EPTAbout the focus firing, I think that really depends on the situation. Wouldn't stutter stepping the mutas overcome the repositioning deficit?
[D]Upgrades on Mutalisks. - Page 3
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Spec
Taiwan931 Posts
About the focus firing, I think that really depends on the situation. Wouldn't stutter stepping the mutas overcome the repositioning deficit? | ||
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Grokken
Sweden245 Posts
On February 17 2012 14:42 DeCoup wrote: I know i'm a low level scrub, but isn't the muta primarily used as a 'harass' unit even in big numbers in that you want to do whatever damage you can and escape without taking losses? I think this is why carapace is the more popular choice? It does not matter how slowly you do the damage as long as you escape alive so you can attack again from another venerable angle. Carapace is not the more popular choice, and for a reason. You want to be able to do damage as fast as possible until the opponent comes to defend. Then you fly away and attack somewhere else. Carapace doesn't do anything if you arent getting hit in the first place. | ||
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Kharnage
Australia920 Posts
Carapace is awesome cause you want to keep your mutas alive more than you want to kill 10 marines. You want to fly in, kill stuff and leave with as few losses as possible. Also, why do you want those 10 marines dead? what benefit is killing 500mins worth of trash troops that can be remade from reactor rax in no time? That's what banelings are for. The question you should be asking is 'how many mutas to 1 or 2 shot a tank? What about a turret? how much dose that change if i get attack ups' You have X amount of seconds to do damage with your mutas before marines arrive and you lose everything. You also have X amount of supply available for drones, ground army and mutas. That upgrade gives you more supply elsewhere. This has value. | ||
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Slachtkoe
Netherlands1 Post
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BreakfastBurrito
United States893 Posts
 +1 is still good for -turrets -addons -errant tanks etc similar for toss, cannons etc. Once you get 30+ and you are ready to direct engage you've probably already won, with all of the damage, because active muta staying alive is trouble for your opponent Edit: info is still interesting/useful, particularly for zvz, thank you! | ||
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DarKcS
Australia1237 Posts
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
:D great work on the math. always love when people crunch number for the better of everyone else | ||
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Olsson
Sweden931 Posts
1/0 = 10 - 11 - 10 (~10) 0/1 = 11 - 11 - 11 (11) 1 Additional Mutalisk = 11 - 11 - 12 (~11, almost 12)." WTF does this even mean? What does 9-10-11 mean? What do the numbers mean? | ||
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immanentblue
Denmark110 Posts
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
What about accounting for the upgrade time? Each mutalisk only takes 33 seconds to build, but the upgrades take minutes (160,190,220 etc), so if you wait until you have 30 mutalisks before starting upgrades, you are never going to get anywhere. In order to have +2 armor done by the time you have 30 mutalisks (when it is worth having), you have to start the upgrades immediately. The testing I did showed that when you have 30 mutas, it's worth having +1 done, but not +2. So you should probably start +2 carapace somewhere between 20-25 mutas, depending on how you lose them. Whether the marines are 3/3 or 0/0 didn't really matter - it's still better to have 21 mutas against 3/3 marines than 20 0/1 mutas. As I've said, if macro slips, or when the supply cap becomes an issue though, you may want to upgrade. So in a realistic game, you'll probably have 0/2 mutas, but only in very very lategame. The first attack upgrade brings muta damage from 9-3-1 to 10-4-2. This is actually wrong. The first attack upgrade does +1/+0/+0. That's why carapace >>>>>>>>> attack in ZvZ, and in muta vs muta, armor applies 3x more than attack (ie armor reduces attacks by -1/-1/-1 from glaive). This has a lot to do with why attack is actually kind of useless for mutas. 1. You DON'T FOCUS FIRE marines. You focus fire the medivacs THEN the marines. Whether you focus fire marines depend on how many mutas you have. Having mutas just enough to 1shot without overkilling marines or less = focus fire, otherwise you a-move. I actually tested this, and this is horrrrrribly wrong. Don't do this. Also, you should never focus fire with mutalisks, unless it's a specific 1 target you want removed in a larger group (ie tank in group of marines, thor in the base, etc). 2. Having extra mutalisks does not give you TIMINGS. It requires time to fly to the enemy base. Given that standard ZvT lair timing is about 55-65 supply, I don't think timings with mutas are a big deal anymore. People learned that macro and better econ >>>>>>> a small opportunity to maybe kill 2 SCVs with a few mutas. Air upgrades benefit broods and corruptors as well. (And while not the most needed upgrade in the game still helpful to have.) As far as raw data goes ill take your word that an extra muta is better. (I tend to forget +1 attack til later anyways so I follow your advice regardless) however when looking at the bigger picture starting upgrades at an earlier stage could be more beneficial overall. Sure, but consider testing out broodlords upgrades and seeing if they are worth it. And, when you get broodlords, you are usually maxed and have an extremely high gas income. As I've already said, getting upgrades when maxed is completely fine, if not preferable. Just make sure you know why you are getting your BL upgrades - I'd hazard that carapace is much better than weapons for broodlords, just due to them being high health units that do relatively lower dps (and broodlings being the source of high damage). 3. Having attack means you can focus fire TURRETS faster, giving SCVs less time to react and repair Having carapace means you can stay in turret fire to focus TURRETS faster, and that you'll have more mutas in the long run of the game, meaning when you normally would have maybe 15 mutas, you would have 17 at that moment in the game when you focus down turrets. Also, an extra muta does just as much to focus a turret down as another muta, as well as adding life to the ball. 4. Armor is useless vs SCVs So is attack. 5. You start upgrades because by the time that your upgrades finish, you'll have enough mutas for the upgrades to matter. Mutas are not meant to end the game early, and thus you WANT upgrades to stack up later into the game. According to the data, you should start +1 carapace around when you have 20-25 mutas, to kick in when you are 25-30 mutas deep. Which goes against what 99% of zergs do - start an upgrade (and most of the attack, attack instead of carapace) the second spire pops. 6. Something called zerglings and banelings. There's nothing in this thread about lings and banes. Irrelevant. However, most people are aware that for ling/bane, you should only get +1 carapace, and further upgrades aren't that important the higher the siege tank count (+1 siege tanks will always 2 shot ling/bane, but +0 tanks 3 shot +1 lings, that's why +1 carapace is important midgame upgrade). So you just go for melee on single evo. But that's another topic, and something people know already. ZvZ: People don't get more than 0-2 because it is more beneficial to use that gas to tech to infestors when muta-war is at a stalemate. At no point should you have more than 1-2. Yes. Most of the time, people won't move past +1 upgrade even. That doesn't mean games don't occur where something out of the ordinary occurs - I've had an actualy game where 1/3 saved me vs 2/2. I was playing against someone who had the advantage the entire game, a HUGE gas lead, and I even got infestors out. When someone is up a mining base, and it's 6 base vs 5 base, it's kind of hard to use 15 mutas with infestor support to deal with 30 mutas. Only reason I won was because I had 1/3 - although it was his game to throw away, the comeback would never have happened if I didn't have 1/3. Also, muta zvz is susceptible to fast tech switches if you muta count goes too low, ultra count drops, infestor count drops, et cetera. It's entirely possible in extreme lategame ZvZ that a huge, epic, ultra vs ultra battle occurs, and you lose all your infestors. If you lose all your infestors, the opponent can beat you with pure muta if he has a gas advantage, so hopefully, you kept up your upgrades in ZvZ. Don't tell people not to focus fire man. You know perfectly well how vastly different blink affects everything. You have to focus fire targets at random against small amounts of stalkers or they will just blink away. I've stated that the tests were done without blink. I also said against small or particular targets, you may want to FF. Against a group of blink stalkers with your mutas though, if you were to engage and know no reinforcements would come.... that's different. I didn't test blink. But I'd love to see someone test it. Or, you can just bash me for actually trying to learn something about the game, and I'll eventually test it myself. You should go 2-0 before 1-1 because: 1. Storm doesn't discriminate 2. You shouldn't be engaging anything with your mutas in ZvP, muta harass works different in this matchup. 1. You should be dodging storm, and when storm is out, you should be moving to hive tech or lots of roaches and busting toss. 2. You should engage small numbers of stalkers if you can. Again, as I've said, carapace is just as worthy for attack for harass, it means you can stay around longer to attack. And don't pretend that every game is so perfect too. Your mutas will always take damage in a real game. With carapace, you will lose less mutas over the course of the game, and have a larger ball later on than normal. Means a lot more damage. And often times a game is decided by a single engagement. You should have the right upgrade for that engagement. Lastly, you honestly think your 1 hour of unit testing makes you smarter than the top zergs in the world? Getting double spire gives you many boons: 1. When you mass mutas, opponents will shut down your entire gameplan and K.O. you if they snipe your spire 2. When you mass mutas with double spire, your transition will be broodlords 3. You can morph greater spire while upgrading 4. Having more mutas cost more supply Most pros don't go double spire. I also stated that in ZvP, it may be very useful to go double spire because of base trade scenarios. You can just as easily transition to broodlords on single spire. And as these test have shown, upgrading while having good macro is a waste generally compared to just getting more upgrades. I also stated that the supply cap is an issue that is ignored in these tests, so when approaching max, you should get the best upgrade according to the match-up. You cannot just get from 0 to 30 muta's instantly, nor does larvea actually permit it in a normal game. Zerg produces overlords/drones/units from that 1 larvea Larva has never been a limited factor for muta production for me. It's generally gas that limits muta production. Most Muta play has a macro hatch incorporated very early into the build as well. i dont really agree with this as it assumes pure marine vs muta and no control by either and or supporting units (which is very important in determining the overall effectivness of the marines and the mutalisks) im still convinced that +1 is better overall when mutas are controlled correctly and allow for better sniping of tanks and medivacs etc as well as serving as a basis for late game broodlord play. I did tests with medivacs too, and they didn't change the results, all medivacs do is make the results extremely variable but still follow the same general pattern. As long as you magic box against thors, you should be fine, and you would want carapace over attack still. Yes, there are times when you engage marines directly, but it's when you have an overwhelming amount of mutas, definitely not in a 20 vs 15 situation. In a large engagement, you have no choice but to engage with your mutas against the full head-on army of Terran, ling/bane vs rine/tank, and the mutas to make kiting less effective and add crucial DPS. You want the better upgrade in such situations. Also, I only tested with 20 vs 15, 20 vs 20, et cetera, to best show off better choices. If I were to test 20 mutas vs 8 marines (drop), the results would be onesided and I don't think you'd be able to tell what upgrade or choice is better. By testing 20 mutas vs 15 marines, I could show which upgrade or choice is best for real-game scenarios like 15 mutas vs 8 marines. Yes, it's only 1 damage, but that number is compounded when you get to higher muta counts. Not to mention the fact that armor upgrades help SO much against muta attack. Yes, it is quite counterintuitive that upgrades mean so little in ZvT. I think a lot of people do this kind of analysis and conclude that upgrades are bad, but they're wrong. The problem is that you're not really taking into account that upgrades affect all current *and future* units. So sure, if you're only ever going to get 15 mutas, it's not worth getting an upgrade, but if you continue to replenish your muta count, the upgrades are important because you never have to buy them again. Extra mutas die and the investment in them is gone forever, while the upgrade stays forever. So I do a scientific test, and I'm the person who is wrong because it goes against what I assume to be correct with zero testing? Damn you scientific method! In ZvT, you are better off just replacing the mutas and never getting any upgrade until you reach near the 30 muta point. As for broodlords, I believe they benefit more from ground melee upgrade, not air, but I will be sure to test broodlords too. You will have less dead mutas if you upgrade as outlined in the OP, that's the whole point. Also, upgrades on zero living mutas isn't exactly helpful. I don't understand the Get mutas instead of mutas point... It means the marginal benefit is higher with more mutas instead of upgrades. So if you have 20k gas, what is the best choice? According to the data: ZvT: Get 20 mutas ZvZ: Get 19 mutas and +1 carapace (if you want to be technical, 18.5 mutas and +1 cara). ZvP: Get 19 mutas and +1 attack That's what it means. It also impacts when to upgrade: ZvT: When you have 20+ mutas. ZvZ: Immediately, always. ZvP: Immediately, rarely. The upgrade is also a teensy bit cheaper than another muta in terms of a quarter of an overlord and a larva, but usually you're getting upgrades to help you deal with what's going to be going on once you hit max supply. I'd say the decision comes down to how precarious your situation is when you have the 100/100 to spend, and that's pretty intuitive. If you're scared enough that you don't know if you can last until your upgrade is completed, sure grab another muta. As I've said, the tests ignore the supply cap and bad macro. If your macro slips, or the supply cap becomes an issue, upgrade. But these tests should now be helpful in letting you know which upgrade to go for. Good post mate, some things in this are a lil taken out of context of the actual game but some interesting info definitely. My only question would be broodlords etc late game but thats already been discussed, keep it up! Thanks. I never said you had to apply the results, but some people are just so dogmatic. A real game obviously has differences, and in reality, I would start upgrades a little earlier than recommended by the findings (ie +1 cara at about 15 mutas instead of 20+ in ZvT). But they definitely say interesting things. Like now we know when spire pops, don't start an upgrade. Most people in ZvT, when spire pops, they immediately start an upgrade (most of the time attack), and then start mutas. Now, we know that you shouldn't start an upgrade. You should make all mutas, then get the upgrade. In ZvZ, now we know how important carapace really is, but in ZvP, how little it matters. What was really interesting, was how little upgrades mattered in the face of, say, 3/3 marines, or 3/3 stalkers. The equation never changed. I'll be doing a little test on corruptor vs viking, and broodlord vs various units in a bit. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
About the focus firing, I think that really depends on the situation. Wouldn't stutter stepping the mutas overcome the repositioning deficit? Maybe if you have perfect micro, but I doubt it. Feel free to test it yourself. Carapace is not the more popular choice, and for a reason. You want to be able to do damage as fast as possible until the opponent comes to defend. Then you fly away and attack somewhere else. Carapace doesn't do anything if you arent getting hit in the first place. In a real game you will always take damage. With the right upgrade choice, you will hopefully be able to make it so it's just damage, and not a lost muta. The whole 'don't get hit' thing is such BS too. If you watch pro play, you will always see them engage small numbers of units whenever they favorably can, not to mention drops. If you watch DRG, he is actually extremely aggressive with mutas, constantly engaging marine counts that you question if he can win (he'll use 15 mutas vs 10 marines many times with micro). Also, there's always a large ling/bane/muta vs rine/tank fight - with the right upgrade, you will better engage. The idea you can sink 2k/2k into some units, and just never have to use them for a fight, is just ludicrous. Pro zergs always use their mutas in fights, and they always take damage. I get the 'idea' behind them, but what really happens in the game is much more. And as I've said a million times, carapace means you can stay around under fire to do damage longer. Also, why do you want those 10 marines dead? what benefit is killing 500mins worth of trash troops that can be remade from reactor rax in no time? That's what banelings are for. marines often protect important targets, like siege tanks and SCVs and production/tech/necessary buildings. The question you should be asking is 'how many mutas to 1 or 2 shot a tank? What about a turret? how much dose that change if i get attack ups' The question is better put this way: "Would I faster kill a siege tank, with 10 stimmed marines on the way, with +1 carapace mutas that can survive a bit more heat, or +1 attack that may snipe tha tank faster, or an extra muta, which will give some extra damage and some extra life for the muta ball? Which choice has the best relative cost?" Carapace gives you more time. From a Terran perspective when I know I am going to lose my marines to muthas , like when muthas come to clean up a drop, I will focus fire muthas. With focus fire upgrades are more noticeable. But like what everyone says you aren't supposed to fight marines with muthas. The only noticeable upgrade I would recommend is the carapace upgrade when there are +2 attack thors on the map who can 2 shot muthas instead of normally 3 shot. You will less quickly focus a muta down with carapace, a 1 additional muta ball will clean up quicker, etc. For ZvT, I think it's bad to say ignore upgrades. if you ever intend to get broodlords in the late game, vikings get much weaker against air when you have 2 or 3 armour, which you won't have if you ignore upgrades until 25 minutes. If you have a +1 upgrade advantage against vikings, the broodlord will survive 2 more shots. The air attack itself of broodlords isn't the main damage dealer. If you want to get carapace slightly earlier in anticipation of lategame, go for it. But now you will know that you should make the mutas first,and don't get the upgrade until after 15 or so mutas, instead of right when spire pops. WTF does this even mean? What does 9-10-11 mean? What do the numbers mean? 9-10-11 refers to 3 test events, and the number of mutalisks left over. The number in parenthesis is just the rough total, so you can compare it to other tests. Sorry, I'll edit OP to make that clearer. | ||
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regulator_mk
United States127 Posts
On February 18 2012 05:18 Belial88 wrote: So I do a scientific test, and I'm the person who is wrong because it goes against what I assume to be correct with zero testing? Damn you scientific method! In ZvT, you are better off just replacing the mutas and never getting any upgrade until you reach near the 30 muta point. As for broodlords, I believe they benefit more from ground melee upgrade, not air, but I will be sure to test broodlords too. You will have less dead mutas if you upgrade as outlined in the OP, that's the whole point. Also, upgrades on zero living mutas isn't exactly helpful. The problem with "scientific" tests is that you are forced to abstract out a lot of stuff to isolate a situation. The hard part is then extrapolating the right conclusions for more general situations, or figuring out what situations your results apply to. Here, your experiment is a single engagement with X mutas with Y/Z upgrades vs W marines/stalkers/mutas with U/V upgrades or something. So that's great for a single engagement. If you're going to engage units one time in the game, your results are perfectly applicable. You've confirmed that upgrades are bad if you're only going to engage once with a small number of units. You've also come up with what number "small" is. However, in your experiment you never poke and back off, add in more units, etc... so you can't expect your results to hold true for an entire game. My claim is that it's not surprising that you need a lot of mutas for upgrades to be good for a single battle. The benefit to upgrades is that they are good for multiple engagements, which is why your experiment doesn't do them justice. Now while my claim is simply conjecture, it's completely logical and founded in previous results of years of people playing RTS games. So it's an appropriate way for a scientist to think. If you just do experiments without thinking about real-world situations, you're not a scientist, you're a lab tech. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
I don't understand what your point is. I never said upgrades were bad. I just said with limited resources, an additional mutalisk is way more competitive than getting an upgrade. I also stated that supply cap, macro slip us, and future plans in the game can change what you want to do. There's obviously a right and wrong way to do things. Is double spire best? Is single spire? Attack, or carapace? Is Nestea an idiot for going attack? Or is leenock and DRG stupid for going carapace? What about leenock's double spire? Should you go fast upgrades, or slow? I hope these results have answered these questions. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
Also going to test broodlords. | ||
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LazinCajun
United States294 Posts
On February 17 2012 17:35 BreakfastBurrito wrote: I almost never use mutas in a direct engage in zvt +1 is still good for Kinda off topic, but you're probably missing out a bit. Used properly they're awesome for focusing medivacs and/or tanks while your lings and blings occupy the marines. It makes army control a bit harder since to do it properly you'll have to deal with 3 control groups, but using your mutas along with your ling/bling is really helpful to keep Terran from reaching scary numbers of tanks  | ||
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Jombozeus
China1014 Posts
You realize that the faster you can focus fire a medivac down, the less marines can unload or get healed. It ALSO destroys a push such that they cannot stim again. Your tests assume that medivacs are only healing during the duration of the fight, which is faaaaaaaar from the truth. If you have to disengage marines with your mutas, which is 90% of the time, you will have done 0 damage if medivacs arent dead because the medivacs will have healed up every marine. I challenge you to try marine+medivac again with your mutas, but this time you snipe the medivac and fly away, and reengage. 2. Attack does help against SCVs, the bounce is increased. 3. Difference between 1-shotting a turret and 2-shotting a turret will decide whether SCVs get around to repairing or not, which can change the outcome of the game. 4. Muta timings do not mean a timing where I go in with all my mutas and units when I hit an upgrade, it means that: At 12 minute mark - I have +1 attack done - I can therefore do more damage than the enemy expects, resulting in him bringing too little marines to defend or not having enough stuff just because of this specific timing. 5. When you have 30 mutas, you're probably already upgrading your greater spire. If you're starting your 0-2 now, guess what, you cant. You will have 0-1 broodlords instead of 1-2. Yes, this is extremely important in the scope of the game. If you don't plan on teching to broodlords, I doubt you'll be getting enough mutas (15) to warrant upgrades anyways. 6. Having 1-0 attack does something really magical. It increases the damage of single-target damage by a large percentage. The reason why getting 1 extra muta seems so good is because it loses effectiveness at a lower rate when you are being shot at, and because the full damage of bounces are calculated. However, what mutas really need is single-target damage. Would you rather kill a depot and do 100 damage to another or deal 350 damage to one and 200 to another? | ||
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Gamegene
United States8308 Posts
I hope no one reads it so everyone still goes for attack upgrades '-' | ||
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Hoon
Brazil891 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=187603 | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
I set the tank on a specific spot, the mutas somewhere, and the marines somewhere. I have the mutas snipe the tank, and run back, and I have the marines stim forward. The set up is so that the tank is in between the marines and tank, on the "Arena" terrain of Unit Tester Online. I am testing to see which choice of attack, armor, and 1 more muta, snipes the tank with the most mutas left over. 15 0/0 Mutas vs 1/1 15 Marines with Stim/Shield ... = 11-12-12 (~12) 1/0 Mutas = 13-13-12 (~13) 0/1 Mutas = 12-13-13 (~13) 1 Additional Muta = 14-13-14 (~14) I did these tests with some regularity, there are markers on the map that I made sure all the unit stood at the same spots for this. I'm surprised the results came out as regular as they did though. For this rough test, it seems that the results are the same in terms of "bbbbbut I never engage with my mutas, I use them to snipe stuff!". I don't mind if you disagree, but please have a reason. | ||
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Jombozeus
China1014 Posts
On February 18 2012 06:10 Belial88 wrote: 15 Mutas vs 15 Marines + 1 tank. I set the tank on a specific spot, the mutas somewhere, and the marines somewhere. I have the mutas snipe the tank, and run back, and I have the marines stim forward. The set up is so that the tank is in between the marines and tank, on the "Arena" terrain of Unit Tester Online. I am testing to see which choice of attack, armor, and 1 more muta, snipes the tank with the most mutas left over. 15 0/0 Mutas vs 1/1 15 Marines with Stim/Shield ... = 11-12-12 (~12) 1/0 Mutas = 13-13-12 (~13) 0/1 Mutas = 12-13-13 (~13) 1 Additional Muta = 14-13-14 (~14) I did these tests with some regularity, there are markers on the map that I made sure all the unit stood at the same spots for this. I'm surprised the results came out as regular as they did though. For this rough test, it seems that the results are the same in terms of "bbbbbut I never engage with my mutas, I use them to snipe stuff!". I don't mind if you disagree, but please have a reason. Here's a reason for ya. Mutalisk damage = 9, +1 for every attack Tank health = 160 hitpoints, 1 armor. So 8 damage per muta with no upgrade. 160/8 = 20 shots to kill a tank So 9 damage per muta with 1 upgrade. 160/9 = 18 shots to kill a tank With 10 damage per muta with 2 upgrade. 160/10 = 16 shots to kill a tank Suddenly you see that there is a benefit to getting attack, because if you test with the right amount of mutas, you will be able to 1shot a tank, among other objects worthy of attacking. If you stay for 1 extra shot, you might lose 2 extra mutas. Because you will be losing mutas in most games, there is a higher likelihood your muta count will be hovering around these "sweet spot" numbers. EDIT: These may seem like minuscule differences, but you have to remember the differences between getting attack, armor and extra mutas too, are minuscule. It is basically comparing which small advantage is smaller. There are many reasons why an extra muta is not good. Specifically, taking 1 shot to kill a medivac compared to 2 may be the difference between a drop killing your spire and your spire living. The ability to kill something in one-hit is extremely important. Another problem is when you have 2/2 marines vs. 1-0 mutas, which is much more likely with the current metagame, it is much more beneficial to have 1-0 attack because 1 extra muta has its damage decreased by 6. The higher the armor count on the marines the worse an extra muta is, similar to the reason of ZvZ. The beef I have with your calculations is because you tell us that it is non-conclusive, and then you subsequently tells everyone that they must do what you do because it is factual. Make up your mind. | ||
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