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On June 01 2012 20:01 nick_ashwell wrote:Hi Filter Thanks for taking to time to produce such an excellent guide on fundamentals of game play. I have only got as far as obtaining the metrics for episode 4 so far. However these days, I have been playing since the games launch, I am finding the ladder system is not working very well. I have played against bronze league players who are better than some of the gold league players that I have played against. Not sure why this is the case, I play on the european servers so perhaps it is different on the US servers. Do you or anyone else reading this experience the same problems? Once again thanks for your excellent guide it has certainly improved my play but so far I am just not seeing any rewards for all my hard work  Nick
Yes... also on EU. Sometimes you find some people from Bronze that are on the way up to Silver or even Gold and some from Gold that are on the way down and therefor play even worse than the ones from Bronze on their way up.
The ladder system is really strange at times though. I'm in Silver and when I have a small win streak against other silvers, I suddenly get Bronze opponents. That one digs out some strange cheese that I don't hold and poof, all the hard earned points (in MMR) from the wins against silver are gone (probably).
The other way around I have it too. Losing a few games in a row and suddenly being matched against Gold.
I have absolutely no idea where I stand, on the way up to Gold or down to Bronze. I'm really thinking about skipping the next season to reset my MMR.
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On June 01 2012 20:42 BurningRanger wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2012 20:01 nick_ashwell wrote:Hi Filter Thanks for taking to time to produce such an excellent guide on fundamentals of game play. I have only got as far as obtaining the metrics for episode 4 so far. However these days, I have been playing since the games launch, I am finding the ladder system is not working very well. I have played against bronze league players who are better than some of the gold league players that I have played against. Not sure why this is the case, I play on the european servers so perhaps it is different on the US servers. Do you or anyone else reading this experience the same problems? Once again thanks for your excellent guide it has certainly improved my play but so far I am just not seeing any rewards for all my hard work Nick Yes... also on EU. Sometimes you find some people from Bronze that are on the way up to Silver or even Gold and some from Gold that are on the way down and therefor play even worse than the ones from Bronze on their way up. The ladder system is really strange at times though. I'm in Silver and when I have a small win streak against other silvers, I suddenly get Bronze opponents. That one digs out some strange cheese that I don't hold and poof, all the hard earned points (in MMR) from the wins against silver are gone (probably). The other way around I have it too. Losing a few games in a row and suddenly being matched against Gold. I have absolutely no idea where I stand, on the way up to Gold or down to Bronze. I'm really thinking about skipping the next season to reset my MMR.
The thing about it is that the system waits until your MMR settles in a league to make a change. That's why it's possible to go straight to gold from bronze, for example. But if you get on a huge hot streak or cold streak, your MMR could still be moving so much in whatever direction that you (or in this case your opponents) remain in bronze officially, but with an MMR (and skill level) at a gold level.
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Just wanted to post some stats here about how my game has improved since watching these vids! When i first tried Zerg, i went 1-19 on the ladder! I just did not understand the race, did not know how to progress. So i gave up on them and went to Protoss, as personally i found them a lot easier to play. Since watching the Zerg vids, having benchmarks to hit, and focusing a lot on micro i have gone 29-7. Its amazing the turn around! Ive had a lot of shock about the amount of Roaches i can produce off 2 bases, and how hard they hit with +1/+1 and +2/+2 usually close to finishing when i attack!
When i have lost it has been to various things, mainly early all ins where i just could not recover. Those have been ling/bling busts and early rax mass marines! Im not too fused as i am developing my macro and mechanics! My APM has crept up from around 15/20 to 75+ now! However, it is mainly the late game transitions which i struggle with, so i am really looking forward to those vids! Currently sat 2nd in my league (bronze), top spot is very close and i am hopeful of promotion before Season 7 gets locked!
Massive thanks Filter!!!
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Just dropping by to say this is awesome!
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Filter, are you going to be doing a Protoss set of vids? While I understand the terran benchmarks can be applied to Toss mechanics, it would still be awesome to get the detail in your current vids.
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I've been following these tutorials for the past two days, and today, I played my first placement matches ever. I'm now a Platinum level Terran player.
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On June 01 2012 20:42 BurningRanger wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2012 20:01 nick_ashwell wrote:
I have played against bronze league players who are better than some of the gold league players that I have played against.
Yes... also on EU. Sometimes you find some people from Bronze that are on the way up to Silver or even Gold and some from Gold that are on the way down and therefor play even worse than the ones from Bronze on their way up. The ladder system is really strange at times though. I'm in Silver and when I have a small win streak against other silvers, I suddenly get Bronze opponents. That one digs out some strange cheese that I don't hold and poof, all the hard earned points (in MMR) from the wins against silver are gone (probably). The other way around I have it too. Losing a few games in a row and suddenly being matched against Gold. I have absolutely no idea where I stand, on the way up to Gold or down to Bronze. I'm really thinking about skipping the next season to reset my MMR.
I'm having the same experience (also on EU). Usually winning most games when I have to play vs silver and even gold, but still often losing the bronze players, particularly if they cheese/harass/all-in, which happens a lot more with the bronze I'm encountering than with the silver players I see. Winning against silver/gold starts getting me bronze players and the reverse.
If I watch the Filter videos I always wonder how it's possible his opponents seem so weak and play like lambs that are willingly going to the slaughter  I could really have used a video on "defending chess/harass/all-in" after the gold level videos. Now it feels that even with good execution of silver/gold benchmarks, I'm not going to get out of bronze until I've learned how to beat every cheese possible, sometimes the hard way.
One problem which I found is that I'm simply slower noticing things on the minimap, or pulling scv's etc. If Filter encounters this the way he deals with it at master level speed and response - even in the silver/bronze videos!
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On June 04 2012 02:50 Garf wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2012 20:42 BurningRanger wrote:On June 01 2012 20:01 nick_ashwell wrote:
I have played against bronze league players who are better than some of the gold league players that I have played against.
Yes... also on EU. Sometimes you find some people from Bronze that are on the way up to Silver or even Gold and some from Gold that are on the way down and therefor play even worse than the ones from Bronze on their way up. The ladder system is really strange at times though. I'm in Silver and when I have a small win streak against other silvers, I suddenly get Bronze opponents. That one digs out some strange cheese that I don't hold and poof, all the hard earned points (in MMR) from the wins against silver are gone (probably). The other way around I have it too. Losing a few games in a row and suddenly being matched against Gold. I have absolutely no idea where I stand, on the way up to Gold or down to Bronze. I'm really thinking about skipping the next season to reset my MMR. I'm having the same experience (also on EU). Usually winning most games when I have to play vs silver and even gold, but still often losing the bronze players, particularly if they cheese/harass/all-in, which happens a lot more with the bronze I'm encountering than with the silver players I see. Winning against silver/gold starts getting me bronze players and the reverse. If I watch the Filter videos I always wonder how it's possible his opponents seem so weak and play like lambs that are willingly going to the slaughter I could really have used a video on "defending chess/harass/all-in" after the gold level videos. Now it feels that even with good execution of silver/gold benchmarks, I'm not going to get out of bronze until I've learned how to beat every cheese possible, sometimes the hard way. One problem which I found is that I'm simply slower noticing things on the minimap, or pulling scv's etc. If Filter encounters this the way he deals with it at master level speed and response - even in the silver/bronze videos!
I'm actually not that great at dealing with some cheeses, even as Terran. That being said when it comes to picking up things on the minimap, I can handle that really well. I pretty much just stare down the minimap as I play, and even though I haven't covered it yet I get a lot of information from my overlords.
Some things just come with time, now when I see a probe I can pickup on proxy plays just based on the timing it gets to my base at and very small things like unit composition, expansion timings etc come very naturally for me.
In bronze, silver and even gold though you can't put any weight into what your opponent is doing. In masters if protoss hasn't expanded by the 5:30 mark I know I'll be eating a 4gate, blink all in, dt's or a void ray all in. In the lower leagues I have to simply ignore my gut for those things, and honestly it's pretty worthwhile for most people in those leagues to just ignore that stuff. The chances of a perfectly executed 4gate in silver are very, very, very low and in most cases you'll be able to get to the 8 minute mark with your backbone in place before any of that stuff even hits. But if you try to defend it with extra spines etc, you just get thrown off your own game when it's not needed yet.
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If your scouting information isn't perfect, it's a really good idea to get more bunkers. I don't know the best places to add them into the build, but starting a second bunker around 6:00 and a third around 8:00 sounds about right to hold off the usual all-ins. Take a look at Bomber's games from the recent Redbull LAN: he doesn't shy away from adding lots of bunkers in his 1rax cc builds, and they save his ass more than once. The odds of losing a game because you "wasted" minerals on bunkers are practically zero, but those bunkers significantly increase your chances of holding off baneling busts, gateway all-ins, etc. Once you move out, just salvage them and use the minerals to take your third.
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Things filtersc didn't tell you or a humourous look at a bronze trying to apply the videos
So here's my experience trying the build up to the silver/gold video in a quest to get out of bronze league. I'm putting this here both for entertainment value, to see some feedback from experienced players (OMG SEE THAT BRONZE GUY BULLSHITTING MUST CORRECT!), and to warn professional bronze like me that "just" applying the things filtersc teaches are not enough to get you out of bronze. Strong players will keep telling you that the problem is your lack of macro and that with decent macro and a-move you will be in platinum (great - that's what the video teaches right?). The videos also reinforce this point a bit by showing filtersc a-move macro steamroll all his opponents. But those players are looking at the game through their thick, diamond/masters-plated glasses, so this doesn't actually apply to you. Well, not entirely at least. Also, the bronze players you encouter will be 7 league tiers above the ones filtersc plays, so you're gonna have a bad time.
On the defensive/harass/all-ins/cheeses:
LOOK AT THE MINIMAP
It's easy to forget this or not do it often enough because there's no benchmark for it. If you spot any of these half a second too late, you can just gg already.
Terran:
+ Show Spoiler +- Good news: terrans in bronze almost never cheese. I haven't seen any in about 150 games. They're all busy with filtersc's videos. The only cheese I ever saw was a marine+scv rush from a gold player...and he lost easily due to the bunkered marines.
- Bad news: they're good at harassing, especially with early (cloacked) banshees or with 1-1-1 like builds. Keep a force of marines hotkeyed and make sure you have a scan queued up. With your 2 Orbitals that shouldn't be much a problem. Turrets are quite useless as they're static and easily microed around by your opponent (though if you have some spare minerals, they can reduce your multitasking load a little). Move your scvs out of the way. When the bashee is gone, put them back to mining. If some were in gas, don't forget to put them back in gas.
- Make sure to lay out your base with wide lanes between buildings, don't just randomly put buildings down. Drops do a load more damage if you can't concave around them. And you will get dropped. A lot.
Zerg:
+ Show Spoiler +- Good news: I have seen at most one 6-pool in 150 games. Proper wall-off and timely scv repair will hold. Zerg players sometimes like to harass or attack with a bunch of mutalisks, but a mobile force of marines dispatches them even easier than bashees. They don't even have cloack, so not sure why they bother. They're probably wishing they'd picked terran?
- Bad news: Banelings are the bane of your existance. They absolutely murder bio-forces and you're not good enough to consistently split your 'rines. They can also tear up bunkers pretty easily. Seem to hit around the 9-11 minute mark, with a bunch of zergling to pick up any stragglers. The only good counter I've found so far is a double wall-off with bunkers and a ton of depots before them. Even if most of those depots die on every baneling ball that rolls towards you base, you'll have an ever-increasing marine force behind them, whereas your opponent will lose his army each time.
- You can lift your buildings when attacked. Lings can't fly.
Protoss:
+ Show Spoiler +- Good news: Nope.
- Bad news: You'll get cheesed about 9 out of your 10 games against protoss.
- 4-gate: Have 1 or preferably 2 or even better 3 bunkers up, repair with marines, and pray. They're the hardest to hold. Even if executed at bronze level. I still mostly lose to this due too late response. If you lose a bunker you can gg.
- Blink stalkers: Haven't seen this much, but can be quite murderous to your macro/scv as they bypass your bunkers. Not sure what to do here, try to keep map control and get maurauders?
- Void rays: You'll need to scout these, so again map control. You need to respond *immediately* and start shooting them down or its gg. Mass stimmed marines work.
- Cannon rush: This should be banned. If you see a probe, always follow and kill it with great prejudice. I do mean always. Every Protoss player has wet dreams of putting pylons in the opponents base, they live for this. If it starts building a pylon, get at least 3 scvs and kill it immediately. If one of the cannons goes up, you can gg. You need to scout around your base.
- Dark templars: Detectable with scans, but if they make 3 or 4 of them, and split, you will run out of scvs before you get enough scans, so they'll hurt a lot. They make a swishy sound and your SCVs will explode without reason. I now tend to build a turrent next to my ramp just to avoid them coming into my main base.
Attacking:
Great, we have our 90 supply army at 10 mins or our 200 supply army at 17 mins (bronze, remember?) What now?
Terran:
+ Show Spoiler +If you macroed better than your opponent, you will have more marines and kill him (minus to getting stuck behind terrain and losing to half the forces). There is only one problem: terran players love to get siege tanks, turtle, and build a defensive line in their base that's very hard to apporach with your bio units. If you just a-move like in the videos, you'll get massacred. I found 2.5 options: - If the base is not or not entirely covered by turrents, drop (preferably) into their mineral line. If you do a big enough drop, you can kill them outright, or cripple them enough that you can remax faster and lather-rinse-repeat. Bonus points for dropping and attacking in another prong as soon as he unsieges/moves the marines away from the tanks. (Though you're betraying bronze level with this kind of multitasking, really)
- Terran players are quite smart and will tend to wall of their base effectively with turrents, making the drops a lot harder (they're not so effective if you lose most of your force before it lands). I've sometimes managed to manouever my siege tanks around their base, bombard the turrets and then drop in the room I made with them. Not sure if this is possible consistently.
- If you're patient, this works very well: Keep expanding and macro as much as possible, build a ton of CC's, rax, everything. Your goal is to mine out the map before he does, and remax instantly even if you lose your entire force. Keep a small force back to defend drops and use your main force to kill every expansion he gets up. Get all ship upgrades, put down 5 starports, and start spamming battleships. If done well, he'll be too starved to attack, and won't be able to keep up with your teching. Then a-move your 10+ battleships.
- I've started mixing some vikings into the MMM ball to take out the opponents medivacs. Not sure if it's a good idea, but it seems to annoy the opponents.
Zerg:
+ Show Spoiler +
Banelings are your only real problem. Split your marines (or at least try to - I manage to lose both groups equally good). Make sure you can re-max faster than your opponent does. Dropping in one end of the base and attacking in another usually leads to losing one half of your army to the banelings, but the other half can then do loads of damage. Zerg players don't seem to build a lot of spore crawlers, so drops are way more effective than against terrans. And unlike marines, lings can't fire up.Bring in the airforce, baby!
Protos:
+ Show Spoiler +
Because your opponent will have cheesed, if you get to a point where you can attack you'll tend to be way ahead. Just a-move to win, and see QQ about marines being overpowered. Let's hope bronze level protoss never discovers forcefields, eh?
So, I hope with this advice and filtersc's videos (but mostly this advice), you'll be on your way to be a professional bronze leaguer. If you're doing it as good as me, you may even end up being the best player in the world! (Evidence here: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/32496746/rank1.png )
Next year, I'll bring you the follow up post: How to stay in Silver league. Cheers!
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Funny to read, Garf.
Against Terrans that turtle hard with siege tanks i'd like to add, when you have expanded all over the map and have loads of OCs, scan the opponents defense line and drop mules in there, preferably into a bunch of marines or on the tanks. :D
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On June 04 2012 17:37 Garf wrote:
Things filtersc didn't tell you or a humourous look at a bronze trying to apply the videos
So here's my experience trying the build up to the silver/gold video in a quest to get out of bronze league. I'm putting this here both for entertainment value, to see some feedback from experienced players (OMG SEE THAT BRONZE GUY BULLSHITTING MUST CORRECT!), and to warn professional bronze like me that "just" applying the things filtersc teaches are not enough to get you out of bronze. Strong players will keep telling you that the problem is your lack of macro and that with decent macro and a-move you will be in platinum (great - that's what the video teaches right?). The videos also reinforce this point a bit by showing filtersc a-move macro steamroll all his opponents. But those players are looking at the game through their thick, diamond/masters-plated glasses, so this doesn't actually apply to you. Well, not entirely at least. Also, the bronze players you encouter will be 7 league tiers above the ones filtersc plays, so you're gonna have a bad time.
Tbh, it is not just Filter that A-Moved himself out of bronze. I did it aswell and plenty other people in this thread used his guide to do it. I don't see why you can't, but maybe, just maybe, it is because you aren't doing what you are supposed to be doing when following the guide.
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The entire part of my post that you didn't quote explains why.
Basically you need to micro/respond to harass, cheese and all-in, recover correctly, and know how to defeat compositions that slaughter your MMM ball too cost-effectively for your massive macro advantage to matter.
As I already explained, bronze players DO NOT respond with the same speed and accuracy that filter does (even if in true master style he thinks he sucks at it) and they'll get killed. It's hard to win the macro battle if your SCV's keep getting killed by cheese. Your 140 supply MMM army doesn't matter if it a-moves against a line of siege tanks or runs into a bunch of banelings.
If I'm left alone for 10 to 14 minutes, and my opponent doesn't get siege tanks or banelings, I can a-move to win with my eyes closed. This happens in maybe 1 out of 10 games (and as explained some posts above, that's usually against silver/gold players, probably due to MMR weirdness). You need to win at least 5 more out of 10 consistently to advance a league.
The goal of my post is to explain to other bronze players how to respond to the stuff thrown at you, and solicit feedback from stronger players where my advice is wrong or suboptimal.
If you really can't get over the idea that macro and a-moving might not be all that's needed to get out of bronze, pretend in your head that my post was about silver/gold/whatever league and explain what parts are wrong. This will actually help us bronze n00bs.
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On June 04 2012 17:37 Garf wrote:Things filtersc didn't tell you or a humourous look at a bronze trying to apply the videosSo here's my experience trying the build up to the silver/gold video in a quest to get out of bronze league. I'm putting this here both for entertainment value, to see some feedback from experienced players (OMG SEE THAT BRONZE GUY BULLSHITTING MUST CORRECT!), and to warn professional bronze like me that "just" applying the things filtersc teaches are not enough to get you out of bronze. Strong players will keep telling you that the problem is your lack of macro and that with decent macro and a-move you will be in platinum (great - that's what the video teaches right?). The videos also reinforce this point a bit by showing filtersc a-move macro steamroll all his opponents. But those players are looking at the game through their thick, diamond/masters-plated glasses, so this doesn't actually apply to you. Well, not entirely at least. Also, the bronze players you encouter will be 7 league tiers above the ones filtersc plays, so you're gonna have a bad time. On the defensive/harass/all-ins/cheeses: LOOK AT THE MINIMAP It's easy to forget this or not do it often enough because there's no benchmark for it. If you spot any of these half a second too late, you can just gg already. Terran: + Show Spoiler +- Good news: terrans in bronze almost never cheese. I haven't seen any in about 150 games. They're all busy with filtersc's videos. The only cheese I ever saw was a marine+scv rush from a gold player...and he lost easily due to the bunkered marines.
- Bad news: they're good at harassing, especially with early (cloacked) banshees or with 1-1-1 like builds. Keep a force of marines hotkeyed and make sure you have a scan queued up. With your 2 Orbitals that shouldn't be much a problem. Turrets are quite useless as they're static and easily microed around by your opponent (though if you have some spare minerals, they can reduce your multitasking load a little). Move your scvs out of the way. When the bashee is gone, put them back to mining. If some were in gas, don't forget to put them back in gas.
- Make sure to lay out your base with wide lanes between buildings, don't just randomly put buildings down. Drops do a load more damage if you can't concave around them. And you will get dropped. A lot.
Zerg: + Show Spoiler +- Good news: I have seen at most one 6-pool in 150 games. Proper wall-off and timely scv repair will hold. Zerg players sometimes like to harass or attack with a bunch of mutalisks, but a mobile force of marines dispatches them even easier than bashees. They don't even have cloack, so not sure why they bother. They're probably wishing they'd picked terran?
- Bad news: Banelings are the bane of your existance. They absolutely murder bio-forces and you're not good enough to consistently split your 'rines. They can also tear up bunkers pretty easily. Seem to hit around the 9-11 minute mark, with a bunch of zergling to pick up any stragglers. The only good counter I've found so far is a double wall-off with bunkers and a ton of depots before them. Even if most of those depots die on every baneling ball that rolls towards you base, you'll have an ever-increasing marine force behind them, whereas your opponent will lose his army each time.
- You can lift your buildings when attacked. Lings can't fly.
Protoss: + Show Spoiler +- Good news: Nope.
- Bad news: You'll get cheesed about 9 out of your 10 games against protoss.
- 4-gate: Have 1 or preferably 2 or even better 3 bunkers up, repair with marines, and pray. They're the hardest to hold. Even if executed at bronze level. I still mostly lose to this due too late response. If you lose a bunker you can gg.
- Blink stalkers: Haven't seen this much, but can be quite murderous to your macro/scv as they bypass your bunkers. Not sure what to do here, try to keep map control and get maurauders?
- Void rays: You'll need to scout these, so again map control. You need to respond *immediately* and start shooting them down or its gg. Mass stimmed marines work.
- Cannon rush: This should be banned. If you see a probe, always follow and kill it with great prejudice. I do mean always. Every Protoss player has wet dreams of putting pylons in the opponents base, they live for this. If it starts building a pylon, get at least 3 scvs and kill it immediately. If one of the cannons goes up, you can gg. You need to scout around your base.
- Dark templars: Detectable with scans, but if they make 3 or 4 of them, and split, you will run out of scvs before you get enough scans, so they'll hurt a lot. They make a swishy sound and your SCVs will explode without reason. I now tend to build a turrent next to my ramp just to avoid them coming into my main base.
: Great, we have our 90 supply army at 10 mins or our 200 supply army at 17 mins (bronze, remember?) What now? Terran: + Show Spoiler +If you macroed better than your opponent, you will have more marines and kill him (minus to getting stuck behind terrain and losing to half the forces). There is only one problem: terran players love to get siege tanks, turtle, and build a defensive line in their base that's very hard to apporach with your bio units. If you just a-move like in the videos, you'll get massacred. I found 2.5 options: - If the base is not or not entirely covered by turrents, drop (preferably) into their mineral line. If you do a big enough drop, you can kill them outright, or cripple them enough that you can remax faster and lather-rinse-repeat. Bonus points for dropping and attacking in another prong as soon as he unsieges/moves the marines away from the tanks. (Though you're betraying bronze level with this kind of multitasking, really)
- Terran players are quite smart and will tend to wall of their base effectively with turrents, making the drops a lot harder (they're not so effective if you lose most of your force before it lands). I've sometimes managed to manouever my siege tanks around their base, bombard the turrets and then drop in the room I made with them. Not sure if this is possible consistently.
- If you're patient, this works very well: Keep expanding and macro as much as possible, build a ton of CC's, rax, everything. Your goal is to mine out the map before he does, and remax instantly even if you lose your entire force. Keep a small force back to defend drops and use your main force to kill every expansion he gets up. Get all ship upgrades, put down 5 starports, and start spamming battleships. If done well, he'll be too starved to attack, and won't be able to keep up with your teching. Then a-move your 10+ battleships.
- I've started mixing some vikings into the MMM ball to take out the opponents medivacs. Not sure if it's a good idea, but it seems to annoy the opponents.
Zerg: + Show Spoiler +
Banelings are your only real problem. Split your marines (or at least try to - I manage to lose both groups equally good). Make sure you can re-max faster than your opponent does. Dropping in one end of the base and attacking in another usually leads to losing one half of your army to the banelings, but the other half can then do loads of damage. Zerg players don't seem to build a lot of spore crawlers, so drops are way more effective than against terrans. And unlike marines, lings can't fire up.Bring in the airforce, baby!
Protos: + Show Spoiler +
Because your opponent will have cheesed, if you get to a point where you can attack you'll tend to be way ahead. Just a-move to win, and see QQ about marines being overpowered. Let's hope bronze level protoss never discovers forcefields, eh?
So, I hope with this advice and filtersc's videos (but mostly this advice), you'll be on your way to be a professional bronze leaguer. If you're doing it as good as me, you may even end up being the best player in the world! (Evidence here: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/32496746/rank1.png ) Next year, I'll bring you the follow up post: How to stay in Silver league. Cheers!
I agree whoeheartedly with this, and it's doubly true when playing protoss. We need our warpgates up before we can really do anything, so holding off early pressure takes a considerable amount of both micro and decision making as we only have like a stalker and a zealot. Atleast it's considerable for me.
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starting to find it hard to deal with in silver when i hit all the benchmarks in a ladder match but the initial push @ 150 supply doesn't quite manage to kill off a turtling terran then i lose because i fall behind in tech on 2 base
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On June 04 2012 20:19 Garf wrote:
The entire part of my post that you didn't quote explains why.
Basically you need to micro/respond to harass, cheese and all-in, recover correctly, and know how to defeat compositions that slaughter your MMM ball too cost-effectively for your massive macro advantage to matter.
If 4gates and cannon rushes were perfectly executed by bronze players, they wouldn't be in bronze. This is not an excuse. Cheeses in bronze come up to a full two-3 minutes late. Stuff like banshees and DT's and whatnot are done by players who neglect their macro and stop making harvesters and are supply blocked the whole time theyre managing their gimmick/cheese units. Saying that you need master-level execution to deal with it is a fallacy and it presumes that it's done with master-level precision by your opponent, which is disproved by the fact that your opponent is in the same league as you.
As I already explained, bronze players DO NOT respond with the same speed and accuracy that filter does (even if in true master style he thinks he sucks at it) and they'll get killed. It's hard to win the macro battle if your SCV's keep getting killed by cheese. Your 140 supply MMM army doesn't matter if it a-moves against a line of siege tanks or runs into a bunch of banelings.
I
If I'm left alone for 10 to 14 minutes, and my opponent doesn't get siege tanks or banelings, I can a-move to win with my eyes closed. This happens in maybe 1 out of 10 games (and as explained some posts above, that's usually against silver/gold players, probably due to MMR weirdness). You need to win at least 5 more out of 10 consistently to advance a league.
Why dont you post 45 or more replays of you hitting your benchmarks with reasonable execution and then this happens to you and I'll concede that bronze league or "high tier top 8 bronze" is harder than it used to be. As someone who a-moved out of Bronze, I'd like to inform you that if you already have a shitty MMR to begin with, it can take 55-65 wins to get promoted. You can't just do this 20 times and expect to automatically get promoted. And yes, there will be a lot of smurfs, but not enough to keep you from getting promoted.
Also, THIS:
Great, we have our 90 supply army at 10 mins or our 200 supply army at 17 mins (bronze, remember?)
You kind of void your right to complain until you fix THIS EXACT ISSUE.
The goal of my post is to explain to other bronze players how to respond to the stuff thrown at you, and solicit feedback from stronger players where my advice is wrong or suboptimal.
If you really can't get over the idea that macro and a-moving might not be all that's needed to get out of bronze, pretend in your head that my post was about silver/gold/whatever league and explain what parts are wrong. This will actually help us bronze n00bs.
No, I won't pretend because this is bronze we're talking about, not gold and silver. Haven't we theorized enough already?
Now, you'll probably respond that I'm "ignoring the finer points and details" of your well thought out arguments, but that's because I know rationalization and excuse-making when I see it.
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On June 05 2012 04:11 Frolossus wrote:
starting to find it hard to deal with in silver when i hit all the benchmarks in a ladder match but the initial push @ 150 supply doesn't quite manage to kill off a turtling terran then i lose because i fall behind in tech on 2 base
I ran into a similar problem, I just made into Platinum using the bronze benchmarks (YAY!), but my winning streak flattened down to 50/50 pretty suddenly as I started hitting opponents who could macro well enough that if they turtle up, they can weather the storm of mass roaches...
- The best example I have for overcoming your situation, happened on Shakuras Plateau. Working on the silver benchmarks now, I did OK (still missed the benchmarks) and managed to hold off some 6 hellion pressure. I pushed out pretty much on time with my +1/+1 speed roaches, but ran into bunkers, seiged tanks all over his cliffs, and about a dozen hellions... I backed off (having walked into this far too many times before)
At this point I was a bit lost, but I still had my army... I figured he'd probably stay in his base for a bit, so I moved my army over to his 3rd, either to deny it, or maybe ambush his army when he leaves.
I wasn't really comfortable switching tech, or expanding a lot - so I just kept macroing, pumping more roaches, getting +2/+2, keeping an eye on the watch towers to see if he was coming out... my thinking is that if I'm already ahead, we're both on two bases, I can at LEAST delay our engagement until I'm maxed and I should still be on top
sure enough, I was hitting around 180/200 when he came stomping across the map with a pile of tanks thors and hellions. I waited until he was past the watch towers, then A-moved my orginal army (still at his unclaimed third) into his nat. Back at my base I'd been massing the larger portion of my army, and I waited until my roaches got to his natural (I'm watching the minimap at this point) then, hoping that the "base is under attack" alarm got him to look away, charged my roaches into his army - caught his tanks seiging up and killed them all.
The battle was close, even with the tanks gone my army was split so I back up to my choke - and went to check on his natural - my roaches had torn down his orbital and were ravaging workers, everything was on fire... he leaves the game.
so.... maybe this guy made some terrible mistakes, but he made it to platinum, and I think the moral of my story still stands that you should be able to stick to "MACRO HARD" as a rule, and still come out on top. Unless you lose your whole army walking into seige tanks... that's bad.
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On June 05 2012 04:34 Snoodles wrote:
If 4gates and cannon rushes were perfectly executed by bronze players, they wouldn't be in bronze. This is not an excuse. Cheeses in bronze come up to a full two-3 minutes late. Stuff like banshees and DT's and whatnot are done by players who neglect their macro and stop making harvesters and are supply blocked the whole time theyre managing their gimmick/cheese units.
Who talks here about perfect execution? If your opponent executes a cheese he knows and you don't, he's got a large advantage over you even if he pulls it off badly. He might lose every time he plays against a player who knows to respond, but that, nor your way superior macro, is going to help you at that point.
Saying that you need master-level execution to deal with it is a fallacy
Where did I claim this? I'm claiming *filtersc* deals with them like that in his videos. A worse player is going to lose more units and perhaps even a bunch of scv's, which will set his macro back and make winning the game a lot harder. If he responds really badly, he'll lose outright. You'll have hard time counting scv's at 10 minutes if your base is wiped out by that point.
Show nested quote +Great, we have our 90 supply army at 10 mins or our 200 supply army at 17 mins (bronze, remember?) You kind of void your right to complain until you fix THIS EXACT ISSUE
"Right to complain?"
If your idea of improvement is a-losing your entire army into siege tank lines/baneling groups every game until you hit the 200@14 consistently, fine. It looks like you can be up in master league before you get that nailed down, so I don't recommend anyone to take such a black and white attitude. (If you don't get it: filtersc misses the benchmarks in the videos)
Personally, I've been looking at my replays seeing how I could improve, and the original post contains the most important points I learned/experienced. I admit having a hard time hitting the benchmarks with a DT sitting among my SCVs or a few cannons sitting in my mineral line - you're telling me more macro practise will fix that?
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I'm just wondering if the 10 min push i do can be delay to include thors in tvp cause everytime i've used them it helps me deal extra dps instead of pushing with mmm
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EPT
