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hey guys here are my PvP ladder games since the 21st of feb
http://drop.sc/packs/681
I've been working hard on the sg builds. Early robo after SG might be better against some things, but I have found a fast forge, usually after 1 phoenix, is quite good as well. One cannon is very strong against blink + robo off of one base in that the detection range is absurd, and cannons are pretty good against stalkers. Here is the build that I've been having the most success with recently:
9 pylon
12 gate
14 gas
15 pylon
17 core
18 zealot
20/21 gas
22 stalker
22 WG research (3 CB minimum; 4 vs. aggression)
24/25 pylon
25 stalker (cb)
29 2nd gate or sg
29 sentry
31 2nd gate or sg
~ forge after 1st phoenix
It seems to be good against everything except blink expands that play very passively-- against expansions, you can almost always kill enough probes to compensate for your later expansion. When your opponent plays defensively on 2 bases with a fast blink, this is almost impossible; you should theoretically always be behind going into the mid game
While the forge prevents you from putting on any SG 3-4 gate pressure, you will be safe from everything off of 1 base, besides WP 4gates if you don't see them coming in time. It should beat DT builds, but after the DTs can't get in, you need to prepare for an archon follow-up so make sure you are checking their nat for an expansion, or looking for units on the map.
Off of 2 bases all you need to worry about is a handful of robo+blink timings that hit very quickly after going up to 6+ gates, with some immortals or a colossus. you need to scout their infrastructure on 2 bases even if you have to sacrifice a phoenix and add additional gates/robo units accordingly.
Feel free to comment/ask questions!
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Oh so sick. I've never really gotten into the Phoenix thing for PvP. Ganna check em out and see what's up. Thanks Alej.
How do you usually do vs really fast 1 base blink allin? I usually can kill players that get a SG with a fast Blink + 3 Gate allin.
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On March 19 2012 12:59 CecilSunkure wrote:
Oh so sick. I've never really gotten into the Phoenix thing for PvP. Ganna check em out and see what's up. Thanks Alej.
How do you usually do vs really fast 1 base blink allin? I usually can kill players that get a SG with a fast Blink + 3 Gate allin.
i just forcefield the bottom of the ramp until I can engage it :D
of course, if i don't see it coming, i just die immediately  see the vines game tt
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Ah yes! Really been struggling with my PvP lately (only diamond :/ ). Is the 2nd gas early enough to prevent a gas steal? How would you deal with that?
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On March 19 2012 13:37 bloodorc44 wrote:
Ah yes! Really been struggling with my PvP lately (only diamond :/ ). Is the 2nd gas early enough to prevent a gas steal? How would you deal with that?
it's not at 18 so there is the potential for a steal. you can't always block the gas steal because even if you put a probe on it, they can steal it by building it when the geyser is out of vision. if you do get it stolen, try to steal theirs. if i can steal there's i continue but just get the sg slightly later. if i cannot, i do some light WG pressure off of 3 gates but don't commit so hard to it. feel free to snag it a little bit earlier if you are worried about gas steal. i haven't played out a lot of games where i get my gas stolen so i don't really have a whole lot to say on the matter sorry!
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On March 19 2012 13:39 Alejandrisha wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2012 13:37 bloodorc44 wrote:
Ah yes! Really been struggling with my PvP lately (only diamond :/ ). Is the 2nd gas early enough to prevent a gas steal? How would you deal with that? it's not at 18 so there is the potential for a steal. you can't always block the gas steal because even if you put a probe on it, they can steal it by building it when the geyser is out of vision. if you do get it stolen, try to steal theirs. if i can steal there's i continue but just get the sg slightly later. if i cannot, i do some light WG pressure off of 3 gates but don't commit so hard to it. feel free to snag it a little bit earlier if you are worried about gas steal. i haven't played out a lot of games where i get my gas stolen so i don't really have a whole lot to say on the matter sorry!
Thanks! And I never knew you could do that with a gas steal haha
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Do you think the forge is worth it/necessary? i go phoenixes in every PvP and i dont have any trouble defending with just 2-3 sentries and a robo after 4 phonixes i dont feel like theres a need for detection until you have DTs knocking at your ramp, you can have your units on hold position and ff if you see they are getting attacked by nothing and ff until you have detection.
On a side note any 1 base blink feels like auto loss for me but what i like about phoenixes is that it feels like auto win or a build order advantage vs a lot of stuff.
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anywhere i can find to improve my pheonix micro i feel like i leave them unattended sometimes and lose for no reason. like when you pick up worker and many pheonix arnt attacking. any maps?
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On March 19 2012 16:20 Gamma4 wrote:
anywhere i can find to improve my pheonix micro i feel like i leave them unattended sometimes and lose for no reason. like when you pick up worker and many pheonix arnt attacking. any maps?
when you're using lift make sure you're also spam right clicking the the dot under your phoenixes so they group up. you'll always need to be using phoenixes to check expansion timings, tech choices/switches and move-outs. once you have gotten yourself some map control, take a tower with a probe. there's nothing worse than confirming no expansion---and then bam 10 stalkers blink up your ramp
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Neat, I was hoping one of you guys came up with some pheonix play, as I am trying something similar but don't really have a point of reference :-).
First things first: I'm only plat, so I do realize there are other issues besides "strategy".
However, here it goes:
In the PvP build I try, I also use Phoenix play, only a lot more aggressive. The opening is quite similar, in that I get gate-core-sg-gate. However, I am trying to:
- have three stalkers as first gw units
- chrono up to 5 phoenixes
- add third gw when I can afford it
- pump as many stalkers as gas allows considering constant phoenix production + zealots for the rest of my production cycles.
After getting 4-6 phoenixes, move out. If the opponent attacks before this timing, defend accordingly.
The actual key points in what I try to do are:
- either attack a defending opponent or defend an early push with minimal losses;
- depending on the first engagement, go for the kill or take natural;
Basically it all comes down to the first engagement. Usually (and this has worked so far in EVERY game I tried it, unless I horribly missmicroed), I lift his key units: immortals / sentries / stalkers. Once these are up in the air, I have superior numbers of stalkers. While 3-4 units are in the air, the remaining phoenixes shoot / the ground army clears whatever is left on the ground.
Going back to your replays, Alej, in #136025 you put a lot of minerals into forge and cannons. My questions for you are:
- do you think 3 gates + stargate could handle the 4 gate pressure (considering you manage to engage him since the first wave of warpins so still hold his numbers low)?
- don't you feel like its' too much of an investment forge + 2 cannons at that point in the game? I feel like if he would've defended better (sent 4 stalkers back into his base to keep your phoenixes away) he could've contained you 1 base, expanded and gained a big advantage from then on.
Thanks for your time.
PS: I just cleared the entire replay directory when I looked at yours. I assume I could provide replays of my phoenix play tomorrow, if needed, although it's a bit painfull to watch  .
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seems strong, i reckon it could really work against any race if you ask me. From what i know, it takes 6-7 phoenixes to lock down an expansion in terms of workers produced vs recharge of phoenix energy, so cutting off half their income with a critical mass of 6-7 phoenix is just... well, you do the math . Once the initial harass is over, I'd say use the phoenixes for either helping to kill colossus, or lifting off 6-7 stalkers in a large engagement. If you choose the shooting the colossus bit, I'd recommend getting air weapons before a big engagement occurs. Just remember to keep them alive!
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I like to get a robo instead of a forge. It lets you make immortals vs blink stalkers (and you can lift up their immortals with phoenix). Then you can also get an observer for dts, and snipe theirs. I often try to expand and get a forge and twilight, for +1, charge, and eventually archons.
I always scout and harass with 2 phoenix, since you'll be able to see his tech decisions. Usually I won't add a 3rd gate right away, unless my opponent puts on a lot of aggression.
You can hold off 4 gate simply by making sentries. Once successfully defended, you'll have a tech advantage over your opponent.
You can usually all-in one base colossus and fast expands by adding on another gate.
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Edit: wrong thread, sorry.
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How do you handle agressive 4 gate, with 2 pylons starting off your ramp around 5'15 ? Do you simply not drop the stargate and go for a faster second gate and chrono stalkers ( like in the 3 stalkers rush ) ?
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to defend 4 gate you can still get the stargate, but just make sentries out of your gateways. as long as his units don't make it up the ramp you should be fine.
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On March 19 2012 19:59 moQbara wrote:Neat, I was hoping one of you guys came up with some pheonix play, as I am trying something similar but don't really have a point of reference :-). First things first: I'm only plat, so I do realize there are other issues besides "strategy". However, here it goes: In the PvP build I try, I also use Phoenix play, only a lot more aggressive. The opening is quite similar, in that I get gate-core-sg-gate. However, I am trying to: - have three stalkers as first gw units - chrono up to 5 phoenixes - add third gw when I can afford it - pump as many stalkers as gas allows considering constant phoenix production + zealots for the rest of my production cycles. After getting 4-6 phoenixes, move out. If the opponent attacks before this timing, defend accordingly. The actual key points in what I try to do are: - either attack a defending opponent or defend an early push with minimal losses; - depending on the first engagement, go for the kill or take natural; Basically it all comes down to the first engagement. Usually (and this has worked so far in EVERY game I tried it, unless I horribly missmicroed), I lift his key units: immortals / sentries / stalkers. Once these are up in the air, I have superior numbers of stalkers. While 3-4 units are in the air, the remaining phoenixes shoot / the ground army clears whatever is left on the ground. Going back to your replays, Alej, in #136025 you put a lot of minerals into forge and cannons. My questions for you are: - do you think 3 gates + stargate could handle the 4 gate pressure (considering you manage to engage him since the first wave of warpins so still hold his numbers low)? - don't you feel like its' too much of an investment forge + 2 cannons at that point in the game? I feel like if he would've defended better (sent 4 stalkers back into his base to keep your phoenixes away) he could've contained you 1 base, expanded and gained a big advantage from then on. Thanks for your time. PS: I just cleared the entire replay directory when I looked at yours. I assume I could provide replays of my phoenix play tomorrow, if needed, although it's a bit painfull to watch .
Doesn't your build here just straight up die to DT openers though? I'm pretty sure that the reasoning for the Cannons, along with the ability to spot Observers to help against Blink play.
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On March 19 2012 23:15 Fossa wrote:
to defend 4 gate you can still get the stargate, but just make sentries out of your gateways. as long as his units don't make it up the ramp you should be fine.
Even making a sentry as your third and fourth units, chrono boosted, you won't have enough force-fields until your warp is done. I don't believe you can hold if you drop a stargate and go for a stalker as your second unit.. can you post a replay ?
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Italy12246 Posts
On March 19 2012 23:25 Nyast wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2012 23:15 Fossa wrote:
to defend 4 gate you can still get the stargate, but just make sentries out of your gateways. as long as his units don't make it up the ramp you should be fine. Even making a sentry as your third and fourth units, chrono boosted, you won't have enough force-fields until your warp is done. I don't believe you can hold if you drop a stargate and go for a stalker as your second unit.. can you post a replay ?
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=302117
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On March 19 2012 23:17 BronzeKnee wrote:
Doesn't your build here just straight up die to DT openers though? I'm pretty sure that the reasoning for the Cannons, along with the ability to spot Observers to help against Blink play.
Although never faced a DT opener, I think DTs arrive quite late and are easily scoutable. You have your probe in their base up until the first stalker comes out and then poke around with your own stalkers. Depending on the sentry / stalker count you can pretty much tell if there's any chance for a DT rush and react based on that info.
Cannons vs observers aren't great since you cannot cover the entire edge of your base with cannos.
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is it wrong that I go 1 base double forge with 3 gate push? I win 65 percent of my pvps this way in masters.
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Sweet! Phoenix PvP is my favorite style but I find myself losing too much to certain types of pressure. I'm sure this replay pack will be a great reference, thanks!
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On March 20 2012 00:43 TangSC wrote:
Sweet! Phoenix PvP is my favorite style but I find myself losing too much to certain types of pressure. I'm sure this replay pack will be a great reference, thanks!
what kind of pressure? off one base or 2? i think i've just about seen them all at this point haha
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Italy12246 Posts
On March 20 2012 00:34 RaiD.RaynoR wrote:
is it wrong that I go 1 base double forge with 3 gate push? I win 65 percent of my pvps this way in masters.
1base double forge with only 3gates and no tech? Yeah it makes no sense whatsoever. Replays?
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well idk you can do a lot of wonky things in masters 4v4
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On March 19 2012 12:51 Alejandrisha wrote:
It seems to be good against everything except blink expands that play very passively-- against expansions, you can almost always kill enough probes to compensate for your later expansion. When your opponent plays defensively on 2 bases with a fast blink, this is almost impossible; you should theoretically always be behind going into the mid game
Can't you get charge, maybe +1 armor/attack and your 3rd? You get ready to farg him hard at middle of map with chargelots stalkers + phoenixes. Techpath: chargelot/archon into doublerobo colo.
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I dont know if I like the Forge. I play Phoenixes in PvP aswell and I feel going for a Robo as 4th Structure instead (even blind if you embrace the fact that you cant kill FE Builds immediately) is almost always better. Highground-Cannons are just completely useless as soon as you expand or if the opponent goes for the really common blink/obs build.
On March 20 2012 02:02 Ryndika wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2012 12:51 Alejandrisha wrote:
It seems to be good against everything except blink expands that play very passively-- against expansions, you can almost always kill enough probes to compensate for your later expansion. When your opponent plays defensively on 2 bases with a fast blink, this is almost impossible; you should theoretically always be behind going into the mid game
Can't you get charge, maybe +1 armor/attack and your 3rd? You get ready to farg him hard at middle of map with chargelots stalkers + phoenixes. Techpath: chargelot/archon into doublerobo colo.
If he went for Blink-Expand his natural transition is Chargelot/Archon aswell, so there is no point in doing the same but slower.
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i don't really know how to defend the forge for the sake of the build, but to me it's cheaper 1 base detection and it's not like adding a robo will suddenly give you the ability to pressure a fast expansion. take it as you will
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I just have one question with phoenix builds. I don't know what to do when the other player goes phoenix too. It seems I can never win. I just keep spamming phoenix if he has any more phoenix than me he wins.
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On March 20 2012 07:55 -MoOsE- wrote:
I just have one question with phoenix builds. I don't know what to do when the other player goes phoenix too. It seems I can never win. I just keep spamming phoenix if he has any more phoenix than me he wins.
Here's a trick I learned from a 1v1 with some random GM player:
1 SG Phoenix
Scout opponent going 1 SG Phoenix
-> 2 SG Phoenix
+1 Air Weapons
Hallucination
Then when you engage, have as many hallucinated Phoenix as possible. You'll win for sure as you'll lose little to nothing (especially if he doesn't have +1 Air Weapons) and won't be able to come back in the game. He's also less likely to have proper detection during the engagement due to investing in a SG instead of a Robo.
If he goes double SG Pheonix, you should still win because of the Hallu/+1 weapons.
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On March 20 2012 08:42 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 07:55 -MoOsE- wrote:
I just have one question with phoenix builds. I don't know what to do when the other player goes phoenix too. It seems I can never win. I just keep spamming phoenix if he has any more phoenix than me he wins. Here's a trick I learned from a 1v1 with some random GM player: 1 SG Phoenix Scout opponent going 1 SG Phoenix -> 2 SG Phoenix +1 Air Weapons Hallucination Then when you engage, have as many hallucinated Phoenix as possible. You'll win for sure as you'll lose little to nothing (especially if he doesn't have +1 Air Weapons) and won't be able to come back in the game. He's also less likely to have proper detection during the engagement due to investing in a SG instead of a Robo. If he goes double SG Pheonix, you should still win because of the Hallu/+1 weapons.
this.
i tried 2 sg and going for phoenix range once or twice after getting +1 (when i was already ahead, too!)... and it's awful-- too much wasted gas and phoenix range is pretty much negligible though it seems like it would be strong. have been going 2sg +1 and have heard of the hallu trick but haven't seen many phoenix users recently
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On March 20 2012 08:42 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 07:55 -MoOsE- wrote:
I just have one question with phoenix builds. I don't know what to do when the other player goes phoenix too. It seems I can never win. I just keep spamming phoenix if he has any more phoenix than me he wins. Here's a trick I learned from a 1v1 with some random GM player: 1 SG Phoenix Scout opponent going 1 SG Phoenix -> 2 SG Phoenix +1 Air Weapons Hallucination Then when you engage, have as many hallucinated Phoenix as possible. You'll win for sure as you'll lose little to nothing (especially if he doesn't have +1 Air Weapons) and won't be able to come back in the game. He's also less likely to have proper detection during the engagement due to investing in a SG instead of a Robo. If he goes double SG Pheonix, you should still win because of the Hallu/+1 weapons.
I dont get it. Whats the point of paying 100 Gas per Phoenix-Hallu (unless the Sentry is fully charged, which takes a really long time) instead of building an actual Phoenix for the same amount of Gas. Especially if you are going 2 Star anyways and considering all the drawbacks of Hallucination like limited time of use, no dmg, need to protect the sentries and even greater casualities if he tags his phoenix to yours unprepared.
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On March 20 2012 08:49 Xanatoss wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 08:42 CecilSunkure wrote:On March 20 2012 07:55 -MoOsE- wrote:
I just have one question with phoenix builds. I don't know what to do when the other player goes phoenix too. It seems I can never win. I just keep spamming phoenix if he has any more phoenix than me he wins. Here's a trick I learned from a 1v1 with some random GM player: 1 SG Phoenix Scout opponent going 1 SG Phoenix -> 2 SG Phoenix +1 Air Weapons Hallucination Then when you engage, have as many hallucinated Phoenix as possible. You'll win for sure as you'll lose little to nothing (especially if he doesn't have +1 Air Weapons) and won't be able to come back in the game. He's also less likely to have proper detection during the engagement due to investing in a SG instead of a Robo. If he goes double SG Pheonix, you should still win because of the Hallu/+1 weapons. I dont get it. Whats the point of paying 100 Gas per Phoenix-Hallu (unless the Sentry is fully charged, which takes a really long time) instead of building an actual Phoenix for the same amount of Gas. Especially if you are going 2 Star anyways and considering all the drawbacks of Hallucination like limited time of use, no dmg, need to protect the sentries and even greater casualities if he tags his phoenix to yours unprepared.
hallu penix are like pdds. they shoot what they will. unless of course there is detection in play but that won't usually happen unless obs speed is out O_O
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United States8476 Posts
Stargate vs Stargate is the dumbest shit in the world.
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On March 20 2012 08:52 NrGmonk wrote:
Stargate vs Stargate is the dumbest shit in the world.
what?!?! it's my favorite thing in the world. when i see their penix i am secretly wigglin over here.
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If you get a cannon+forge instead of robo+obs how do you deal with blink obs if you can't snipe the observer?
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On March 20 2012 08:52 NrGmonk wrote:
Stargate vs Stargate is the dumbest shit in the world.
Trufax rite here.
On March 20 2012 08:57 CrazyF1r3f0x wrote:
If you get a cannon+forge instead of robo+obs how do you deal with blink obs if you can't snipe the observer?
I don't really think a sniping of the Observer is required, is it? You have a lot of units to press the Blink Stalkers away.
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On March 20 2012 08:57 CrazyF1r3f0x wrote:
If you get a cannon+forge instead of robo+obs how do you deal with blink obs if you can't snipe the observer?
the detection range of a cannon is greater than the sight range of an obs. i've gone up to 2 cannons to zone obs.. sounds nooby as hell i know.. i have done a retarded amount of exploration in this haha.
though it should put you behind the second you place the cannon, i actually love it for the denial of tech scouting later. double robo? triple robo? do w/e the hell you want their obs will never go near it. knowledge of robo bay vs. archon should incite drastically different reactions
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that settles it. monk cecil gogo ffa penix vs penix vs penix gogo
edit: maybe not. either way both pm me char codes anyway
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On March 20 2012 08:54 Alejandrisha wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 08:52 NrGmonk wrote:
Stargate vs Stargate is the dumbest shit in the world. what?!?! it's my favorite thing in the world. when i see their penix i am secretly wigglin over here.
Same here. I am so glad I have the mirror with Star vs Star instead of Bane vs Bane. Like a Sir!
On March 20 2012 08:51 Alejandrisha wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 08:49 Xanatoss wrote:On March 20 2012 08:42 CecilSunkure wrote:On March 20 2012 07:55 -MoOsE- wrote:
I just have one question with phoenix builds. I don't know what to do when the other player goes phoenix too. It seems I can never win. I just keep spamming phoenix if he has any more phoenix than me he wins. Here's a trick I learned from a 1v1 with some random GM player: 1 SG Phoenix Scout opponent going 1 SG Phoenix -> 2 SG Phoenix +1 Air Weapons Hallucination Then when you engage, have as many hallucinated Phoenix as possible. You'll win for sure as you'll lose little to nothing (especially if he doesn't have +1 Air Weapons) and won't be able to come back in the game. He's also less likely to have proper detection during the engagement due to investing in a SG instead of a Robo. If he goes double SG Pheonix, you should still win because of the Hallu/+1 weapons. I dont get it. Whats the point of paying 100 Gas per Phoenix-Hallu (unless the Sentry is fully charged, which takes a really long time) instead of building an actual Phoenix for the same amount of Gas. Especially if you are going 2 Star anyways and considering all the drawbacks of Hallucination like limited time of use, no dmg, need to protect the sentries and even greater casualities if he tags his phoenix to yours unprepared. hallu penix are like pdds. they shoot what they will. unless of course there is detection in play but that won't usually happen unless obs speed is out O_O
How about a PDD that SHOOTS BACK for the same Gas? 
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Mmmm, I'm not getting the hallucinate part either
You basically have only one sentry so getting hallucination for 100 gas gives you at most 2 half life phoenixes that do 0 dps instead of 1 real phoenix (since you can't produce constant phoenix out of 2 stargates).
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On March 20 2012 09:49 Geiko wrote:Mmmm, I'm not getting the hallucinate part either You basically have only one sentry so getting hallucination for 100 gas gives you at most 2 half life phoenixes that do 0 dps instead of 1 real phoenix (since you can't produce constant phoenix out of 2 stargates).
The 2 Star is refering to a 2 Base Followup due to the fact that Phoenix-Mirror most likely results in both players expanding and the fact that even a single Stargate sucks up all the Gas from one base if chronoboosted from time to time.
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I'd like to watch the replays where the opponent has Blink and immediately expands upon seeing your phoenixes, but I'm not sure how to sort these out from the rest. Is there any easy way of doing this?
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On March 20 2012 10:07 Xanatoss wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 09:49 Geiko wrote:Mmmm, I'm not getting the hallucinate part either You basically have only one sentry so getting hallucination for 100 gas gives you at most 2 half life phoenixes that do 0 dps instead of 1 real phoenix (since you can't produce constant phoenix out of 2 stargates). The 2 Star is referencing to a 2 Base Followup due to the fact that Phoenix-Mirror most likely results in both players expanding and the fact that even a single Stargate sucks up all the Gas from one base if chronoboosted from time to time.
I don't believe you can make constant chronoboosted phoenix out of 2 stargates on 4 gas either though. (or can you ?)
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On March 20 2012 10:14 Geiko wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 10:07 Xanatoss wrote:On March 20 2012 09:49 Geiko wrote:Mmmm, I'm not getting the hallucinate part either You basically have only one sentry so getting hallucination for 100 gas gives you at most 2 half life phoenixes that do 0 dps instead of 1 real phoenix (since you can't produce constant phoenix out of 2 stargates). The 2 Star is referencing to a 2 Base Followup due to the fact that Phoenix-Mirror most likely results in both players expanding and the fact that even a single Stargate sucks up all the Gas from one base if chronoboosted from time to time. I don't believe you can make constant chronoboosted phoenix out of 2 stargates on 4 gas either though. (or can you ?)
Yes you can
At least I tried constantly chronopumping out of 1 stargate, 2 gas in lower speed and it worked perfectly. Should be the same.
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how do you deal with someone opening DT, then transitioning into 1base chargelot archon?
this always kills the shit out of me. =[ the DT's don't do any damage, but the chargelots and the splash from the archons fucks me up.
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On March 20 2012 10:07 Xanatoss wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 09:49 Geiko wrote:Mmmm, I'm not getting the hallucinate part either You basically have only one sentry so getting hallucination for 100 gas gives you at most 2 half life phoenixes that do 0 dps instead of 1 real phoenix (since you can't produce constant phoenix out of 2 stargates). The 2 Star is referencing to a 2 Base Followup due to the fact that Phoenix-Mirror most likely results in both players expanding and the fact that even a single Stargate sucks up all the Gas from one base if chronoboosted from time to time.
No it doesn't if you expand in a stargate mirror you will die... you can't even forcefield the ramp since you won't have sentries since your gas is going into phoenixes . Trust me I've killed so many stargate mirror players by just all inning them after their expansion has finished...
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it's unwise to expand blindly in phoenix vs phoenix without knowing their infrastructure, or if you can get the infrastructure information by having a phoenix lead. i will always expand after my opponent. kcdc knows about that you sneaky guy you tt
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http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=254353
guess who is the god of PvP? funny thing is i did this even before the ramp change and nobody thought that it would work even though i beat GM level all round :-/... i have been constantly update my forge phoenix build and quite sure i had 80% wr PvP on some certain map for PvP
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On March 20 2012 12:42 Protossking wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 10:07 Xanatoss wrote:On March 20 2012 09:49 Geiko wrote:Mmmm, I'm not getting the hallucinate part either You basically have only one sentry so getting hallucination for 100 gas gives you at most 2 half life phoenixes that do 0 dps instead of 1 real phoenix (since you can't produce constant phoenix out of 2 stargates). The 2 Star is referencing to a 2 Base Followup due to the fact that Phoenix-Mirror most likely results in both players expanding and the fact that even a single Stargate sucks up all the Gas from one base if chronoboosted from time to time. No it doesn't if you expand in a stargate mirror you will die... you can't even forcefield the ramp since you won't have sentries since your gas is going into phoenixes . Trust me I've killed so many stargate mirror players by just all inning them after their expansion has finished...
Did I say anything about expanding instantly? Oc you have to make sure your opponent ist playing "by the rules" and keeps producing phoenixes. But as you said yourself, all Gas is going into Phoenixes which narrows the possible All-Ins a lot. And if he cuts Phoenixes to get anything except Zealots and Gateways his Phoenixes just get overrun. Besides that you cant FF your Ramp for long anyways with that single Sentry one gets before identifying the Phoenix-Mirror.
My point is that a Phoenix-Mirror eventually leads to more expansions on both sides than in most other scenarios.
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ugh pvp phoenix vs phoenix makes me want to rip my eyes out. For the longest time I would go phoenix but now everyone just 4 gates or blink all ins me so I've switched my style. But having a good phoenix build for a passive robo player is great. Definately Id do to someone like liquid tyler. The amount of probes you can kill puts you so far ahead.
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I'm using a delayed Phoenix PvP build which has some trouble against greedy early Stargate builds and 1 gate stargate builds in general. Anyone here want to do some practice games of phoenix mirror on the EU server ? (PM me character code)
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Thanks for the replays
I was using 2 Gates Robo to get Fast Inmortal (Only 2 of them and Observer), then Expand and get a Stargate, so Phoenix like until 6 of them...
After Fenix Twilight to upgrade Charge, ending with Inmortal, ChargeLot, Fenix (targetting Colossi, Snipping Sentries, or even Zealots), and it was really good
Breaking FF was a problem but then there was the need of getting Archon (usually, using the Phoenix to snipe the Colossi and Sentires it was not much necessary)
I will try with your open from now on, and see how it works, thanks for keep trying things on PvP constantly
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Too bad i'm at school now. Will defenitely check the replays all, since I really love Phoenix lately.
I haven't been using them in the first 2 years of Starcraft II, because I was working on other things, which made it difficult for me to focus on effective Phoenix control.
Nowadays I use it a lot more, and will see how it is used in the replays posted here.
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I really like phoenix in pvp, and I've been using them for a few months now.
The most annoying thing for me is either phoenix vs phoenix (I usually just try to expand ASAP with that), or as Alej mentioned in the OP: someone who goes defensive blink and expands.
Blink rushes were giving me some trouble for a while, but my robotics timing allows me to chrono one or two immortals out if I scout that coming.
Also I love following up with colossus, either 1 or 2 robo depending on what the other guy is doing. Your tech will usually be ahead of the other guy since he needs to make stalkers/cannons/blink so if you cut some corners and chrono out upgrades and econ you can just turtle the whole game while keeping an eye out for any 2 base timings with phoenix + tower control.
Here are a few of my replays from master league NA:
http://drop.sc/139653 -- holding a blink rush into turtle deathball win
http://drop.sc/139654 -- vs a 3 gate press into defensive blink expo. I go double robo colo and stay ahead of him in macro the whole game. The early stargate also means you usually get your mothership before he does, which opens up a pretty nice lategame timing.
http://drop.sc/139659 -- holding a 1 base immortal bust after expanding behind some phoenix. Even though my defense was a bit sloppy, the extra warp ins at the end + probe pull overwhelmed his all-in.
I have some other fun replays as well, like holding absurdly scary pushes with phoenix+dt but I can't find them right now. And I'm starting not to go into DT as much anymore because it just seems a bit too scrappy, if you can't snipe his obs quick enough then you are in big trouble.
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Finally someone has the stargate opening figured out in PvP, Im very impressed by the high win rates, but that is of no surprise as the metagame in pvp is still robo and or twilight heavy strats, and stargate counters those tech paths fairly well.
however the only concern is safely opening with stargate without being too greedy, scouting shouldn't be a problem since phoenix has such great mobility, but investing heavily in air units early on hinders the production of gateway units, and 1 gate into sg really cant deal with a build that puts on heavy pressure, something like a delayed 4 gate or a 3 gate blink at 7 min, a lot of the replays does prove my point, but once having 5-6 phoenix and a sizable groud force, this build becomes extremely powerful.
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I just want you to know whenever people go phoenix in PvP win or lose after the game i say "Thanks for not 4gating me and not making me want to throw my computer out the window :D"
question: If someone was already going Blink stalkers and shuts down your Phoenix play what do you do after?
Also, what do you do after doing harass after awhile and expand? What do you transition to? If you try to go Collosus your probably way behind their tech. Going Archons is a far route.
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On March 22 2012 11:50 DreamChaser wrote:
I just want you to know whenever people go phoenix in PvP win or lose after the game i say "Thanks for not 4gating me and not making me want to throw my computer out the window :D"
question: If someone was already going Blink stalkers and shuts down your Phoenix play what do you do after?
Also, what do you do after doing harass after awhile and expand? What do you transition to? If you try to go Collosus your probably way behind their tech. Going Archons is a far route.
I feel transitioning into robo and going for a few immortal is very strong, but you can play safe and expand while harassing, depending on their tech choices, a transition to colossus, chargelot archon is very solid in late game.
but if they went for a passive blink and expo, a strong counter would be getting 2-3 immortals and mass up zealots for a one base all in, i have seen a lot of pro players on ladder and having a lot of success with this style.
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so i tried playing the 1 gate phoenix for quite a while and i was having trouble with delayed gateway rushes if I went robo after stargate and dts/blink if I went 3 gate phoenix. Then I watched boyo stream and he goes 12 gate and makes zealot sentry sentry with second gas around 21 (i get it at 18 with a scout at second pylon which allows for a 17 core without cutting probes and spend all chrono on warpgate unless he is playing greedy in which case either pool chrono for phoenixes or chorno more probes until i match his chrono) gets second gate to make a 1 zealot choke at the ramp and like a 4:50 stargate which is maybe 5-10 seconds later than 1 gate stargate but it provides a lot in return. For one thing he has the minerals for about a 5:30 robo (much faster than getting a robo with the zealot stalker stalker sentry 1 gate phoenix build that robo comes out like a minute later) without cutting into phoenix production which makes it a great deal easier to deal with dt/blink depending on what you scout with phoenix and also because you have the sentries so fast you have at least 3 force fields for any kind of delayed warp gate pushes which give you enough time to chrono out an immortal and not take any damage. The fast immortals allow you to expo and harass with phoenix without worrying about a counter killing you. Ive held all of the zealot archon all ins ive played so far off of blink expo with no effort by getting 2 robo colossus and pylon wall while counter lifting their probes essentially winning the game at about a 7-8 hundred master level from this phoenix opener and all 4 gates where I didnt miss a ramp force field. A warp prism 4 gate might be tricky but other than that I dont see any other advantages the 1 gate phoenix forge build has over this. If anyone has any thoughts on this over alejs build which he was a thread about, please post, and if ur interested in the build just watch vods from boyo's stream, hes top 50 gm and does it a lot.
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Thanks Alej! This build is a lot of fun. Just got my first win with it. 27 worker kills ^^
Keep up the good work!
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EPT
