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Hi LemonyTang, thanks for the well written guide. I enjoyed it. I do have a question about the BO however.
It seems that adding the 2nd and 3rd factory at the time listed in your BO causes me to not have enough money to constantly produce out of all my structures... there's a lot of idle time on the factories until i can start making thors. i'm just wondering if you have a good reason for adding the 3rd factory so fast, as I can't seem to find one.
I tried another build order I saw Trump do and it seems a bit more flexible and spends money better. It's roughly:
9 depot
12 rax
13 gas
15 orbital
constant marines up to 5
@100 gas factory
@100% factory, 1 hellion
pressure with 5 marines/hellion
reactor on rax
tech lab on factory
CC @ 5:00min
2nd factory
2nd gas
@100% 2nd factory, swap onto reactor
use rax to scout or make more marines
@ 150/150 blue flame
This build gives you the flexibility to get an earlier tank if needed, and you get earlier blue flame. You get the 3rd factory a little later in this build and i find it spends money better.
Or, with your build order, I guess you could just make a later 3rd factory, use the rax earlier to make a tech lab for the 2nd factory.
Thoughts?
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Well, pressure with 5 marines and 2 hellions is different from pure hellions. If you were to go straight for 10 hellions, and he only had a single spine, you could out-right win or do critical damage, at least I'm finding so far in my hellion pushes even against 2/3 queen, 2 spine holds.
As always, make slight adjustments to your build if you find you can't actually spend your money, as day9 recently talked about on his daily last week (adjustments?) - flipping your build around is not something I recommend.
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This was a really nice guide! I agree that mech is the future of TvZ, especially with the snipe nerf now in play. I've been trying to use mech in all matchups ever since I started playing sc2. My chief problem vs zerg is their mobility... I feel very nervous pushing out on the map trying to take position when the zerg can easily skirt large portions of his army around and hit my fourth. Particularly in the late game with ultras >< However I think with the building walls and tank placement from this guide I should be fine. The tip about position being more important than hitting the zerg's eco is very prescient. I often die when trying to push right into the zerg after winning a few engagements, they just remax too fast.
But yes, thank you for the excellent guide, it answered a lot of my questions about TvZ mech.
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Thank you for this guide. I was looking to try mech in TvZ.
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This is one of the best guides I've ever seen on the strategy forum. Great work!
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Does anyone know a nice and strong timing attack with tanks+hellions?
maybe siegetanks or bf hellions or both?
I remember a match of MKP who killed a zerg instantly with such push but i don't know exactly the match.
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I noted that you wrote 'no more banelings' in the thread title, and you don't have anything on banelings in the post.
My favorite way of dealing with mech is going for +2+2+2 upgrades, and max on roach bane, with a few infestors, and going for an engagement where I flank at least, or surround, with just roach bane.
If the terran is clumped up, which the mech army often is when moving out, it seems to be quite effective. In addition, it allows you to remax quite fast on roach ling, giving you two engagements at max supply basically (assuming 5 vs 3 base, which seems to be the common scenario).
Have you ever met that style? How do you deal with it?
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In the mid game, when you have less anti-air. What I can do if he tries to drop roach on the tank with a lot of overlord?
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Very well written guide. Marine tank is IMHO a bit outdated and I think mech is the better option nowadays. I might be wrong
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What if they doom drop right in your tanks?
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First off all great guide. I was looking for a good guide to mech and found it!
I know everyone is going to laugh at me for this question, as people always do. But i cant seem to deal with ultras, whats the response. Everyone i ask just says "lol ultras they suck" then proceeds to give me literally no helpful tips. I personally find a shit ton of ultras a moving into my mech line terrifying (let alone an ultra flank).
Whats the general idea, lategame wise, of dealing with ultras? Is it focus firing tanks on somethin, but not other things? Is it landing any vikings you have in from to buffer (for like 1 second before they all die to 1 ultra) etc.
Cheers
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On March 22 2012 22:48 Squigly wrote:
First off all great guide. I was looking for a good guide to mech and found it!
I know everyone is going to laugh at me for this question, as people always do. But i cant seem to deal with ultras, whats the response. Everyone i ask just says "lol ultras they suck" then proceeds to give me literally no helpful tips. I personally find a shit ton of ultras a moving into my mech line terrifying (let alone an ultra flank).
Whats the general idea, lategame wise, of dealing with ultras? Is it focus firing tanks on somethin, but not other things? Is it landing any vikings you have in from to buffer (for like 1 second before they all die to 1 ultra) etc.
Cheers
In my experience, tanks are not that great against ultras. Try to get more thors, if he'S going for ultras, but even then it'S still pretty hard to deal with his tech switches.
Try building up a large tank count in mid game and transition to raven/viking + mech when you have saturated your third.
That'S the time you want to get some thors too. But keep up a good count of tanks to focus fire his infestors.
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I like the guide, but I think you fail to catch the importance of banshees and Ravens in the TvZ matchup, especially when playing mech.
It comes down to style, perhaps, but I prefer a more aggressive variation of mech that includes denying expos with banshees. The basic rule I use is always ahve at least 1 raven past 14-15 min, and if he is not making mutas, then make banshees.
Hunter Seeker and PDD are both useful. And you don't have to waste scans to kill creep and check for burrowed units. And banshees just rape ground armies and give your opportunity to play more aggressively.
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Great guide.You even get into detail with some of the common Z all ins  I look forward to meching in all MUs this weekend
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On March 22 2012 22:57 OmegaKnetus wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 22:48 Squigly wrote:
First off all great guide. I was looking for a good guide to mech and found it!
I know everyone is going to laugh at me for this question, as people always do. But i cant seem to deal with ultras, whats the response. Everyone i ask just says "lol ultras they suck" then proceeds to give me literally no helpful tips. I personally find a shit ton of ultras a moving into my mech line terrifying (let alone an ultra flank).
Whats the general idea, lategame wise, of dealing with ultras? Is it focus firing tanks on somethin, but not other things? Is it landing any vikings you have in from to buffer (for like 1 second before they all die to 1 ultra) etc.
Cheers In my experience, tanks are not that great against ultras. Try to get more thors, if he'S going for ultras, but even then it'S still pretty hard to deal with his tech switches. Try building up a large tank count in mid game and transition to raven/viking + mech when you have saturated your third. That'S the time you want to get some thors too. But keep up a good count of tanks to focus fire his infestors.
My main issue is that air units are pretty much useless against Ultras. HSM and auto turrets barely dent ultras and landing vikings is like trying to kill a repaired PF with lings (you may do some damage but lose all your units having no overall effect). I dont want to be adding in marauders, so maybe i need to focus fire thors better?
Im guessing you need to focus ultras down with thors asap?
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thors killed ultra really easily even with high upgrades..
just spread them and focus fire the ultra lisk..
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On March 23 2012 04:05 Squigly wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 22:57 OmegaKnetus wrote:On March 22 2012 22:48 Squigly wrote:
First off all great guide. I was looking for a good guide to mech and found it!
I know everyone is going to laugh at me for this question, as people always do. But i cant seem to deal with ultras, whats the response. Everyone i ask just says "lol ultras they suck" then proceeds to give me literally no helpful tips. I personally find a shit ton of ultras a moving into my mech line terrifying (let alone an ultra flank).
Whats the general idea, lategame wise, of dealing with ultras? Is it focus firing tanks on somethin, but not other things? Is it landing any vikings you have in from to buffer (for like 1 second before they all die to 1 ultra) etc.
Cheers In my experience, tanks are not that great against ultras. Try to get more thors, if he'S going for ultras, but even then it'S still pretty hard to deal with his tech switches. Try building up a large tank count in mid game and transition to raven/viking + mech when you have saturated your third. That'S the time you want to get some thors too. But keep up a good count of tanks to focus fire his infestors. My main issue is that air units are pretty much useless against Ultras. HSM and auto turrets barely dent ultras and landing vikings is like trying to kill a repaired PF with lings (you may do some damage but lose all your units having no overall effect). I dont want to be adding in marauders, so maybe i need to focus fire thors better? I'm guessing you need to focus ultras down with thors asap?
Replay would be nice.
1 thor > 1 ultra, even without tank support from behind. If you hug a wall or position behind obstacles, the mech advantage becomes even greater.
If the zerg can max on broodlord infestor, and then instantly re-max on fully upgraded ultras once you overproduce vikings, then they were already WAY ahead; solving your ultralisk problem has nothing to do with ultralisks at all. On offense, you need to siege up against a cliff or in a choke.
Defensively, once I am maxed with a healthy mix of tanks, thors hellions, and vikings, I dump all my extra minerals on planetary fortresses. On maps where there are not good narrow chokes to camp at, you can make your own chokes. What else are you going to dump those extra minerals on? Hellions? Marines?
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As a Zerg player, this guide is simply painful to read. ;~;
Great post though! Really comprehensive looking. <3
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On March 23 2012 09:34 U_G_L_Y wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2012 04:05 Squigly wrote:On March 22 2012 22:57 OmegaKnetus wrote:On March 22 2012 22:48 Squigly wrote:
First off all great guide. I was looking for a good guide to mech and found it!
I know everyone is going to laugh at me for this question, as people always do. But i cant seem to deal with ultras, whats the response. Everyone i ask just says "lol ultras they suck" then proceeds to give me literally no helpful tips. I personally find a shit ton of ultras a moving into my mech line terrifying (let alone an ultra flank).
Whats the general idea, lategame wise, of dealing with ultras? Is it focus firing tanks on somethin, but not other things? Is it landing any vikings you have in from to buffer (for like 1 second before they all die to 1 ultra) etc.
Cheers In my experience, tanks are not that great against ultras. Try to get more thors, if he'S going for ultras, but even then it'S still pretty hard to deal with his tech switches. Try building up a large tank count in mid game and transition to raven/viking + mech when you have saturated your third. That'S the time you want to get some thors too. But keep up a good count of tanks to focus fire his infestors. My main issue is that air units are pretty much useless against Ultras. HSM and auto turrets barely dent ultras and landing vikings is like trying to kill a repaired PF with lings (you may do some damage but lose all your units having no overall effect). I dont want to be adding in marauders, so maybe i need to focus fire thors better? I'm guessing you need to focus ultras down with thors asap? Replay would be nice. 1 thor > 1 ultra, even without tank support from behind. If you hug a wall or position behind obstacles, the mech advantage becomes even greater. If the zerg can max on broodlord infestor, and then instantly re-max on fully upgraded ultras once you overproduce vikings, then they were already WAY ahead; solving your ultralisk problem has nothing to do with ultralisks at all. On offense, you need to siege up against a cliff or in a choke. Defensively, once I am maxed with a healthy mix of tanks, thors hellions, and vikings, I dump all my extra minerals on planetary fortresses. On maps where there are not good narrow chokes to camp at, you can make your own chokes. What else are you going to dump those extra minerals on? Hellions? Marines?
I get most of this but it kinda doesnt answer my question on the micro. Im pretty sure im losing battles because i dont know what to do with the units.
Thors focused onto ultras?
Tanks focused onto infestors then roaches?
Hellions on lings?
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One more question on this then. If i have built 20 supply of vikings and he does an ultra switch, or makes no air units, what should I do with the vikings?
Mineral harass and sack them? Keep them alive and harass?
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EPT
