EPT[G][D] PVP 2 gate expand - A new Era for Protoss - Page 2
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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Nyast
Belgium554 Posts
On June 01 2012 15:10 quillian wrote: Cool thanks for posting this Nyast. I think we are working on very similar lines. I am also doing a ~6:10 warpin and poking the front with 3 z 5 st. I don't know if this is a perfect example of your 3 gate variation or not, but the timing seems a little slack. the stalkers are all delayed slightly, the 3rd gate doesn't get much use early on, as you can't afford the warpins while building immortal anyway, and the second gas is very late, which delays any tech. You also need to go observer first in case of DT unless you are sure of his build. A couple of remarks: - I guess the 3rd gate could be slightly delayed. It must be ready when I do the warpin around 6'30 though. However the main interest of the 3rd gate is that it acts as a "safety net". If you spot a greedy build from him, you have the option to continue the warpins to attack him. If you see that he's gonna be immediately agressive, or if he has a pylon near your base and warps while you're out of pos, you can more easily damper damage. But under standard play, the 3rd gate is indeed kindda useless. - I produce and chrono a 4th stalker, but the 5th stalker comes from the warpin. It feels quite weird, but this allows to make the robo before the warpin, which I think is critical. - the build I posted is working under the assumption that the opponent scouts the expo ( either with an early obs or a unit ) and immediately reacts with a timing push. I think you'll agree that there isn't much to fear from 1-base all-ins past the 9-10' mark. What worries me are pushes around 8'. There isn't much to fear from pushes before 7' since if he's doing a tech build, he won't have more units than you anyway. Therefore 8' is the critical timing. If this build can survive any 8' timing push, it's solid. If not, it's useless. - in consequence, the build I posted is done with the mentality "get as much early units as realitically possible". If the opponent expoes, or if you suspect DTs ( can easily be hinted by your 6'30 poke ), or if you suspect 1 base colossi, you can take the 2nd gas faster. I agree that your build including a faster robo bay sounds sexy, but honnestly it's useless for any timing push your opponent does. It's only worth it if he decides to play the macro game ( expo later than you ) which means that a delayed 2nd gas is not that critical. You can take the 2nd, 3rd and 4th gas all at once faster than him anyway. -- Now some food for thought: what I'm going to say is valid for any of our variants, even your 2 gates: - if at the 6:30 poke you see an immortal, I believe it's possible to hold any immortal timing push by doing the following: take a fast 2nd gas, make up to 4 gateways + warp sentries, park your army somewhere on the map, wait until he moves out. By the time he arrives in your natural, save all your probes and sacrifice the nat's nexus. FF your ramp, warp some more sentries, and meanwhile counter him in his main. You'll even have your 4 gates for reinforcements ( more sentries warpins ), an immortal out, and your whole army killing his main. - if at the 6:30 poke you spot phoenixes ( or phoenixes scout/harass you before that timing ), cancel the robo and drop a total of 6 gates. They should be ready by the time he attacks. Cut probes around 30 and warp as many zealots/stalkers as you can. I'd advise to not take the 2nd gas in this case. Phoenixes cost 150/100, they're not cost effective to lift zealots/stalkers if that's all you have. The main idea is to flood him in quantity/reinforcements. If his phoenixes harass your probes, he's using his energy for lifting them, which means he probably won't do a timing push but an expo ( or his push will be delayed ). In this case I'd consider chronoing probes, making a twilight and going for a blink timing push. | ||
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quillian
United States318 Posts
On June 01 2012 19:02 Nyast wrote: A couple of remarks: - I guess the 3rd gate could be slightly delayed. It must be ready when I do the warpin around 6'30 though. However the main interest of the 3rd gate is that it acts as a "safety net". If you spot a greedy build from him, you have the option to continue the warpins to attack him. If you see that he's gonna be immediately agressive, or if he has a pylon near your base and warps while you're out of pos, you can more easily damper damage. But under standard play, the 3rd gate is indeed kindda useless. I guess the question is "what is greedy play that a 3rd gate could punish?" You have a base up on him, I don't know many situations where you'd desperately need to kill him right then, and that 1 gate would make the difference. - I produce and chrono a 4th stalker, but the 5th stalker comes from the warpin. It feels quite weird, but this allows to make the robo before the warpin, which I think is critical. I've also started going robo before warpin, pretty much at the same time as you. Cutting the stalker is what allows you to get the 3rd gate -- they are basically interchangeable. In fact, you might be able to cut both stalkers, do 2 more chrono on warpgate, and add 2 more gates. Maybe I'll try that today.... - the build I posted is working under the assumption that the opponent scouts the expo ( either with an early obs or a unit ) and immediately reacts with a timing push. I think you'll agree that there isn't much to fear from 1-base all-ins past the 9-10' mark. What worries me are pushes around 8'. There isn't much to fear from pushes before 7' since if he's doing a tech build, he won't have more units than you anyway. Therefore 8' is the critical timing. If this build can survive any 8' timing push, it's solid. If not, it's useless. Right, there are a variety of 6 to 8 minute 1 base all ins we have to hold, namely: - 4 gate (holds) - 3gate robo (holds) - blink (seems to hold, barely) - phoenix (might hold if we cut robo and get gates faster) However, there are also a few attacks that hit slightly later, but with more punch, as you hint at: - in consequence, the build I posted is done with the mentality "get as much early units as realitically possible". If the opponent expoes, or if you suspect DTs ( can easily be hinted by your 6'30 poke ), or if you suspect 1 base colossi, you can take the 2nd gas faster. I agree that your build including a faster robo bay sounds sexy, but honnestly it's useless for any timing push your opponent does. It's only worth it if he decides to play the macro game ( expo later than you ) which means that a delayed 2nd gas is not that critical. You can take the 2nd, 3rd and 4th gas all at once faster than him anyway. - DT into chargelot archon @ 10:00. This is REALLY strong, and will probably kill you unless you get a colossus out. - 1 base 2 colossus timing @ 9:00 - 10:00. Also pretty tough, but possible to defend by chronoing immortals. As this is what I've had trouble with, that is what my build was designed for. You need the robo immediately for a fast observer and colossus in this case, and you will be behind their tech already, so you need gas asap. I think, basically, that we are saying the same thing from different perspectives: Your perspective is that the 8 minute timing is your default scenario, and you will adapt to the colossus or DT> I'm working from the assumption of a longer game, and "reacting" to the 8 minute aggression if I scout it. We both have the same conclusion: if they are attacking now, get more gates, sooner. If they are going for archon or colossus push, get gas and fast tech. So I think we agree =D -- Now some food for thought: what I'm going to say is valid for any of our variants, even your 2 gates: - if at the 6:30 poke you see an immortal, I believe it's possible to hold any immortal timing push by doing the following: take a fast 2nd gas, make up to 4 gateways + warp sentries, park your army somewhere on the map, wait until he moves out. By the time he arrives in your natural, save all your probes and sacrifice the nat's nexus. FF your ramp, warp some more sentries, and meanwhile counter him in his main. You'll even have your 4 gates for reinforcements ( more sentries warpins ), an immortal out, and your whole army killing his main. Interesting, but I don't think it's necessary to base trade. immortal timings are terrible against this, as it takes him forever to move across the map. you will just warp in zealots 4 at a time and destroy him. MAYBE if he does a 2 immortal prism drop with 4 warpgates, with a simultaneous push at the front... but this is pretty wacky. It's just good positioning, scouting, and micro vs any robo play I think. - if at the 6:30 poke you spot phoenixes ( or phoenixes scout/harass you before that timing ), cancel the robo and drop a total of 6 gates. They should be ready by the time he attacks. Cut probes around 30 and warp as many zealots/stalkers as you can. I'd advise to not take the 2nd gas in this case. Phoenixes cost 150/100, they're not cost effective to lift zealots/stalkers if that's all you have. The main idea is to flood him in quantity/reinforcements. If his phoenixes harass your probes, he's using his energy for lifting them, which means he probably won't do a timing push but an expo ( or his push will be delayed ). In this case I'd consider chronoing probes, making a twilight and going for a blink timing push. Yeah, I think the trick with phoenix is to ATTACK, hard and fast, with as many gateways as possible. The thing about phoenix is, unlike muta, they don't actually pin you with their harassment. With muta you can base race and kill all the probes and pylons, then come back to help with the fight. For phoenix, the number of units they can attack is capped - so every probe they kill is one less attacking unit they can lift; plus they can't attack buildings. Phoenix will also mean their sentry count is low, so you can just 6 gate all in. Cool stuff all around! I'll do some more tests with 2 vs 3 vs 4 gates and see what I come up with. I agree the 1 stalker 3 gate feels really weird... I just don't like leaving that 2nd gateway idle randomly... Thanks, and more to come! | ||
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quillian
United States318 Posts
On June 01 2012 19:01 Sated wrote: I've been using 2gate openings like this in PvT for ages. I usually go 3 Stalker Rush -> Expand rather than 5 Stalker Rush -> Expand so that I can get the Nexus down earlier, but this actually seems like it would be better because it would enable me to put a load of pressure on 1rax gasless expansions (solving the problems I have against gasless openings using my current 3 Stalker Rush -> Expand builds) and it would also allow me to have an even stronger defence against the 2rax pressure builds that caused me to look into 2gate PvT openings in the first place. I'm definitely going to have to try this out in PvT :D More on topic: I wonder how this would work with the DT expand style, since I've fallen in love with that opening so much recently. You'd probably need to take an earlier second gas, which would probably mess with the timings too much..? PvT this seems too slow, they will just add bunkers and have a faster economy. It would probably be quite effective at lower leagues though. I have some games vs DT expand. You can get an observer out in time, and your nexus is faster. as long as you hold the archon zealot all in with a colossus and good positioning you are golden. | ||
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MateShade
Australia736 Posts
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quillian
United States318 Posts
On June 02 2012 00:35 MateShade wrote: Yeah nice guide but you should use the Korean 2gate expand instead and just alter the guide accordingly. I can't really see any realistic benefits in these builds over oz and partings 2gate do you have reps/vods for this? we are all looking for them. I'd love to know oz's timings. Nyast: Testing 3 early gates. If you just do a 3 stalker rush (skip 4 and 5) you can get a 3rd gate and warpgate up much sooner, plus earlier expo. I am even cutting fewer probes... I can hit with 7 units at 6:00, you attack right as your 3rd and 4th stalker arrive at their ramp, so it's pretty much as fast as possible. I haven't figured out where to fit the robo with this build yet, however. I can get it around 6:20 right after the first warpins, but this will delay the second round a bit. I think I really like this overall, though, it seems to flow very nicely. working build: 9 pylon 10 probe* 12 probe* 13 gateway 14 assimilator > transfer 3 15 probe* 16 pylon 17 cybernetics core 18 zealot 20 probe 21 gateway 22 warpgate**** 22 stalker 25 pylon 26 stalker [2] 31 gateway - send probe to proxy 32 nexus 32 pylon PROXY 34 transform to warpgate [3] 34 zealot 36 stalker [2] - pylon - in base, or 2nd proxy at their ramp. - robotics facility and 2nd gas, or more warp ins to continue attack. | ||
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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quillian
United States318 Posts
I didn't mean that I was wondering how it would work out against a DT Expand, I meant that I was wondering how it would work if you teched up to DTs after expanding i.e. what time would you be able to get DTs out by if you went for this kind of opening. Ohh yeah I am wondering that myself. The thing is you really need a robo to defend DT's and stalker allins... dark shrine takes forever to build as well. maybe as a follow up instead of colossus, but I've yet to test that at all. | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20275 Posts
You should get 1 zealot, 5 stalkers, 4 gates, and warpgate by 6:00. Not gonna do shit when i can have 1 zealot and 2 stalkers at your base in time to warp, and then warp AGAIN before 6:00. You are looking at 1z2s, warp, 1z6s, warp, 4z7s at that timing. If the opening doesnt die, and has money for 4 stalkers the moment warpgate completes, it will be a micro battle, but it seems build order loss if you fail to prevent pylons going up. | ||
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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Nyast
Belgium554 Posts
On June 02 2012 01:47 Cyro wrote: When i 4gate i have a zealot, two stalkers, and four gates finished with warpgate research finishing at 5:22 to 5:28ish depending on map, with pylons already done either in your main or at your ramp. Not gonna do shit when i can have 1 zealot and 2 stalkers at your base in time to warp, and then warp AGAIN before 6:00. You are looking at 1z2s, warp, 1z6s, warp, 4z7s at that timing. If the opening doesnt die, and has money for 4 stalkers the moment warpgate completes, it will be a micro battle, but it seems build order loss if you fail to prevent pylons going up. Your second stalker won't arrive in time as reinforcement at this timing though ( you warp around 5'40 ). It's also not unrealistic to expect that with our 1 zealot and 3 stalkers we can deny close pylons and/or kill your first zealot and damage units that are warping. Your second warp in will happen a bit after 6'10, which is also the timing of our first warpin. Your second stalker will just arrive by that time, so with the first zealot ( hopefully ) killed it'll be 3z7s vs 3z7s: this becomes a micro battle, with a slight eco advantage ( 2 to 3 probes ) to us. I think that should prove that a very agressive 4 gate is at least holdable on equal grounds. | ||
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tehemperorer
United States2183 Posts
On June 01 2012 18:42 Nyast wrote: If I scout an early cannon/forge, my standard reaction is usually to go 4 gate warp prism. It'll hit between 6' and 6'30 ( around 6' if proxied ) with 8 units. It sounds like it'd be an auto win versus your build. That's pretty early, but the build is not an FFE. Keep an open mind for a sec (even though the build could be a pile of shit, try and think about this and let me know what you think): The build is this: 9pylon 12gate 14gas 15gate 16core 18pylon The pylon, core, and 2nd gate all finish at the same time... you pull all probes off gas at 100 gas to get max mineral gathering. You do get more minerals than a 4gate by the time a 4gate hits by the way, about 200 more minerals total mined. - The twin stalkers finish at 4:15, when you make them you are up to 22 food 2 probes <-- one by one put back in geyser plus 1 that is already mining, start Warpgate when you have 50 gas... thats 17 on minerals and 3 on gas 23/24 forge (this can be delayed, when the cannons go down is dependent only on a future pylon's placement time, not the forge placement time 24 Nexus 24 pylon <--- this determines cannon finish time, this is placed at ramp to natural 24 cannon cannon cannon cb warpgate can make 5 probes here can make 2 zealots here The twin stalkers beat 1z 1s pokes, but they don't beat 3 stalkers or 1z 2s... too bad the cannons are up by the time that 3rd unit makes it to your base (tested on Ohana LE) at 5:45 I have 2 stalkers (out on the map to deny 1z 1s pokes and early pylon placements, but back in base by 5:30), 3 cannons finish exactly at the time a 4gate warps in the 4 stalkers (so travel time from pylon to natural ramp allows for leeway in cannon placement) at 6:30 my 2 zealots are out and warpgate is almost done, so against 6s 5z I have 2z 2s and 3cannons. I add two more gates and warp two sentries (i have money for stalkers but prefer sentries and probes) in case of a delayed hard push. I then 6gate... the idea is that a 6gate off of (relatively)FE: -6gate comes before 2 colossus if col late, or overwhelms 2 colossus since rushed 2 coloss has few units -6gate beats any attempt to expand by enemy -6gate doesn't lose to DT cause of cannons, though 6gate requires additional tech -6gate beats any phoenix play (just push) -6gate beats any phoenix/immortal play off of 1 base (go zeal heavy) -6gate beats non-colossus robo play If you don't want to push, you can defend with 4gates and tech, adding gateways later. After practicing the build against masters opponents (currently playing mid-high masters but don't play ladder as often I would like), I will state honestly the problems I've run into below, with some ideas on how to fix: -proxy 2 gate: my build didn't handle the scouting of this well, despite having 2 gates to be able to repel... the mineral timing is pretty tight for the build and, more importantly, the 3rd pylon placed to allow for stalkers to pop when core is done is so late that you are at 18/18 food banking money for stalkers when zeals get in your base (depending on how close the proxy was), that's a problem -cannon rush: like a fool I lost to this because of poor management. Cannon rushing is not a problem with this build, it's me the player. I usually do better but again, I don't play that much anymore so I'm rusty. -sentries: I had a shitload of units at 12 minutes, and went to push on Shakuras. I usually have the same amount of units at 10 minutes, but fought off (easily, no damage was done) a blink transition. However, like a fool I bum rushed up the ramp and lost after a long fight across several warp-ins (despite the enemy having about 5 sentries at his natural plus a young expansion, I almost won... the sentries are a problem so maybe WP to accompany the 6gate?). I'm not convinced the 6gate off of this build can handle sentries since it comes when an opponent has already had an expansion for a few minutes. I totally understand skepticism, and sometimes question why I waste my time trying to come up with a pvp FE build but I think its worth my time at this point still. To be honest the only thing that really worries me is a wp 4gate, but it comes too late if done on reaction I believe. Again, this all could be a pile of crap because it isn't tested extensively. If you open with WP 4gate it might be an autoloss for me, depends on the actual timing. | ||
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Nyast
Belgium554 Posts
On June 02 2012 03:01 tehemperorer wrote: I totally understand skepticism, and sometimes question why I waste my time trying to come up with a pvp FE build but I think its worth my time at this point still. To be honest the only thing that really worries me is a wp 4gate, but it comes too late if done on reaction I believe. Again, this all could be a pile of crap because it isn't tested extensively. If you open with WP 4gate it might be an autoloss for me, depends on the actual timing. The good thing is that you get two very early stalkers, before you drop forge, so you have map control. This makes your build less likely to be scouted. However, your nexus and cannons are pretty early, so it's very possible that a second scout will let the cat out of the bag if your stalkers are out of pos ( and if they're not, it'll be suspicious that they're at the natural's ramp/choke ). I'd like to see a replay though, it's hard to say if a reactive robo would be too late or not. The good news is that a reactive proxy robo is extremely unlikely, so this adds another 30s for the prism to cross the map: I suspect we're looking at a 7' timing here. Are your 6 gates finished by that time ? What about robo blink ? This is another typical reaction that would make me worry. This comes a bit later, after 8', but you need to have an immortal done by that time or you're in a world of trouble. To get an immortal done at that time, you need to drop your robo around 6'. Is that something you do in your build ? And what about somebody that goes for fast blink ( 7' ) and just.. blinks past your 3 cannons/small army and goes into your base ? He may even construct a pylon at the cliff ( but out of range of the cannons ) for reinforcements. You could also get into trouble with prism double-immortals harassment. The thing is that compared to the build Quillian and I are working on, you're very defensive in the early stage of the game. A forge and 3 cannons cost 600 minerals. If we scout your early expo, we could as well safely early expo as fast ( slightly behind you ), but with faster tech and no cannon, and you won't have enough units/army to punish it. We'll chrono probes like mad while you're in the dark and feel threatened and have to cut probes. | ||
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tehemperorer
United States2183 Posts
The good thing is that you get two very early stalkers, before you drop forge, so you have map control. This makes your build less likely to be scouted. However, your nexus and cannons are pretty early, so it's very possible that a second scout will let the cat out of the bag if your stalkers are out of pos ( and if they're not, it'll be suspicious that they're at the natural's ramp/choke ). I'd like to see a replay though, it's hard to say if a reactive robo would be too late or not. The good news is that a reactive proxy robo is extremely unlikely, so this adds another 30s for the prism to cross the map: I suspect we're looking at a 7' timing here. Are your 6 gates finished by that time ? -True about scout, 2nd scout or stalkers at nat are signs of something... -No, only 4gates are done by 7', and I think at that time I have 2z 2s 2sent (2sentries can be stalker but in practice I've only warped sentries)... Could be tough fight but not sure it's an autoloss What about robo blink ? This is another typical reaction that would make me worry. This comes a bit later, after 8', but you need to have an immortal done by that time or you're in a world of trouble. To get an immortal done at that time, you need to drop your robo around 6'. Is that something you do in your build ? No robo for me in the build that early. So far I have approached my build trying to handle all tech from the other player with higher numbers of gateway units at a critical point in time. In the Shakuras game I handled a robo blink pretty easily it seemed; I remember his blink up with his stalkers and me thinking "that's it?". Since I don't get tech I am just warping gateway units from 6' on to 10' in addition to getting probes+pylons. The idea is to hit with high gateway units before tech structures AND an additional nexus kicks in for opponent. Of course further testing is needed, but I'm comfortable with the opponent doing robo blink. And what about somebody that goes for fast blink ( 7' ) and just.. blinks past your 3 cannons/small army and goes into your base ? He may even construct a pylon at the cliff ( but out of range of the cannons ) for reinforcements. The biggest concern I had when constructing the build was the enemy by any means getting past the cannons without engaging them. If he doesn't have an obs, he will blink up and get caught by the sentries/cannons I'm pretty sure; like I said from when WG tech is done (in the late 6th minute). I have to look (sorry for the lack of info) but I think at mid 7' I have 4gates and econ to support while the opponent doesn't have as much if doing fast blink. I also have 2 nexus for cb'ing gates so given everything is even, I pull ahead anyway. Gotta check though You could also get into trouble with prism double-immortals harassment. I'm not sure the timing of this, I think it's around 8 or 9, but I way outnumber the opponent by that time, assuming he didn't FE (I feel like I can leave units at home and just push at 10'; gotta check) The thing is that compared to the build Quillian and I are working on, you're very defensive in the early stage of the game. A forge and 3 cannons cost 600 minerals. If we scout your early expo, we could as well safely early expo as fast ( slightly behind you ), but with faster tech and no cannon, and you won't have enough units/army to punish it. We'll chrono probes like mad while you're in the dark and feel threatened and have to cut probes. Very true. I think a strong counter to this build is actually a proper PvP FE like you dudes are doing. It seems that while mine might be safer than yours, yours can specifically exploit the strong defense and pull ahead while remaining maybe only a slight less safe. Hmm... I take another look at yours now and compare; yours just might be worth going with given the differences. EDIT: You know what really bugs me reading and writing all this? There are so few Protoss out there who want to explore and practice PvP builds that it's hard to even get going on something you think might work! | ||
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quillian
United States318 Posts
When i 4gate i have a zealot, two stalkers, and four gates finished with warpgate research finishing at 5:22 to 5:28ish depending on map, with pylons already done either in your main or at your ramp. Not gonna do shit when i can have 1 zealot and 2 stalkers at your base in time to warp, and then warp AGAIN before 6:00. You are looking at 1z2s, warp, 1z6s, warp, 4z7s at that timing. If the opening doesnt die, and has money for 4 stalkers the moment warpgate completes, it will be a micro battle, but it seems build order loss if you fail to prevent pylons going up. Traditional 4 gate just isn't a problem. it builds units out of 1 gateway while we are building out of 2, and will not have enough units to overwhelm before our warpgates are up. For you to warp in at 5:30 you have to be moving out to build your pylons very early, which I am going to scout with my 1 zealot 3 stalkers. I will simply not build the nexus and add gateways. In my current variation I chronoboost warpgate 4 times, so I will be at most 10-15 second behind you, unless you are 10 gating. I'm happy to test it with you if you like, I need the practice. That said, something like the 2 gate into 4 gate variation I posted can get a lot more units than a normal 4 gate, and hit after the expansion is already most of the way done. something like 12 gate > zealot + 3 stalker rush > 4 gates with 4-5 chrono on warpgate can be scary strong. Tehemporer: I am clearly interested in experimenting. I just don't think cannons are the solution-- immortals and warp prism are too good against it, and like nyast said it's impossible to punish greedy play. If you you have a build you think works test it and start another thread. This isn't really the place for pvp forge FE discussion though. | ||
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ineversmile
United States583 Posts
On June 02 2012 04:37 tehemperorer wrote:EDIT: You know what really bugs me reading and writing all this? There are so few Protoss out there who want to explore and practice PvP builds that it's hard to even get going on something you think might work! I think a lot more players would like to play FE builds in PvP if it just wasn't so difficult to make that work. Such a volatile match-up with such ridiculous tech paths makes for a serious challenge to macro play. But eventually, there will be an industry standard for FE in the match-up and I don't think we're that far away right now. Personally, I haven't contributed to this thread yet because I don't like the 3 Stalker Rush. I think it's better to just 1gate Robo, boost an Immortal ASAP, and then take the Nexus after the 4gate timing window, as my obs is rolling into my opponent's base and I see everything. | ||
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tehemperorer
United States2183 Posts
On June 02 2012 05:07 quillian wrote: Traditional 4 gate just isn't a problem. it builds units out of 1 gateway while we are building out of 2, and will not have enough units to overwhelm before our warpgates are up. For you to warp in at 5:30 you have to be moving out to build your pylons very early, which I am going to scout with my 1 zealot 3 stalkers. I will simply not build the nexus and add gateways. In my current variation I chronoboost warpgate 4 times, so I will be at most 10-15 second behind you, unless you are 10 gating. I'm happy to test it with you if you like, I need the practice. That said, something like the 2 gate into 4 gate variation I posted can get a lot more units than a normal 4 gate, and hit after the expansion is already most of the way done. something like 12 gate > zealot + 3 stalker rush > 4 gates with 4-5 chrono on warpgate can be scary strong. Tehemporer: I am clearly interested in experimenting. I just don't think cannons are the solution-- immortals and warp prism are too good against it, and like nyast said it's impossible to punish greedy play. If you you have a build you think works test it and start another thread. This isn't really the place for pvp forge FE discussion though. You are correct this is not the place for Forge related FEs in PvP; I was going to make another thread but my build is too undeveloped to even bother. I posted that short thing then responded to some good points, and if it didn't help you, you will be glad to know it did help me. I am almost on your side in thinking that cannons are not the answer, but the one thing that keeps me from jumping off the fence onto your side is something that bothers me that you hinted on in your above paragraph: "you will simply not build the nexus." To me, that is the last option to be explored when all other options have gone out the window since the ideal build we are looking for allows you to expand and hold off aggression, instead of looking to expand but finding aggression and matching it with the right amount of gates instead of expanding. I don't see how you do that without having cannons. Cannons clearly achieve the safety for a nexus; the only thing that is bad about them is that the enemy can exploit their immobility by WP or by blink/obs, but that's not a reason to throw cannons out the window. I get back to you when I have more | ||
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-stOpSKY-
Canada498 Posts
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MateShade
Australia736 Posts
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
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