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On June 04 2012 04:22 Mavvie wrote:
Hmm..for lategame pvp, after getting a huge lead from this build, should I go for colo or immortals? I'm a Protoss noob, but I thought colo were only good against zealots and sentries...
If you don't know if going to colossi in lategame PvP is good I guess is better for you NOT doing this build and try something more standard imho ^^
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On June 04 2012 05:41 eusoc wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2012 04:22 Mavvie wrote:
Hmm..for lategame pvp, after getting a huge lead from this build, should I go for colo or immortals? I'm a Protoss noob, but I thought colo were only good against zealots and sentries... If you don't know if going to colossi in lategame PvP is good I guess is better for you NOT doing this build and try something more standard imho ^^
I don't main Protoss, but Ive just switched and pvp is my worst matchup. Every game I hold off aggressive openings, get a huge Eco lead, then die to whatever he sends at me. I thought immortals countered colo... I usually play Zerg, and ZvZ is basically mass roach wars lolol.
So a good transition would be double gas at nat, get 2 more robo then pump out colo zealot?
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United States8476 Posts
On June 04 2012 06:08 Mavvie wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2012 05:41 eusoc wrote:On June 04 2012 04:22 Mavvie wrote:
Hmm..for lategame pvp, after getting a huge lead from this build, should I go for colo or immortals? I'm a Protoss noob, but I thought colo were only good against zealots and sentries... If you don't know if going to colossi in lategame PvP is good I guess is better for you NOT doing this build and try something more standard imho ^^ I don't main Protoss, but Ive just switched and pvp is my worst matchup. Every game I hold off aggressive openings, get a huge Eco lead, then die to whatever he sends at me. I thought immortals countered colo... I usually play Zerg, and ZvZ is basically mass roach wars lolol. So a good transition would be double gas at nat, get 2 more robo then pump out colo zealot?
Try reading this first:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=329091
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speaking of 2 gate expansions, empire.VINES uses a really cool 2 gate opener that involves 2 probes on each gas initially
(taken from his stream):
13 gateway
(uses a 3rd CB on nexus right after the 2nd one)
@15th probe 80% done, get 1st geyser
16 2nd geyser (2 probes in each)
17 pylon
17 cybercore (rallied probe builds it)
@ cybercore ~50% complete, get a 2nd gateway
From here the build can branch off. Vines puts an additional probe on each gas at around 20 supply and makes 3 stalkers > 2 sentries then expos (sometimes makes a robo before expo).
However you can keep 2 probes on each gas for a bit longer and go up to 4-5 chrono'd stalkers > nexus like the build in the OP while still having the available gas for sentries/robo earlier. For example, sometimes I will make 4 stalkers and 1 sentry after which can be aggressive, get a quick nexus, and still have 1 sentry on top of your ramp to hold vs a 3gate/4gate etc.
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Hi, i tested your build, I'm masters between 600-700 points. it worked pretty nicely, and i got a critical advantage with it against a 1 base blink stalkers with observer. I threw the game away because of some micro mistakes at the end, but i should've won that game by far. here is the replay: 20-10 trying the build n1. Any feedback is appreciated.
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Here's a replay of me holding a very agressive 4-gate. This is a gate @ 11 with warp chronoed 5 times and done at 5'20 and probes cut at 18. I couldn't prevent his pylons from being constructed at my ramp either ( they go down very early ), so it's kind of a perfectly executed build by the 4 gater.
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-264853.jpg)
I kindda tried to delay his attack but I lose a pylon in the process and got supply blocked at the worst time. If I had ancitipated it better and built another pylon, I feel like I'd have won more convincingly. It all came down to micro.
I hope that proves it's not impossible to hold a very agressive 4 gate with that build. My opponent was a ~950 points master.
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More variations on the build:
This week-end, I had a loss against a toss that went fast blink. He made a 1 gate twilight into a total of 4 gates. I threatened him at the usual 6'30, which forced him to warp 2 sentries to hold. He only had 3 stalkers at this time. He continued to warp in stalkers, and by the time his pylon was up near my natural, his army walked up into my natural at exactly 9'. He hadn't scouted my fast expo, and I had exactly 1 immortal ready at that time. I could almost hold but in the end I lost.
This made me rethink if there wasn't a way to rearrange the order of units/buildings to get stuff done faster. I found two "new" variants which are based on the same early build ( you get 22 probes, delay the third pylon and get a second gate just before the core finishes. One zealot and one stalker, third chrono on probes ). The key idea is to cut stalkers 2 and 3 to get your expo and additional gates faster.
Variant 1: you start your expo at 4'30 exactly, add 2 more gates and then the third pylon. Around 5'30 you start the robo. Then you'll warp in 2 zealots and 2 stalkers around 6' and threaten him with 3 zealots 3 stalkers.
Advantages: very eco and can get 3 immortals by 9', you'll most likely crush blink and later timings.
Drawbacks: risky, you're out on the map with a single zealot and stalker, he may sneak a probe in your base and drop pylons, so you better make sure he's not 4 gating. If he reactively tries to punish you, you can sacrifice/cancel the expo, warp some sentries and FF your ramp while you wait for him to leave his base to sneak your army in there. You are on 4 gates anyway.
Variant 2: you add 2 more gates and start your expo a bit before 5', then add the third pylon. Warp finishes around 5'40, you immediately warp in 2 zealots and 2 stalkers, and delay your robo a little bit ( around 6'15 ).
Advantages: a lot more agressive, and since it looks like a 3-stalkers rush, may be under-estimated by your opponent. You'll still poke with 3z 3st, but it'll be a lot faster, and if you see he plays very greedy, you can keep the 4 gate up to kill him.
Drawbacks: robo is more delayed, can get up to 2 immortals at 9'.
Those two variants are kindda weak against a 3 stalkers rush, since you're not getting your own stalkers 2 and 3. The opponent doesn't know that though, so it's unlikely that he'll keep up his agression all the way up to your base. And if he does, your 4 gates are done at a standard time to ensure your safety. It may be more likely that he'll snippe your probe which will force you to warp at home and abandon the agression, or warp further away.
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This looks really well written. I will read it right now.
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EPT
