I noted that the stalker and warpgate timings in the build posted were quite delayed, and developed a variation which we are now in the process of testing. The conversation was beginning to take over that thread, so I am starting a new one to keep things clear.
The objective of this build is to revolutionize PvP by making a fast expand that is viable against all standard play.
I have constructed two variations: 1. A 2 gate FE that gets a 5:30 nexus and relies on a force of 1 zealot, 5 stalkers to defend in the early game 2. A defensive 4 gate variation that can react to and defend against all ins.
Between these two variations, a protoss can expect to safely gain an economic edge against any standard PvP build. They are both based on common protoss timings and should be intuitive for any experienced ‘Toss to execute.
2 Gate Fast Expand:
This opening is based on a normal 2 gate 1 zealot 5 stalker rush, with a twist - instead of teching off the 2 gates, you will expand.
This build gets 1 zealot 5 stalker and warpgate by 6:00, while safely dropping a 5:30 Nexus. (!)
After expanding, I almost always get an immediate Robo, followed by 2 more gateways (4 total).
This will allow you to get a quick observer to defend dts and reinforce with immortal/zealot against a 1 base push. You will have a massive economic lead at this point, and can easily tech to colossus, blink, or templar.
9 pylon 10 probe* 12 probe* 13 gateway 14 assimilator > transfer 3 15 probe* 16 pylon 17 cybernetics core 18 zealot 20 probe 21 gateway 22 warpgate**** 22 stalker 25 pylon 26 stalker [2] 30 gateway 31 pylon 32 nexus 32 transform to warpgate [3] 32 zealot 34 stalker [2] - Poke with 2 zealot, 5 stalker. - Pull back and get robo, or warp in 3 more units to continue attack
4 gate Variation
There was some concern that you couldn’t hold an aggressive 4 gate with this build without the early 2nd zealot that sase gets.
From the Sase thread:
You're not claiming that you can get 1z, 5st, 4 gates and warp done by 6' all together, do you ? ...
If you have a replay where you did hold an agressive 4 gate despite missing a pylon, please post it, cause I'd be curious to see what magic you use to make it work
Actually, you can!
As it turns out, the “standard” 1 stalker 1 zealot 4 gate is a very bad build. Ever since the warpgate nerf, it has been inefficient-- you can easily get more than 2 units out of your gateway(s) and still get 4 gates out before warpgate finishes.
This means that the ideal attacking force at ~6:00 is much larger than the 6 units fielded by a 4 gate.
This build is identical to the FE up to 30 food, at which point you should have scouted the all in and can react by placing 2 additional gateways while continuing stalker production.
You should get 1 zealot, 5 stalkers, 4 gates, and warpgate by 6:00. With this force you can utterly crush a standard 4 gate or aggressive 3 gate and advance into the mid game with complete map control.
The reason this is so exciting is that it shows the 4 gate is not the most effective 6:00 attack. What’s more, because the ideal attack includes mostly units built from gateways - not warped in - travel time is reintroduced into the equation. The 4 gate destroyed the pvp metagame because you could have a large army warped in *at your opponent’s base*, which made investing in an expansion a losing scenario.
The ability to defend a 4 gate this way opens up the possibility to expand and resets the PvP metagame.
FXOz Defensive 2 Gate FE Variation Thanks to Monk for the link to this vod!
Oz forgoes the 6:00 stalker/zealot aggression for a more defensive sentry expand. The main differences are: 3 stalker rush, no zealot quick 2nd gas 4 sentries instead of stalkers. 6:00 robo.
This style is more passive, relying on force fields to hold any early aggression, but allows for quicker tech. I believe it is superior on maps like Shakuras where you have a tight ramp at the natural and forcefields are more effective. However, on a map with an open natural, I believe getting more zealot/stalker is desirable.
This build does not do a standard gateway scout. You shouldn't need to do a full scout of your opponents base to be safe. I normally do the following scouting:
13 gate- check for proxies and cannon cheese at natural. a quick run around near your base can confirm this, then you can come back to mine. If he has proxied farther away than your natural, you don’t have to worry. You will have 2 gates up in short order, and with his travel time you should be able to hold.
First zealot - chase away scouting probe, check for proxy pylons at 3rd or other likely proxy locations, and move to watch tower.
First stalker + zealot - watchtower, then move toward his base, continuing to hunt for probes/proxy pylons. You should be able to determine at this point if he is moving out for a 4 gate or other all in. If he is pushing aggressively before 5:00, switch to the 4 gate build.
If he is not moving out, continue with your expansion, and head to his natural with your 1 zealot and 3 stalkers. Try to get a unit count by dancing around at his ramp. Treat this like pvt -- you can judge a LOT from what units he has. Low stalker/sentry count? Expect DT or Stargate.
Mini-push 3 zealot 5 stalkers - When your final stalkers pop and warp gate finishes, you can do a small poke at his ramp. The objective is not to kill him, but rather force sentries and keep him feeling defensive while the nexus goes up. I will usually just camp out at his natural for a bit and see if he pushes down with mostly zealots, stalkers, or immortals. You should be able to tell if he is saving gas or did a normal robo build from the unit comp.
Once he has revealed his tech and wasted some force fields, you can calmly head back to defend your natural as it completes. You have an enormous economic advantage and enough units to hold his push.
Continue into the midgame with colossus, blink, or templar tech and crush him!
Replays/VODs
Please post replays as you get them! I am especially interested in games from Huk and Oz if anyone can find a VoD. I am testing as fast as I can, and will continue to post good games as I get them, but we need some high level replays!
I have played a number of games vs 4 gates and 3 gate robo, with great success. Most players are lost as to what to do - they are economically behind and rarely have a big enough army to break me.
Compilation video of 4 games vs DT fast expand. This was early on in testing, and my play was not very good, but shows the basic philosophy.
First game is the longest and pretty bad, but the others show nicely how you gain an economic advantage. These were just pick up games, so the level of play isn’t very high. Sorry also for poor video quality and sound balance.
Discussion Questions/Potential Challenges:
Possible counters: - 3 stalker rush > aggressive 3 gate. Unsure if you can safely expand in this case. May need to delay expo and do a 3 gate or robo variation. Requires more testing.
- 8 gate or 10 gate warpgate cheese. Modern Korean 4 gates that get warpgate by 5:00 to 5:20 with 3+ in base proxy pylons may reintroduce the problem this build solves. It is possible to defend, but we will need extensive testing from high level players to be sure. The good news is that this is a very risky all-in play that requires intense micro, and not likely to become standard.
- Delayed 4 gate. If your opponent knows your build, he could build units from 2-3 gateways and delay his 4 gate push until around 6:30, and hit before your tech is done, but after you've built your nexus. This build is not done now, but could potentially cause a problem down the line.
- 1 base 2 colossus push. I believe it can hold, will provide replays when possible.
- Phoenix + 4 gate. Possible threat, as phoenix are excellent vs immortals and sentries, which are our main line of defense.
Further questions: - Is colossus, blink, or Archon transition better? What timing attacks are possible with this opening?
- In what situations should we be aggressive with initial 5 stalkers? When should we use the 4 gate variation to punish greedy play? Some players may try to 1 gate expand when they see this build, so the 4 gate could be useful for punishing greedy FEs.
- Could this build be viable PvT?
Thanks for reading, and I welcome your input! Please post feedback and replays, and I will highlight them here.
I prefer HuK's version of the 2gate where he builds the 2nd gate on 19 (3:10) and skips the zealot to build a stalker and move out to deny proxy's/scout. Then after he starts the 3rd/4th stalker, he starts a 3rd gate and moves out with a probe (28 supply 3rd gateway). This gives him the option to put on a lot of pressure early with 3 gateways, or to start a robo by 6:00.
Here's an example of both players opening 2gate (MC does the 4gate version, HuK opens 3gate then transitions into robo)
After just reading your post, it seems like a very good build. Even though I don't play Protoss, I would love to see more macro PvP out of this. I'm also very curious to see if there are any effective counters to this. Hopefully not!
On May 31 2012 05:53 TangSC wrote: I prefer HuK's version of the 2gate where he builds the 2nd gate on 19 (3:10) and skips the zealot to build a stalker and move out to deny proxy's/scout. Then after he starts the 3rd/4th stalker, he starts a 3rd gate and moves out with a probe (28 supply 3rd gateway). This gives him the option to put on a lot of pressure early with 3 gateways, or to start a robo by 6:00.
Sweet video, I'll definitely look into this as well. I'm nervous about a no zealot opening as 4 gates get trickier, but that's exactly Huk's style - lots of stalkers, aggressive econ =D
On May 31 2012 05:55 Arcus wrote: After just reading your post, it seems like a very good build. Even though I don't play Protoss, I would love to see more macro PvP out of this. I'm also very curious to see if there are any effective counters to this. Hopefully not!
Well the problem with all these "relative fast expansions" in pvp out of 2 gates or 2 gate robo are the vulnerability to archon zealot all ins (if you don't scout them obviously, you can hold them with sim city) or 1 base colossi.
In my 2 gate expansion i do also have some trouble with 1 base phoenix all ins because you heavily need sentrys to hold of the ramp against any kind of aggression.
I don't think it's worth discussing whether or not this is viable in PvT, 1gate FE outshines it in almost every category except early pressure. The 2nd gate will be scouted 99.9% of the time and you have no way of denying it, as long as he reacts properly he won't take any damage.
The 5:30 nexus is just too late compared to a gassless FE, and you aren't guaranteed damage.
Well the problem with all these "relative fast expansions" in pvp out of 2 gates or 2 gate robo are the vulnerability to archon zealot all ins (if you don't scout them obviously, you can hold them with sim city) or 1 base colossi.
I played several games against dt expand into archon zealot all in. My control was miserable because I'm new to the build, and like you said they are very hard to deal with without sim city. However, from what I've seen, this expo goes up so much earlier than people expect, you can really have a much larger force and if you get good positioning you will hold.
On May 31 2012 06:15 tuestresfat wrote: I don't think it's worth discussing whether or not this is viable in PvT, 1gate FE outshines it in almost every category except early pressure. The 2nd gate will be scouted 99.9% of the time and you have no way of denying it, as long as he reacts properly he won't take any damage.
The 5:30 nexus is just too late compared to a gassless FE, and you aren't guaranteed damage.
edit: typo.
I think you are right. It would really only force an extra bunker or two. 1 gate FE is a good build.
To repeat what I said in my PM, I think at the moment there are two weaknesses to this build: a phoenix timing push with 4 gates, and a 1 gate robo into 4 gates with 2 immortals.
The replay you posted with the 3 gate robo was poorly executed by your opponent, he reactively pushed when he scouted your expo with his obs, he waited too long to drop a pylon for reinforcements, and stayed on 3 gates for the push. Even then the fight was very close. I suspect that somebody who's going for an immortal timing push before 8'30 ( or that scouts your early expo with a probe while your units are out of pos ) would have rolled over your build.
I'm working on variations with 3 gates and 4 gates, cutting the 4th and 5th stalkers if there's no incoming 4 gate. The expo is still decently fast ( 5'30 to 6'00, 6'30 if you warp units to threaten ) but may be a bit safer against those timings. I'll test it on ladder and give some feedback later.
Great post, and I would love to see pvp move more towards macro, but we are imposing our desires on the game when the time isnt right. Can this really hold a 1 base, 2 colossus allin? I doubt it. A blink stalker all in? mmmm....
I personally love when my pvp opponents go for a quick nex like that. Just make something that can po, or blink over forcefields and you insta win.
On May 31 2012 07:43 Nyast wrote: To repeat what I said in my PM, I think at the moment there are two weaknesses to this build: a phoenix timing push with 4 gates, and a 1 gate robo into 4 gates with 2 immortals.
The replay you posted with the 3 gate robo was poorly executed by your opponent, he reactively pushed when he scouted your expo with his obs, he waited too long to drop a pylon for reinforcements, and stayed on 3 gates for the push. Even then the fight was very close. I suspect that somebody who's going for an immortal timing push before 8'30 ( or that scouts your early expo with a probe while your units are out of pos ) would have rolled over your build.
I'm working on variations with 3 gates and 4 gates, cutting the 4th and 5th stalkers if there's no incoming 4 gate. The expo is still decently fast ( 5'30 to 6'00, 6'30 if you warp units to threaten ) but may be a bit safer against those timings. I'll test it on ladder and give some feedback later.
Awesome Nyast, I'll look forward to your results.
I don't think my follow timings are nearly as crisp as they could be with this build yet, I am very sloppy and have no sense of specific timings or sim city yet. The more I play, though, the more I feel like there is huge potential here.
The 5:30 nexus is critical, as it gets up and starts contributing to your income in time to make funding 4 gates + immortals viable. Once we are talking about 2 immortal timings, travel time and reinforcement is a factor again, and I feel like the defender's advantage makes this viable.
Honestly, Phoenix is one of the few things I've not faced that could be quite effective. I normally scoff at phoenix builds -- I experimented with them for a while and found that they weren't usually cost effective, and that a good opponent could often just walk over and kill a phoenix player.
However, they are specifically very useful vs immortals and sentries -- the two things that we are relying on for defense.
This is something we'll have to explore more. I will note it in the "potential problems" section of the guide.
There's already a standard 2 gate expansion build that a lot of pros use including Oz, Parting, and Huk. It goes something like 3 stalker rush into 2 sentry into nexus into robo into 2 more sentry into 3rd gate. It's defensive in nature, but holds off everything except phoenix all-ins, and 4 gate warp prism all-ins, which makes it pretty much the most solid expo build there is.
Also, I don't understand the point of the 4 gate build in an expansion thread. Are you suggesting it as a transition to hold off opposing 4 gates if you scout aggression coming? If so, that's not really solid at all, because it's impossible to always read a 4 gate coming. If you misread, you can fall dreadfully far behind with 4 gates and just 1 gas.
I just tryed this build for the first time against a 1200 point master toss, seems to be hard countered by super fast blink (he had it at ~7:10. I went expo > straight into robo and still could not get immortals in time + stalkers because of the lack of gas (since you have 1 gas for so long). Since he hit so early and started blink-microing against my gateway army, i slowly lost econ and couldn't produce enough immortals + gateway units and died: http://drop.sc/188951
I personally use quick blink builds a lot as well, and whenever my opponent does not have immortals by the time my initial stalkers start microing (when he has expo'd) he will die. With perfect blink micro vs no immortals + no ramp means complete inefficiency for the person without blink.
I liked the idea of the build and it works vs anything but said ultra-fast blink builds I think, but I don't think it's possible to hold a super-refined fast blink build with such a late 2nd gas.
On May 31 2012 09:58 NrGmonk wrote: There's already a standard 2 gate expansion build that a lot of pros use including Oz, Parting, and Huk. It goes something like 3 stalker rush into 2 sentry into nexus into robo into 2 more sentry into 3rd gate. It's defensive in nature, but holds off everything except phoenix all-ins, and 4 gate warp prism all-ins, which makes it pretty much the most solid expo build there is.
Also, I don't understand the point of the 4 gate build in an expansion thread. Are you suggesting it as a transition to hold off opposing 4 gates if you scout aggression coming? If so, that's not really solid at all, because it's impossible to always read a 4 gate coming. If you misread, you can fall dreadfully far behind with 4 gates and just 1 gas.
I would LOVE to see these games. I have heard about Oz's FE build but haven't seen any replays yet. If you know where I can find them please let me know! I am a bit nervous about getting 4 sentries early, as they will be worthless in a head on fight at an open natural, or vs blink. That much gas must slow down other tech as well...
You should be able to spot a 4 gate or aggressive 3 gate with your zealot/stalker poke. The 4 gate is only necessary if they are pushing you quite early with something cheesy. Otherwise you can expand and get your gates up after. There was some concern that you couldn't hold vs an early all in, this just shows how the build can adapt and do a normal warpgate push with extra units. It's true if they fake you out somehow you will be behind in tech severely, but you will at least have map control and can expand slightly later.
I just tryed this build for the first time against a 1200 point master toss, seems to be hard countered by super fast blink (he had it at ~7:10. I went expo > straight into robo and still could not get immortals in time + stalkers because of the lack of gas (since you have 1 gas for so long). Since he hit so early and started blink-microing against my gateway army, i slowly lost econ and couldn't produce enough immortals + gateway units and died: http://drop.sc/188951
I personally use quick blink builds a lot as well, and whenever my opponent does not have immortals by the time my initial stalkers start microing (when he has expo'd) he will die. With perfect blink micro vs no immortals + no ramp means complete inefficiency for the person without blink.
I liked the idea of the build and it works vs anything but said ultra-fast blink builds I think, but I don't think it's possible to hold a super-refined fast blink build with such a late 2nd gas.
Yeah blink is tough. I am still not positive if you have to go 3 gate or robo before expand in this case. A few things could have tipped the balance:
1. keep checking for nearby proxy pylons, he managed to get one up quite close to your base. 2. I always go 2 additional gates immediately after robo. your 3rd was delayed and you didn't get a 4th. these warpins might have helped. 3. you ended up with some extra supply, which is probably what delayed your gateways/warpins. don't forget to account for the nexus supply, as every mineral counts. If you are hitting all your warp ins you should be able to stay equal with him in unit count until an immortal pops out. 4. get an observer. the build time is worth it to snipe their high ground vision.
I'll keep testing and hopefully we can determine how to hold this.
I think ultimately I need to just get better at reading the opponent and pushing aggressively at the first warpin. A greedy 1 gate twilight build like this should die to a 7 stalker push, but you have to know you can get away with it...
Thanks for trying it out!
EDIT- after watching your replay again and doing some more games tonight, I am trying out a slight variation to the build. Instead of warping in 2 more stalkers at 6:00 I warp zealots, and get the robo immediately. This lets you tech MUCH faster, and I think the 3 zealot 5 stalker army is more robust for direct confrontation anyway.
On May 31 2012 13:27 quillian wrote: EDIT- after watching your replay again and doing some more games tonight, I am trying out a slight variation to the build. Instead of warping in 2 more stalkers at 6:00 I warp zealots, and get the robo immediately. This lets you tech MUCH faster, and I think the 3 zealot 5 stalker army is more robust for direct confrontation anyway.
Yeah, I arrived to the same conclusion in my variants.
You may also consider swapping the order of expo vs robo. Ie. put down the robo earlier and delay the expo by 30s or so ? That should still be a decently fast expo ( 6' ? ) but the early robo is safer.
Notes: I scout at 13, which allows me to see if my opponent is 4 gating or not. If I see a tech build, this allows me to spend 5 chronos into probes (!). I stay on 1 gas for very long. In the build my 4th gate is a bit too late, it should be dropped earlier to be synced to the 8:00 timing. If opponent pushes, you have to cut probes production and chrono gates instead. May also have to pull probes for defense.
This gets you around 90 pop at the 10' mark, which is quite nice.
Well, since this is posted, I will say that I'm working on a 2gate PvP FE that has a nexus, forge, 2 stalkers, 2 zealots, 3 cannons, 2 gates, and 23 probes when a 4gate hits. Unfortunately, the build I am working on can only be realistically done on a map that has a ramp to the natural. More to come...
Notes: I scout at 13, which allows me to see if my opponent is 4 gating or not. If I see a tech build, this allows me to spend 5 chronos into probes (!). I stay on 1 gas for very long. In the build my 4th gate is a bit too late, it should be dropped earlier to be synced to the 8:00 timing. If opponent pushes, you have to cut probes production and chrono gates instead. May also have to pull probes for defense.
This gets you around 90 pop at the 10' mark, which is quite nice.
Cool thanks for posting this Nyast. I think we are working on very similar lines. I am also doing a ~6:10 warpin and poking the front with 3 z 5 st.
I don't know if this is a perfect example of your 3 gate variation or not, but the timing seems a little slack. the stalkers are all delayed slightly, the 3rd gate doesn't get much use early on, as you can't afford the warpins while building immortal anyway, and the second gas is very late, which delays any tech. You also need to go observer first in case of DT unless you are sure of his build.
- proxy pylon on 31 - chrono last 2 stalkers - robo before first warpin, right at 100 gas - 2 zealots with first warpin. should happen right as stalkers arrive - push with 3 zealot 5 stalker at 6:30 - robo does obs - immortal - immortal - colossus tech at 9:00
The basic difference between our two builds is that I forgo the 3rd gate for the 5th stalker, chronoing 4th and 5th. This lets me get quicker nexus and gas, which I use to get fast colossus tech. Comparing at 10:00, my probes are slightly ahead, and my army is slightly smaller, but I am about to start colossus.
I am still adding 2 gates, albeit slightly later. These can be built earlier if your poke reveals they are being aggressive, instead of adding gas at natural and getting colossus.
One further note: robo and blink pushes have not given me much trouble with this build, but I had one game where I was utterly destroyed by phoenix immortal, in the style of this video: + Show Spoiler +
Phoenix alone are manageable (especially if they waste their energy on probes...) but with smart lifts and immortals to dps the stalkers, I was overwhelmed. I will need to review to make sure this isn't just a build order loss.
Looking forward to playing a bunch this weekend, I'll hopefully have some good replays.
On May 31 2012 09:58 NrGmonk wrote: There's already a standard 2 gate expansion build that a lot of pros use including Oz, Parting, and Huk. It goes something like 3 stalker rush into 2 sentry into nexus into robo into 2 more sentry into 3rd gate. It's defensive in nature, but holds off everything except phoenix all-ins, and 4 gate warp prism all-ins, which makes it pretty much the most solid expo build there is.
Also, I don't understand the point of the 4 gate build in an expansion thread. Are you suggesting it as a transition to hold off opposing 4 gates if you scout aggression coming? If so, that's not really solid at all, because it's impossible to always read a 4 gate coming. If you misread, you can fall dreadfully far behind with 4 gates and just 1 gas.
Is there a guide or vod/replay for this build? I've love to have it. My PvP is still stuck in the immortal speed prism era ;D
On June 01 2012 07:43 tehemperorer wrote: Well, since this is posted, I will say that I'm working on a 2gate PvP FE that has a nexus, forge, 2 stalkers, 2 zealots, 3 cannons, 2 gates, and 23 probes when a 4gate hits. Unfortunately, the build I am working on can only be realistically done on a map that has a ramp to the natural. More to come...
If I scout an early cannon/forge, my standard reaction is usually to go 4 gate warp prism. It'll hit between 6' and 6'30 ( around 6' if proxied ) with 8 units. It sounds like it'd be an auto win versus your build.
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