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On March 20 2012 09:49 Geiko wrote:Mmmm, I'm not getting the hallucinate part either  You basically have only one sentry so getting hallucination for 100 gas gives you at most 2 half life phoenixes that do 0 dps instead of 1 real phoenix (since you can't produce constant phoenix out of 2 stargates).
The 2 Star is refering to a 2 Base Followup due to the fact that Phoenix-Mirror most likely results in both players expanding and the fact that even a single Stargate sucks up all the Gas from one base if chronoboosted from time to time.
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I'd like to watch the replays where the opponent has Blink and immediately expands upon seeing your phoenixes, but I'm not sure how to sort these out from the rest. Is there any easy way of doing this?
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On March 20 2012 10:07 Xanatoss wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 09:49 Geiko wrote:Mmmm, I'm not getting the hallucinate part either You basically have only one sentry so getting hallucination for 100 gas gives you at most 2 half life phoenixes that do 0 dps instead of 1 real phoenix (since you can't produce constant phoenix out of 2 stargates). The 2 Star is referencing to a 2 Base Followup due to the fact that Phoenix-Mirror most likely results in both players expanding and the fact that even a single Stargate sucks up all the Gas from one base if chronoboosted from time to time.
I don't believe you can make constant chronoboosted phoenix out of 2 stargates on 4 gas either though. (or can you ?)
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On March 20 2012 10:14 Geiko wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 10:07 Xanatoss wrote:On March 20 2012 09:49 Geiko wrote:Mmmm, I'm not getting the hallucinate part either You basically have only one sentry so getting hallucination for 100 gas gives you at most 2 half life phoenixes that do 0 dps instead of 1 real phoenix (since you can't produce constant phoenix out of 2 stargates). The 2 Star is referencing to a 2 Base Followup due to the fact that Phoenix-Mirror most likely results in both players expanding and the fact that even a single Stargate sucks up all the Gas from one base if chronoboosted from time to time. I don't believe you can make constant chronoboosted phoenix out of 2 stargates on 4 gas either though. (or can you ?)
Yes you can
At least I tried constantly chronopumping out of 1 stargate, 2 gas in lower speed and it worked perfectly. Should be the same.
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how do you deal with someone opening DT, then transitioning into 1base chargelot archon?
this always kills the shit out of me. =[ the DT's don't do any damage, but the chargelots and the splash from the archons fucks me up.
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On March 20 2012 10:07 Xanatoss wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 09:49 Geiko wrote:Mmmm, I'm not getting the hallucinate part either You basically have only one sentry so getting hallucination for 100 gas gives you at most 2 half life phoenixes that do 0 dps instead of 1 real phoenix (since you can't produce constant phoenix out of 2 stargates). The 2 Star is referencing to a 2 Base Followup due to the fact that Phoenix-Mirror most likely results in both players expanding and the fact that even a single Stargate sucks up all the Gas from one base if chronoboosted from time to time.
No it doesn't if you expand in a stargate mirror you will die... you can't even forcefield the ramp since you won't have sentries since your gas is going into phoenixes . Trust me I've killed so many stargate mirror players by just all inning them after their expansion has finished...
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it's unwise to expand blindly in phoenix vs phoenix without knowing their infrastructure, or if you can get the infrastructure information by having a phoenix lead. i will always expand after my opponent. kcdc knows about that you sneaky guy you tt
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http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=254353
guess who is the god of PvP? funny thing is i did this even before the ramp change and nobody thought that it would work even though i beat GM level all round :-/... i have been constantly update my forge phoenix build and quite sure i had 80% wr PvP on some certain map for PvP
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On March 20 2012 12:42 Protossking wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 10:07 Xanatoss wrote:On March 20 2012 09:49 Geiko wrote:Mmmm, I'm not getting the hallucinate part either You basically have only one sentry so getting hallucination for 100 gas gives you at most 2 half life phoenixes that do 0 dps instead of 1 real phoenix (since you can't produce constant phoenix out of 2 stargates). The 2 Star is referencing to a 2 Base Followup due to the fact that Phoenix-Mirror most likely results in both players expanding and the fact that even a single Stargate sucks up all the Gas from one base if chronoboosted from time to time. No it doesn't if you expand in a stargate mirror you will die... you can't even forcefield the ramp since you won't have sentries since your gas is going into phoenixes . Trust me I've killed so many stargate mirror players by just all inning them after their expansion has finished...
Did I say anything about expanding instantly? Oc you have to make sure your opponent ist playing "by the rules" and keeps producing phoenixes. But as you said yourself, all Gas is going into Phoenixes which narrows the possible All-Ins a lot. And if he cuts Phoenixes to get anything except Zealots and Gateways his Phoenixes just get overrun. Besides that you cant FF your Ramp for long anyways with that single Sentry one gets before identifying the Phoenix-Mirror.
My point is that a Phoenix-Mirror eventually leads to more expansions on both sides than in most other scenarios.
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ugh pvp phoenix vs phoenix makes me want to rip my eyes out. For the longest time I would go phoenix but now everyone just 4 gates or blink all ins me so I've switched my style. But having a good phoenix build for a passive robo player is great. Definately Id do to someone like liquid tyler. The amount of probes you can kill puts you so far ahead.
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I'm using a delayed Phoenix PvP build which has some trouble against greedy early Stargate builds and 1 gate stargate builds in general. Anyone here want to do some practice games of phoenix mirror on the EU server ? (PM me character code)
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Thanks for the replays
I was using 2 Gates Robo to get Fast Inmortal (Only 2 of them and Observer), then Expand and get a Stargate, so Phoenix like until 6 of them...
After Fenix Twilight to upgrade Charge, ending with Inmortal, ChargeLot, Fenix (targetting Colossi, Snipping Sentries, or even Zealots), and it was really good
Breaking FF was a problem but then there was the need of getting Archon (usually, using the Phoenix to snipe the Colossi and Sentires it was not much necessary)
I will try with your open from now on, and see how it works, thanks for keep trying things on PvP constantly 
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Too bad i'm at school now. Will defenitely check the replays all, since I really love Phoenix lately.
I haven't been using them in the first 2 years of Starcraft II, because I was working on other things, which made it difficult for me to focus on effective Phoenix control.
Nowadays I use it a lot more, and will see how it is used in the replays posted here.
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I really like phoenix in pvp, and I've been using them for a few months now.
The most annoying thing for me is either phoenix vs phoenix (I usually just try to expand ASAP with that), or as Alej mentioned in the OP: someone who goes defensive blink and expands.
Blink rushes were giving me some trouble for a while, but my robotics timing allows me to chrono one or two immortals out if I scout that coming.
Also I love following up with colossus, either 1 or 2 robo depending on what the other guy is doing. Your tech will usually be ahead of the other guy since he needs to make stalkers/cannons/blink so if you cut some corners and chrono out upgrades and econ you can just turtle the whole game while keeping an eye out for any 2 base timings with phoenix + tower control.
Here are a few of my replays from master league NA:
http://drop.sc/139653 -- holding a blink rush into turtle deathball win
http://drop.sc/139654 -- vs a 3 gate press into defensive blink expo. I go double robo colo and stay ahead of him in macro the whole game. The early stargate also means you usually get your mothership before he does, which opens up a pretty nice lategame timing.
http://drop.sc/139659 -- holding a 1 base immortal bust after expanding behind some phoenix. Even though my defense was a bit sloppy, the extra warp ins at the end + probe pull overwhelmed his all-in.
I have some other fun replays as well, like holding absurdly scary pushes with phoenix+dt but I can't find them right now. And I'm starting not to go into DT as much anymore because it just seems a bit too scrappy, if you can't snipe his obs quick enough then you are in big trouble.
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Finally someone has the stargate opening figured out in PvP, Im very impressed by the high win rates, but that is of no surprise as the metagame in pvp is still robo and or twilight heavy strats, and stargate counters those tech paths fairly well.
however the only concern is safely opening with stargate without being too greedy, scouting shouldn't be a problem since phoenix has such great mobility, but investing heavily in air units early on hinders the production of gateway units, and 1 gate into sg really cant deal with a build that puts on heavy pressure, something like a delayed 4 gate or a 3 gate blink at 7 min, a lot of the replays does prove my point, but once having 5-6 phoenix and a sizable groud force, this build becomes extremely powerful.
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I just want you to know whenever people go phoenix in PvP win or lose after the game i say "Thanks for not 4gating me and not making me want to throw my computer out the window :D"
question: If someone was already going Blink stalkers and shuts down your Phoenix play what do you do after?
Also, what do you do after doing harass after awhile and expand? What do you transition to? If you try to go Collosus your probably way behind their tech. Going Archons is a far route.
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On March 22 2012 11:50 DreamChaser wrote:
I just want you to know whenever people go phoenix in PvP win or lose after the game i say "Thanks for not 4gating me and not making me want to throw my computer out the window :D"
question: If someone was already going Blink stalkers and shuts down your Phoenix play what do you do after?
Also, what do you do after doing harass after awhile and expand? What do you transition to? If you try to go Collosus your probably way behind their tech. Going Archons is a far route.
I feel transitioning into robo and going for a few immortal is very strong, but you can play safe and expand while harassing, depending on their tech choices, a transition to colossus, chargelot archon is very solid in late game.
but if they went for a passive blink and expo, a strong counter would be getting 2-3 immortals and mass up zealots for a one base all in, i have seen a lot of pro players on ladder and having a lot of success with this style.
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so i tried playing the 1 gate phoenix for quite a while and i was having trouble with delayed gateway rushes if I went robo after stargate and dts/blink if I went 3 gate phoenix. Then I watched boyo stream and he goes 12 gate and makes zealot sentry sentry with second gas around 21 (i get it at 18 with a scout at second pylon which allows for a 17 core without cutting probes and spend all chrono on warpgate unless he is playing greedy in which case either pool chrono for phoenixes or chorno more probes until i match his chrono) gets second gate to make a 1 zealot choke at the ramp and like a 4:50 stargate which is maybe 5-10 seconds later than 1 gate stargate but it provides a lot in return. For one thing he has the minerals for about a 5:30 robo (much faster than getting a robo with the zealot stalker stalker sentry 1 gate phoenix build that robo comes out like a minute later) without cutting into phoenix production which makes it a great deal easier to deal with dt/blink depending on what you scout with phoenix and also because you have the sentries so fast you have at least 3 force fields for any kind of delayed warp gate pushes which give you enough time to chrono out an immortal and not take any damage. The fast immortals allow you to expo and harass with phoenix without worrying about a counter killing you. Ive held all of the zealot archon all ins ive played so far off of blink expo with no effort by getting 2 robo colossus and pylon wall while counter lifting their probes essentially winning the game at about a 7-8 hundred master level from this phoenix opener and all 4 gates where I didnt miss a ramp force field. A warp prism 4 gate might be tricky but other than that I dont see any other advantages the 1 gate phoenix forge build has over this. If anyone has any thoughts on this over alejs build which he was a thread about, please post, and if ur interested in the build just watch vods from boyo's stream, hes top 50 gm and does it a lot.
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Thanks Alej! This build is a lot of fun. Just got my first win with it. 27 worker kills ^^
Keep up the good work!
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EPT
