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Some interesting test results of Muta vs Marines/Mutas/Stalkers, to see the importance of upgrades. I basically just used Unit Tester Online, and had the system attack. With stim, I stimmed right before engaging, to ensure stim during the entire engagement. I did not attempt any micro or repositioning.
Some results were interesting, TLDR at bottom. I always made sure mutalisks won the fight, and I specifically used certain numbers of muta vs Unit to best exaggerate the differences in upgrade vs upgrade vs additional muta. X-Y-Z refers to the results of 3 test events, and the number in parenthesis is a quick average so you can quickly compare one test to another.
ZvT
15 vs 15 Stim, Combat Shield
0/0 vs 0/0 = 9-10-11 (~10)
1/0 = 10 - 11 - 10 (~10)
0/1 = 11 - 11 - 11 (11)
1 Additional Mutalisk = 11 - 11 - 12 (~11, almost 12).
So this shows that at first, it's best to get an additional mutalisk.
But what about higher numbers?
20 vs 20 Stim, Combat
0/0 vs 0/0 = 13-14-15 (~14)
1/0 = 14-13-14 (~14)
0/1 = 16/14/14 (~14)
1 Additional Mutalisk = 16-14-17 (~16)
So it it still shows that 1 more mutalisk is better than an upgrade!
Maybe 30 mutas?
30 vs 30
0/0 vs 0/0 = 18-20-18 (~19)
1/0 = 19-20-19 (~19)
0/1 = 22-23-21 (~22)
1 Additional Mutalisk = 19-20-22 (~21)
So when you hit 30 mutas, THAT'S when you get an upgrade lol!
So the lesson here? Get mutas instead of upgrades. Once about 20 mutas, start +1 carapace (meaning don't start your upgrade when spire pops, but after making the mutas).
So what about further on, in terms of upgrades, after you got +1 carapace. Should you go for +2 carapace, or +1 weapons?
30 vs 30
0/1 vs 0/0 = 22-23-21(~22)
0/2 vs 0/0 = 24-23-24 (~23)
1/1 vs 0/0 = 23/23/23 (~23, but less so).
It seems like 0/2 is better, but insignificantly so (as in statistically insignificant).
Given the 300/300 cost of +3 armor though, i think it's better to go for +2 weapons instead of +3 armor. Don't need to test to see that as obvious!
But what about medivacs?
30 mutas vs 30 marines + 6 medivacs
0/0 vs 0/0 = 10-14-12 (~12)
1/0 = 14-17-14 (~15)
0/1 = 14-17-17 (~16)
1 Additional Muta = 18-16-15 (~16)
Seems like it's borderline between carapace and another additional muta, but carapace still being better, showing similar results with no medivacs (and medivacs make results vary much more).
So what about the other match-ups?
ZvZ
We already know carapace is better, but maybe more mutas is more important?
20 Mutas vs 20 Mutas
0/1 vs 0/0 = 11-8-10 (~10)
1 Additional Muta = 8-8-8 (8)
Surprising how onesided just one additional muta can make, but it shows that +1 carapace is very important in muta vs muta, whereas upgrades aren't as important in ZvT. Also, just a quick test, but 2/2 beats 0/3 mutas, and 2/2 loses to 1/3 mutas.
ZvP
20 Mutas vs 15 Stalkers (no blink)
0/0 vs 0/0 = 11-11-12 (~11)
1/0 vs 0/0 = 12-13-13 (~13)
0/1 vs 0/0 = 13-12-12 (~12)
1 Additional Mutalisk = 13-13-13 (13)
It seems like 1 additional mutalisk is preferable, but not by much, and that actually attack is better than carapace, which seems to be against the trend. But to give it more thorough testing:
30 mutas vs 25 stalkers (no blink)
0/0 vs 0/0 = 11/12/12 (~12)
1/0 = 17-15-16 (~16)
0/1 = 16-16-16 (16)
1 Addtional Mutalisk = 16-16-15 (~16)
Also, on a side note, never focus fire with mutalisks. The muta has too short of a range that you lose DPS due to repositioning, and even conservative focus fire (just making sure to focus fire things in range so much don't move) doesn't work.
TLDR:
ZvT: Upgrades are extremely unimportant, and extra mutalisks is always better than upgrades. Only when approaching ~30 mutalisks, should you get upgrades, and in this case, carapace is better than attack. If your macro is good, you should avoid getting upgrades. If your macro is poor, then go for carapace. Either way, do not get upgrades when spire pops, you should very much delay on upgrades.
Go for 30 mutalisks, then 0/2, then 1/2, then 2/2. This isn't factoring in the extra cost of upgrades, which only make the argument for balancing your upgrades rather than racing to 3/0 or 0/3 stronger. (So start upgrade at 25 mutalisks, if you plan to keep making them, or, if you plan not to lose them but don't want to make any more, ie your teching to BL).
In short, 30 mutas, 0/2, 1/2, 2/2, 2/3.
ZvZ: Carapace is actually pretty important, and you want 0/2 asap. Also, you might want to hold off on +3 carapace in favor of more mutalisks and going for the attack upgrades (this is based solely on relative costs, of course 3 carapace is very beastly).
You should always be upgrading at the spire in Muta vs Muta, for 0/2, then catching back up on weapons.
In short, 0/2, 1/2, 1/3.
ZvP: Upgrades are semi-important. You'll want +1 attack, but it's not much better than +1 carapace or an additional mutalisk if you have a reason for it (maybe you want armor to deal with critical number of shots from other Toss units, or attack for more harass). You may want to hold off on getting +2 or higher in favor of more mutalisks, and you might want to balance upgrades due to cost being a very important factory here.
In short, 1/0, More Mutalisks.
***********************************************************************************************
Now obviously if your macro slips, or the supply cap is an issue, go for upgrades. But, now you know which upgrade is better in each match-up. I was surprised by the results.
Also, given how unfavorably attack stacks against just an extra most of the time, you might want to reconsider the whole "but I get attack because I never engage and want to kill buildings". Against Toss, attack is better anyways, but extra mutas dish out extra damage against buildings too. Against Terran, yes, attack is worse, but you want to be going for more mutas anyways. In ZvZ, going for attack instead of carapace can lose you the game, so I wouldn't recommend going for attack 'just to harass' unless the opponent was going with a roach based play (in which case I'd recommend attack, actually).
Here's a few random tips about mutas:
+ Show Spoiler +
1. In ZvZ, it's useful to have lings underneath your mutas in muta vs muta battles. While attacks of any unit always have a priority (that's why buildings and mining workers aren't attacked when enemy units are around), glaive wurm bounce is pretty random and goes towards any unit, even mining workers (overlords seem to be disliked, but will get hit, although less than any other unit or worker). So add some lings to your control group of mutas. In a muta vs muta battle, some of the enemy bounce will go to the lings, and you can come out way ahead in a battle doing this tactic.
2. In ZvZ, muta vs muta is wildly unpredictable. Any attempt at micro will always make you worse off, so just a-move. Don't ball up your mutas before, don't try to spread your mutas before the engagement, just a-move. This is generally why once both players have about 20+ mutas the game goes towards infestors, but a +1 muta advantage can lead to 8 mutas for that side at the end of a total battle. Be careful, just a-move.
3. And not micro'ing goes for anything, actually. Marines, stalkers, don't micro your mutas. Besides sniping warping in targets or tanks, in an actual fight with units that can hit your mutas, don't focus fire, don't micro. A single muta repositioning itself is disastrous, and for some reason, any sort of micro always hurts more than helps. Exceptions exist for sniping medivacs real quick then leaving, blinking stalkers, or sniping stray marines or units, obviously.
4. I didn't include mech because in a real game, thor shots work out that your armor upgrades really don't matter. There's a few critical hit zones, but generally Thors will 3 shot your mutas (3 shot right?), especially since it's unlikely you'll have 0/3 mutas vs 0/0 thors. Attack is okay.
That's all. If anyone has more thorough or better testing, or anything else interesting to add, go for it.
Edit: I'd like to add that carapace can also mean you can harass longer, where with attack you would normally have to leave prematurely. These tests don't say everything, but should definitely influence your play (ie for example, now you know in ZvT you should not start upgrades when spire starts, but rather after getting the mutas).
Finally, these numbers do not factor in bad macro, supply cap, or corruptors or broodlords, all of which can influence you to upgrade earlier or upgrade differently than the results shown here.
Edit 2: A few random tests I've done due to responses in this thread:
1 Muta vs 3 SCVs, bounce damage test:
+ Show Spoiler +
Attack Upgrade Level = Main Hit/Bounce1/Bounce2
0 = -9/-3/-1
1 = -10/-4/-2
2 = -11/-4/-2
3 = -12/-4/-2
How many volleys for 1 mutalisk, with X upgrade, to kill 4 SCVs.
+ Show Spoiler +
Should you focus Medivacs with Mutas?
+ Show Spoiler +
0/0 vs 0/0, no stim, no combat shield
8 Mutas vs 8 marines + Medivac = 6-6-7 (~6)
8 Mutas vs 8 Marines + Medivac, Focusing Medivac = 5-4-5 (~5)
What is the best choice to make if you want to use your mutas to snipe, or
What choice will result in the most Mutas at the end, if I want to snipe a tank covered by 15 marines?
+ Show Spoiler +
15 Mutas vs 15 Marines + 1 tank.
I set the tank on a specific spot, the mutas somewhere, and the marines somewhere. I have the mutas snipe the tank, and run back, and I have the marines stim forward. The set up is so that the tank is in between the marines and tank, on the "Arena" terrain of Unit Tester Online. I am testing to see which choice of attack, armor, and 1 more muta, snipes the tank with the most mutas left over.
15 0/0 Mutas vs 1/1 15 Marines with Stim/Shield
... = 11-12-12 (~12)
1/0 Mutas = 13-13-12 (~13)
0/1 Mutas = 12-13-13 (~13)
1 Additional Muta = 14-13-14 (~14)
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Very interesting thread, thanks for the knowledge and testing!
Im actually surprised about the ZvT results, I wouldn't have thought upgrades were so irrelevant.
I'd also like to see if pros can micro in such a way that they make mutas more effective. Not to insult your micro, but, you know, you aren't Leenock or IdrA.
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Cool... except Mutas in general aren't really supposed to fight marines directly.
You're not getting upgrades so that you can kill more marines/stalkers better, you're getting upgrades so that you can do more burst damage. This would include sniping buildings (like Turrets), workers, and tanks especially.
Also, when it comes to 0/0 mutas against 3/3 marines... it's practically not even worth engaging a dropful even with like 10 mutas. You have to keep your upgrades going so that you can not just get raped later in the game.
It's interesting to know where stalker vs muta or marine vs muta things help, but you need to consider more than straight up fights.
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On February 16 2012 12:58 spacebob42 wrote:
Very interesting thread, thanks for the knowledge and testing!
Im actually surprised about the ZvT results, I wouldn't have thought upgrades were so irrelevant.
I'd also like to see if pros can micro in such a way that they make mutas more effective. Not to insult your micro, but, you know, you aren't Leenock or IdrA.
I'm not playing a battle here or anything. I have the game issue the attack command, and just once or twice in the battle, do something like focus fire a unit within range of all selected mutas, or ball up my mutas before a muta vs muta engagement. In multiple tests, it showed that the results were worse than just a-move.
So yea, it's kind of insulting what you say. No shit I'm not leenock or idra, but it doesn't take a pro to say, blink micro in a controlled environment. And that's not even what it's about.
I guess to correct myself though, the only relevant micro would be pulling back a red muta real quickly. That is actually helpful, sometimes (not in muta vs muta though).
Cool... except Mutas in general aren't really supposed to fight marines directly.
You're not getting upgrades so that you can kill more marines/stalkers better, you're getting upgrades so that you can do more burst damage. This would include sniping buildings (like Turrets), workers, and tanks especially.
Also, when it comes to 0/0 mutas against 3/3 marines... it's practically not even worth engaging a dropful even with like 10 mutas. You have to keep your upgrades going so that you can not just get raped later in the game.
It's interesting to know where stalker vs muta or marine vs muta things help, but you need to consider more than straight up fights.
I agree, but the results also showed that getting more mutas is better than upgrades, which helps with burst damage as well. Yes, 0/0 mutas get raped by 3/3 marines, but an 1 more muta > +1 carapace +1 attack against 3/3 marines.
20 vs 15 marines, stim, combat shield
0/0 vs 3/3 = 7-8
1/0 = 10-10
0/1 = 9-10
1 Additional Muta = 12-11
You know, you could say "Hey, i wonder how 3/3 marines would fare" or "Did you try with 3/3?" What you are saying is kind of presumptuous. Even against 3/3, it's still better to have an additional muta.
Anyways, if you watch DRG, or many pros, they often will engage marines. In ZvP, it's very much about trying to kill off the stalkers as much as possible. I understand your point, but I disagree. You are engaging AA units very often with your mutas. Ideally, in scenarios where you will win overwhelmingly, and you run from situations where the fight is even, but even when sniping things, you will get shot at, or shoot at, arriving units. Also, a lot of the data seems to support the whole "What about the idea that you will never engage", like getting more mutas as opposed to attack. And in ZvZ, you are definitely engaging with your mutas.
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Does the OP understand that in a 30 muta vs 30 marine fight the angle of attack and micro during fight (flying over, or over-firing vs single marines) will affect the outcome in a big way.
Having the mutas spread in a circle hitting a pack of marines in the center would be way different from a ball vs ball.
Even a concave of mutas vs a ball of marines would fair better because less mutas would over-fire against marines and fewer mutas would die instantly (damage spread among them).
Cant just say 30 mutas vs 30 marines, cuz that fight could go way differently especially when your outcomes are 23 mutas vs 24 as the reason to get an upgrade or not.
Edit: a picture or video would help ^^
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^ Yes. I used a unit tester, which basically a-moves them toward eachother. The units are non stacked, in a group, at the start. As long as each test is uniform, it doesn't matter.
And actually, having the mutas in a ball is worse, than having them spread. Basically, any sort of micro or pre-positioning is detrimental for the mutas. Yes, it flies against common sense. And concaves aren't something mutas need. They are air units.
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Your spoiler tags are broken. It's [ spoiler ] not [ spoilers ], you can use the grey [s] button to insert those tags.
Other than that interesting thread, thanks for sharing 
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If you get upgrades earlier on (rather than after 30 mutas as you say), it will apply earlier to your current mutas as well as all other mutas you will make throughout the game. You're going to get air upgrades eventually because unupgraded mutas vs upgraded marines is suicide. So, I don't this is the correct way to determine if upgrades are worth getting or not (compared to getting X extra mutas).
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^ For ZvT, what I'm basically saying is don't get any upgrades until the point when, having started it, it would finish when you have ~30 mutas.
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the point of attack in ZvT for mutas is to make them better at picking off tanks/scvs/structures, not to directly engage marines.
i think double spire builds are the best way to upgrade your mutas if you intend to use them in direct engagments
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^ I addressed that already. That's why the conclusion is "get more mutas instead of upgrades" is not contradictory with the philosophy that you should never engage with your mutas.
And, if you watch the muta player in the world, DRG, he is extremely aggressive with his mutas. I think that's how he became the best so quickly, he was the first to really use his mutas so aggressively, to punish greedy terrans or terrans out of position, something terrans never expected from pro zergs.
And even then, your mutas will still get shot at by marines when they are sniping turrets. They have to deal with drops.
I'm just telling you what the best options are. I would much rather survive many more shots so I can stay around longer with my mutas, or have more mutas to soak damage, than get attack upgrade on more fragile mutas.
As for double spire, no. The results here clearly show that double spire is a HUGE waste in ZvT.
The only match-up double spire would be useful in is ZvZ, but even then, you are so gas starved, and you want to move past muta vs muat into infestor vs infestor, that it's not practical, and the cost of 100/100+200/200 for getting +1 attack quicker and simultaneously is not worth it. Besides, 0/2 and more mutas is better than less mutas and 1/1.
Double spire, in short, is a bad idea, anytime before being maxed.
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Hrm, once you factor in thors it becomes much more difficult to justfy number of upgrades though.
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^Well like I said in the post...
Thors have an issue where upgrades basically don't matter. They kill mutas in I believe 3 hits, and unless you have 3 armor mutas to 1 weapons thors, in a realistic game (particularly against mech which gets armory on 2 base and has very good reason to upgrade), upgrades are meaningless. They have a lot of armor too, so while attack upgrades on low damage units vs high health/armor units is always okay, it's not better then getting more mutas. My point is, is even including medivacs or thors, the upgrade priority is still the same - more mutas > upgrades in ZvT. Against mech, upgrades are even less useful, in general, due to the high damage weapons they use.
So yea, in ZvT, thors or not, you want to get more mutas instead of upgrades, if your macro is good. If it slips and you are fighting mech, then you may want to go with weapons, but against mech you generally want to max out on 0/0 roaches or maybe 1/0 roaches and then tech extremely quick into infestors and then broodlords (then get upgrades).
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i've been getting 0/2 for mutas in every MU for a long time now after i realised that it somehow helps staying alive..
this is very interesting from now on i'll go for the extra muta instead of 0/1 especially in zvt, as that is my main MU for getting mutas
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You're not factoring in Terran upgrades, which would lead to more deviations in the situation.
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I can think of a few reasons why you might want upgrades over one extra muta, but many of them boil down to making up for being terrible. The don't micro thing is very interesting though, thanks.
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people don't upgrade their air damaage so that mutas do more damage, they do it so that BLs do more damage late game
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On February 16 2012 14:11 Belial88 wrote:
Double spire, in short, is a bad idea, anytime before being maxed.
Care to show this revolutionary find with Dimaga?
And despite you quickly adressing it I still want to point out that ZvT, your mutas arent used to fight marines.
So many people get attack upgrades because you want to do as much damage in the opponents base as possible (turrets, depots, scvs, add-ons), and get out once marines show up.
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Hmmm... I always get +1 attack the second my spire finishes. The logic is that I want to do more damage so that I can do the damage i need and get the mutas OUT before I have to engage things directly. then comes a quick +2 and I'll sometimes even get a second spire while my hive is building, so I can go for +3 +1 broodlords late game. I like to rely on control to avoid losing mutas (doesnt always work :-) ) I just think that getting upgrades early is important for having a good late game.
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As day9 said.. This is one the problems with sc2.. It's better to A-move then to micro mutas. I played BW and I still add an ovy to my control group of mutas lol, and I still feel like microing them when I know it's not favorable. Really nice write up though, taking notes on the upgrade portion of this for sure.
Thanks for the info.
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You're not factoring in Terran upgrades, which would lead to more deviations in the situation.
I did factor in Terran upgrades. They did not change the equation at all. If anything, medivacs make the possible outcome wildly different (ie 10 vs 10 marines +2 medivacs could be 2, then 5, then 4, mutas left).
people don't upgrade their air damaage so that mutas do more damage, they do it so that BLs do more damage late game
I would be more than willing to do an analysis on BL upgrades, but from what I understood, BL dps came from siege tanks splash and the broodlings, not air ups.
Care to show this revolutionary find with Dimaga?
Maybe I'll show the revolutionary find of "dont make double spire" with Nestea, Losira, Idra, Sen, DRG, and a thousand other zergs who DONT go double spire.
Getting double spire simply shows the player wants to completely focus on Mutas. For example, in ZvP, you might have a reason to go double spire (base trade scenario, supply cap issues due to overlords being killed off, usually being 200/200 when the base trade occurs).
Hmmm... I always get +1 attack the second my spire finishes. The logic is that I want to do more damage so that I can do the damage i need and get the mutas OUT before I have to engage things directly. then comes a quick +2 and I'll sometimes even get a second spire while my hive is building, so I can go for +3 +1 broodlords late game. I like to rely on control to avoid losing mutas (doesnt always work :-) ) I just think that getting upgrades early is important for having a good late game.
With +1 carapace, you can also stick around longer with your mutas to do more damage without losing them, so the logic can go both ways, and according to the data here, +1 carapace is better, but an additional muta is even better, which adds to life of the group as well as damage.
If you watch, say, DRG play (i think a lot consider him the best muta player), he's quite aggressive with his mutas and constantly engaging marines. Plus, you will always be forced to use your mutas in a fight against a good terran. Eventually your mutas have to fight, the whole idea of "your mutas should never engage" is ridiculous and I've never seen a game where that held true. You can't hold off 3base rine/tank/medivac pushes with only ling/bane.
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This is a very, very interesting thread (I mean this seriously). I kinda would like a video of the results because my gut tells me what you say can't be true. This totally changes the way I see mutas (and makes me feel stupid for starting +1 attack as my spire finishes every ZvT.
Thanks for doing this investigation. Very, very interesting results
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Interesting read thanks for doing the testing. However as pointed out the purpose of mutas at an early stage, especially zvt is to harass. The bonus glaive damage when attacking a worker line (with +1) seems to be worth it more than a single extra muta. Plus unlike making units you can only do upgrades in order anyways. Aka if I don't start +1 until 30 mutas ill be forever behind in upgrades.
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This is a very, very interesting thread (I mean this seriously). I kinda would like a video of the results because my gut tells me what you say can't be true. This totally changes the way I see mutas (and makes me feel stupid for starting +1 attack as my spire finishes every ZvT.
Thanks for doing this investigation. Very, very interesting results
It's quite hard to get accurate results with mutas, so it's not completely conclusive what I say here. Nevertheless, obvious trends came out that gave the simple answer on "which is better, upgrade attack, carapace, or an extra muta".
Just go into unit tester and try it out yourself. I did not do anything special here that no one else can't do with 5 minutes of time. The difference is that I did it first.
It made me look at certain things differently though. I always thought leenock was kind of dumb for going carapace instead of attack, which is what is most common, but then I thought to myself "hey why is that", since in general armor is almost always more effective than attack. I also wondered about double spire, and if you take out the "1 additional muta" results, you get a very convincing argument to go double spire (in fact, I was about to post saying you should always go double spire in zvt, but then I tested 1 additional muta sans upgrade and factored in relative costs of more mutas vs upgrades).
I always used to go +1 attack when spire finished in ZvT, so don't worry.
If you are worried about broodlords though, lategame upgrades, well, test out broodlord upgrades in unit tester ( i might do so later). But this thread should point out, that you should at least get upgrades a bit later. So for example, if you think upgrades on BL is important, when spire pops, don't start an upgrade until a few minutes later than you normally would.
Interesting read thanks for doing the testing. However as pointed out the purpose of mutas at an early stage, especially zvt is to harass. The bonus glaive damage when attacking a worker line (with +1) seems to be worth it more than a single extra muta. Plus unlike making units you can only do upgrades in order anyways. Aka if I don't start +1 until 30 mutas ill be forever behind in upgrades.
I don't think the attack upgrade would change critical hit numbers on workers, especially given the muta bounce, and if you want to look at it that way, an extra muta would be much better, as attack upgrade only gives +1/0/0 damage, instead of 1/1/1.
Anyways, in mid-masters, I never harass with my mutas, and my win rate in ZvT is over 70% (sc2gears). I use my mutas instead to deal with drops and snipe tanks and delay pushes.
Either way, as I've already stated, an additional mutalisk will add better dps than an upgrade. I also pointed out already that 1 additional mutalisk fares better than upgraded mutas against 3/3 marines, so the 'forever behind in upgrades' argument is ridiculous.
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Id argue that if you used your mutas to harass as well as snipe tanks and delay your win rate would be even higher. The first attack upgrade brings muta damage from 9-3-1 to 10-4-2.
That being said I don't think forever behind in upgrades is ridiculous at all. Air upgrades benefit broods and corruptors as well. (And while not the most needed upgrade in the game still helpful to have.) As far as raw data goes ill take your word that an extra muta is better. (I tend to forget +1 attack til later anyways so I follow your advice regardless) however when looking at the bigger picture starting upgrades at an earlier stage could be more beneficial overall. Most don't stay on mutas forever, though it can be a long part of the game I understand. I'm not trying to derail or discredit anything just pointing out that looking at the whole picture rather than just 1 unit vs another unit is not always perfectly applicable in game.
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What about accounting for the upgrade time?
Each mutalisk only takes 33 seconds to build, but the upgrades take minutes (160,190,220 etc), so if you wait until you have 30 mutalisks before starting upgrades, you are never going to get anywhere.
In order to have +2 armor done by the time you have 30 mutalisks (when it is worth having), you have to start the upgrades immediately.
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Belial Belial...
Here's a few reasons as to why you are wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong.
ZvT:
1. You DON'T FOCUS FIRE marines. You focus fire the medivacs THEN the marines. Whether you focus fire marines depend on how many mutas you have. Having mutas just enough to 1shot without overkilling marines or less = focus fire, otherwise you a-move.
2. Having extra mutalisks does not give you TIMINGS. It requires time to fly to the enemy base.
3. Having attack means you can focus fire TURRETS faster, giving SCVs less time to react and repair
4. Armor is useless vs SCVs
5. You start upgrades because by the time that your upgrades finish, you'll have enough mutas for the upgrades to matter. Mutas are not meant to end the game early, and thus you WANT upgrades to stack up later into the game.
6. Something called zerglings and banelings.
ZvZ:
People don't get more than 0-2 because it is more beneficial to use that gas to tech to infestors when muta-war is at a stalemate. At no point should you have more than 1-2.
ZvP:
Don't tell people not to focus fire man. You know perfectly well how vastly different blink affects everything. You have to focus fire targets at random against small amounts of stalkers or they will just blink away.
You should go 2-0 before 1-1 because:
1. Storm doesn't discriminate
2. You shouldn't be engaging anything with your mutas in ZvP, muta harass works different in this matchup.
Lastly, you honestly think your 1 hour of unit testing makes you smarter than the top zergs in the world? Getting double spire gives you many boons:
1. When you mass mutas, opponents will shut down your entire gameplan and K.O. you if they snipe your spire
2. When you mass mutas with double spire, your transition will be broodlords
3. You can morph greater spire while upgrading
4. Having more mutas cost more supply
5. Most important of them all:
You assume no mutas are lost.
6. Oh yeah and as guy below me said, larva.
So many things wrong it makes me cringe...
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You all forget 1 ULTIMATE aspect for this discussion
+ Show Spoiler +
You cannot just get from 0 to 30 muta's instantly, nor does larvea actually permit it in a normal game. Zerg produces overlords/drones/units from that 1 larvea
So getting either +1 while your building up your muta numbers is better for your econ, simply because without spending anything on upgrades, you won't have the ability to spend all your money.
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On February 16 2012 13:24 Belial88 wrote:
I agree, but the results also showed that getting more mutas is better than upgrades, which helps with burst damage as well. Yes, 0/0 mutas get raped by 3/3 marines, but an 1 more muta > +1 carapace +1 attack against 3/3 marines.
20 vs 15 marines, stim, combat shield
0/0 vs 3/3 = 7-8
1/0 = 10-10
0/1 = 9-10
1 Additional Muta = 12-11
You know, you could say "Hey, i wonder how 3/3 marines would fare" or "Did you try with 3/3?" What you are saying is kind of presumptuous. Even against 3/3, it's still better to have an additional muta.
Anyways, if you watch DRG, or many pros, they often will engage marines. In ZvP, it's very much about trying to kill off the stalkers as much as possible. I understand your point, but I disagree. You are engaging AA units very often with your mutas. Ideally, in scenarios where you will win overwhelmingly, and you run from situations where the fight is even, but even when sniping things, you will get shot at, or shoot at, arriving units. Also, a lot of the data seems to support the whole "What about the idea that you will never engage", like getting more mutas as opposed to attack. And in ZvZ, you are definitely engaging with your mutas.
Yes, there are times when you engage marines directly, but it's when you have an overwhelming amount of mutas, definitely not in a 20 vs 15 situation.
The real issue that you seem to have ignored in your post is that you get upgrades FOR SNIPING TANKS AND/OR BUILDINGS. Not to engage marines directly. Now with basic math I'll show how upgrades are better:
Mutas do 9/3/1 damage
Upgrade gives +1/+.33/+.11
You have 10 0/0 mutas... each burst volley is doing 10*9 = 90 damage on the first hit (no bounces)
You have 11 0/0 mutas... each burst volley is doing 11*9 = 99 damage on the first hit
You have 10 1/0 mutas... each burst volley is doing 10*10 = 100 damage on the first hit.
Yes, it's only 1 damage, but that number is compounded when you get to higher muta counts. Not to mention the fact that armor upgrades help SO much against muta attack.
You're getting MORE damage with an upgrade than you are at an extra muta when you have more than 10 mutas. This is math. You are going to be able to snipe turrets and lone units quicker with the upgrade.
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SC2 is weird and confusing :/
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i dont really agree with this as it assumes pure marine vs muta and no control by either and or supporting units (which is very important in determining the overall effectivness of the marines and the mutalisks) im still convinced that +1 is better overall when mutas are controlled correctly and allow for better sniping of tanks and medivacs etc as well as serving as a basis for late game broodlord play.
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I think a lot of people do this kind of analysis and conclude that upgrades are bad, but they're wrong. The problem is that you're not really taking into account that upgrades affect all current *and future* units. So sure, if you're only ever going to get 15 mutas, it's not worth getting an upgrade, but if you continue to replenish your muta count, the upgrades are important because you never have to buy them again. Extra mutas die and the investment in them is gone forever, while the upgrade stays forever.
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I don't understand the Get mutas instead of mutas point...
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The upgrade is also a teensy bit cheaper than another muta in terms of a quarter of an overlord and a larva, but usually you're getting upgrades to help you deal with what's going to be going on once you hit max supply. I'd say the decision comes down to how precarious your situation is when you have the 100/100 to spend, and that's pretty intuitive. If you're scared enough that you don't know if you can last until your upgrade is completed, sure grab another muta.
Maybe you skip the air upgrades if you plan to go ultra only without leaving the option to switch to broods, but I don't know how you'd make that decision.
Unless you're fighting mutas versus DTs or something, just having mutalisks out would usually signify a commitment to a longer game, which would mean tier 3 something, with upgrades. If your upgrades are slow that's probably not good.
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oh wait, didn't realise this thread was made by belial.
/thread please because this is not the first ( nor the last unfortunatly ) thread that he makes that just doesn't have any connection to the real game itself. sorry for being blunt but this is just how it is
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This is so awesome, I actually got upgrades very early for mutas, now I can leave them back with confidence till I get a larger group. Thank you!
I <3 people that lay all this out in math.
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God some peoples comments in this thread are so stupid they keep asking the worst questions and it makes me think they didnt read the thread! Good post mate, some things in this are a lil taken out of context of the actual game but some interesting info definitely. My only question would be broodlords etc late game but thats already been discussed, keep it up!
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On February 17 2012 09:16 TechSc2 wrote:
oh wait, didn't realise this thread was made by belial.
/thread please because this is not the first ( nor the last unfortunatly ) thread that he makes that just doesn't have any connection to the real game itself. sorry for being blunt but this is just how it is
I have to 2nd this, the data is just not relevant to the game at all. Mutas are not meant to engage marines directly. The purpose is to use their mobility to exploit weaknesses, and then do as much damage as possible before the opponent can defend. The only time you will be fighting marines head on is when they are too spread out, or you have an overwhelming amount of mutas, in which case carapace is not useful at all. It is a lot better to be able to take out a chunk of marines and then fly away before more marines come.
Another thing that isn't accounted for is that upgrades takes a while to get. If you start upgrades early on you can get +2 attack faster once you reach a muta count where upgrades are relevant.
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I know i'm a low level scrub, but isn't the muta primarily used as a 'harass' unit even in big numbers in that you want to do whatever damage you can and escape without taking losses? I think this is why carapace is the more popular choice? It does not matter how slowly you do the damage as long as you escape alive so you can attack again from another venerable angle.
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Thank you very much for this work. I think this means we can delay getting upgrades until we have 15 mutas so the carapace will be done when I get 30 :D much appreciated for grunt work.
About the focus firing, I think that really depends on the situation. Wouldn't stutter stepping the mutas overcome the repositioning deficit?
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On February 17 2012 14:42 DeCoup wrote:
I know i'm a low level scrub, but isn't the muta primarily used as a 'harass' unit even in big numbers in that you want to do whatever damage you can and escape without taking losses? I think this is why carapace is the more popular choice? It does not matter how slowly you do the damage as long as you escape alive so you can attack again from another venerable angle.
Carapace is not the more popular choice, and for a reason. You want to be able to do damage as fast as possible until the opponent comes to defend. Then you fly away and attack somewhere else. Carapace doesn't do anything if you arent getting hit in the first place.
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This thread is dumb.
Carapace is awesome cause you want to keep your mutas alive more than you want to kill 10 marines. You want to fly in, kill stuff and leave with as few losses as possible.
Also, why do you want those 10 marines dead? what benefit is killing 500mins worth of trash troops that can be remade from reactor rax in no time? That's what banelings are for.
The question you should be asking is 'how many mutas to 1 or 2 shot a tank? What about a turret? how much dose that change if i get attack ups'
You have X amount of seconds to do damage with your mutas before marines arrive and you lose everything.
You also have X amount of supply available for drones, ground army and mutas. That upgrade gives you more supply elsewhere.
This has value.
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From a Terran perspective when I know I am going to lose my marines to muthas , like when muthas come to clean up a drop, I will focus fire muthas. With focus fire upgrades are more noticeable. But like what everyone says you aren't supposed to fight marines with muthas. The only noticeable upgrade I would recommend is the carapace upgrade when there are +2 attack thors on the map who can 2 shot muthas instead of normally 3 shot.
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I almost never use mutas in a direct engage in zvt  +1 is still good for
-turrets
-addons
-errant tanks
etc
similar for toss, cannons etc. Once you get 30+ and you are ready to direct engage you've probably already won, with all of the damage, because active muta staying alive is trouble for your opponent
Edit: info is still interesting/useful, particularly for zvz, thank you!
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For ZvT, I think it's bad to say ignore upgrades. if you ever intend to get broodlords in the late game, vikings get much weaker against air when you have 2 or 3 armour, which you won't have if you ignore upgrades until 25 minutes.
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another fun fact: mutalisks kill everything that protoss can make!
:D great work on the math. always love when people crunch number for the better of everyone else
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"0/0 vs 0/0 = 9-10-11 (~10)
1/0 = 10 - 11 - 10 (~10)
0/1 = 11 - 11 - 11 (11)
1 Additional Mutalisk = 11 - 11 - 12 (~11, almost 12)."
WTF does this even mean? What does 9-10-11 mean? What do the numbers mean?
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maybe this is a stupid question, but the whole math behind upgrades seems so counterintuitive to me that ill ask it anyway: how are the results affected if you instead of saying 1 muta vs 1 upgrade, say 2 mutas vs 2 upgrades? does 12 0/0 mutas do better than 10 1/1 mutas and are 32 0/0 mutas better than 30 1/1 or 0/2?
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What about accounting for the upgrade time?
Each mutalisk only takes 33 seconds to build, but the upgrades take minutes (160,190,220 etc), so if you wait until you have 30 mutalisks before starting upgrades, you are never going to get anywhere.
In order to have +2 armor done by the time you have 30 mutalisks (when it is worth having), you have to start the upgrades immediately.
The testing I did showed that when you have 30 mutas, it's worth having +1 done, but not +2. So you should probably start +2 carapace somewhere between 20-25 mutas, depending on how you lose them.
Whether the marines are 3/3 or 0/0 didn't really matter - it's still better to have 21 mutas against 3/3 marines than 20 0/1 mutas.
As I've said, if macro slips, or when the supply cap becomes an issue though, you may want to upgrade. So in a realistic game, you'll probably have 0/2 mutas, but only in very very lategame.
The first attack upgrade brings muta damage from 9-3-1 to 10-4-2.
This is actually wrong. The first attack upgrade does +1/+0/+0. That's why carapace >>>>>>>>> attack in ZvZ, and in muta vs muta, armor applies 3x more than attack (ie armor reduces attacks by -1/-1/-1 from glaive). This has a lot to do with why attack is actually kind of useless for mutas.
1. You DON'T FOCUS FIRE marines. You focus fire the medivacs THEN the marines. Whether you focus fire marines depend on how many mutas you have. Having mutas just enough to 1shot without overkilling marines or less = focus fire, otherwise you a-move.
I actually tested this, and this is horrrrrribly wrong. Don't do this. Also, you should never focus fire with mutalisks, unless it's a specific 1 target you want removed in a larger group (ie tank in group of marines, thor in the base, etc).
2. Having extra mutalisks does not give you TIMINGS. It requires time to fly to the enemy base.
Given that standard ZvT lair timing is about 55-65 supply, I don't think timings with mutas are a big deal anymore. People learned that macro and better econ >>>>>>> a small opportunity to maybe kill 2 SCVs with a few mutas.
Air upgrades benefit broods and corruptors as well. (And while not the most needed upgrade in the game still helpful to have.) As far as raw data goes ill take your word that an extra muta is better. (I tend to forget +1 attack til later anyways so I follow your advice regardless) however when looking at the bigger picture starting upgrades at an earlier stage could be more beneficial overall.
Sure, but consider testing out broodlords upgrades and seeing if they are worth it.
And, when you get broodlords, you are usually maxed and have an extremely high gas income. As I've already said, getting upgrades when maxed is completely fine, if not preferable. Just make sure you know why you are getting your BL upgrades - I'd hazard that carapace is much better than weapons for broodlords, just due to them being high health units that do relatively lower dps (and broodlings being the source of high damage).
3. Having attack means you can focus fire TURRETS faster, giving SCVs less time to react and repair
Having carapace means you can stay in turret fire to focus TURRETS faster, and that you'll have more mutas in the long run of the game, meaning when you normally would have maybe 15 mutas, you would have 17 at that moment in the game when you focus down turrets. Also, an extra muta does just as much to focus a turret down as another muta, as well as adding life to the ball.
4. Armor is useless vs SCVs
So is attack.
5. You start upgrades because by the time that your upgrades finish, you'll have enough mutas for the upgrades to matter. Mutas are not meant to end the game early, and thus you WANT upgrades to stack up later into the game.
According to the data, you should start +1 carapace around when you have 20-25 mutas, to kick in when you are 25-30 mutas deep.
Which goes against what 99% of zergs do - start an upgrade (and most of the attack, attack instead of carapace) the second spire pops.
6. Something called zerglings and banelings.
There's nothing in this thread about lings and banes. Irrelevant. However, most people are aware that for ling/bane, you should only get +1 carapace, and further upgrades aren't that important the higher the siege tank count (+1 siege tanks will always 2 shot ling/bane, but +0 tanks 3 shot +1 lings, that's why +1 carapace is important midgame upgrade). So you just go for melee on single evo. But that's another topic, and something people know already.
ZvZ:
People don't get more than 0-2 because it is more beneficial to use that gas to tech to infestors when muta-war is at a stalemate. At no point should you have more than 1-2.
Yes. Most of the time, people won't move past +1 upgrade even. That doesn't mean games don't occur where something out of the ordinary occurs - I've had an actualy game where 1/3 saved me vs 2/2. I was playing against someone who had the advantage the entire game, a HUGE gas lead, and I even got infestors out. When someone is up a mining base, and it's 6 base vs 5 base, it's kind of hard to use 15 mutas with infestor support to deal with 30 mutas. Only reason I won was because I had 1/3 - although it was his game to throw away, the comeback would never have happened if I didn't have 1/3.
Also, muta zvz is susceptible to fast tech switches if you muta count goes too low, ultra count drops, infestor count drops, et cetera. It's entirely possible in extreme lategame ZvZ that a huge, epic, ultra vs ultra battle occurs, and you lose all your infestors. If you lose all your infestors, the opponent can beat you with pure muta if he has a gas advantage, so hopefully, you kept up your upgrades in ZvZ.
Don't tell people not to focus fire man. You know perfectly well how vastly different blink affects everything. You have to focus fire targets at random against small amounts of stalkers or they will just blink away.
I've stated that the tests were done without blink. I also said against small or particular targets, you may want to FF.
Against a group of blink stalkers with your mutas though, if you were to engage and know no reinforcements would come.... that's different. I didn't test blink. But I'd love to see someone test it. Or, you can just bash me for actually trying to learn something about the game, and I'll eventually test it myself.
You should go 2-0 before 1-1 because:
1. Storm doesn't discriminate
2. You shouldn't be engaging anything with your mutas in ZvP, muta harass works different in this matchup.
1. You should be dodging storm, and when storm is out, you should be moving to hive tech or lots of roaches and busting toss.
2. You should engage small numbers of stalkers if you can. Again, as I've said, carapace is just as worthy for attack for harass, it means you can stay around longer to attack.
And don't pretend that every game is so perfect too. Your mutas will always take damage in a real game. With carapace, you will lose less mutas over the course of the game, and have a larger ball later on than normal. Means a lot more damage.
And often times a game is decided by a single engagement. You should have the right upgrade for that engagement.
Lastly, you honestly think your 1 hour of unit testing makes you smarter than the top zergs in the world? Getting double spire gives you many boons:
1. When you mass mutas, opponents will shut down your entire gameplan and K.O. you if they snipe your spire
2. When you mass mutas with double spire, your transition will be broodlords
3. You can morph greater spire while upgrading
4. Having more mutas cost more supply
Most pros don't go double spire. I also stated that in ZvP, it may be very useful to go double spire because of base trade scenarios. You can just as easily transition to broodlords on single spire. And as these test have shown, upgrading while having good macro is a waste generally compared to just getting more upgrades.
I also stated that the supply cap is an issue that is ignored in these tests, so when approaching max, you should get the best upgrade according to the match-up.
You cannot just get from 0 to 30 muta's instantly, nor does larvea actually permit it in a normal game. Zerg produces overlords/drones/units from that 1 larvea
Larva has never been a limited factor for muta production for me. It's generally gas that limits muta production. Most Muta play has a macro hatch incorporated very early into the build as well.
i dont really agree with this as it assumes pure marine vs muta and no control by either and or supporting units (which is very important in determining the overall effectivness of the marines and the mutalisks) im still convinced that +1 is better overall when mutas are controlled correctly and allow for better sniping of tanks and medivacs etc as well as serving as a basis for late game broodlord play.
I did tests with medivacs too, and they didn't change the results, all medivacs do is make the results extremely variable but still follow the same general pattern. As long as you magic box against thors, you should be fine, and you would want carapace over attack still.
Yes, there are times when you engage marines directly, but it's when you have an overwhelming amount of mutas, definitely not in a 20 vs 15 situation.
In a large engagement, you have no choice but to engage with your mutas against the full head-on army of Terran, ling/bane vs rine/tank, and the mutas to make kiting less effective and add crucial DPS. You want the better upgrade in such situations.
Also, I only tested with 20 vs 15, 20 vs 20, et cetera, to best show off better choices. If I were to test 20 mutas vs 8 marines (drop), the results would be onesided and I don't think you'd be able to tell what upgrade or choice is better.
By testing 20 mutas vs 15 marines, I could show which upgrade or choice is best for real-game scenarios like 15 mutas vs 8 marines.
Yes, it's only 1 damage, but that number is compounded when you get to higher muta counts. Not to mention the fact that armor upgrades help SO much against muta attack.
Yes, it is quite counterintuitive that upgrades mean so little in ZvT.
I think a lot of people do this kind of analysis and conclude that upgrades are bad, but they're wrong. The problem is that you're not really taking into account that upgrades affect all current *and future* units. So sure, if you're only ever going to get 15 mutas, it's not worth getting an upgrade, but if you continue to replenish your muta count, the upgrades are important because you never have to buy them again. Extra mutas die and the investment in them is gone forever, while the upgrade stays forever.
So I do a scientific test, and I'm the person who is wrong because it goes against what I assume to be correct with zero testing? Damn you scientific method!
In ZvT, you are better off just replacing the mutas and never getting any upgrade until you reach near the 30 muta point. As for broodlords, I believe they benefit more from ground melee upgrade, not air, but I will be sure to test broodlords too.
You will have less dead mutas if you upgrade as outlined in the OP, that's the whole point. Also, upgrades on zero living mutas isn't exactly helpful.
I don't understand the Get mutas instead of mutas point...
It means the marginal benefit is higher with more mutas instead of upgrades.
So if you have 20k gas, what is the best choice? According to the data:
ZvT: Get 20 mutas
ZvZ: Get 19 mutas and +1 carapace (if you want to be technical, 18.5 mutas and +1 cara).
ZvP: Get 19 mutas and +1 attack
That's what it means. It also impacts when to upgrade:
ZvT: When you have 20+ mutas.
ZvZ: Immediately, always.
ZvP: Immediately, rarely.
The upgrade is also a teensy bit cheaper than another muta in terms of a quarter of an overlord and a larva, but usually you're getting upgrades to help you deal with what's going to be going on once you hit max supply. I'd say the decision comes down to how precarious your situation is when you have the 100/100 to spend, and that's pretty intuitive. If you're scared enough that you don't know if you can last until your upgrade is completed, sure grab another muta.
As I've said, the tests ignore the supply cap and bad macro. If your macro slips, or the supply cap becomes an issue, upgrade.
But these tests should now be helpful in letting you know which upgrade to go for.
Good post mate, some things in this are a lil taken out of context of the actual game but some interesting info definitely. My only question would be broodlords etc late game but thats already been discussed, keep it up!
Thanks. I never said you had to apply the results, but some people are just so dogmatic. A real game obviously has differences, and in reality, I would start upgrades a little earlier than recommended by the findings (ie +1 cara at about 15 mutas instead of 20+ in ZvT). But they definitely say interesting things.
Like now we know when spire pops, don't start an upgrade. Most people in ZvT, when spire pops, they immediately start an upgrade (most of the time attack), and then start mutas. Now, we know that you shouldn't start an upgrade. You should make all mutas, then get the upgrade. In ZvZ, now we know how important carapace really is, but in ZvP, how little it matters.
What was really interesting, was how little upgrades mattered in the face of, say, 3/3 marines, or 3/3 stalkers. The equation never changed.
I'll be doing a little test on corruptor vs viking, and broodlord vs various units in a bit.
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About the focus firing, I think that really depends on the situation. Wouldn't stutter stepping the mutas overcome the repositioning deficit?
Maybe if you have perfect micro, but I doubt it. Feel free to test it yourself.
Carapace is not the more popular choice, and for a reason. You want to be able to do damage as fast as possible until the opponent comes to defend. Then you fly away and attack somewhere else. Carapace doesn't do anything if you arent getting hit in the first place.
In a real game you will always take damage. With the right upgrade choice, you will hopefully be able to make it so it's just damage, and not a lost muta.
The whole 'don't get hit' thing is such BS too. If you watch pro play, you will always see them engage small numbers of units whenever they favorably can, not to mention drops. If you watch DRG, he is actually extremely aggressive with mutas, constantly engaging marine counts that you question if he can win (he'll use 15 mutas vs 10 marines many times with micro). Also, there's always a large ling/bane/muta vs rine/tank fight - with the right upgrade, you will better engage.
The idea you can sink 2k/2k into some units, and just never have to use them for a fight, is just ludicrous. Pro zergs always use their mutas in fights, and they always take damage. I get the 'idea' behind them, but what really happens in the game is much more.
And as I've said a million times, carapace means you can stay around under fire to do damage longer.
Also, why do you want those 10 marines dead? what benefit is killing 500mins worth of trash troops that can be remade from reactor rax in no time? That's what banelings are for.
marines often protect important targets, like siege tanks and SCVs and production/tech/necessary buildings.
The question you should be asking is 'how many mutas to 1 or 2 shot a tank? What about a turret? how much dose that change if i get attack ups'
The question is better put this way:
"Would I faster kill a siege tank, with 10 stimmed marines on the way, with +1 carapace mutas that can survive a bit more heat, or +1 attack that may snipe tha tank faster, or an extra muta, which will give some extra damage and some extra life for the muta ball? Which choice has the best relative cost?"
Carapace gives you more time.
From a Terran perspective when I know I am going to lose my marines to muthas , like when muthas come to clean up a drop, I will focus fire muthas. With focus fire upgrades are more noticeable. But like what everyone says you aren't supposed to fight marines with muthas. The only noticeable upgrade I would recommend is the carapace upgrade when there are +2 attack thors on the map who can 2 shot muthas instead of normally 3 shot.
You will less quickly focus a muta down with carapace, a 1 additional muta ball will clean up quicker, etc.
For ZvT, I think it's bad to say ignore upgrades. if you ever intend to get broodlords in the late game, vikings get much weaker against air when you have 2 or 3 armour, which you won't have if you ignore upgrades until 25 minutes.
If you have a +1 upgrade advantage against vikings, the broodlord will survive 2 more shots. The air attack itself of broodlords isn't the main damage dealer.
If you want to get carapace slightly earlier in anticipation of lategame, go for it.
But now you will know that you should make the mutas first,and don't get the upgrade until after 15 or so mutas, instead of right when spire pops.
WTF does this even mean? What does 9-10-11 mean? What do the numbers mean?
9-10-11 refers to 3 test events, and the number of mutalisks left over. The number in parenthesis is just the rough total, so you can compare it to other tests.
Sorry, I'll edit OP to make that clearer.
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On February 18 2012 05:18 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +I think a lot of people do this kind of analysis and conclude that upgrades are bad, but they're wrong. The problem is that you're not really taking into account that upgrades affect all current *and future* units. So sure, if you're only ever going to get 15 mutas, it's not worth getting an upgrade, but if you continue to replenish your muta count, the upgrades are important because you never have to buy them again. Extra mutas die and the investment in them is gone forever, while the upgrade stays forever. So I do a scientific test, and I'm the person who is wrong because it goes against what I assume to be correct with zero testing? Damn you scientific method! In ZvT, you are better off just replacing the mutas and never getting any upgrade until you reach near the 30 muta point. As for broodlords, I believe they benefit more from ground melee upgrade, not air, but I will be sure to test broodlords too. You will have less dead mutas if you upgrade as outlined in the OP, that's the whole point. Also, upgrades on zero living mutas isn't exactly helpful.
The problem with "scientific" tests is that you are forced to abstract out a lot of stuff to isolate a situation. The hard part is then extrapolating the right conclusions for more general situations, or figuring out what situations your results apply to.
Here, your experiment is a single engagement with X mutas with Y/Z upgrades vs W marines/stalkers/mutas with U/V upgrades or something. So that's great for a single engagement. If you're going to engage units one time in the game, your results are perfectly applicable. You've confirmed that upgrades are bad if you're only going to engage once with a small number of units. You've also come up with what number "small" is. However, in your experiment you never poke and back off, add in more units, etc... so you can't expect your results to hold true for an entire game.
My claim is that it's not surprising that you need a lot of mutas for upgrades to be good for a single battle. The benefit to upgrades is that they are good for multiple engagements, which is why your experiment doesn't do them justice.
Now while my claim is simply conjecture, it's completely logical and founded in previous results of years of people playing RTS games. So it's an appropriate way for a scientist to think. If you just do experiments without thinking about real-world situations, you're not a scientist, you're a lab tech.
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The tests simply show what's the best choice: Attack, Armor, or an additional mutalisk, given limited resources. The tests best exaggerate the differences between the choices, but whether it's 20 mutas vs 15 marines, or 15 mutas vs a push or 12 mutas vs a drop or 3/3 marines with medivac support, the choices still remain the same in order of which is best.
I don't understand what your point is. I never said upgrades were bad. I just said with limited resources, an additional mutalisk is way more competitive than getting an upgrade.
I also stated that supply cap, macro slip us, and future plans in the game can change what you want to do.
There's obviously a right and wrong way to do things. Is double spire best? Is single spire? Attack, or carapace? Is Nestea an idiot for going attack? Or is leenock and DRG stupid for going carapace? What about leenock's double spire? Should you go fast upgrades, or slow? I hope these results have answered these questions.
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I'm not sure how to best test a muta sniping a tank and comparing which upgrades are better, but doing some preliminary testing shows that an additional muta > carapace > upgrade when I plant a tank at a certain spot, and have marines a-moved from a certain point towards the mutas.
Also going to test broodlords.
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On February 17 2012 17:35 BreakfastBurrito wrote:I almost never use mutas in a direct engage in zvt +1 is still good for
Kinda off topic, but you're probably missing out a bit. Used properly they're awesome for focusing medivacs and/or tanks while your lings and blings occupy the marines. It makes army control a bit harder since to do it properly you'll have to deal with 3 control groups, but using your mutas along with your ling/bling is really helpful to keep Terran from reaching scary numbers of tanks
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1. Focusing medivacs is bad?
You realize that the faster you can focus fire a medivac down, the less marines can unload or get healed. It ALSO destroys a push such that they cannot stim again.
Your tests assume that medivacs are only healing during the duration of the fight, which is faaaaaaaar from the truth. If you have to disengage marines with your mutas, which is 90% of the time, you will have done 0 damage if medivacs arent dead because the medivacs will have healed up every marine.
I challenge you to try marine+medivac again with your mutas, but this time you snipe the medivac and fly away, and reengage.
2. Attack does help against SCVs, the bounce is increased.
3. Difference between 1-shotting a turret and 2-shotting a turret will decide whether SCVs get around to repairing or not, which can change the outcome of the game.
4. Muta timings do not mean a timing where I go in with all my mutas and units when I hit an upgrade, it means that:
At 12 minute mark - I have +1 attack done - I can therefore do more damage than the enemy expects, resulting in him bringing too little marines to defend or not having enough stuff just because of this specific timing.
5. When you have 30 mutas, you're probably already upgrading your greater spire. If you're starting your 0-2 now, guess what, you cant. You will have 0-1 broodlords instead of 1-2. Yes, this is extremely important in the scope of the game. If you don't plan on teching to broodlords, I doubt you'll be getting enough mutas (15) to warrant upgrades anyways.
6. Having 1-0 attack does something really magical. It increases the damage of single-target damage by a large percentage. The reason why getting 1 extra muta seems so good is because it loses effectiveness at a lower rate when you are being shot at, and because the full damage of bounces are calculated.
However, what mutas really need is single-target damage. Would you rather kill a depot and do 100 damage to another or deal 350 damage to one and 200 to another?
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Very meticulous thread!
I hope no one reads it so everyone still goes for attack upgrades '-'
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15 Mutas vs 15 Marines + 1 tank.
I set the tank on a specific spot, the mutas somewhere, and the marines somewhere. I have the mutas snipe the tank, and run back, and I have the marines stim forward. The set up is so that the tank is in between the marines and tank, on the "Arena" terrain of Unit Tester Online. I am testing to see which choice of attack, armor, and 1 more muta, snipes the tank with the most mutas left over.
15 0/0 Mutas vs 1/1 15 Marines with Stim/Shield
... = 11-12-12 (~12)
1/0 Mutas = 13-13-12 (~13)
0/1 Mutas = 12-13-13 (~13)
1 Additional Muta = 14-13-14 (~14)
I did these tests with some regularity, there are markers on the map that I made sure all the unit stood at the same spots for this. I'm surprised the results came out as regular as they did though.
For this rough test, it seems that the results are the same in terms of "bbbbbut I never engage with my mutas, I use them to snipe stuff!".
I don't mind if you disagree, but please have a reason.
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On February 18 2012 06:10 Belial88 wrote:
15 Mutas vs 15 Marines + 1 tank.
I set the tank on a specific spot, the mutas somewhere, and the marines somewhere. I have the mutas snipe the tank, and run back, and I have the marines stim forward. The set up is so that the tank is in between the marines and tank, on the "Arena" terrain of Unit Tester Online. I am testing to see which choice of attack, armor, and 1 more muta, snipes the tank with the most mutas left over.
15 0/0 Mutas vs 1/1 15 Marines with Stim/Shield
... = 11-12-12 (~12)
1/0 Mutas = 13-13-12 (~13)
0/1 Mutas = 12-13-13 (~13)
1 Additional Muta = 14-13-14 (~14)
I did these tests with some regularity, there are markers on the map that I made sure all the unit stood at the same spots for this. I'm surprised the results came out as regular as they did though.
For this rough test, it seems that the results are the same in terms of "bbbbbut I never engage with my mutas, I use them to snipe stuff!".
I don't mind if you disagree, but please have a reason.
Here's a reason for ya.
Mutalisk damage = 9, +1 for every attack
Tank health = 160 hitpoints, 1 armor.
So 8 damage per muta with no upgrade. 160/8 = 20 shots to kill a tank
So 9 damage per muta with 1 upgrade. 160/9 = 18 shots to kill a tank
With 10 damage per muta with 2 upgrade. 160/10 = 16 shots to kill a tank
Suddenly you see that there is a benefit to getting attack, because if you test with the right amount of mutas, you will be able to 1shot a tank, among other objects worthy of attacking.
If you stay for 1 extra shot, you might lose 2 extra mutas.
Because you will be losing mutas in most games, there is a higher likelihood your muta count will be hovering around these "sweet spot" numbers.
EDIT:
These may seem like minuscule differences, but you have to remember the differences between getting attack, armor and extra mutas too, are minuscule. It is basically comparing which small advantage is smaller. There are many reasons why an extra muta is not good. Specifically, taking 1 shot to kill a medivac compared to 2 may be the difference between a drop killing your spire and your spire living. The ability to kill something in one-hit is extremely important.
Another problem is when you have 2/2 marines vs. 1-0 mutas, which is much more likely with the current metagame, it is much more beneficial to have 1-0 attack because 1 extra muta has its damage decreased by 6. The higher the armor count on the marines the worse an extra muta is, similar to the reason of ZvZ.
The beef I have with your calculations is because you tell us that it is non-conclusive, and then you subsequently tells everyone that they must do what you do because it is factual. Make up your mind.
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1. Focusing medivacs is bad?
You realize that the faster you can focus fire a medivac down, the less marines can unload or get healed. It ALSO destroys a push such that they cannot stim again.
0/0 vs 0/0, no stim, no combat shield
8 Mutas vs 8 marines + Medivac = 6-6-7 (~6)
8 Mutas vs 8 Marines + Medivac, Focusing Medivac = 5-4-5 (~5)
Where did you get this idea that focusing medivacs was a good idea? Do you have any data or any reason you say what you say, because it sounds an awfully lot like you have no idea what you are talking about.
I just tested it, and it's pretty obvious that you should NOT focus the medivac.
Of course, there are in-game scenarios where you'd want to focus down a medivac (attacking a drop and your ground army is there and you want to be active with mutas, so you snipe medivac so your mutas can leave and you can clean up with lings, this also prevents T from sniping mutas with found drop when you can just use lings to clean it up).
But in a combat scenario? No way.
Please. If you ask, that's fine. But stating something as fact when you clearly have no clue what you are talking about, and never tested it...
I challenge you to try marine+medivac again with your mutas, but this time you snipe the medivac and fly away, and reengage.
Too much human interference, I fear the results would not be reliable or consistent. I'll do a quick test though.
8 Mutas vs 8 marines + Medivac = 6-6-7 (~6)
8 Mutas vs 8 Marines + Medivac, Focusing Medivac, leaving, going back =
I stopped, these results are way worse than just sniping the medivac alone and staying to engage...
2. Attack does help against SCVs, the bounce is increased.
Not completely true, attack does not improve bounce damage. Attack does not scale +1/+1/+1, but rather a faction, so +1/fraction/fraction. Given how SCV2 calculates damage, you don't always get an improvement.
1 Muta vs 3 SCVs, bounce damage test:
Attack Upgrade Level = Main Hit/Bounce1/Bounce2
0 = -9/-3/-1
1 = -10/-4/-2
2 = -11/-4/-2
3 = -12/-4/-2
So +1 attack may help, but further upgrades do not help with bounce.
Furthermore, you would need +3 attack on your mutas to change the critical hit numbers to kill SCVs. Given how complicated bounce works though, I don't think upgrades really change much in terms of how to deal with SCVs.
Another test!
How many volleys for 1 mutalisk, with X upgrade, to kill 4 SCVs.
0 = 16
1 = 15
2 = 14
3 = 13
In short, bounce did not make a significant difference in how many hits it took to kill an SCV (you would think with bounce, it would give more than a 1 difference in shots to kill).
3. Difference between 1-shotting a turret and 2-shotting a turret will decide whether SCVs get around to repairing or not, which can change the outcome of the game.
Is this a joke? +1 attack isn't going to be that dramatic a difference, nor will any upgrade. Also, +1 carapace would simply mean you could survive more turrets shots and deal more damage to the SCVs. Either T repairs in time, or he doesn't. Upgrade isn't going to make a huge difference on that...
4. Muta timings do not mean a timing where I go in with all my mutas and units when I hit an upgrade, it means that:
At 12 minute mark - I have +1 attack done - I can therefore do more damage than the enemy expects, resulting in him bringing too little marines to defend or not having enough stuff just because of this specific timing.
You are better off with 13 0/0 mutas at 12 minute than 12 1/0 mutas at 12 minutes. You would do more damage,a nd you can engage better.
What you say here makes absolutely zero sense. Your 1 additional muta flock will fare much better at 'doing damage more than the enemy expects' than a +1 armor muta, than a +1 attack muta flock.
5. When you have 30 mutas, you're probably already upgrading your greater spire. If you're starting your 0-2 now, guess what, you cant. You will have 0-1 broodlords instead of 1-2. Yes, this is extremely important in the scope of the game. If you don't plan on teching to broodlords, I doubt you'll be getting enough mutas (15) to warrant upgrades anyways.
Don't be a troll. It's pretty obvious GS timings aren't included in this analysis.
Also, I would argue that, if you macro well, having 0/1 broodlords out quicker instead of 1/2 broodlords later, is better. I will be doing a broodlord analysis later.
Maybe you should go into unit tester. You are full of these presumptions that have no basis in any testing or fact. See if what you say has any merit. Because you are just pulling out these 'facts' from no where, and it turns out they aren't even true.
6. Having 1-0 attack does something really magical. It increases the damage of single-target damage by a large percentage. The reason why getting 1 extra muta seems so good is because it loses effectiveness at a lower rate when you are being shot at, and because the full damage of bounces are calculated.
You are aware an extra mutalisk will add more damage too right? And you are aware that having "1 carapace is magical too" because you survive more shots?
Also, the whole thing about mutas is that attack is so worthless, because the bounces don't benefit from attack upgrades.
However, what mutas really need is single-target damage. Would you rather kill a depot and do 100 damage to another or deal 350 damage to one and 200 to another?
I would rather do maximum damage with minimum losses. With carapace, you can stick around longer due to being able to survive more shots. With no carapace, you must leave immediately. With an extra muta, you both deal more damage and survive more.
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The beef I have with your calculations is because you tell us that it is non-conclusive, and then you subsequently tells everyone that they must do what you do because it is factual. Make up your mind.
Do what you want with the data. You can continue playing with how you 'feel', or you can use actual data and facts to guide your choices in the game. The tests here are simply an attempt to find an empirical way to prove what the best choices are.
Even if a real game has differences, like maxing out, or you want to go hive with upgrades, it should lead you to make some new choices - Like don't start the upgrade immediately when spire finishes in ZvT, but rather, make the ~10 mutas first, then get the upgrade. Go for carapace instead of attack. Go for 1/1 in ZvP instead of 2/0. Go for 1/3 in ZvZ instead of 2/2. Race on upgrades in ZvZ. Et cetera.
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i still think upgrades are somewhat important for mutas:
a) you did not account for enemy upgrades. I would get +1 attack on mutas any day if it means i can clear up a nasty drop with mutas alone. Sure, if your opponent has 0/0 upgrades getting an extra muta will be better. But try to kill marines with 2 or 3 armor gettting healed by a medivac with your 0/0 mutas.
b) i am human and therefore screw up. If i screw up, my mutas die. Now, if i had one extra muta that muta would most probably have died as well. When i decide to get mutas again, upgrade will help, extra dead muta will not.
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On February 18 2012 05:18 Belial88 wrote:
There's nothing in this thread about lings and banes. Irrelevant. However, most people are aware that for ling/bane, you should only get +1 carapace, and further upgrades aren't that important the higher the siege tank count (+1 siege tanks will always 2 shot ling/bane, but +0 tanks 3 shot +1 lings, that's why +1 carapace is important midgame upgrade). So you just go for melee on single evo. But that's another topic, and something people know already.
While that point is true for the inner area of siege tank splash, that inner area comprises only 14% of the entire splash area of siege tank fire.
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On February 18 2012 06:41 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +The beef I have with your calculations is because you tell us that it is non-conclusive, and then you subsequently tells everyone that they must do what you do because it is factual. Make up your mind. Do what you want with the data. You can continue playing with how you 'feel', or you can use actual data and facts to guide your choices in the game. The tests here are simply an attempt to find an empirical way to prove what the best choices are. Even if a real game has differences, like maxing out, or you want to go hive with upgrades, it should lead you to make some new choices - Like don't start the upgrade immediately when spire finishes in ZvT, but rather, make the ~10 mutas first, then get the upgrade. Go for carapace instead of attack. Go for 1/1 in ZvP instead of 2/0. Go for 1/3 in ZvZ instead of 2/2. Race on upgrades in ZvZ. Et cetera.
Look, I agree with your go for attack first in ZvP and I don't agree with 1/1 instead of 2/0. But whatever. And I pretty much agree with your point in ZvZ, except you should never go beyond 1/2 realistically.
You should have 1k gas when you pop mutas in a muta build that it shouldn't matter. And how many times have we talked about the merits of attack that makes attack/carapace a preference/stylistic choice. But ZvT is not a game of -attack the marines-. There are almost always units underneath attracting marine fire, and you almost always want to snipe stuff (refer to the "sweet spot" argument). Anytime you are engaging marine DRG style, you are playing stylistically different from many players. Yes, I would also argue that you would want carapace with that style, but not everyone does that. What you are telling people is "Always get extra muta, then carapace, then attack".
In the way I play however, I find attack more useful because of the reasons listed. And I don't wanna ad-hominem you but, I can tell from obsing your games that your use of muta is completely wrong.
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On February 18 2012 06:49 Jombozeus wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2012 06:41 Belial88 wrote:The beef I have with your calculations is because you tell us that it is non-conclusive, and then you subsequently tells everyone that they must do what you do because it is factual. Make up your mind. Do what you want with the data. You can continue playing with how you 'feel', or you can use actual data and facts to guide your choices in the game. The tests here are simply an attempt to find an empirical way to prove what the best choices are. Even if a real game has differences, like maxing out, or you want to go hive with upgrades, it should lead you to make some new choices - Like don't start the upgrade immediately when spire finishes in ZvT, but rather, make the ~10 mutas first, then get the upgrade. Go for carapace instead of attack. Go for 1/1 in ZvP instead of 2/0. Go for 1/3 in ZvZ instead of 2/2. Race on upgrades in ZvZ. Et cetera. Look, I agree with your go for attack first in ZvP and I don't agree with 1/1 instead of 2/0. But whatever. And I pretty much agree with your point in ZvZ, except you should never go beyond 1/2 realistically. You should have 1k gas when you pop mutas in a muta build that it shouldn't matter. And how many times have we talked about the merits of attack that makes attack/carapace a preference/stylistic choice. But ZvT is not a game of -attack the marines-. There are almost always units underneath attracting marine fire, and you almost always want to snipe stuff (refer to the "sweet spot" argument). Anytime you are engaging marine DRG style, you are playing stylistically different from many players. Yes, I would also argue that you would want carapace with that style, but not everyone does that. What you are telling people is "Always get extra muta, then carapace, then attack". In the way I play however, I find attack more useful because of the reasons listed. And I don't wanna ad-hominem you but, I can tell from obsing your games that your use of muta is completely wrong.
"Do what you want with the data. You can continue playing with how you 'feel', or you can use actual data and facts to guide your choices in the game. The tests here are simply an attempt to find an empirical way to prove what the best choices are."
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Wait so I argue that +1 is good because of the additional bounce, you say I'm completely wrong and then post a few lines down that "+1 attack may help"...also people get carapace in zvz because of how much it negates the glaive damage. Usually +1 attack and carapace upgrades are the way to go. don't spread misinformation on me being wrong. We aren't discussing zvz anyways.
Again, I do appreciate when people take the time to run tests and get data. It opens many people's eyes to new aspects of the game at times. However in this situation the raw data does not transition into actual gameplay well.
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1 Broodlord (armor) vs 1 Vikings (attack), shots to die.
0 vs 0 = 9
1 vs 0 = 10
2 vs 0 = 11
3 vs 0 = 12
0 vs 1 = 9
1 vs 1 = 9
2 vs 1 = 10
3 vs 1 = 11
0 vs 2 = 8
1 vs 2 = 9
2 vs 2 = 9
3 vs 2 = 10
0 vs 3 = 8
1 vs 3 = 8
2 vs 3 = 9
3 vs 3 = 9
It is also worth noting that melee upgrades on broodlings are almost double the dps increase than broodlord air attack. Broodlords get .8 dps increase, while broodlings get 1.5.
It's hard to test how air attack stacks up with broodlords, but I think it's safe to say that FG, siege tanks splash, and broodlings are a larger source of the damage.
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Wait so I argue that +1 is good because of the additional bounce, you say I'm completely wrong and then post a few lines down that "+1 attack may help"...also people get carapace in zvz because of how much it negates the glaive damage. Usually +1 attack and carapace upgrades are the way to go. don't spread misinformation on me being wrong. We aren't discussing zvz anyways.
I said that attack doesn't benefit glaive. But, I did a quick test, and it showed that +1 attack benefits the glaive damage, while +2 and +3 do nothing for glaive bounce. Regardless, attack does not benefit glaive that much, so my original statement still stands, but I was surprised that +1 benefits glaive at all - I thought +1 and +2 did nothing for glaive, and it was +3 where glaive bounce got marginally improved.
I don't spread misinformation, I'm posting exactly what the results of these limited tests show. Feel free to do better tests.
People get +1 carapace in ZvZ because they know it's better. Now, people should be better informed about upgrades in all match-ups.
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I'm surprised how many people just completely ignore the results. If you want to do testing that shows results otherwise - maybe you can prove attack upgrade is worthy for sniping buildings, for example, than go for it. But I'm amazed how many people will see this post, and just argue against it. I feel like I'm saying the world is round here or something.
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Its a pretty well known fact that +1 attack is the only one that benefits glaive...which is why I mengtioned it. You don't understand why people get carapace in zvz. Its not just "its better" always. When it comes to muta vs muta carapace is better because the glaive bounces are almost completely negated when attacking two muta flocks. However if you're fighting nonmutas with your own thinking about +1 attack etc is the better choice. You are spreading misinformation in the fact that you just wrote that you didn't know +1 attack is where glaive damage is effected and have been arguing with the mindset attack upgrades don't benefit glaive until +3.
I don't want to "better" tests myself. You posted on an internet forum that is used for discussion and that is all I'm doing. You can't expect to post up online without being willing to take criticism and advice. As I've stated I appreciate you taking the time to run the tests you did. A lot of your other posts I've read are very helpful and are well thoughtout as well. However, this one I can't agree with.
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Its a pretty well known fact that +1 attack is the only one that benefits glaive...which is why I mengtioned it.
I did not know it. I knew about the whole 1/.333/.11 thing, but I assumed that it only kicked in to a full point of damage at +3, not +1 or 2.
You don't understand why people get carapace in zvz. Its not just "its better" always. When it comes to muta vs muta carapace is better because the glaive bounces are almost completely negated when attacking two muta flocks.
Yes, I am aware of this. If I wasn't before, the test here made it painfully obvious. ZvZ muta vs muta is actually the only situations where upgrades are extremely important. In ZvT I recommended you delay upgrades significantly, in ZvP you get +1 and maybe some others slowly, but in ZvZ, it's absolutely crucial that you get upgrades asap. I considered even double spire for ZvZ, but the gas cost is too much for another spire.
However if you're fighting nonmutas with your own thinking about +1 attack etc is the better choice.
Obviously. I made that pretty clear already.
. You are spreading misinformation in the fact that you just wrote that you didn't know +1 attack is where glaive damage is effected and have been arguing with the mindset attack upgrades don't benefit glaive until +3.
No... I actually tested this. I didn't put this all on a calculator you know.
I don't want to "better" tests myself. You posted on an internet forum that is used for discussion and that is all I'm doing. You can't expect to post up online without being willing to take criticism and advice. As I've stated I appreciate you taking the time to run the tests you did. A lot of your other posts I've read are very helpful and are well thoughtout as well. However, this one I can't agree with.
Besides you being quite rude, it seems you largely agree with the findings and posts I've made. I'm not sure what your issue is.
As for criticism and advice, I don't mind, but it's largely just people saying BUT I GET ATTACK TO SNIPE K? over and over without testing this claim. It'd be one thing if they asked "Could you do some sort of test to see what's better in regards to sniping stuff?" but they don't.
And then for you, well, you seem to agree with what I say, so I don't really understand what you are saying besides you keep harping on me for "misinformation" although it doesn't make sense why.
All I said was I always thought that the air attack worked as +1/+.33/+11, and thus, it was only at +3 it kicked in. Apparently, the sc2 system works a bit differently, and kicks it in at +1. I tested this, and showed this to be true. So, I realy don't know what you are getting at. My original thought never even came up.
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Interesting tests ..
afaik at least in ZvT most pros first get like 10-20 mutas before getting +1 attack. Because the upgrade takes a while, it finishes when they are about 20-30 mutas (if they commit). I think the reason why they build it slightly "too early" is that the upgrade take such a long time, so they'd have to few upgrades when they go for blords.
On another note; getting an extra muta is much faster than waiting for an upgrade, so even ZvZ it is probably better to get more mutas as the game might be already decided once your upgrade finishes ..
props for do-it-yourself SC2 nerding instead of simply trusting common sayings
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^ I think the tests showed than in ZvZ you really want to go for carapace instead of that extra mutalisk.
Feel free to do whatever you want. Better players have gone for attack, carapace, extra muta, and even double spire. I'm just simply trying to make sense of the variance we see even in pro play on upgrades.
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Thisll be my last post in this thread as I don't just want to spam it up anymore than its been. If I wanted to be rude I would have been. There were many more hostile posts. I didn't just say "you're wrong close thread" I attempted to argue my point in a civil way. I even applauded your efforts as you took the time to test something out that no one else did.
I agree with what you're sayin in regards to the specific scenario you enacted in your tests. However in an actual game there are many other concerns that will change the importance of an upgrade and the like. Timings, available gas, larva, map positioning overall unit comp of both sides etc. The situation just doesn't transition to actual gameplay as well as you'd like. Someone could run tests on the optimal number of marines needed to kill 4 collosus but forcefields, tanking units etc also need to be considered for the numbers to fit into actual gameplay. That's where the "I get attack to snipe" argument works. If every game fit the scenario you tested no one would be arguing. However, its not.
No hard feelings either way. As I previously said you've made some great points in other threads. There's no reason to go completely into the defensive and call everyone elses comments plain wrong and acting like other members are stupid. For now ill do things my way and you can do it yours
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So if you a-move mutas against an enemy force, then +1 muta is better than +1 attack.
But what about the following other situations?
1) What if you a-move mutas against an enemy, but you also have other forces that are soaking up the damage, i.e. zerglings. Then the extra damage from +1 attack would be better than the extra life of the +1 muta.
2) What if you're not doing direct engagements with your mutas at all, but instead picking off units without getting hit back? Then the extra damage from the +1 attack is also better.
Basically what I'm saying is that if your mutas are not getting hit too much, then +1 attack is better. I think there are times when the short term advantage of an extra muta makes a lot of sense, but the long term gains of the +1 attack is more valuable if you can afford it.
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The tests showed that:
1. Micro (besides pulling away hurt mutas) is detrimental. This is due to glaive bounce making focus fire kind of unpredictable, and the high dps making anything where you stop shooting even for a split second, is detrimental.
2. +1 carapace just makes the mutas live longer, and therefore deal more damage. Marines are low damage, low armor units, so upgrades in general are useful against them and generally just a +1 hit to kill -1 hit to die kind of unit. There's a reason why carapace is more expensive, and it's because the longer mutas live, the more damage they can do.
But what about the following other situations?
1) What if you a-move mutas against an enemy, but you also have other forces that are soaking up the damage, i.e. zerglings. Then the extra damage from +1 attack would be better than the extra life of the +1 muta.
2) What if you're not doing direct engagements with your mutas at all, but instead picking off units without getting hit back? Then the extra damage from the +1 attack is also better.
1. Well the enemy could focus fire the mutas. But I don't know, that's interesting. I'll try to test it later.
2. As I've said, +1 carapace also means you can survive more shots and be a bit more cavalier with your mutas. I did a test where 15 mutas snipe a tank protected by 15 stimmed marines, and the 1 additional muta ball killed the tank with more mutas left over, followed by carapace, followed by attack.
You can use your mutas however you like. If you really think you will never get hit with your mutas, of course, go for attack.
But I think these results show, that in a real game, when you will get attacked, when you will have to engage sometimes, and and when enemy units are present, it's better to have +1 carapace so you can take more shots. No terran will have a bse where there are zero marines, zero turrets. With carapace, or even more so with an extra muta, you can be a bit more cavalier with your mutas.
And there's still always drops you have to deal with. The tests showed which best dealt with drops, really.
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interesting, people go for +1 because the mutalisk is an harassment unit, which means you do damage and then run. Thats why its unimportant how much hp your muta group has. the damage is what counts. And against 0 armor you want your +1 air attack to finish when you hit 12ish mutas, against missile turrets canons.
Though i would encourage +2 building armor for terran, even if it means 3 ebays. Since the building upgrades in general hit zerg players off guard. that rely so heavily on weak fast attacking units in the early game vs terran.
Anyway back to the research on muta upgrades, are the marines 0/0. or since a terran will atleast have 1 upgrade, when you have to decide on one. (usually they go for attack since its better for sniping mutas, but if they would have to fight directly they would go for +1 armor. But normally they have eough gas for 1/1).
So for harassment every damage counts not survivability, and if you want to go for broodlords later on you want those attack upgrades for your corrupters (and armor for broodlords since the longer they survive the more army they produce), so getting the upgrades early saves you the second spire.
Atleast 0/0 air isn't a good idea if you face +2 attack air of the opponent. And infestors can really just save your air dominance if the opponent lets you.
So yeah if you want to fight directly, you probably don't need upgrades in the early stages of muta play. But for the job mutas do, you want the attack upgrades to finish when you have your 12 mutas ready and also in preparation for the lategame.
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^ As I've stated in the OP, 3/3 or 0/0 did not change how upgrades stacked against eachother.
, people go for +1 because the mutalisk is an harassment unit, which means you do damage and then run.
If you justify it that way, go for it. But in a real game, you would run into turrets, and marines, and so forth. With an extra muta, or +1 carapace, you can stay around longer, you can be more cavalier with your mutas. I did an additional test to try to test this out as well.
You can do whatever you want with this data. I'm just showing that, say, you want to snipe a tank with at least 1 marine around it, an additional muta > carapace > attack. If you want to attack SCVs and he runs back his marines, you could use an additional muta to stick around longer to kill more SCVs, and even engage the marines for a short while until a number arrived that you were uncomfortable with. You could use this data to deal with drops - now, you knwo that an additional muta will better deal with a drop than +1 attack, so you could lose less mutas dealing with drops. Best of all, when an engagement occurs, you can best crush the push with an additional muta over carapace over attack.
I mean, I'd love to see a pro game where the zerg player *never* gets hit by a marine. I'd love to see a pro game where zerg ONLY uses ling/bane to crush every rine/tank push. But you will always face marines, and you will always face a choice of "Do I stay and harass more and take damage, or leave prematurely before killing off this depot?"
Also, if you watch pro players like DRG, they are EXTREMELY aggressive with their mutas, constantrly using their mutas to engage groups of marines ~5-10 less than their own muta flock. That's why he's the best muta player, because he can so efficiently take out marines with his mutas, and know when to.
Atleast 0/0 air isn't a good idea if you face +2 attack air of the opponent. And infestors can really just save your air dominance if the opponent lets you.
According to the broodlord test I did, you want +1 carapace against +2 air, but that's it.
I would also argue that it's best to get hive earlier rather than later, using the gas for hive instead of upgrades, but that's obviously up to you. Besides, in lategame, when your on high econ and maxed out, of course, go for upgrades. But if you get your broodlords when your opponent is 1/1 instead of at 3/2, of course, upgrades don't matter as much, because you got the broodlords out earlier.
I even tested, showing that 0/0 mutas with 1 more muta, does better against 3/3 marines than 1/0 or 0/1 mutas.
I mean, if this is such a hard concept to grasp, just continue playing as you do. I just would like to make sense of how to play, and use some empirical method to guide my decisions. If you like to get attack because you *never* get hit by marines, keep at it.
I think I've posted enough in here. It's the same questions over and over. If you care to read the thread, you may learn something. If you don't care to learn, why did you stop in here at all? Like it makes a lot of logical sense to go 3/0 mutas right away instead of just going 1/2 or 2/1 or more mutas. Whatever.
The information is out there. Do what you want with it.
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I always assumed the first attack upgrade was +1/+1/+1 rather than +1/+0/+0 on the bounces.
So in ZvZ I thought attack and carapace had the same effect, so attack was better being cheaper.
Also a lot of times you will be doing damage without taking damage, as mutalisks are harrass units rather than fighting units, which makes attack upgrade better.
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United States7483 Posts
You're forgetting that it takes a long time to upgrade air weapons, and you're going to want them upgraded eventually, so the sooner you start +1, the sooner you can start +2, and so on. You're eventually going to want broods, and you'll want those upgraded, so the more time you spend building extra mutas instead of upgrading, the longer you'll be stuck without those upgrades.
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^ According to the tests, you want +1 carapace, not weapons, to finish around when you have 30 mutas. So you would want to start it around 20-25 mutas, not when spire pops. +2 has even less return than +1 does, due to the bounce damage not getting any additional benefit (+1 gives +1/+1/+1 while +2 gives +1/+0/+0 damage), so you wouldn't want to get +2 until maybe 40 mutas? Or, more likely, when you get maxed and supply or macro becomes an issue.
You'd rather have 30 0/0 mutas vs 3/3 marines than 29 mutas with 0/1, and 29 mutas with 0/1 than 29 mutas with 1/0.
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ty for testing this out. good thread
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^ Np. I feel like every upgrade should have a reason for it. Every pro zerg seems to do something different, and I constantly hear toss go "rofl scrub your 0/0 I'm 3/3" after their army of 20 dies to 200/200.
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except that from my own experience, 1-2 upgrades vs 2-0-0 stalkers owns them pretty bad. I dont even have to run away.
See in your last example, that person could be 196/200 and have carapace and attack. which would increase the strength of the army 1.2 times at least. the only other way to do that would be usign the drone crawler cancel trick to get all those actual units. more upgrades = less money required to have the same firepower.
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^ Maybe 1/2 is better than 2/1 for muta vs stalker. That would be interesting to test out. I think I did a test for 2/0 vs 0/2 vs 1/1 and 1/1 was always better or equal. Against stalkers it seems they are all pretty balanced, so it's more about relative costs. Unlike muta vs muta, where 0/2 is just miles ahead of even 2/1.
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EPT
