I noted that the stalker and warpgate timings in the build posted were quite delayed, and developed a variation which we are now in the process of testing. The conversation was beginning to take over that thread, so I am starting a new one to keep things clear.
The objective of this build is to revolutionize PvP by making a fast expand that is viable against all standard play.
I have constructed two variations: 1. A 2 gate FE that gets a 5:30 nexus and relies on a force of 1 zealot, 5 stalkers to defend in the early game 2. A defensive 4 gate variation that can react to and defend against all ins.
Between these two variations, a protoss can expect to safely gain an economic edge against any standard PvP build. They are both based on common protoss timings and should be intuitive for any experienced ‘Toss to execute.
2 Gate Fast Expand:
This opening is based on a normal 2 gate 1 zealot 5 stalker rush, with a twist - instead of teching off the 2 gates, you will expand.
This build gets 1 zealot 5 stalker and warpgate by 6:00, while safely dropping a 5:30 Nexus. (!)
After expanding, I almost always get an immediate Robo, followed by 2 more gateways (4 total).
This will allow you to get a quick observer to defend dts and reinforce with immortal/zealot against a 1 base push. You will have a massive economic lead at this point, and can easily tech to colossus, blink, or templar.
9 pylon 10 probe* 12 probe* 13 gateway 14 assimilator > transfer 3 15 probe* 16 pylon 17 cybernetics core 18 zealot 20 probe 21 gateway 22 warpgate**** 22 stalker 25 pylon 26 stalker [2] 30 gateway 31 pylon 32 nexus 32 transform to warpgate [3] 32 zealot 34 stalker [2] - Poke with 2 zealot, 5 stalker. - Pull back and get robo, or warp in 3 more units to continue attack
4 gate Variation
There was some concern that you couldn’t hold an aggressive 4 gate with this build without the early 2nd zealot that sase gets.
From the Sase thread:
You're not claiming that you can get 1z, 5st, 4 gates and warp done by 6' all together, do you ? ...
If you have a replay where you did hold an agressive 4 gate despite missing a pylon, please post it, cause I'd be curious to see what magic you use to make it work
Actually, you can!
As it turns out, the “standard” 1 stalker 1 zealot 4 gate is a very bad build. Ever since the warpgate nerf, it has been inefficient-- you can easily get more than 2 units out of your gateway(s) and still get 4 gates out before warpgate finishes.
This means that the ideal attacking force at ~6:00 is much larger than the 6 units fielded by a 4 gate.
This build is identical to the FE up to 30 food, at which point you should have scouted the all in and can react by placing 2 additional gateways while continuing stalker production.
You should get 1 zealot, 5 stalkers, 4 gates, and warpgate by 6:00. With this force you can utterly crush a standard 4 gate or aggressive 3 gate and advance into the mid game with complete map control.
The reason this is so exciting is that it shows the 4 gate is not the most effective 6:00 attack. What’s more, because the ideal attack includes mostly units built from gateways - not warped in - travel time is reintroduced into the equation. The 4 gate destroyed the pvp metagame because you could have a large army warped in *at your opponent’s base*, which made investing in an expansion a losing scenario.
The ability to defend a 4 gate this way opens up the possibility to expand and resets the PvP metagame.
FXOz Defensive 2 Gate FE Variation Thanks to Monk for the link to this vod!
Oz forgoes the 6:00 stalker/zealot aggression for a more defensive sentry expand. The main differences are: 3 stalker rush, no zealot quick 2nd gas 4 sentries instead of stalkers. 6:00 robo.
This style is more passive, relying on force fields to hold any early aggression, but allows for quicker tech. I believe it is superior on maps like Shakuras where you have a tight ramp at the natural and forcefields are more effective. However, on a map with an open natural, I believe getting more zealot/stalker is desirable.
This build does not do a standard gateway scout. You shouldn't need to do a full scout of your opponents base to be safe. I normally do the following scouting:
13 gate- check for proxies and cannon cheese at natural. a quick run around near your base can confirm this, then you can come back to mine. If he has proxied farther away than your natural, you don’t have to worry. You will have 2 gates up in short order, and with his travel time you should be able to hold.
First zealot - chase away scouting probe, check for proxy pylons at 3rd or other likely proxy locations, and move to watch tower.
First stalker + zealot - watchtower, then move toward his base, continuing to hunt for probes/proxy pylons. You should be able to determine at this point if he is moving out for a 4 gate or other all in. If he is pushing aggressively before 5:00, switch to the 4 gate build.
If he is not moving out, continue with your expansion, and head to his natural with your 1 zealot and 3 stalkers. Try to get a unit count by dancing around at his ramp. Treat this like pvt -- you can judge a LOT from what units he has. Low stalker/sentry count? Expect DT or Stargate.
Mini-push 3 zealot 5 stalkers - When your final stalkers pop and warp gate finishes, you can do a small poke at his ramp. The objective is not to kill him, but rather force sentries and keep him feeling defensive while the nexus goes up. I will usually just camp out at his natural for a bit and see if he pushes down with mostly zealots, stalkers, or immortals. You should be able to tell if he is saving gas or did a normal robo build from the unit comp.
Once he has revealed his tech and wasted some force fields, you can calmly head back to defend your natural as it completes. You have an enormous economic advantage and enough units to hold his push.
Continue into the midgame with colossus, blink, or templar tech and crush him!
Replays/VODs
Please post replays as you get them! I am especially interested in games from Huk and Oz if anyone can find a VoD. I am testing as fast as I can, and will continue to post good games as I get them, but we need some high level replays!
I have played a number of games vs 4 gates and 3 gate robo, with great success. Most players are lost as to what to do - they are economically behind and rarely have a big enough army to break me.
Compilation video of 4 games vs DT fast expand. This was early on in testing, and my play was not very good, but shows the basic philosophy.
First game is the longest and pretty bad, but the others show nicely how you gain an economic advantage. These were just pick up games, so the level of play isn’t very high. Sorry also for poor video quality and sound balance.
Discussion Questions/Potential Challenges:
Possible counters: - 3 stalker rush > aggressive 3 gate. Unsure if you can safely expand in this case. May need to delay expo and do a 3 gate or robo variation. Requires more testing.
- 8 gate or 10 gate warpgate cheese. Modern Korean 4 gates that get warpgate by 5:00 to 5:20 with 3+ in base proxy pylons may reintroduce the problem this build solves. It is possible to defend, but we will need extensive testing from high level players to be sure. The good news is that this is a very risky all-in play that requires intense micro, and not likely to become standard.
- Delayed 4 gate. If your opponent knows your build, he could build units from 2-3 gateways and delay his 4 gate push until around 6:30, and hit before your tech is done, but after you've built your nexus. This build is not done now, but could potentially cause a problem down the line.
- 1 base 2 colossus push. I believe it can hold, will provide replays when possible.
- Phoenix + 4 gate. Possible threat, as phoenix are excellent vs immortals and sentries, which are our main line of defense.
Further questions: - Is colossus, blink, or Archon transition better? What timing attacks are possible with this opening?
- In what situations should we be aggressive with initial 5 stalkers? When should we use the 4 gate variation to punish greedy play? Some players may try to 1 gate expand when they see this build, so the 4 gate could be useful for punishing greedy FEs.
- Could this build be viable PvT?
Thanks for reading, and I welcome your input! Please post feedback and replays, and I will highlight them here.
I prefer HuK's version of the 2gate where he builds the 2nd gate on 19 (3:10) and skips the zealot to build a stalker and move out to deny proxy's/scout. Then after he starts the 3rd/4th stalker, he starts a 3rd gate and moves out with a probe (28 supply 3rd gateway). This gives him the option to put on a lot of pressure early with 3 gateways, or to start a robo by 6:00.
Here's an example of both players opening 2gate (MC does the 4gate version, HuK opens 3gate then transitions into robo)
After just reading your post, it seems like a very good build. Even though I don't play Protoss, I would love to see more macro PvP out of this. I'm also very curious to see if there are any effective counters to this. Hopefully not!
On May 31 2012 05:53 TangSC wrote: I prefer HuK's version of the 2gate where he builds the 2nd gate on 19 (3:10) and skips the zealot to build a stalker and move out to deny proxy's/scout. Then after he starts the 3rd/4th stalker, he starts a 3rd gate and moves out with a probe (28 supply 3rd gateway). This gives him the option to put on a lot of pressure early with 3 gateways, or to start a robo by 6:00.
Sweet video, I'll definitely look into this as well. I'm nervous about a no zealot opening as 4 gates get trickier, but that's exactly Huk's style - lots of stalkers, aggressive econ =D
On May 31 2012 05:55 Arcus wrote: After just reading your post, it seems like a very good build. Even though I don't play Protoss, I would love to see more macro PvP out of this. I'm also very curious to see if there are any effective counters to this. Hopefully not!
Well the problem with all these "relative fast expansions" in pvp out of 2 gates or 2 gate robo are the vulnerability to archon zealot all ins (if you don't scout them obviously, you can hold them with sim city) or 1 base colossi.
In my 2 gate expansion i do also have some trouble with 1 base phoenix all ins because you heavily need sentrys to hold of the ramp against any kind of aggression.
I don't think it's worth discussing whether or not this is viable in PvT, 1gate FE outshines it in almost every category except early pressure. The 2nd gate will be scouted 99.9% of the time and you have no way of denying it, as long as he reacts properly he won't take any damage.
The 5:30 nexus is just too late compared to a gassless FE, and you aren't guaranteed damage.
Well the problem with all these "relative fast expansions" in pvp out of 2 gates or 2 gate robo are the vulnerability to archon zealot all ins (if you don't scout them obviously, you can hold them with sim city) or 1 base colossi.
I played several games against dt expand into archon zealot all in. My control was miserable because I'm new to the build, and like you said they are very hard to deal with without sim city. However, from what I've seen, this expo goes up so much earlier than people expect, you can really have a much larger force and if you get good positioning you will hold.
On May 31 2012 06:15 tuestresfat wrote: I don't think it's worth discussing whether or not this is viable in PvT, 1gate FE outshines it in almost every category except early pressure. The 2nd gate will be scouted 99.9% of the time and you have no way of denying it, as long as he reacts properly he won't take any damage.
The 5:30 nexus is just too late compared to a gassless FE, and you aren't guaranteed damage.
edit: typo.
I think you are right. It would really only force an extra bunker or two. 1 gate FE is a good build.
To repeat what I said in my PM, I think at the moment there are two weaknesses to this build: a phoenix timing push with 4 gates, and a 1 gate robo into 4 gates with 2 immortals.
The replay you posted with the 3 gate robo was poorly executed by your opponent, he reactively pushed when he scouted your expo with his obs, he waited too long to drop a pylon for reinforcements, and stayed on 3 gates for the push. Even then the fight was very close. I suspect that somebody who's going for an immortal timing push before 8'30 ( or that scouts your early expo with a probe while your units are out of pos ) would have rolled over your build.
I'm working on variations with 3 gates and 4 gates, cutting the 4th and 5th stalkers if there's no incoming 4 gate. The expo is still decently fast ( 5'30 to 6'00, 6'30 if you warp units to threaten ) but may be a bit safer against those timings. I'll test it on ladder and give some feedback later.
Great post, and I would love to see pvp move more towards macro, but we are imposing our desires on the game when the time isnt right. Can this really hold a 1 base, 2 colossus allin? I doubt it. A blink stalker all in? mmmm....
I personally love when my pvp opponents go for a quick nex like that. Just make something that can po, or blink over forcefields and you insta win.
On May 31 2012 07:43 Nyast wrote: To repeat what I said in my PM, I think at the moment there are two weaknesses to this build: a phoenix timing push with 4 gates, and a 1 gate robo into 4 gates with 2 immortals.
The replay you posted with the 3 gate robo was poorly executed by your opponent, he reactively pushed when he scouted your expo with his obs, he waited too long to drop a pylon for reinforcements, and stayed on 3 gates for the push. Even then the fight was very close. I suspect that somebody who's going for an immortal timing push before 8'30 ( or that scouts your early expo with a probe while your units are out of pos ) would have rolled over your build.
I'm working on variations with 3 gates and 4 gates, cutting the 4th and 5th stalkers if there's no incoming 4 gate. The expo is still decently fast ( 5'30 to 6'00, 6'30 if you warp units to threaten ) but may be a bit safer against those timings. I'll test it on ladder and give some feedback later.
Awesome Nyast, I'll look forward to your results.
I don't think my follow timings are nearly as crisp as they could be with this build yet, I am very sloppy and have no sense of specific timings or sim city yet. The more I play, though, the more I feel like there is huge potential here.
The 5:30 nexus is critical, as it gets up and starts contributing to your income in time to make funding 4 gates + immortals viable. Once we are talking about 2 immortal timings, travel time and reinforcement is a factor again, and I feel like the defender's advantage makes this viable.
Honestly, Phoenix is one of the few things I've not faced that could be quite effective. I normally scoff at phoenix builds -- I experimented with them for a while and found that they weren't usually cost effective, and that a good opponent could often just walk over and kill a phoenix player.
However, they are specifically very useful vs immortals and sentries -- the two things that we are relying on for defense.
This is something we'll have to explore more. I will note it in the "potential problems" section of the guide.
There's already a standard 2 gate expansion build that a lot of pros use including Oz, Parting, and Huk. It goes something like 3 stalker rush into 2 sentry into nexus into robo into 2 more sentry into 3rd gate. It's defensive in nature, but holds off everything except phoenix all-ins, and 4 gate warp prism all-ins, which makes it pretty much the most solid expo build there is.
Also, I don't understand the point of the 4 gate build in an expansion thread. Are you suggesting it as a transition to hold off opposing 4 gates if you scout aggression coming? If so, that's not really solid at all, because it's impossible to always read a 4 gate coming. If you misread, you can fall dreadfully far behind with 4 gates and just 1 gas.
I just tryed this build for the first time against a 1200 point master toss, seems to be hard countered by super fast blink (he had it at ~7:10. I went expo > straight into robo and still could not get immortals in time + stalkers because of the lack of gas (since you have 1 gas for so long). Since he hit so early and started blink-microing against my gateway army, i slowly lost econ and couldn't produce enough immortals + gateway units and died: http://drop.sc/188951
I personally use quick blink builds a lot as well, and whenever my opponent does not have immortals by the time my initial stalkers start microing (when he has expo'd) he will die. With perfect blink micro vs no immortals + no ramp means complete inefficiency for the person without blink.
I liked the idea of the build and it works vs anything but said ultra-fast blink builds I think, but I don't think it's possible to hold a super-refined fast blink build with such a late 2nd gas.
On May 31 2012 09:58 NrGmonk wrote: There's already a standard 2 gate expansion build that a lot of pros use including Oz, Parting, and Huk. It goes something like 3 stalker rush into 2 sentry into nexus into robo into 2 more sentry into 3rd gate. It's defensive in nature, but holds off everything except phoenix all-ins, and 4 gate warp prism all-ins, which makes it pretty much the most solid expo build there is.
Also, I don't understand the point of the 4 gate build in an expansion thread. Are you suggesting it as a transition to hold off opposing 4 gates if you scout aggression coming? If so, that's not really solid at all, because it's impossible to always read a 4 gate coming. If you misread, you can fall dreadfully far behind with 4 gates and just 1 gas.
I would LOVE to see these games. I have heard about Oz's FE build but haven't seen any replays yet. If you know where I can find them please let me know! I am a bit nervous about getting 4 sentries early, as they will be worthless in a head on fight at an open natural, or vs blink. That much gas must slow down other tech as well...
You should be able to spot a 4 gate or aggressive 3 gate with your zealot/stalker poke. The 4 gate is only necessary if they are pushing you quite early with something cheesy. Otherwise you can expand and get your gates up after. There was some concern that you couldn't hold vs an early all in, this just shows how the build can adapt and do a normal warpgate push with extra units. It's true if they fake you out somehow you will be behind in tech severely, but you will at least have map control and can expand slightly later.
I just tryed this build for the first time against a 1200 point master toss, seems to be hard countered by super fast blink (he had it at ~7:10. I went expo > straight into robo and still could not get immortals in time + stalkers because of the lack of gas (since you have 1 gas for so long). Since he hit so early and started blink-microing against my gateway army, i slowly lost econ and couldn't produce enough immortals + gateway units and died: http://drop.sc/188951
I personally use quick blink builds a lot as well, and whenever my opponent does not have immortals by the time my initial stalkers start microing (when he has expo'd) he will die. With perfect blink micro vs no immortals + no ramp means complete inefficiency for the person without blink.
I liked the idea of the build and it works vs anything but said ultra-fast blink builds I think, but I don't think it's possible to hold a super-refined fast blink build with such a late 2nd gas.
Yeah blink is tough. I am still not positive if you have to go 3 gate or robo before expand in this case. A few things could have tipped the balance:
1. keep checking for nearby proxy pylons, he managed to get one up quite close to your base. 2. I always go 2 additional gates immediately after robo. your 3rd was delayed and you didn't get a 4th. these warpins might have helped. 3. you ended up with some extra supply, which is probably what delayed your gateways/warpins. don't forget to account for the nexus supply, as every mineral counts. If you are hitting all your warp ins you should be able to stay equal with him in unit count until an immortal pops out. 4. get an observer. the build time is worth it to snipe their high ground vision.
I'll keep testing and hopefully we can determine how to hold this.
I think ultimately I need to just get better at reading the opponent and pushing aggressively at the first warpin. A greedy 1 gate twilight build like this should die to a 7 stalker push, but you have to know you can get away with it...
Thanks for trying it out!
EDIT- after watching your replay again and doing some more games tonight, I am trying out a slight variation to the build. Instead of warping in 2 more stalkers at 6:00 I warp zealots, and get the robo immediately. This lets you tech MUCH faster, and I think the 3 zealot 5 stalker army is more robust for direct confrontation anyway.
On May 31 2012 13:27 quillian wrote: EDIT- after watching your replay again and doing some more games tonight, I am trying out a slight variation to the build. Instead of warping in 2 more stalkers at 6:00 I warp zealots, and get the robo immediately. This lets you tech MUCH faster, and I think the 3 zealot 5 stalker army is more robust for direct confrontation anyway.
Yeah, I arrived to the same conclusion in my variants.
You may also consider swapping the order of expo vs robo. Ie. put down the robo earlier and delay the expo by 30s or so ? That should still be a decently fast expo ( 6' ? ) but the early robo is safer.
Notes: I scout at 13, which allows me to see if my opponent is 4 gating or not. If I see a tech build, this allows me to spend 5 chronos into probes (!). I stay on 1 gas for very long. In the build my 4th gate is a bit too late, it should be dropped earlier to be synced to the 8:00 timing. If opponent pushes, you have to cut probes production and chrono gates instead. May also have to pull probes for defense.
This gets you around 90 pop at the 10' mark, which is quite nice.
Well, since this is posted, I will say that I'm working on a 2gate PvP FE that has a nexus, forge, 2 stalkers, 2 zealots, 3 cannons, 2 gates, and 23 probes when a 4gate hits. Unfortunately, the build I am working on can only be realistically done on a map that has a ramp to the natural. More to come...
Notes: I scout at 13, which allows me to see if my opponent is 4 gating or not. If I see a tech build, this allows me to spend 5 chronos into probes (!). I stay on 1 gas for very long. In the build my 4th gate is a bit too late, it should be dropped earlier to be synced to the 8:00 timing. If opponent pushes, you have to cut probes production and chrono gates instead. May also have to pull probes for defense.
This gets you around 90 pop at the 10' mark, which is quite nice.
Cool thanks for posting this Nyast. I think we are working on very similar lines. I am also doing a ~6:10 warpin and poking the front with 3 z 5 st.
I don't know if this is a perfect example of your 3 gate variation or not, but the timing seems a little slack. the stalkers are all delayed slightly, the 3rd gate doesn't get much use early on, as you can't afford the warpins while building immortal anyway, and the second gas is very late, which delays any tech. You also need to go observer first in case of DT unless you are sure of his build.
- proxy pylon on 31 - chrono last 2 stalkers - robo before first warpin, right at 100 gas - 2 zealots with first warpin. should happen right as stalkers arrive - push with 3 zealot 5 stalker at 6:30 - robo does obs - immortal - immortal - colossus tech at 9:00
The basic difference between our two builds is that I forgo the 3rd gate for the 5th stalker, chronoing 4th and 5th. This lets me get quicker nexus and gas, which I use to get fast colossus tech. Comparing at 10:00, my probes are slightly ahead, and my army is slightly smaller, but I am about to start colossus.
I am still adding 2 gates, albeit slightly later. These can be built earlier if your poke reveals they are being aggressive, instead of adding gas at natural and getting colossus.
One further note: robo and blink pushes have not given me much trouble with this build, but I had one game where I was utterly destroyed by phoenix immortal, in the style of this video: + Show Spoiler +
Phoenix alone are manageable (especially if they waste their energy on probes...) but with smart lifts and immortals to dps the stalkers, I was overwhelmed. I will need to review to make sure this isn't just a build order loss.
Looking forward to playing a bunch this weekend, I'll hopefully have some good replays.
On May 31 2012 09:58 NrGmonk wrote: There's already a standard 2 gate expansion build that a lot of pros use including Oz, Parting, and Huk. It goes something like 3 stalker rush into 2 sentry into nexus into robo into 2 more sentry into 3rd gate. It's defensive in nature, but holds off everything except phoenix all-ins, and 4 gate warp prism all-ins, which makes it pretty much the most solid expo build there is.
Also, I don't understand the point of the 4 gate build in an expansion thread. Are you suggesting it as a transition to hold off opposing 4 gates if you scout aggression coming? If so, that's not really solid at all, because it's impossible to always read a 4 gate coming. If you misread, you can fall dreadfully far behind with 4 gates and just 1 gas.
Is there a guide or vod/replay for this build? I've love to have it. My PvP is still stuck in the immortal speed prism era ;D
On June 01 2012 07:43 tehemperorer wrote: Well, since this is posted, I will say that I'm working on a 2gate PvP FE that has a nexus, forge, 2 stalkers, 2 zealots, 3 cannons, 2 gates, and 23 probes when a 4gate hits. Unfortunately, the build I am working on can only be realistically done on a map that has a ramp to the natural. More to come...
If I scout an early cannon/forge, my standard reaction is usually to go 4 gate warp prism. It'll hit between 6' and 6'30 ( around 6' if proxied ) with 8 units. It sounds like it'd be an auto win versus your build.
On June 01 2012 15:10 quillian wrote: Cool thanks for posting this Nyast. I think we are working on very similar lines. I am also doing a ~6:10 warpin and poking the front with 3 z 5 st.
I don't know if this is a perfect example of your 3 gate variation or not, but the timing seems a little slack. the stalkers are all delayed slightly, the 3rd gate doesn't get much use early on, as you can't afford the warpins while building immortal anyway, and the second gas is very late, which delays any tech. You also need to go observer first in case of DT unless you are sure of his build.
A couple of remarks:
- I guess the 3rd gate could be slightly delayed. It must be ready when I do the warpin around 6'30 though. However the main interest of the 3rd gate is that it acts as a "safety net". If you spot a greedy build from him, you have the option to continue the warpins to attack him. If you see that he's gonna be immediately agressive, or if he has a pylon near your base and warps while you're out of pos, you can more easily damper damage. But under standard play, the 3rd gate is indeed kindda useless.
- I produce and chrono a 4th stalker, but the 5th stalker comes from the warpin. It feels quite weird, but this allows to make the robo before the warpin, which I think is critical.
- the build I posted is working under the assumption that the opponent scouts the expo ( either with an early obs or a unit ) and immediately reacts with a timing push. I think you'll agree that there isn't much to fear from 1-base all-ins past the 9-10' mark. What worries me are pushes around 8'. There isn't much to fear from pushes before 7' since if he's doing a tech build, he won't have more units than you anyway. Therefore 8' is the critical timing. If this build can survive any 8' timing push, it's solid. If not, it's useless.
- in consequence, the build I posted is done with the mentality "get as much early units as realitically possible". If the opponent expoes, or if you suspect DTs ( can easily be hinted by your 6'30 poke ), or if you suspect 1 base colossi, you can take the 2nd gas faster. I agree that your build including a faster robo bay sounds sexy, but honnestly it's useless for any timing push your opponent does. It's only worth it if he decides to play the macro game ( expo later than you ) which means that a delayed 2nd gas is not that critical. You can take the 2nd, 3rd and 4th gas all at once faster than him anyway.
--
Now some food for thought: what I'm going to say is valid for any of our variants, even your 2 gates:
- if at the 6:30 poke you see an immortal, I believe it's possible to hold any immortal timing push by doing the following: take a fast 2nd gas, make up to 4 gateways + warp sentries, park your army somewhere on the map, wait until he moves out. By the time he arrives in your natural, save all your probes and sacrifice the nat's nexus. FF your ramp, warp some more sentries, and meanwhile counter him in his main. You'll even have your 4 gates for reinforcements ( more sentries warpins ), an immortal out, and your whole army killing his main.
- if at the 6:30 poke you spot phoenixes ( or phoenixes scout/harass you before that timing ), cancel the robo and drop a total of 6 gates. They should be ready by the time he attacks. Cut probes around 30 and warp as many zealots/stalkers as you can. I'd advise to not take the 2nd gas in this case. Phoenixes cost 150/100, they're not cost effective to lift zealots/stalkers if that's all you have. The main idea is to flood him in quantity/reinforcements.
If his phoenixes harass your probes, he's using his energy for lifting them, which means he probably won't do a timing push but an expo ( or his push will be delayed ). In this case I'd consider chronoing probes, making a twilight and going for a blink timing push.
On June 01 2012 15:10 quillian wrote: Cool thanks for posting this Nyast. I think we are working on very similar lines. I am also doing a ~6:10 warpin and poking the front with 3 z 5 st.
I don't know if this is a perfect example of your 3 gate variation or not, but the timing seems a little slack. the stalkers are all delayed slightly, the 3rd gate doesn't get much use early on, as you can't afford the warpins while building immortal anyway, and the second gas is very late, which delays any tech. You also need to go observer first in case of DT unless you are sure of his build.
A couple of remarks:
- I guess the 3rd gate could be slightly delayed. It must be ready when I do the warpin around 6'30 though. However the main interest of the 3rd gate is that it acts as a "safety net". If you spot a greedy build from him, you have the option to continue the warpins to attack him. If you see that he's gonna be immediately agressive, or if he has a pylon near your base and warps while you're out of pos, you can more easily damper damage. But under standard play, the 3rd gate is indeed kindda useless.
I guess the question is "what is greedy play that a 3rd gate could punish?" You have a base up on him, I don't know many situations where you'd desperately need to kill him right then, and that 1 gate would make the difference.
- I produce and chrono a 4th stalker, but the 5th stalker comes from the warpin. It feels quite weird, but this allows to make the robo before the warpin, which I think is critical.
I've also started going robo before warpin, pretty much at the same time as you. Cutting the stalker is what allows you to get the 3rd gate -- they are basically interchangeable. In fact, you might be able to cut both stalkers, do 2 more chrono on warpgate, and add 2 more gates. Maybe I'll try that today....
- the build I posted is working under the assumption that the opponent scouts the expo ( either with an early obs or a unit ) and immediately reacts with a timing push. I think you'll agree that there isn't much to fear from 1-base all-ins past the 9-10' mark. What worries me are pushes around 8'. There isn't much to fear from pushes before 7' since if he's doing a tech build, he won't have more units than you anyway. Therefore 8' is the critical timing. If this build can survive any 8' timing push, it's solid. If not, it's useless.
Right, there are a variety of 6 to 8 minute 1 base all ins we have to hold, namely: - 4 gate (holds) - 3gate robo (holds) - blink (seems to hold, barely) - phoenix (might hold if we cut robo and get gates faster)
However, there are also a few attacks that hit slightly later, but with more punch, as you hint at:
- in consequence, the build I posted is done with the mentality "get as much early units as realitically possible". If the opponent expoes, or if you suspect DTs ( can easily be hinted by your 6'30 poke ), or if you suspect 1 base colossi, you can take the 2nd gas faster. I agree that your build including a faster robo bay sounds sexy, but honnestly it's useless for any timing push your opponent does. It's only worth it if he decides to play the macro game ( expo later than you ) which means that a delayed 2nd gas is not that critical. You can take the 2nd, 3rd and 4th gas all at once faster than him anyway.
- DT into chargelot archon @ 10:00. This is REALLY strong, and will probably kill you unless you get a colossus out. - 1 base 2 colossus timing @ 9:00 - 10:00. Also pretty tough, but possible to defend by chronoing immortals.
As this is what I've had trouble with, that is what my build was designed for. You need the robo immediately for a fast observer and colossus in this case, and you will be behind their tech already, so you need gas asap.
I think, basically, that we are saying the same thing from different perspectives: Your perspective is that the 8 minute timing is your default scenario, and you will adapt to the colossus or DT> I'm working from the assumption of a longer game, and "reacting" to the 8 minute aggression if I scout it.
We both have the same conclusion: if they are attacking now, get more gates, sooner. If they are going for archon or colossus push, get gas and fast tech. So I think we agree =D
--
Now some food for thought: what I'm going to say is valid for any of our variants, even your 2 gates:
- if at the 6:30 poke you see an immortal, I believe it's possible to hold any immortal timing push by doing the following: take a fast 2nd gas, make up to 4 gateways + warp sentries, park your army somewhere on the map, wait until he moves out. By the time he arrives in your natural, save all your probes and sacrifice the nat's nexus. FF your ramp, warp some more sentries, and meanwhile counter him in his main. You'll even have your 4 gates for reinforcements ( more sentries warpins ), an immortal out, and your whole army killing his main.
Interesting, but I don't think it's necessary to base trade. immortal timings are terrible against this, as it takes him forever to move across the map. you will just warp in zealots 4 at a time and destroy him. MAYBE if he does a 2 immortal prism drop with 4 warpgates, with a simultaneous push at the front... but this is pretty wacky. It's just good positioning, scouting, and micro vs any robo play I think.
- if at the 6:30 poke you spot phoenixes ( or phoenixes scout/harass you before that timing ), cancel the robo and drop a total of 6 gates. They should be ready by the time he attacks. Cut probes around 30 and warp as many zealots/stalkers as you can. I'd advise to not take the 2nd gas in this case. Phoenixes cost 150/100, they're not cost effective to lift zealots/stalkers if that's all you have. The main idea is to flood him in quantity/reinforcements.
If his phoenixes harass your probes, he's using his energy for lifting them, which means he probably won't do a timing push but an expo ( or his push will be delayed ). In this case I'd consider chronoing probes, making a twilight and going for a blink timing push.
Yeah, I think the trick with phoenix is to ATTACK, hard and fast, with as many gateways as possible. The thing about phoenix is, unlike muta, they don't actually pin you with their harassment. With muta you can base race and kill all the probes and pylons, then come back to help with the fight. For phoenix, the number of units they can attack is capped - so every probe they kill is one less attacking unit they can lift; plus they can't attack buildings. Phoenix will also mean their sentry count is low, so you can just 6 gate all in.
Cool stuff all around! I'll do some more tests with 2 vs 3 vs 4 gates and see what I come up with. I agree the 1 stalker 3 gate feels really weird... I just don't like leaving that 2nd gateway idle randomly...
On June 01 2012 19:01 Sated wrote: I've been using 2gate openings like this in PvT for ages. I usually go 3 Stalker Rush -> Expand rather than 5 Stalker Rush -> Expand so that I can get the Nexus down earlier, but this actually seems like it would be better because it would enable me to put a load of pressure on 1rax gasless expansions (solving the problems I have against gasless openings using my current 3 Stalker Rush -> Expand builds) and it would also allow me to have an even stronger defence against the 2rax pressure builds that caused me to look into 2gate PvT openings in the first place. I'm definitely going to have to try this out in PvT :D
More on topic:
I wonder how this would work with the DT expand style, since I've fallen in love with that opening so much recently. You'd probably need to take an earlier second gas, which would probably mess with the timings too much..?
PvT this seems too slow, they will just add bunkers and have a faster economy. It would probably be quite effective at lower leagues though.
I have some games vs DT expand. You can get an observer out in time, and your nexus is faster. as long as you hold the archon zealot all in with a colossus and good positioning you are golden.
Yeah nice guide but you should use the Korean 2gate expand instead and just alter the guide accordingly. I can't really see any realistic benefits in these builds over oz and partings 2gate
On June 02 2012 00:35 MateShade wrote: Yeah nice guide but you should use the Korean 2gate expand instead and just alter the guide accordingly. I can't really see any realistic benefits in these builds over oz and partings 2gate
do you have reps/vods for this? we are all looking for them. I'd love to know oz's timings.
Nyast:
Testing 3 early gates.
If you just do a 3 stalker rush (skip 4 and 5) you can get a 3rd gate and warpgate up much sooner, plus earlier expo. I am even cutting fewer probes...
I can hit with 7 units at 6:00, you attack right as your 3rd and 4th stalker arrive at their ramp, so it's pretty much as fast as possible.
I haven't figured out where to fit the robo with this build yet, however. I can get it around 6:20 right after the first warpins, but this will delay the second round a bit. I think I really like this overall, though, it seems to flow very nicely.
I didn't mean that I was wondering how it would work out against a DT Expand, I meant that I was wondering how it would work if you teched up to DTs after expanding i.e. what time would you be able to get DTs out by if you went for this kind of opening.
Ohh yeah I am wondering that myself. The thing is you really need a robo to defend DT's and stalker allins... dark shrine takes forever to build as well. maybe as a follow up instead of colossus, but I've yet to test that at all.
When i 4gate i have a zealot, two stalkers, and four gates finished with warpgate research finishing at 5:22 to 5:28ish depending on map, with pylons already done either in your main or at your ramp.
You should get 1 zealot, 5 stalkers, 4 gates, and warpgate by 6:00.
Not gonna do shit when i can have 1 zealot and 2 stalkers at your base in time to warp, and then warp AGAIN before 6:00.
You are looking at 1z2s, warp, 1z6s, warp, 4z7s at that timing. If the opening doesnt die, and has money for 4 stalkers the moment warpgate completes, it will be a micro battle, but it seems build order loss if you fail to prevent pylons going up.
On June 02 2012 01:47 Cyro wrote: When i 4gate i have a zealot, two stalkers, and four gates finished with warpgate research finishing at 5:22 to 5:28ish depending on map, with pylons already done either in your main or at your ramp.
You should get 1 zealot, 5 stalkers, 4 gates, and warpgate by 6:00.
Not gonna do shit when i can have 1 zealot and 2 stalkers at your base in time to warp, and then warp AGAIN before 6:00.
You are looking at 1z2s, warp, 1z6s, warp, 4z7s at that timing. If the opening doesnt die, and has money for 4 stalkers the moment warpgate completes, it will be a micro battle, but it seems build order loss if you fail to prevent pylons going up.
Your second stalker won't arrive in time as reinforcement at this timing though ( you warp around 5'40 ). It's also not unrealistic to expect that with our 1 zealot and 3 stalkers we can deny close pylons and/or kill your first zealot and damage units that are warping. Your second warp in will happen a bit after 6'10, which is also the timing of our first warpin. Your second stalker will just arrive by that time, so with the first zealot ( hopefully ) killed it'll be 3z7s vs 3z7s: this becomes a micro battle, with a slight eco advantage ( 2 to 3 probes ) to us. I think that should prove that a very agressive 4 gate is at least holdable on equal grounds.
On June 01 2012 07:43 tehemperorer wrote: Well, since this is posted, I will say that I'm working on a 2gate PvP FE that has a nexus, forge, 2 stalkers, 2 zealots, 3 cannons, 2 gates, and 23 probes when a 4gate hits. Unfortunately, the build I am working on can only be realistically done on a map that has a ramp to the natural. More to come...
If I scout an early cannon/forge, my standard reaction is usually to go 4 gate warp prism. It'll hit between 6' and 6'30 ( around 6' if proxied ) with 8 units. It sounds like it'd be an auto win versus your build.
That's pretty early, but the build is not an FFE. Keep an open mind for a sec (even though the build could be a pile of shit, try and think about this and let me know what you think): The build is this: 9pylon 12gate 14gas 15gate 16core 18pylon The pylon, core, and 2nd gate all finish at the same time... you pull all probes off gas at 100 gas to get max mineral gathering. You do get more minerals than a 4gate by the time a 4gate hits by the way, about 200 more minerals total mined. - The twin stalkers finish at 4:15, when you make them you are up to 22 food 2 probes <-- one by one put back in geyser plus 1 that is already mining, start Warpgate when you have 50 gas... thats 17 on minerals and 3 on gas 23/24 forge (this can be delayed, when the cannons go down is dependent only on a future pylon's placement time, not the forge placement time 24 Nexus 24 pylon <--- this determines cannon finish time, this is placed at ramp to natural 24 cannon cannon cannon cb warpgate can make 5 probes here can make 2 zealots here The twin stalkers beat 1z 1s pokes, but they don't beat 3 stalkers or 1z 2s... too bad the cannons are up by the time that 3rd unit makes it to your base (tested on Ohana LE) at 5:45 I have 2 stalkers (out on the map to deny 1z 1s pokes and early pylon placements, but back in base by 5:30), 3 cannons finish exactly at the time a 4gate warps in the 4 stalkers (so travel time from pylon to natural ramp allows for leeway in cannon placement) at 6:30 my 2 zealots are out and warpgate is almost done, so against 6s 5z I have 2z 2s and 3cannons. I add two more gates and warp two sentries (i have money for stalkers but prefer sentries and probes) in case of a delayed hard push. I then 6gate... the idea is that a 6gate off of (relatively)FE: -6gate comes before 2 colossus if col late, or overwhelms 2 colossus since rushed 2 coloss has few units -6gate beats any attempt to expand by enemy -6gate doesn't lose to DT cause of cannons, though 6gate requires additional tech -6gate beats any phoenix play (just push) -6gate beats any phoenix/immortal play off of 1 base (go zeal heavy) -6gate beats non-colossus robo play
If you don't want to push, you can defend with 4gates and tech, adding gateways later.
After practicing the build against masters opponents (currently playing mid-high masters but don't play ladder as often I would like), I will state honestly the problems I've run into below, with some ideas on how to fix: -proxy 2 gate: my build didn't handle the scouting of this well, despite having 2 gates to be able to repel... the mineral timing is pretty tight for the build and, more importantly, the 3rd pylon placed to allow for stalkers to pop when core is done is so late that you are at 18/18 food banking money for stalkers when zeals get in your base (depending on how close the proxy was), that's a problem -cannon rush: like a fool I lost to this because of poor management. Cannon rushing is not a problem with this build, it's me the player. I usually do better but again, I don't play that much anymore so I'm rusty. -sentries: I had a shitload of units at 12 minutes, and went to push on Shakuras. I usually have the same amount of units at 10 minutes, but fought off (easily, no damage was done) a blink transition. However, like a fool I bum rushed up the ramp and lost after a long fight across several warp-ins (despite the enemy having about 5 sentries at his natural plus a young expansion, I almost won... the sentries are a problem so maybe WP to accompany the 6gate?). I'm not convinced the 6gate off of this build can handle sentries since it comes when an opponent has already had an expansion for a few minutes.
I totally understand skepticism, and sometimes question why I waste my time trying to come up with a pvp FE build but I think its worth my time at this point still. To be honest the only thing that really worries me is a wp 4gate, but it comes too late if done on reaction I believe. Again, this all could be a pile of crap because it isn't tested extensively. If you open with WP 4gate it might be an autoloss for me, depends on the actual timing.
On June 02 2012 03:01 tehemperorer wrote: I totally understand skepticism, and sometimes question why I waste my time trying to come up with a pvp FE build but I think its worth my time at this point still. To be honest the only thing that really worries me is a wp 4gate, but it comes too late if done on reaction I believe. Again, this all could be a pile of crap because it isn't tested extensively. If you open with WP 4gate it might be an autoloss for me, depends on the actual timing.
The good thing is that you get two very early stalkers, before you drop forge, so you have map control. This makes your build less likely to be scouted. However, your nexus and cannons are pretty early, so it's very possible that a second scout will let the cat out of the bag if your stalkers are out of pos ( and if they're not, it'll be suspicious that they're at the natural's ramp/choke ). I'd like to see a replay though, it's hard to say if a reactive robo would be too late or not. The good news is that a reactive proxy robo is extremely unlikely, so this adds another 30s for the prism to cross the map: I suspect we're looking at a 7' timing here. Are your 6 gates finished by that time ?
What about robo blink ? This is another typical reaction that would make me worry. This comes a bit later, after 8', but you need to have an immortal done by that time or you're in a world of trouble. To get an immortal done at that time, you need to drop your robo around 6'. Is that something you do in your build ?
And what about somebody that goes for fast blink ( 7' ) and just.. blinks past your 3 cannons/small army and goes into your base ? He may even construct a pylon at the cliff ( but out of range of the cannons ) for reinforcements.
You could also get into trouble with prism double-immortals harassment.
The thing is that compared to the build Quillian and I are working on, you're very defensive in the early stage of the game. A forge and 3 cannons cost 600 minerals. If we scout your early expo, we could as well safely early expo as fast ( slightly behind you ), but with faster tech and no cannon, and you won't have enough units/army to punish it. We'll chrono probes like mad while you're in the dark and feel threatened and have to cut probes.
The good thing is that you get two very early stalkers, before you drop forge, so you have map control. This makes your build less likely to be scouted. However, your nexus and cannons are pretty early, so it's very possible that a second scout will let the cat out of the bag if your stalkers are out of pos ( and if they're not, it'll be suspicious that they're at the natural's ramp/choke ). I'd like to see a replay though, it's hard to say if a reactive robo would be too late or not. The good news is that a reactive proxy robo is extremely unlikely, so this adds another 30s for the prism to cross the map: I suspect we're looking at a 7' timing here. Are your 6 gates finished by that time ?
-True about scout, 2nd scout or stalkers at nat are signs of something... -No, only 4gates are done by 7', and I think at that time I have 2z 2s 2sent (2sentries can be stalker but in practice I've only warped sentries)... Could be tough fight but not sure it's an autoloss
What about robo blink ? This is another typical reaction that would make me worry. This comes a bit later, after 8', but you need to have an immortal done by that time or you're in a world of trouble. To get an immortal done at that time, you need to drop your robo around 6'. Is that something you do in your build ?
No robo for me in the build that early. So far I have approached my build trying to handle all tech from the other player with higher numbers of gateway units at a critical point in time. In the Shakuras game I handled a robo blink pretty easily it seemed; I remember his blink up with his stalkers and me thinking "that's it?". Since I don't get tech I am just warping gateway units from 6' on to 10' in addition to getting probes+pylons. The idea is to hit with high gateway units before tech structures AND an additional nexus kicks in for opponent. Of course further testing is needed, but I'm comfortable with the opponent doing robo blink.
And what about somebody that goes for fast blink ( 7' ) and just.. blinks past your 3 cannons/small army and goes into your base ? He may even construct a pylon at the cliff ( but out of range of the cannons ) for reinforcements.
The biggest concern I had when constructing the build was the enemy by any means getting past the cannons without engaging them. If he doesn't have an obs, he will blink up and get caught by the sentries/cannons I'm pretty sure; like I said from when WG tech is done (in the late 6th minute). I have to look (sorry for the lack of info) but I think at mid 7' I have 4gates and econ to support while the opponent doesn't have as much if doing fast blink. I also have 2 nexus for cb'ing gates so given everything is even, I pull ahead anyway. Gotta check though
You could also get into trouble with prism double-immortals harassment.
I'm not sure the timing of this, I think it's around 8 or 9, but I way outnumber the opponent by that time, assuming he didn't FE (I feel like I can leave units at home and just push at 10'; gotta check)
The thing is that compared to the build Quillian and I are working on, you're very defensive in the early stage of the game. A forge and 3 cannons cost 600 minerals. If we scout your early expo, we could as well safely early expo as fast ( slightly behind you ), but with faster tech and no cannon, and you won't have enough units/army to punish it. We'll chrono probes like mad while you're in the dark and feel threatened and have to cut probes.
Very true. I think a strong counter to this build is actually a proper PvP FE like you dudes are doing. It seems that while mine might be safer than yours, yours can specifically exploit the strong defense and pull ahead while remaining maybe only a slight less safe. Hmm... I take another look at yours now and compare; yours just might be worth going with given the differences.
EDIT: You know what really bugs me reading and writing all this? There are so few Protoss out there who want to explore and practice PvP builds that it's hard to even get going on something you think might work!
When i 4gate i have a zealot, two stalkers, and four gates finished with warpgate research finishing at 5:22 to 5:28ish depending on map, with pylons already done either in your main or at your ramp.
Not gonna do shit when i can have 1 zealot and 2 stalkers at your base in time to warp, and then warp AGAIN before 6:00.
You are looking at 1z2s, warp, 1z6s, warp, 4z7s at that timing. If the opening doesnt die, and has money for 4 stalkers the moment warpgate completes, it will be a micro battle, but it seems build order loss if you fail to prevent pylons going up.
Traditional 4 gate just isn't a problem. it builds units out of 1 gateway while we are building out of 2, and will not have enough units to overwhelm before our warpgates are up. For you to warp in at 5:30 you have to be moving out to build your pylons very early, which I am going to scout with my 1 zealot 3 stalkers. I will simply not build the nexus and add gateways. In my current variation I chronoboost warpgate 4 times, so I will be at most 10-15 second behind you, unless you are 10 gating. I'm happy to test it with you if you like, I need the practice.
That said, something like the 2 gate into 4 gate variation I posted can get a lot more units than a normal 4 gate, and hit after the expansion is already most of the way done.
something like 12 gate > zealot + 3 stalker rush > 4 gates with 4-5 chrono on warpgate can be scary strong.
Tehemporer:
I am clearly interested in experimenting. I just don't think cannons are the solution-- immortals and warp prism are too good against it, and like nyast said it's impossible to punish greedy play. If you you have a build you think works test it and start another thread. This isn't really the place for pvp forge FE discussion though.
On June 02 2012 04:37 tehemperorer wrote:EDIT: You know what really bugs me reading and writing all this? There are so few Protoss out there who want to explore and practice PvP builds that it's hard to even get going on something you think might work!
I think a lot more players would like to play FE builds in PvP if it just wasn't so difficult to make that work. Such a volatile match-up with such ridiculous tech paths makes for a serious challenge to macro play. But eventually, there will be an industry standard for FE in the match-up and I don't think we're that far away right now.
Personally, I haven't contributed to this thread yet because I don't like the 3 Stalker Rush. I think it's better to just 1gate Robo, boost an Immortal ASAP, and then take the Nexus after the 4gate timing window, as my obs is rolling into my opponent's base and I see everything.
When i 4gate i have a zealot, two stalkers, and four gates finished with warpgate research finishing at 5:22 to 5:28ish depending on map, with pylons already done either in your main or at your ramp.
Not gonna do shit when i can have 1 zealot and 2 stalkers at your base in time to warp, and then warp AGAIN before 6:00.
You are looking at 1z2s, warp, 1z6s, warp, 4z7s at that timing. If the opening doesnt die, and has money for 4 stalkers the moment warpgate completes, it will be a micro battle, but it seems build order loss if you fail to prevent pylons going up.
Traditional 4 gate just isn't a problem. it builds units out of 1 gateway while we are building out of 2, and will not have enough units to overwhelm before our warpgates are up. For you to warp in at 5:30 you have to be moving out to build your pylons very early, which I am going to scout with my 1 zealot 3 stalkers. I will simply not build the nexus and add gateways. In my current variation I chronoboost warpgate 4 times, so I will be at most 10-15 second behind you, unless you are 10 gating. I'm happy to test it with you if you like, I need the practice.
That said, something like the 2 gate into 4 gate variation I posted can get a lot more units than a normal 4 gate, and hit after the expansion is already most of the way done.
something like 12 gate > zealot + 3 stalker rush > 4 gates with 4-5 chrono on warpgate can be scary strong.
Tehemporer:
I am clearly interested in experimenting. I just don't think cannons are the solution-- immortals and warp prism are too good against it, and like nyast said it's impossible to punish greedy play. If you you have a build you think works test it and start another thread. This isn't really the place for pvp forge FE discussion though.
You are correct this is not the place for Forge related FEs in PvP; I was going to make another thread but my build is too undeveloped to even bother. I posted that short thing then responded to some good points, and if it didn't help you, you will be glad to know it did help me. I am almost on your side in thinking that cannons are not the answer, but the one thing that keeps me from jumping off the fence onto your side is something that bothers me that you hinted on in your above paragraph: "you will simply not build the nexus." To me, that is the last option to be explored when all other options have gone out the window since the ideal build we are looking for allows you to expand and hold off aggression, instead of looking to expand but finding aggression and matching it with the right amount of gates instead of expanding. I don't see how you do that without having cannons.
Cannons clearly achieve the safety for a nexus; the only thing that is bad about them is that the enemy can exploit their immobility by WP or by blink/obs, but that's not a reason to throw cannons out the window. I get back to you when I have more
Since you are initially having 1 zealot and about 5 stalkers pre WG then warping in 2 zealot and 2 stalkers would you say this is a viable option to 4g with instead of the traditional 4g? I feel as though this method gives you more units faster and makes the 4g push somewhat viable.
I'm not actually sure where I could find a replay but parting did a bit of a greedier variation in the latest day9 daily (came out today I think). It's basically a 3 stalker rush with the second gas at 19 and 3 guys in gas. In this game, parting waits for warp gate to warp in 2 sentries, but usually you'd make 2 sentries out of the gateway first then warp 2 more in. Day9 talks a little about timings
As already said, a 6:00 4-gate's first warpin is very very late (at that point you've probably lost against most builds anyway). It's more like 5:30, 5:40 to be realistic.
I'm not actually sure where I could find a replay but parting did a bit of a greedier variation in the latest day9 daily (came out today I think). It's basically a 3 stalker rush with the second gas at 19 and 3 guys in gas. In this game, parting waits for warp gate to warp in 2 sentries, but usually you'd make 2 sentries out of the gateway first then warp 2 more in. Day9 talks a little about timings
Cool, I'll check it out! I'm dubious about relying on more than 2 sentries, though. On any map where the natural doesn't have a small ramp they are useless. I prefer to get lots of zealots and fast tech to something more useful in a fight.
As already said, a 6:00 4-gate's first warpin is very very late (at that point you've probably lost against most builds anyway). It's more like 5:30, 5:40 to be realistic.
Current iteration of the build spends 4 chrono on warpgate, and has 3 gates at 5:40. 4 gate is not a problem for this build unless you royally screw up.
I'm not actually sure where I could find a replay but parting did a bit of a greedier variation in the latest day9 daily (came out today I think). It's basically a 3 stalker rush with the second gas at 19 and 3 guys in gas. In this game, parting waits for warp gate to warp in 2 sentries, but usually you'd make 2 sentries out of the gateway first then warp 2 more in. Day9 talks a little about timings
Cool, I'll check it out! I'm dubious about relying on more than 2 sentries, though. On any map where the natural doesn't have a small ramp they are useless. I prefer to get lots of zealots and fast tech to something more useful in a fight.
As already said, a 6:00 4-gate's first warpin is very very late (at that point you've probably lost against most builds anyway). It's more like 5:30, 5:40 to be realistic.
Current iteration of the build spends 4 chrono on warpgate, and has 3 gates at 5:40. 4 gate is not a problem for this build unless you royally screw up.
I think the sentries are really necessary for holding early 1 base plays, and are particularly useful vs 4gate. I honestly don't see how someone with equal micro and a perfect 4gate could lose to you with your current build unless they make a mistake, hence why the sentries are necessary. Still, go searching for the korean build, draw some comparisons and decide for yourself what benefits and disadvantages each have, and see what others think about your conclusions
I'm not actually sure where I could find a replay but parting did a bit of a greedier variation in the latest day9 daily (came out today I think). It's basically a 3 stalker rush with the second gas at 19 and 3 guys in gas. In this game, parting waits for warp gate to warp in 2 sentries, but usually you'd make 2 sentries out of the gateway first then warp 2 more in. Day9 talks a little about timings
Cool, I'll check it out! I'm dubious about relying on more than 2 sentries, though. On any map where the natural doesn't have a small ramp they are useless. I prefer to get lots of zealots and fast tech to something more useful in a fight.
As already said, a 6:00 4-gate's first warpin is very very late (at that point you've probably lost against most builds anyway). It's more like 5:30, 5:40 to be realistic.
Current iteration of the build spends 4 chrono on warpgate, and has 3 gates at 5:40. 4 gate is not a problem for this build unless you royally screw up.
Sentries are very important in defending all-ins on any map with a choke in the natural. They are one of the reasons FE is possible in PvP and why they've been getting more popular later. I'll dig up some vods of korean 2 gate FE when I'm free next. I've been using it a lot and actually started writing a guide about it before getting bored.
On June 02 2012 05:07 quillian wrote: In my current variation I chronoboost warpgate 4 times, so I will be at most 10-15 second behind you, unless you are 10 gating. I'm happy to test it with you if you like, I need the practice.
What is your current variation against 4 gates ?
If you chrono 4 times warp and still produce stalkers 4 and 5 out of the 2 early gates, they won't complete in sync with warp, you'll have to wait for a while before they finish so that you can transform those 2 gates into warpgates. So the faster warp is being useless.
There's another variant, which I suspect is what you're speaking of, where you delay stalkers 2 and 3 to drop the 2 additional gates ( 4'35 ), and then produce them. The timings all sync up nicely: your warp finishes at 5'40 just in time for stalkers 2 and 3 and the gates 3 and 4 to complete. Then you transform your 4 gates into warpgates, so at 5'50 you're ready to warp in 4 stalkers ( or 3 stalkers and 1 zealot ). That gives 1-2 more units compared to the 4-gater.
The problem with that build is that you stay on 1 zealot, 1 stalker until 5'40, so there's no way to deny pylons. But you should still be in an okay position, with 1 more unit and a couple more probes than the 4 gater. Is that what you're speaking about ?
I currently do not know any variant that gets you 1z 5st and warp done at 5'40 with 4 gates idle. I doubt it's possible.
On June 02 2012 00:27 quillian wrote: Right, there are a variety of 6 to 8 minute 1 base all ins we have to hold, namely: - 4 gate (holds) - 3gate robo (holds) - blink (seems to hold, barely) - phoenix (might hold if we cut robo and get gates faster)
However, there are also a few attacks that hit slightly later, but with more punch, as you hint at:
- DT into chargelot archon @ 10:00. This is REALLY strong, and will probably kill you unless you get a colossus out. - 1 base 2 colossus timing @ 9:00 - 10:00. Also pretty tough, but possible to defend by chronoing immortals.
As this is what I've had trouble with, that is what my build was designed for. You need the robo immediately for a fast observer and colossus in this case, and you will be behind their tech already, so you need gas asap.
I do not totally agree with you here. In my view: - 4 gate: holds - 3 gate robo: I'm not convinced that it holds. Especially the 1 gate robo into a total of 4-5 gates ( strong timing push ). - blink: I agree it should barely hold - phoenix: yeah, should hold if scouted in time
- DT into charge/archons: on most maps it's possible to full-wall the natural, which makes the chargelots completely useless. This is my standard response to charge/archons when I'm ahead. There may be some maps on which it's not possible to wall, in that case I agree it must be tough. - 2 colossi timing: immortals should indeed do well, but I think the most important part is to just flood him with units. 6+ gates should really help.
For these 2 last builds, I don't see what you gain from going colossi yourself. You're not gonna get 2 colossi out in time, and no range either. You can have a single colossus without range, but it'll get owned by stalkers/immortals. I feel like going to 6 gates, maybe with blink, is a better response.
However, if your opponent's answer is to get his own expo, then by all means, go colossi as fast as you can. Hell, go double or triple robo asap
On June 02 2012 00:27 quillian wrote: I think, basically, that we are saying the same thing from different perspectives: Your perspective is that the 8 minute timing is your default scenario, and you will adapt to the colossus or DT> I'm working from the assumption of a longer game, and "reacting" to the 8 minute aggression if I scout it.
Yep, you nailed it. I'm more worried about the 8' timings than the later ones. Do you have more replays vs those timings ? I'd really like to see how you hold. Maybe I'm over-estimating those pushes ?
I'm not actually sure where I could find a replay but parting did a bit of a greedier variation in the latest day9 daily (came out today I think). It's basically a 3 stalker rush with the second gas at 19 and 3 guys in gas. In this game, parting waits for warp gate to warp in 2 sentries, but usually you'd make 2 sentries out of the gateway first then warp 2 more in. Day9 talks a little about timings
Cool, I'll check it out! I'm dubious about relying on more than 2 sentries, though. On any map where the natural doesn't have a small ramp they are useless. I prefer to get lots of zealots and fast tech to something more useful in a fight.
As already said, a 6:00 4-gate's first warpin is very very late (at that point you've probably lost against most builds anyway). It's more like 5:30, 5:40 to be realistic.
Current iteration of the build spends 4 chrono on warpgate, and has 3 gates at 5:40. 4 gate is not a problem for this build unless you royally screw up.
Sentries are very important in defending all-ins on any map with a choke in the natural. They are one of the reasons FE is possible in PvP and why they've been getting more popular later. I'll dig up some vods of korean 2 gate FE when I'm free next. I've been using it a lot and actually started writing a guide about it before getting bored.
I'm so excited about that guide! Your guides are the best <3
Here's a replay of me doing the 2 gate FE versus fast DTs expo. As I force a cancel of his expo ( while mine is at 50% ), he goes all-in with a chargelots/archons 10' timing push:
Hey all, i can confirm that this works BEAUTIFULLY. As for the transitions, i'm not so sure. I basically transitioned into a 4gate robo +1/+1 blink immortal timing push, with warp prism harass etc
I'm a top gold zerg who has never played protoss, but i tried it out and beat a plat toss.
I haven't watched it, but basically i have SO many units when his 4gate hits that even though i forgot to morph to warp gate (lol again, im z not p), i crushed his attack, killed the pylon, and transitioned.
I'm thinking that instead of warping in zlots to harass i should pick do an immortal drop and blink into his main... any thoughts? I have no experience how PvP usually plays out, except for a few games i've seen casted.
In my current variation I chronoboost warpgate 4 times, so I will be at most 10-15 second behind you, unless you are 10 gating. I'm happy to test it with you if you like, I need the practice.
I would love to test my 10 gate against this. BronzeKnee.303 NA
So, I've been trying the 3 gate thing you suggested more, and I kind of like it. Basically I get the 1z 3st normally, "skip" stalker 3 & 4, instead adding 3rd gate at 31 and chronoing warpgate 4 times. This lets me hit at the normal time a super fast 4 gate would (~5:40) with 2z 5 stalker. At that point you decide whether to continue the push by warping in 3 more units, or build a robo.
It doesn't feel as "clean" to me as the 5 stalker rush, but I think technically you are getting stalker 4 & 5 to their base much sooner.
Since you like the warpgate aggression I thought you might enjoy this variation, as it puts on a ton of pressure quite early even while expanding.
Also updated video link in the guide. be warned, this is crappy play from early testing (first few games)
I'm not actually sure where I could find a replay but parting did a bit of a greedier variation in the latest day9 daily (came out today I think). It's basically a 3 stalker rush with the second gas at 19 and 3 guys in gas. In this game, parting waits for warp gate to warp in 2 sentries, but usually you'd make 2 sentries out of the gateway first then warp 2 more in. Day9 talks a little about timings
Cool, I'll check it out! I'm dubious about relying on more than 2 sentries, though. On any map where the natural doesn't have a small ramp they are useless. I prefer to get lots of zealots and fast tech to something more useful in a fight.
As already said, a 6:00 4-gate's first warpin is very very late (at that point you've probably lost against most builds anyway). It's more like 5:30, 5:40 to be realistic.
Current iteration of the build spends 4 chrono on warpgate, and has 3 gates at 5:40. 4 gate is not a problem for this build unless you royally screw up.
Sentries are very important in defending all-ins on any map with a choke in the natural. They are one of the reasons FE is possible in PvP and why they've been getting more popular later. I'll dig up some vods of korean 2 gate FE when I'm free next. I've been using it a lot and actually started writing a guide about it before getting bored.
I'm so excited about that guide! Your guides are the best <3
NRGMonk whaiting!!
Don't get your hopes up. I don't ever plan on ever finishing this guide as I'm too busy with other stuffs. But as promised, here are the vods of the build off the top of my head. I've actually been using this build before it was shown in the GSL, because I modified a version of a 2 gate expand that Sase used to do. You can ask me questions about it if you'd like. Basically the build is:
Open standard 3 stalker rush Make 2 sentries right after the 3 stalkers. Make a nexus, around 5:40ish i think. Warp in 2 sentries Add a robotics Add a 3rd gateway Make an immortal out of your robo Defend stuff
On June 03 2012 14:34 quillian wrote: So, I've been trying the 3 gate thing you suggested more, and I kind of like it. Basically I get the 1z 3st normally, "skip" stalker 3 & 4, instead adding 3rd gate at 31 and chronoing warpgate 4 times. This lets me hit at the normal time a super fast 4 gate would (~5:40) with 2z 5 stalker. At that point you decide whether to continue the push by warping in 3 more units, or build a robo.
It doesn't feel as "clean" to me as the 5 stalker rush, but I think technically you are getting stalker 4 & 5 to their base much sooner.
Yeah, you can do a lot more damage with 2z 5s going in his main around 6' than 3z 5s poking at 6'30-7'.
Speaking of variations, I've found another one, based off your 2 gates, that you're going to love.
It plays around with the construction order to get the expo down at exactly 5'. That's 40s earlier than normally, and it gets the same amount of units at 6' ( 3z, 5st ):
Here's how it goes:
- early build unchanged, you do 1z 3st out of your 2 first gates - you stay at 22 probes and 30/34 just after you've queued up your stalkers 2 and 3. This lets you accumulate minerals. - at 5', you put your nexus down - immediately after you queue up stalkers 4 and 5, you're now at 34/34 - pylon near opponent's base, warp finishes at 6', warp 2 zealots and immediately drop a robo ( robo should go down around 6'10 ). Note: stalkers 4 and 5 are in the middle of the map when you warp, so either you wait until they arrive, either you poke immediately Chronos: 3 chronos on probes as usual, then you need to reserve 2 chronos for stalkers 4 and 5, the rest goes to warp ( 2 times if I count well ).
Downsides: you stay at 22 probes for a long time, you resume probes production around 6'. If you don't mind one less stalker, you can cut stalker 5th, chrono warp 3 times instead of 2 and continue probe production a lot earlier and warp that stalker instead of a zealot. That'll give you 2z 5st for the poke.
On June 03 2012 23:48 eusoc wrote: I wonder how would it work vs a 1base phoenix-immortal allin...anything about that?
I haven't played against phoenix immortal, but here's one game against 1 gate stargate into 4 gates all-in:
That's my new 2 gates variant with FE at 5'. The robo ended up useless. It was a pretty tough fight, mostly because I got supply blocked at the moment he went out of his base to attack, so I had less units than I should have when his push came. His FF were also damn annoying. Still, despite all of that, you can hold as long as you pull the natural's probes ( and I still had the lead in eco ).
Here's another replay, same build but this time versus 2 gate robo into expo:
That game wasn't even close. He must probably have got the surprise of his life when his observer reached my natural at 8' and he saw my expo was already saturated :p Game then turns into colo wars with a big advantage for me ( triple robo for the win ).
One thing I really like with that build is that it's really threatening. At the first scout, he'll see you didn't take your second gas, and all pointers lead to a 4 gate ( besides the 3rd chrono on probes, but it could be a delayed 4 gate ). This forces most players to make sentries or fast immortals instead of teching too fast. Then they see you coming on the map with a zealot and stalker, placing a pylon, and there comes a push with a decent little number of units. I guess most players would think of a 3 or 4 gate agressive push when it's a damn fast expo.
You need to upload replays of this against high level pvp builds. Ones that are executed correctly and on time, not of an off racing gold leaguer. I don't mean any disrespect to him but I thought this forum had pretty strict guidelines that say you have to know what you're talking about when you write a guide. You haven't shown that this build is solid against any well executed 1 base plays
You briefly address the possible counter of 1 base 2 colo push (which you say can be held though I am not so sure), but what about the big push with gate units, 2 immortals and 1 colossus that we see often from players like naniwa? How could you possibly hold this off?
Also you should be careful about recommending people to go triple robo colossus. On two base this means literally all your gas is going towards colossi and if your opponent builds void rays you 100% auto lose
Don't get your hopes up. I don't ever plan on ever finishing this guide as I'm too busy with other stuffs. But as promised, here are the vods of the build off the top of my head. I've actually been using this build before it was shown in the GSL, because I modified a version of a 2 gate expand that Sase used to do. You can ask me questions about it if you'd like. Basically the build is:
Open standard 3 stalker rush Make 2 sentries right after the 3 stalkers. Make a nexus, around 5:40ish i think. Warp in 2 sentries Add a robotics Add a 3rd gateway Make an immortal out of your robo Defend stuff
I've added a rough sketch of Oz's build to the guide, along with the link to the OZ Parting game. I will give this variation a shot as well, though I feel like 4 sentries on a map like daybreak is an over-investment due to the two ramps. On ohana or shakuras it makes perfect sense though, and I will probably use this build.
Don't get your hopes up. I don't ever plan on ever finishing this guide as I'm too busy with other stuffs. But as promised, here are the vods of the build off the top of my head. I've actually been using this build before it was shown in the GSL, because I modified a version of a 2 gate expand that Sase used to do. You can ask me questions about it if you'd like. Basically the build is:
Open standard 3 stalker rush Make 2 sentries right after the 3 stalkers. Make a nexus, around 5:40ish i think. Warp in 2 sentries Add a robotics Add a 3rd gateway Make an immortal out of your robo Defend stuff
I've added a rough sketch of Oz's build to the guide, along with the link to the OZ Parting game. I will give this variation a shot as well, though I feel like 4 sentries on a map like daybreak is an over-investment due to the two ramps. On ohana or shakuras it makes perfect sense though, and I will probably use this build.
Watching your games now nyast, thanks again!
On the contrary, imo you need 4 sentries on maps like Daybreak because it has a big ramp. There's no other viable way to defend against things like random gateway or immortal pushes.
Hmm..for lategame pvp, after getting a huge lead from this build, should I go for colo or immortals? I'm a Protoss noob, but I thought colo were only good against zealots and sentries...
On June 04 2012 04:22 Mavvie wrote: Hmm..for lategame pvp, after getting a huge lead from this build, should I go for colo or immortals? I'm a Protoss noob, but I thought colo were only good against zealots and sentries...
If you don't know if going to colossi in lategame PvP is good I guess is better for you NOT doing this build and try something more standard imho ^^
On June 04 2012 04:22 Mavvie wrote: Hmm..for lategame pvp, after getting a huge lead from this build, should I go for colo or immortals? I'm a Protoss noob, but I thought colo were only good against zealots and sentries...
If you don't know if going to colossi in lategame PvP is good I guess is better for you NOT doing this build and try something more standard imho ^^
I don't main Protoss, but Ive just switched and pvp is my worst matchup. Every game I hold off aggressive openings, get a huge Eco lead, then die to whatever he sends at me. I thought immortals countered colo... I usually play Zerg, and ZvZ is basically mass roach wars lolol.
So a good transition would be double gas at nat, get 2 more robo then pump out colo zealot?
On June 04 2012 04:22 Mavvie wrote: Hmm..for lategame pvp, after getting a huge lead from this build, should I go for colo or immortals? I'm a Protoss noob, but I thought colo were only good against zealots and sentries...
If you don't know if going to colossi in lategame PvP is good I guess is better for you NOT doing this build and try something more standard imho ^^
I don't main Protoss, but Ive just switched and pvp is my worst matchup. Every game I hold off aggressive openings, get a huge Eco lead, then die to whatever he sends at me. I thought immortals countered colo... I usually play Zerg, and ZvZ is basically mass roach wars lolol.
So a good transition would be double gas at nat, get 2 more robo then pump out colo zealot?
speaking of 2 gate expansions, empire.VINES uses a really cool 2 gate opener that involves 2 probes on each gas initially
(taken from his stream): 13 gateway (uses a 3rd CB on nexus right after the 2nd one) @15th probe 80% done, get 1st geyser 16 2nd geyser (2 probes in each) 17 pylon 17 cybercore (rallied probe builds it) @ cybercore ~50% complete, get a 2nd gateway
From here the build can branch off. Vines puts an additional probe on each gas at around 20 supply and makes 3 stalkers > 2 sentries then expos (sometimes makes a robo before expo).
However you can keep 2 probes on each gas for a bit longer and go up to 4-5 chrono'd stalkers > nexus like the build in the OP while still having the available gas for sentries/robo earlier. For example, sometimes I will make 4 stalkers and 1 sentry after which can be aggressive, get a quick nexus, and still have 1 sentry on top of your ramp to hold vs a 3gate/4gate etc.
Hi, i tested your build, I'm masters between 600-700 points. it worked pretty nicely, and i got a critical advantage with it against a 1 base blink stalkers with observer. I threw the game away because of some micro mistakes at the end, but i should've won that game by far. here is the replay: 20-10 trying the build n1. Any feedback is appreciated.
Here's a replay of me holding a very agressive 4-gate. This is a gate @ 11 with warp chronoed 5 times and done at 5'20 and probes cut at 18. I couldn't prevent his pylons from being constructed at my ramp either ( they go down very early ), so it's kind of a perfectly executed build by the 4 gater.
I kindda tried to delay his attack but I lose a pylon in the process and got supply blocked at the worst time. If I had ancitipated it better and built another pylon, I feel like I'd have won more convincingly. It all came down to micro.
I hope that proves it's not impossible to hold a very agressive 4 gate with that build. My opponent was a ~950 points master.
This week-end, I had a loss against a toss that went fast blink. He made a 1 gate twilight into a total of 4 gates. I threatened him at the usual 6'30, which forced him to warp 2 sentries to hold. He only had 3 stalkers at this time. He continued to warp in stalkers, and by the time his pylon was up near my natural, his army walked up into my natural at exactly 9'. He hadn't scouted my fast expo, and I had exactly 1 immortal ready at that time. I could almost hold but in the end I lost.
This made me rethink if there wasn't a way to rearrange the order of units/buildings to get stuff done faster. I found two "new" variants which are based on the same early build ( you get 22 probes, delay the third pylon and get a second gate just before the core finishes. One zealot and one stalker, third chrono on probes ). The key idea is to cut stalkers 2 and 3 to get your expo and additional gates faster.
Variant 1: you start your expo at 4'30 exactly, add 2 more gates and then the third pylon. Around 5'30 you start the robo. Then you'll warp in 2 zealots and 2 stalkers around 6' and threaten him with 3 zealots 3 stalkers. Advantages: very eco and can get 3 immortals by 9', you'll most likely crush blink and later timings. Drawbacks: risky, you're out on the map with a single zealot and stalker, he may sneak a probe in your base and drop pylons, so you better make sure he's not 4 gating. If he reactively tries to punish you, you can sacrifice/cancel the expo, warp some sentries and FF your ramp while you wait for him to leave his base to sneak your army in there. You are on 4 gates anyway.
Variant 2: you add 2 more gates and start your expo a bit before 5', then add the third pylon. Warp finishes around 5'40, you immediately warp in 2 zealots and 2 stalkers, and delay your robo a little bit ( around 6'15 ). Advantages: a lot more agressive, and since it looks like a 3-stalkers rush, may be under-estimated by your opponent. You'll still poke with 3z 3st, but it'll be a lot faster, and if you see he plays very greedy, you can keep the 4 gate up to kill him. Drawbacks: robo is more delayed, can get up to 2 immortals at 9'.
Those two variants are kindda weak against a 3 stalkers rush, since you're not getting your own stalkers 2 and 3. The opponent doesn't know that though, so it's unlikely that he'll keep up his agression all the way up to your base. And if he does, your 4 gates are done at a standard time to ensure your safety. It may be more likely that he'll snippe your probe which will force you to warp at home and abandon the agression, or warp further away.
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