchmarks. iv started hitting the bronze benchmarks a few times but normally il end up with mid to high 40s at 10, and if i get harassed with a probe or something it scews me up entirely. Transitioning from Bronze to Silver there is still some wiggling room when it comes to hitting the benchmarks, but at Gold and above you really need to have those 50-52 SCVs at 10, or otherwise your economy won't support all the macro you are doing at the timings you are trying to hit. Watch your replays and try to find reoccuring times when you miss out on an SCV or a supply depot, and try to focus on those specific ones you keep missing. | ||
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TheAmpersand
United States12 Posts
On June 07 2012 16:21 TheExodus wrote: Well the first "few" times I tried against very easy AI I ended up with 40 probes and 75 supply, while now I hit them consistently in every game on the ladder. It just takes practice I have a win ratio of 75% (95% in PvT) since I started working on it, but still stuck in bronze... My MMR must have been REALLY low. I also play Protoss, and was wondering you do in PvP. 1Gate FE is super super risky, because 4-gate. What unit mix do you get? Also, have you looked at the following build? It's a 2 gate FE that gets a 5:30 nexus and relies on a force of mostly stalkers to hold off 4-gate, and seems like a great candidate for a build to use for all matchups. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=341176 | ||
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Ahht
Germany10 Posts
silver league Zerg here. I watched your Zerg videos, practiced a few games vs KI, tried to hit the benchmarks without pressure. Jumped right in to ladder, played 9 games and only lost the last one. I'm still in silver, but the last 5 games I got platnum opponents. Except for 2 games, it wasn't even close! Thank you so much for your great Work!! | ||
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