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1. Focusing medivacs is bad?
You realize that the faster you can focus fire a medivac down, the less marines can unload or get healed. It ALSO destroys a push such that they cannot stim again.
0/0 vs 0/0, no stim, no combat shield
8 Mutas vs 8 marines + Medivac = 6-6-7 (~6)
8 Mutas vs 8 Marines + Medivac, Focusing Medivac = 5-4-5 (~5)
Where did you get this idea that focusing medivacs was a good idea? Do you have any data or any reason you say what you say, because it sounds an awfully lot like you have no idea what you are talking about.
I just tested it, and it's pretty obvious that you should NOT focus the medivac.
Of course, there are in-game scenarios where you'd want to focus down a medivac (attacking a drop and your ground army is there and you want to be active with mutas, so you snipe medivac so your mutas can leave and you can clean up with lings, this also prevents T from sniping mutas with found drop when you can just use lings to clean it up).
But in a combat scenario? No way.
Please. If you ask, that's fine. But stating something as fact when you clearly have no clue what you are talking about, and never tested it...
I challenge you to try marine+medivac again with your mutas, but this time you snipe the medivac and fly away, and reengage.
Too much human interference, I fear the results would not be reliable or consistent. I'll do a quick test though.
8 Mutas vs 8 marines + Medivac = 6-6-7 (~6)
8 Mutas vs 8 Marines + Medivac, Focusing Medivac, leaving, going back =
I stopped, these results are way worse than just sniping the medivac alone and staying to engage...
2. Attack does help against SCVs, the bounce is increased.
Not completely true, attack does not improve bounce damage. Attack does not scale +1/+1/+1, but rather a faction, so +1/fraction/fraction. Given how SCV2 calculates damage, you don't always get an improvement.
1 Muta vs 3 SCVs, bounce damage test:
Attack Upgrade Level = Main Hit/Bounce1/Bounce2
0 = -9/-3/-1
1 = -10/-4/-2
2 = -11/-4/-2
3 = -12/-4/-2
So +1 attack may help, but further upgrades do not help with bounce.
Furthermore, you would need +3 attack on your mutas to change the critical hit numbers to kill SCVs. Given how complicated bounce works though, I don't think upgrades really change much in terms of how to deal with SCVs.
Another test!
How many volleys for 1 mutalisk, with X upgrade, to kill 4 SCVs.
0 = 16
1 = 15
2 = 14
3 = 13
In short, bounce did not make a significant difference in how many hits it took to kill an SCV (you would think with bounce, it would give more than a 1 difference in shots to kill).
3. Difference between 1-shotting a turret and 2-shotting a turret will decide whether SCVs get around to repairing or not, which can change the outcome of the game.
Is this a joke? +1 attack isn't going to be that dramatic a difference, nor will any upgrade. Also, +1 carapace would simply mean you could survive more turrets shots and deal more damage to the SCVs. Either T repairs in time, or he doesn't. Upgrade isn't going to make a huge difference on that...
4. Muta timings do not mean a timing where I go in with all my mutas and units when I hit an upgrade, it means that:
At 12 minute mark - I have +1 attack done - I can therefore do more damage than the enemy expects, resulting in him bringing too little marines to defend or not having enough stuff just because of this specific timing.
You are better off with 13 0/0 mutas at 12 minute than 12 1/0 mutas at 12 minutes. You would do more damage,a nd you can engage better.
What you say here makes absolutely zero sense. Your 1 additional muta flock will fare much better at 'doing damage more than the enemy expects' than a +1 armor muta, than a +1 attack muta flock.
5. When you have 30 mutas, you're probably already upgrading your greater spire. If you're starting your 0-2 now, guess what, you cant. You will have 0-1 broodlords instead of 1-2. Yes, this is extremely important in the scope of the game. If you don't plan on teching to broodlords, I doubt you'll be getting enough mutas (15) to warrant upgrades anyways.
Don't be a troll. It's pretty obvious GS timings aren't included in this analysis.
Also, I would argue that, if you macro well, having 0/1 broodlords out quicker instead of 1/2 broodlords later, is better. I will be doing a broodlord analysis later.
Maybe you should go into unit tester. You are full of these presumptions that have no basis in any testing or fact. See if what you say has any merit. Because you are just pulling out these 'facts' from no where, and it turns out they aren't even true.
6. Having 1-0 attack does something really magical. It increases the damage of single-target damage by a large percentage. The reason why getting 1 extra muta seems so good is because it loses effectiveness at a lower rate when you are being shot at, and because the full damage of bounces are calculated.
You are aware an extra mutalisk will add more damage too right? And you are aware that having "1 carapace is magical too" because you survive more shots?
Also, the whole thing about mutas is that attack is so worthless, because the bounces don't benefit from attack upgrades.
However, what mutas really need is single-target damage. Would you rather kill a depot and do 100 damage to another or deal 350 damage to one and 200 to another?
I would rather do maximum damage with minimum losses. With carapace, you can stick around longer due to being able to survive more shots. With no carapace, you must leave immediately. With an extra muta, you both deal more damage and survive more.
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The beef I have with your calculations is because you tell us that it is non-conclusive, and then you subsequently tells everyone that they must do what you do because it is factual. Make up your mind.
Do what you want with the data. You can continue playing with how you 'feel', or you can use actual data and facts to guide your choices in the game. The tests here are simply an attempt to find an empirical way to prove what the best choices are.
Even if a real game has differences, like maxing out, or you want to go hive with upgrades, it should lead you to make some new choices - Like don't start the upgrade immediately when spire finishes in ZvT, but rather, make the ~10 mutas first, then get the upgrade. Go for carapace instead of attack. Go for 1/1 in ZvP instead of 2/0. Go for 1/3 in ZvZ instead of 2/2. Race on upgrades in ZvZ. Et cetera.
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i still think upgrades are somewhat important for mutas:
a) you did not account for enemy upgrades. I would get +1 attack on mutas any day if it means i can clear up a nasty drop with mutas alone. Sure, if your opponent has 0/0 upgrades getting an extra muta will be better. But try to kill marines with 2 or 3 armor gettting healed by a medivac with your 0/0 mutas.
b) i am human and therefore screw up. If i screw up, my mutas die. Now, if i had one extra muta that muta would most probably have died as well. When i decide to get mutas again, upgrade will help, extra dead muta will not.
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On February 18 2012 05:18 Belial88 wrote:
There's nothing in this thread about lings and banes. Irrelevant. However, most people are aware that for ling/bane, you should only get +1 carapace, and further upgrades aren't that important the higher the siege tank count (+1 siege tanks will always 2 shot ling/bane, but +0 tanks 3 shot +1 lings, that's why +1 carapace is important midgame upgrade). So you just go for melee on single evo. But that's another topic, and something people know already.
While that point is true for the inner area of siege tank splash, that inner area comprises only 14% of the entire splash area of siege tank fire.
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On February 18 2012 06:41 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +The beef I have with your calculations is because you tell us that it is non-conclusive, and then you subsequently tells everyone that they must do what you do because it is factual. Make up your mind. Do what you want with the data. You can continue playing with how you 'feel', or you can use actual data and facts to guide your choices in the game. The tests here are simply an attempt to find an empirical way to prove what the best choices are. Even if a real game has differences, like maxing out, or you want to go hive with upgrades, it should lead you to make some new choices - Like don't start the upgrade immediately when spire finishes in ZvT, but rather, make the ~10 mutas first, then get the upgrade. Go for carapace instead of attack. Go for 1/1 in ZvP instead of 2/0. Go for 1/3 in ZvZ instead of 2/2. Race on upgrades in ZvZ. Et cetera.
Look, I agree with your go for attack first in ZvP and I don't agree with 1/1 instead of 2/0. But whatever. And I pretty much agree with your point in ZvZ, except you should never go beyond 1/2 realistically.
You should have 1k gas when you pop mutas in a muta build that it shouldn't matter. And how many times have we talked about the merits of attack that makes attack/carapace a preference/stylistic choice. But ZvT is not a game of -attack the marines-. There are almost always units underneath attracting marine fire, and you almost always want to snipe stuff (refer to the "sweet spot" argument). Anytime you are engaging marine DRG style, you are playing stylistically different from many players. Yes, I would also argue that you would want carapace with that style, but not everyone does that. What you are telling people is "Always get extra muta, then carapace, then attack".
In the way I play however, I find attack more useful because of the reasons listed. And I don't wanna ad-hominem you but, I can tell from obsing your games that your use of muta is completely wrong.
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On February 18 2012 06:49 Jombozeus wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2012 06:41 Belial88 wrote:The beef I have with your calculations is because you tell us that it is non-conclusive, and then you subsequently tells everyone that they must do what you do because it is factual. Make up your mind. Do what you want with the data. You can continue playing with how you 'feel', or you can use actual data and facts to guide your choices in the game. The tests here are simply an attempt to find an empirical way to prove what the best choices are. Even if a real game has differences, like maxing out, or you want to go hive with upgrades, it should lead you to make some new choices - Like don't start the upgrade immediately when spire finishes in ZvT, but rather, make the ~10 mutas first, then get the upgrade. Go for carapace instead of attack. Go for 1/1 in ZvP instead of 2/0. Go for 1/3 in ZvZ instead of 2/2. Race on upgrades in ZvZ. Et cetera. Look, I agree with your go for attack first in ZvP and I don't agree with 1/1 instead of 2/0. But whatever. And I pretty much agree with your point in ZvZ, except you should never go beyond 1/2 realistically. You should have 1k gas when you pop mutas in a muta build that it shouldn't matter. And how many times have we talked about the merits of attack that makes attack/carapace a preference/stylistic choice. But ZvT is not a game of -attack the marines-. There are almost always units underneath attracting marine fire, and you almost always want to snipe stuff (refer to the "sweet spot" argument). Anytime you are engaging marine DRG style, you are playing stylistically different from many players. Yes, I would also argue that you would want carapace with that style, but not everyone does that. What you are telling people is "Always get extra muta, then carapace, then attack". In the way I play however, I find attack more useful because of the reasons listed. And I don't wanna ad-hominem you but, I can tell from obsing your games that your use of muta is completely wrong.
"Do what you want with the data. You can continue playing with how you 'feel', or you can use actual data and facts to guide your choices in the game. The tests here are simply an attempt to find an empirical way to prove what the best choices are."
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Wait so I argue that +1 is good because of the additional bounce, you say I'm completely wrong and then post a few lines down that "+1 attack may help"...also people get carapace in zvz because of how much it negates the glaive damage. Usually +1 attack and carapace upgrades are the way to go. don't spread misinformation on me being wrong. We aren't discussing zvz anyways.
Again, I do appreciate when people take the time to run tests and get data. It opens many people's eyes to new aspects of the game at times. However in this situation the raw data does not transition into actual gameplay well.
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1 Broodlord (armor) vs 1 Vikings (attack), shots to die.
0 vs 0 = 9
1 vs 0 = 10
2 vs 0 = 11
3 vs 0 = 12
0 vs 1 = 9
1 vs 1 = 9
2 vs 1 = 10
3 vs 1 = 11
0 vs 2 = 8
1 vs 2 = 9
2 vs 2 = 9
3 vs 2 = 10
0 vs 3 = 8
1 vs 3 = 8
2 vs 3 = 9
3 vs 3 = 9
It is also worth noting that melee upgrades on broodlings are almost double the dps increase than broodlord air attack. Broodlords get .8 dps increase, while broodlings get 1.5.
It's hard to test how air attack stacks up with broodlords, but I think it's safe to say that FG, siege tanks splash, and broodlings are a larger source of the damage.
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Wait so I argue that +1 is good because of the additional bounce, you say I'm completely wrong and then post a few lines down that "+1 attack may help"...also people get carapace in zvz because of how much it negates the glaive damage. Usually +1 attack and carapace upgrades are the way to go. don't spread misinformation on me being wrong. We aren't discussing zvz anyways.
I said that attack doesn't benefit glaive. But, I did a quick test, and it showed that +1 attack benefits the glaive damage, while +2 and +3 do nothing for glaive bounce. Regardless, attack does not benefit glaive that much, so my original statement still stands, but I was surprised that +1 benefits glaive at all - I thought +1 and +2 did nothing for glaive, and it was +3 where glaive bounce got marginally improved.
I don't spread misinformation, I'm posting exactly what the results of these limited tests show. Feel free to do better tests.
People get +1 carapace in ZvZ because they know it's better. Now, people should be better informed about upgrades in all match-ups.
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I'm surprised how many people just completely ignore the results. If you want to do testing that shows results otherwise - maybe you can prove attack upgrade is worthy for sniping buildings, for example, than go for it. But I'm amazed how many people will see this post, and just argue against it. I feel like I'm saying the world is round here or something.
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Its a pretty well known fact that +1 attack is the only one that benefits glaive...which is why I mengtioned it. You don't understand why people get carapace in zvz. Its not just "its better" always. When it comes to muta vs muta carapace is better because the glaive bounces are almost completely negated when attacking two muta flocks. However if you're fighting nonmutas with your own thinking about +1 attack etc is the better choice. You are spreading misinformation in the fact that you just wrote that you didn't know +1 attack is where glaive damage is effected and have been arguing with the mindset attack upgrades don't benefit glaive until +3.
I don't want to "better" tests myself. You posted on an internet forum that is used for discussion and that is all I'm doing. You can't expect to post up online without being willing to take criticism and advice. As I've stated I appreciate you taking the time to run the tests you did. A lot of your other posts I've read are very helpful and are well thoughtout as well. However, this one I can't agree with.
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Its a pretty well known fact that +1 attack is the only one that benefits glaive...which is why I mengtioned it.
I did not know it. I knew about the whole 1/.333/.11 thing, but I assumed that it only kicked in to a full point of damage at +3, not +1 or 2.
You don't understand why people get carapace in zvz. Its not just "its better" always. When it comes to muta vs muta carapace is better because the glaive bounces are almost completely negated when attacking two muta flocks.
Yes, I am aware of this. If I wasn't before, the test here made it painfully obvious. ZvZ muta vs muta is actually the only situations where upgrades are extremely important. In ZvT I recommended you delay upgrades significantly, in ZvP you get +1 and maybe some others slowly, but in ZvZ, it's absolutely crucial that you get upgrades asap. I considered even double spire for ZvZ, but the gas cost is too much for another spire.
However if you're fighting nonmutas with your own thinking about +1 attack etc is the better choice.
Obviously. I made that pretty clear already.
. You are spreading misinformation in the fact that you just wrote that you didn't know +1 attack is where glaive damage is effected and have been arguing with the mindset attack upgrades don't benefit glaive until +3.
No... I actually tested this. I didn't put this all on a calculator you know.
I don't want to "better" tests myself. You posted on an internet forum that is used for discussion and that is all I'm doing. You can't expect to post up online without being willing to take criticism and advice. As I've stated I appreciate you taking the time to run the tests you did. A lot of your other posts I've read are very helpful and are well thoughtout as well. However, this one I can't agree with.
Besides you being quite rude, it seems you largely agree with the findings and posts I've made. I'm not sure what your issue is.
As for criticism and advice, I don't mind, but it's largely just people saying BUT I GET ATTACK TO SNIPE K? over and over without testing this claim. It'd be one thing if they asked "Could you do some sort of test to see what's better in regards to sniping stuff?" but they don't.
And then for you, well, you seem to agree with what I say, so I don't really understand what you are saying besides you keep harping on me for "misinformation" although it doesn't make sense why.
All I said was I always thought that the air attack worked as +1/+.33/+11, and thus, it was only at +3 it kicked in. Apparently, the sc2 system works a bit differently, and kicks it in at +1. I tested this, and showed this to be true. So, I realy don't know what you are getting at. My original thought never even came up.
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Interesting tests ..
afaik at least in ZvT most pros first get like 10-20 mutas before getting +1 attack. Because the upgrade takes a while, it finishes when they are about 20-30 mutas (if they commit). I think the reason why they build it slightly "too early" is that the upgrade take such a long time, so they'd have to few upgrades when they go for blords.
On another note; getting an extra muta is much faster than waiting for an upgrade, so even ZvZ it is probably better to get more mutas as the game might be already decided once your upgrade finishes ..
props for do-it-yourself SC2 nerding instead of simply trusting common sayings 
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^ I think the tests showed than in ZvZ you really want to go for carapace instead of that extra mutalisk.
Feel free to do whatever you want. Better players have gone for attack, carapace, extra muta, and even double spire. I'm just simply trying to make sense of the variance we see even in pro play on upgrades.
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Thisll be my last post in this thread as I don't just want to spam it up anymore than its been. If I wanted to be rude I would have been. There were many more hostile posts. I didn't just say "you're wrong close thread" I attempted to argue my point in a civil way. I even applauded your efforts as you took the time to test something out that no one else did.
I agree with what you're sayin in regards to the specific scenario you enacted in your tests. However in an actual game there are many other concerns that will change the importance of an upgrade and the like. Timings, available gas, larva, map positioning overall unit comp of both sides etc. The situation just doesn't transition to actual gameplay as well as you'd like. Someone could run tests on the optimal number of marines needed to kill 4 collosus but forcefields, tanking units etc also need to be considered for the numbers to fit into actual gameplay. That's where the "I get attack to snipe" argument works. If every game fit the scenario you tested no one would be arguing. However, its not.
No hard feelings either way. As I previously said you've made some great points in other threads. There's no reason to go completely into the defensive and call everyone elses comments plain wrong and acting like other members are stupid. For now ill do things my way and you can do it yours
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So if you a-move mutas against an enemy force, then +1 muta is better than +1 attack.
But what about the following other situations?
1) What if you a-move mutas against an enemy, but you also have other forces that are soaking up the damage, i.e. zerglings. Then the extra damage from +1 attack would be better than the extra life of the +1 muta.
2) What if you're not doing direct engagements with your mutas at all, but instead picking off units without getting hit back? Then the extra damage from the +1 attack is also better.
Basically what I'm saying is that if your mutas are not getting hit too much, then +1 attack is better. I think there are times when the short term advantage of an extra muta makes a lot of sense, but the long term gains of the +1 attack is more valuable if you can afford it.
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The tests showed that:
1. Micro (besides pulling away hurt mutas) is detrimental. This is due to glaive bounce making focus fire kind of unpredictable, and the high dps making anything where you stop shooting even for a split second, is detrimental.
2. +1 carapace just makes the mutas live longer, and therefore deal more damage. Marines are low damage, low armor units, so upgrades in general are useful against them and generally just a +1 hit to kill -1 hit to die kind of unit. There's a reason why carapace is more expensive, and it's because the longer mutas live, the more damage they can do.
But what about the following other situations?
1) What if you a-move mutas against an enemy, but you also have other forces that are soaking up the damage, i.e. zerglings. Then the extra damage from +1 attack would be better than the extra life of the +1 muta.
2) What if you're not doing direct engagements with your mutas at all, but instead picking off units without getting hit back? Then the extra damage from the +1 attack is also better.
1. Well the enemy could focus fire the mutas. But I don't know, that's interesting. I'll try to test it later.
2. As I've said, +1 carapace also means you can survive more shots and be a bit more cavalier with your mutas. I did a test where 15 mutas snipe a tank protected by 15 stimmed marines, and the 1 additional muta ball killed the tank with more mutas left over, followed by carapace, followed by attack.
You can use your mutas however you like. If you really think you will never get hit with your mutas, of course, go for attack.
But I think these results show, that in a real game, when you will get attacked, when you will have to engage sometimes, and and when enemy units are present, it's better to have +1 carapace so you can take more shots. No terran will have a bse where there are zero marines, zero turrets. With carapace, or even more so with an extra muta, you can be a bit more cavalier with your mutas.
And there's still always drops you have to deal with. The tests showed which best dealt with drops, really.
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interesting, people go for +1 because the mutalisk is an harassment unit, which means you do damage and then run. Thats why its unimportant how much hp your muta group has. the damage is what counts. And against 0 armor you want your +1 air attack to finish when you hit 12ish mutas, against missile turrets canons.
Though i would encourage +2 building armor for terran, even if it means 3 ebays. Since the building upgrades in general hit zerg players off guard. that rely so heavily on weak fast attacking units in the early game vs terran.
Anyway back to the research on muta upgrades, are the marines 0/0. or since a terran will atleast have 1 upgrade, when you have to decide on one. (usually they go for attack since its better for sniping mutas, but if they would have to fight directly they would go for +1 armor. But normally they have eough gas for 1/1).
So for harassment every damage counts not survivability, and if you want to go for broodlords later on you want those attack upgrades for your corrupters (and armor for broodlords since the longer they survive the more army they produce), so getting the upgrades early saves you the second spire.
Atleast 0/0 air isn't a good idea if you face +2 attack air of the opponent. And infestors can really just save your air dominance if the opponent lets you.
So yeah if you want to fight directly, you probably don't need upgrades in the early stages of muta play. But for the job mutas do, you want the attack upgrades to finish when you have your 12 mutas ready and also in preparation for the lategame.
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^ As I've stated in the OP, 3/3 or 0/0 did not change how upgrades stacked against eachother.
, people go for +1 because the mutalisk is an harassment unit, which means you do damage and then run.
If you justify it that way, go for it. But in a real game, you would run into turrets, and marines, and so forth. With an extra muta, or +1 carapace, you can stay around longer, you can be more cavalier with your mutas. I did an additional test to try to test this out as well.
You can do whatever you want with this data. I'm just showing that, say, you want to snipe a tank with at least 1 marine around it, an additional muta > carapace > attack. If you want to attack SCVs and he runs back his marines, you could use an additional muta to stick around longer to kill more SCVs, and even engage the marines for a short while until a number arrived that you were uncomfortable with. You could use this data to deal with drops - now, you knwo that an additional muta will better deal with a drop than +1 attack, so you could lose less mutas dealing with drops. Best of all, when an engagement occurs, you can best crush the push with an additional muta over carapace over attack.
I mean, I'd love to see a pro game where the zerg player *never* gets hit by a marine. I'd love to see a pro game where zerg ONLY uses ling/bane to crush every rine/tank push. But you will always face marines, and you will always face a choice of "Do I stay and harass more and take damage, or leave prematurely before killing off this depot?"
Also, if you watch pro players like DRG, they are EXTREMELY aggressive with their mutas, constantrly using their mutas to engage groups of marines ~5-10 less than their own muta flock. That's why he's the best muta player, because he can so efficiently take out marines with his mutas, and know when to.
Atleast 0/0 air isn't a good idea if you face +2 attack air of the opponent. And infestors can really just save your air dominance if the opponent lets you.
According to the broodlord test I did, you want +1 carapace against +2 air, but that's it.
I would also argue that it's best to get hive earlier rather than later, using the gas for hive instead of upgrades, but that's obviously up to you. Besides, in lategame, when your on high econ and maxed out, of course, go for upgrades. But if you get your broodlords when your opponent is 1/1 instead of at 3/2, of course, upgrades don't matter as much, because you got the broodlords out earlier.
I even tested, showing that 0/0 mutas with 1 more muta, does better against 3/3 marines than 1/0 or 0/1 mutas.
I mean, if this is such a hard concept to grasp, just continue playing as you do. I just would like to make sense of how to play, and use some empirical method to guide my decisions. If you like to get attack because you *never* get hit by marines, keep at it.
I think I've posted enough in here. It's the same questions over and over. If you care to read the thread, you may learn something. If you don't care to learn, why did you stop in here at all? Like it makes a lot of logical sense to go 3/0 mutas right away instead of just going 1/2 or 2/1 or more mutas. Whatever.
The information is out there. Do what you want with it.
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I always assumed the first attack upgrade was +1/+1/+1 rather than +1/+0/+0 on the bounces.
So in ZvZ I thought attack and carapace had the same effect, so attack was better being cheaper.
Also a lot of times you will be doing damage without taking damage, as mutalisks are harrass units rather than fighting units, which makes attack upgrade better.
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EPT
