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I'm not actually sure where I could find a replay but parting did a bit of a greedier variation in the latest day9 daily (came out today I think). It's basically a 3 stalker rush with the second gas at 19 and 3 guys in gas. In this game, parting waits for warp gate to warp in 2 sentries, but usually you'd make 2 sentries out of the gateway first then warp 2 more in. Day9 talks a little about timings
Cool, I'll check it out! I'm dubious about relying on more than 2 sentries, though. On any map where the natural doesn't have a small ramp they are useless. I prefer to get lots of zealots and fast tech to something more useful in a fight.
As already said, a 6:00 4-gate's first warpin is very very late (at that point you've probably lost against most builds anyway). It's more like 5:30, 5:40 to be realistic.
Current iteration of the build spends 4 chrono on warpgate, and has 3 gates at 5:40. 4 gate is not a problem for this build unless you royally screw up.
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On June 02 2012 16:08 quillian wrote:Show nested quote +I'm not actually sure where I could find a replay but parting did a bit of a greedier variation in the latest day9 daily (came out today I think). It's basically a 3 stalker rush with the second gas at 19 and 3 guys in gas. In this game, parting waits for warp gate to warp in 2 sentries, but usually you'd make 2 sentries out of the gateway first then warp 2 more in. Day9 talks a little about timings Cool, I'll check it out! I'm dubious about relying on more than 2 sentries, though. On any map where the natural doesn't have a small ramp they are useless. I prefer to get lots of zealots and fast tech to something more useful in a fight. Show nested quote +As already said, a 6:00 4-gate's first warpin is very very late (at that point you've probably lost against most builds anyway). It's more like 5:30, 5:40 to be realistic. Current iteration of the build spends 4 chrono on warpgate, and has 3 gates at 5:40. 4 gate is not a problem for this build unless you royally screw up.
I think the sentries are really necessary for holding early 1 base plays, and are particularly useful vs 4gate. I honestly don't see how someone with equal micro and a perfect 4gate could lose to you with your current build unless they make a mistake, hence why the sentries are necessary. Still, go searching for the korean build, draw some comparisons and decide for yourself what benefits and disadvantages each have, and see what others think about your conclusions
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United States8477 Posts
On June 02 2012 16:08 quillian wrote:Show nested quote +I'm not actually sure where I could find a replay but parting did a bit of a greedier variation in the latest day9 daily (came out today I think). It's basically a 3 stalker rush with the second gas at 19 and 3 guys in gas. In this game, parting waits for warp gate to warp in 2 sentries, but usually you'd make 2 sentries out of the gateway first then warp 2 more in. Day9 talks a little about timings Cool, I'll check it out! I'm dubious about relying on more than 2 sentries, though. On any map where the natural doesn't have a small ramp they are useless. I prefer to get lots of zealots and fast tech to something more useful in a fight. Show nested quote +As already said, a 6:00 4-gate's first warpin is very very late (at that point you've probably lost against most builds anyway). It's more like 5:30, 5:40 to be realistic. Current iteration of the build spends 4 chrono on warpgate, and has 3 gates at 5:40. 4 gate is not a problem for this build unless you royally screw up.
Sentries are very important in defending all-ins on any map with a choke in the natural. They are one of the reasons FE is possible in PvP and why they've been getting more popular later. I'll dig up some vods of korean 2 gate FE when I'm free next. I've been using it a lot and actually started writing a guide about it before getting bored.
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On June 02 2012 05:07 quillian wrote:
In my current variation I chronoboost warpgate 4 times, so I will be at most 10-15 second behind you, unless you are 10 gating. I'm happy to test it with you if you like, I need the practice.
What is your current variation against 4 gates ?
If you chrono 4 times warp and still produce stalkers 4 and 5 out of the 2 early gates, they won't complete in sync with warp, you'll have to wait for a while before they finish so that you can transform those 2 gates into warpgates. So the faster warp is being useless.
There's another variant, which I suspect is what you're speaking of, where you delay stalkers 2 and 3 to drop the 2 additional gates ( 4'35 ), and then produce them. The timings all sync up nicely: your warp finishes at 5'40 just in time for stalkers 2 and 3 and the gates 3 and 4 to complete. Then you transform your 4 gates into warpgates, so at 5'50 you're ready to warp in 4 stalkers ( or 3 stalkers and 1 zealot ). That gives 1-2 more units compared to the 4-gater.
The problem with that build is that you stay on 1 zealot, 1 stalker until 5'40, so there's no way to deny pylons. But you should still be in an okay position, with 1 more unit and a couple more probes than the 4 gater. Is that what you're speaking about ?
I currently do not know any variant that gets you 1z 5st and warp done at 5'40 with 4 gates idle. I doubt it's possible.
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On June 02 2012 00:27 quillian wrote:
Right, there are a variety of 6 to 8 minute 1 base all ins we have to hold, namely:
- 4 gate (holds)
- 3gate robo (holds)
- blink (seems to hold, barely)
- phoenix (might hold if we cut robo and get gates faster)
However, there are also a few attacks that hit slightly later, but with more punch, as you hint at:
- DT into chargelot archon @ 10:00. This is REALLY strong, and will probably kill you unless you get a colossus out.
- 1 base 2 colossus timing @ 9:00 - 10:00. Also pretty tough, but possible to defend by chronoing immortals.
As this is what I've had trouble with, that is what my build was designed for. You need the robo immediately for a fast observer and colossus in this case, and you will be behind their tech already, so you need gas asap.
I do not totally agree with you here. In my view:
- 4 gate: holds
- 3 gate robo: I'm not convinced that it holds. Especially the 1 gate robo into a total of 4-5 gates ( strong timing push ).
- blink: I agree it should barely hold
- phoenix: yeah, should hold if scouted in time
- DT into charge/archons: on most maps it's possible to full-wall the natural, which makes the chargelots completely useless. This is my standard response to charge/archons when I'm ahead. There may be some maps on which it's not possible to wall, in that case I agree it must be tough.
- 2 colossi timing: immortals should indeed do well, but I think the most important part is to just flood him with units. 6+ gates should really help.
For these 2 last builds, I don't see what you gain from going colossi yourself. You're not gonna get 2 colossi out in time, and no range either. You can have a single colossus without range, but it'll get owned by stalkers/immortals. I feel like going to 6 gates, maybe with blink, is a better response.
However, if your opponent's answer is to get his own expo, then by all means, go colossi as fast as you can. Hell, go double or triple robo asap 
On June 02 2012 00:27 quillian wrote:
I think, basically, that we are saying the same thing from different perspectives:
Your perspective is that the 8 minute timing is your default scenario, and you will adapt to the colossus or DT>
I'm working from the assumption of a longer game, and "reacting" to the 8 minute aggression if I scout it.
Yep, you nailed it. I'm more worried about the 8' timings than the later ones. Do you have more replays vs those timings ? I'd really like to see how you hold. Maybe I'm over-estimating those pushes ?
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On June 02 2012 16:15 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2012 16:08 quillian wrote:I'm not actually sure where I could find a replay but parting did a bit of a greedier variation in the latest day9 daily (came out today I think). It's basically a 3 stalker rush with the second gas at 19 and 3 guys in gas. In this game, parting waits for warp gate to warp in 2 sentries, but usually you'd make 2 sentries out of the gateway first then warp 2 more in. Day9 talks a little about timings Cool, I'll check it out! I'm dubious about relying on more than 2 sentries, though. On any map where the natural doesn't have a small ramp they are useless. I prefer to get lots of zealots and fast tech to something more useful in a fight. As already said, a 6:00 4-gate's first warpin is very very late (at that point you've probably lost against most builds anyway). It's more like 5:30, 5:40 to be realistic. Current iteration of the build spends 4 chrono on warpgate, and has 3 gates at 5:40. 4 gate is not a problem for this build unless you royally screw up. Sentries are very important in defending all-ins on any map with a choke in the natural. They are one of the reasons FE is possible in PvP and why they've been getting more popular later. I'll dig up some vods of korean 2 gate FE when I'm free next. I've been using it a lot and actually started writing a guide about it before getting bored.
I'm so excited about that guide!
Your guides are the best <3
NRGMonk whaiting!!
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Here's a replay of me doing the 2 gate FE versus fast DTs expo. As I force a cancel of his expo ( while mine is at 50% ), he goes all-in with a chargelots/archons 10' timing push:
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-264391.jpg)
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Hey all, i can confirm that this works BEAUTIFULLY. As for the transitions, i'm not so sure. I basically transitioned into a 4gate robo +1/+1 blink immortal timing push, with warp prism harass etc
I'm a top gold zerg who has never played protoss, but i tried it out and beat a plat toss.
Here's the replay: http://drop.sc/190427
I haven't watched it, but basically i have SO many units when his 4gate hits that even though i forgot to morph to warp gate (lol again, im z not p), i crushed his attack, killed the pylon, and transitioned.
I'm thinking that instead of warping in zlots to harass i should pick do an immortal drop and blink into his main... any thoughts? I have no experience how PvP usually plays out, except for a few games i've seen casted.
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On June 02 2012 05:07 quillian wrote:
In my current variation I chronoboost warpgate 4 times, so I will be at most 10-15 second behind you, unless you are 10 gating. I'm happy to test it with you if you like, I need the practice.
I would love to test my 10 gate against this. BronzeKnee.303 NA
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sweet game nyast! I'll put it in the guide.
So, I've been trying the 3 gate thing you suggested more, and I kind of like it. Basically I get the 1z 3st normally, "skip" stalker 3 & 4, instead adding 3rd gate at 31 and chronoing warpgate 4 times. This lets me hit at the normal time a super fast 4 gate would (~5:40) with 2z 5 stalker. At that point you decide whether to continue the push by warping in 3 more units, or build a robo.
It doesn't feel as "clean" to me as the 5 stalker rush, but I think technically you are getting stalker 4 & 5 to their base much sooner.
Since you like the warpgate aggression I thought you might enjoy this variation, as it puts on a ton of pressure quite early even while expanding.
Also updated video link in the guide. be warned, this is crappy play from early testing (first few games)
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United States8477 Posts
On June 03 2012 03:04 MetaCry wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2012 16:15 NrGmonk wrote:On June 02 2012 16:08 quillian wrote:I'm not actually sure where I could find a replay but parting did a bit of a greedier variation in the latest day9 daily (came out today I think). It's basically a 3 stalker rush with the second gas at 19 and 3 guys in gas. In this game, parting waits for warp gate to warp in 2 sentries, but usually you'd make 2 sentries out of the gateway first then warp 2 more in. Day9 talks a little about timings Cool, I'll check it out! I'm dubious about relying on more than 2 sentries, though. On any map where the natural doesn't have a small ramp they are useless. I prefer to get lots of zealots and fast tech to something more useful in a fight. As already said, a 6:00 4-gate's first warpin is very very late (at that point you've probably lost against most builds anyway). It's more like 5:30, 5:40 to be realistic. Current iteration of the build spends 4 chrono on warpgate, and has 3 gates at 5:40. 4 gate is not a problem for this build unless you royally screw up. Sentries are very important in defending all-ins on any map with a choke in the natural. They are one of the reasons FE is possible in PvP and why they've been getting more popular later. I'll dig up some vods of korean 2 gate FE when I'm free next. I've been using it a lot and actually started writing a guide about it before getting bored. I'm so excited about that guide! Your guides are the best <3 NRGMonk whaiting!!
Don't get your hopes up. I don't ever plan on ever finishing this guide as I'm too busy with other stuffs. But as promised, here are the vods of the build off the top of my head. I've actually been using this build before it was shown in the GSL, because I modified a version of a 2 gate expand that Sase used to do. You can ask me questions about it if you'd like. Basically the build is:
Open standard 3 stalker rush
Make 2 sentries right after the 3 stalkers.
Make a nexus, around 5:40ish i think.
Warp in 2 sentries
Add a robotics
Add a 3rd gateway
Make an immortal out of your robo
Defend stuff
Oz vs Inca on Antiga Shipyards @ GSL 2012 Season 1
First instance of the build used
Parting vs Oz on Daybreak Game 3 @ MLG Winter Championship
Huk vs Parting on Entombed Valley Game 3 @ MLG Spring Arena 1
Huk does this but misreads, plays too greedy, and loses to colossi all-in
Oz vs Squirtle on Antiga Shipyards Game 2 @ GSL 2012 #2
Slight innovation to the build, getting faster robo and delayed sentries # 3 and 4. I like this version a lot.
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On June 03 2012 14:34 quillian wrote:
So, I've been trying the 3 gate thing you suggested more, and I kind of like it. Basically I get the 1z 3st normally, "skip" stalker 3 & 4, instead adding 3rd gate at 31 and chronoing warpgate 4 times. This lets me hit at the normal time a super fast 4 gate would (~5:40) with 2z 5 stalker. At that point you decide whether to continue the push by warping in 3 more units, or build a robo.
It doesn't feel as "clean" to me as the 5 stalker rush, but I think technically you are getting stalker 4 & 5 to their base much sooner.
Yeah, you can do a lot more damage with 2z 5s going in his main around 6' than 3z 5s poking at 6'30-7'.
Speaking of variations, I've found another one, based off your 2 gates, that you're going to love.
It plays around with the construction order to get the expo down at exactly 5'. That's 40s earlier than normally, and it gets the same amount of units at 6' ( 3z, 5st ):
Here's how it goes:
- early build unchanged, you do 1z 3st out of your 2 first gates
- you stay at 22 probes and 30/34 just after you've queued up your stalkers 2 and 3. This lets you accumulate minerals.
- at 5', you put your nexus down
- immediately after you queue up stalkers 4 and 5, you're now at 34/34
- pylon near opponent's base, warp finishes at 6', warp 2 zealots and immediately drop a robo ( robo should go down around 6'10 ).
Note: stalkers 4 and 5 are in the middle of the map when you warp, so either you wait until they arrive, either you poke immediately
Chronos: 3 chronos on probes as usual, then you need to reserve 2 chronos for stalkers 4 and 5, the rest goes to warp ( 2 times if I count well ).
Downsides: you stay at 22 probes for a long time, you resume probes production around 6'. If you don't mind one less stalker, you can cut stalker 5th, chrono warp 3 times instead of 2 and continue probe production a lot earlier and warp that stalker instead of a zealot. That'll give you 2z 5st for the poke.
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I wonder how would it work vs a 1base phoenix-immortal allin...anything about that?
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On June 03 2012 23:48 eusoc wrote:
I wonder how would it work vs a 1base phoenix-immortal allin...anything about that?
I haven't played against phoenix immortal, but here's one game against 1 gate stargate into 4 gates all-in:
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-264434.jpg)
That's my new 2 gates variant with FE at 5'. The robo ended up useless. It was a pretty tough fight, mostly because I got supply blocked at the moment he went out of his base to attack, so I had less units than I should have when his push came. His FF were also damn annoying. Still, despite all of that, you can hold as long as you pull the natural's probes ( and I still had the lead in eco ).
Here's another replay, same build but this time versus 2 gate robo into expo:
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-264436.jpg)
That game wasn't even close. He must probably have got the surprise of his life when his observer reached my natural at 8' and he saw my expo was already saturated :p Game then turns into colo wars with a big advantage for me ( triple robo for the win ).
One thing I really like with that build is that it's really threatening. At the first scout, he'll see you didn't take your second gas, and all pointers lead to a 4 gate ( besides the 3rd chrono on probes, but it could be a delayed 4 gate ). This forces most players to make sentries or fast immortals instead of teching too fast. Then they see you coming on the map with a zealot and stalker, placing a pylon, and there comes a push with a decent little number of units. I guess most players would think of a 3 or 4 gate agressive push when it's a damn fast expo.
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You need to upload replays of this against high level pvp builds. Ones that are executed correctly and on time, not of an off racing gold leaguer. I don't mean any disrespect to him but I thought this forum had pretty strict guidelines that say you have to know what you're talking about when you write a guide. You haven't shown that this build is solid against any well executed 1 base plays
Edit:typo
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You briefly address the possible counter of 1 base 2 colo push (which you say can be held though I am not so sure), but what about the big push with gate units, 2 immortals and 1 colossus that we see often from players like naniwa? How could you possibly hold this off?
Also you should be careful about recommending people to go triple robo colossus. On two base this means literally all your gas is going towards colossi and if your opponent builds void rays you 100% auto lose
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Thanks monk!
I've added a rough sketch of Oz's build to the guide, along with the link to the OZ Parting game. I will give this variation a shot as well, though I feel like 4 sentries on a map like daybreak is an over-investment due to the two ramps. On ohana or shakuras it makes perfect sense though, and I will probably use this build.
Watching your games now nyast, thanks again!
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Awesome stuff! Even tho it will easily loose to 4 gate blink or colossi all ins it should be possible to defend it but verry hard (like the old 1/1/1)
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United States8477 Posts
On June 04 2012 01:42 quillian wrote:Thanks monk! I've added a rough sketch of Oz's build to the guide, along with the link to the OZ Parting game. I will give this variation a shot as well, though I feel like 4 sentries on a map like daybreak is an over-investment due to the two ramps. On ohana or shakuras it makes perfect sense though, and I will probably use this build. Watching your games now nyast, thanks again!
On the contrary, imo you need 4 sentries on maps like Daybreak because it has a big ramp. There's no other viable way to defend against things like random gateway or immortal pushes.
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Hmm..for lategame pvp, after getting a huge lead from this build, should I go for colo or immortals? I'm a Protoss noob, but I thought colo were only good against zealots and sentries...
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EPT
