Welcome to my guide, I'm a Masters EU Terran who is also masters on NA. http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/1156083/1/LemonyTang/ I wanted to write a guide to mech to help out players who are struggling in TvZ with marine/tank as I love playing mech and while I don't know if you can argue it's superior, it's certainly a lot of fun to at least get a feel for.
Updated 16/05/2012 - using ravens, maxing out on sky terran, new replays Updated 12/04/2012 - new season maps, more recent replays. Apologies, I realised after finishing my update that I didn't review Korhal Compound or Cloud Kingdom. These will hopefully come in the near future but I actually have them both vetoed soooo!!
Contents
1. General Overview 2. Two opening build orders 3. The opening phase 3a. Baneling bust 3b. Aggressive roaches 3c. Roach/Ling/Bane aggression 4. The hellion invasion 5. The midgame 6. Dangers 6a. Scouting 6b. Roaches 6c. Mutalisks 6d. Brood Lord / Corruptor / Infestor 6e. Doom drops 7. The Late Game - going Sky Terran 8. Base trades 9. Engaging 10. Maps New!! 10a. Metalopolis 10b. Entombed Valley 10c. Shakuras Plateau 10d. Shattered Temple (No longer in ladder) 10e. Tal'darim Altar 10f. Antiga Shipyard 10g. Metropolis 10h. Daybreak 10i. Ohana 11. Conclusion and replays
The essential goal of a meching terran player in TvZ is first to survive against the zerg, and eventually to overwhelm them through the extreme cost efficiency and balanced composition of a mech army. The benefits of a mech army are numerous: attack power, survivability, ease of micro, ease of macro, high potential for harass in the form of hellions and extremely good defence in the form of tanks and thors, very good synergy with vikings and even battlecruisers if you really can’t force the Zerg to gg. With Mech it is often cited that a Terran player is too immobile to defend adequately from harassment on multiple fronts simultaneously, but I feel that this just isn’t the case. The incredible strength of the mech army means that even if you have to split your army into a few pieces, with forethought you can easily protect yourself from any attempt of harassment by the zerg.
I should also mention that while I haven't yet updated my guide to include discussion on ravens and banshees, I don't want to discourage you from using them. They are definitely an option you have, hunter seeker especially in the late game, and if you feel comfortable mixing them in then do. The only reason they're not yet discussed is that I haven't played enough games with them to feel happy giving you advice on how to use them or when to incorporate them.
2. Two opening build orders - one hard, one simple + Show Spoiler +
I have two standard mech build orders, this first one is much more difficult to pull off as it requires high multitasking to control the hellions, do damage with banshees and keep them alive, and macro back at home (if your armory is late you can straight up die to mutas), however it is more reliable than my second BO, which if you can deny scouting can kill zergs outright, also leaves you in an awkward spot if they go roaches.
NEW1rax FE -> Double gas -> Reactored Hellions & Banshees 10 depot 12 rax 15 orbital @100% rax ONE marine 16 CC at natural @100% orbital, 1 scv, double gas When your 17th scv is building, rally it to your natural and wall off @100 gas factory @50 gas reactor on barracks, swap over when done Build two hellions and then your depot (30/32 or so), as you're building a lot of food heavy units that build quick. @100% factory, starport. Use barracks to build a tech lab @100% Starport & tech lab - cloak and banshee Constant depots When you have the money (around 8 minutes), build a third CC. Double gas 8:30~ - two more factories and an armory. Build tech labs on both and then double thor, a standard response to banshees is often mutalisk so you have to be prepared immediately.
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Reactored Hellion --> Three fact blue flame timing -> Thors & Third after
1. 10 depot 2. 12 rax 3. 13 gas 4. 15 orbital 5. 16 depot 6. @100 rax 2 marines, send to zergs base and try to snipe 1 or 2 drones 7. @100 gas factory 8. @50 gas reactor on rax 9. 20/21 command centre 10. 21/22 (BEFORE HELLIONS) 3rd depot 11. @100% fact start 2 hellions (constant production) 12. @100 vespene gas 2nd factory 13. @100% hellions x2 more 14. @100 vespene gas 3rd factory 15. - next 50 gas is for 2x tech labs, one on barracks (swap it onto third fact) and one on 2nd fact 16. orbital on expo 17. 2nd gas 18. @150/150 blue flame 19. 40 supply depot (x2 if you want) 20. continuous hellions 21. When blue flame is done, walk into his base and win. 22. at around 8 minutes you want to add an armory and make 2 thors as soon as blue flame completes, 23. Normally I go up to 4 thors and then stop if he isn’t building mutas.
There are several scenarios during this standard build order, which I shall explore during the guide. - Baneling bust - 7 roach rush - Early warren for defence - You completely cripple the zerg and win the game simply after taking a massive economical lead - The game transitions into a LONG game, be prepared to be patient and calm
In my TvZ games, the game goes through several simple phases:
First, there is the opening stage. This is the part of the game where you want to safely establish your expansion, but must always be on the lookout for cheese. I’m going to focus on one opener for this section, though there is a variety of builds you can do. But for me, and many top terrans, reactor hellion FE is simply the best go-to build versus Zerg. Even when it seems your hellions do nothing, they stop creep spread, they force him to be wary of run ins, and often you can trade them for drones – and they transition wonderfully into my follow up. Recently, and definitely since the Queen buff, simply opening reactor hellion isn't enough. You have to sacrifice scouting for economy, but 1rax FE -> Reactored Hellion is a more useful build. It's still reasonably safe, but getting that faster orbital is more useful than getting limited info with the hellions - you'll still be just about in time to scout anything, as long as you play properly. But with a stronger economy, you'll be better prepared to defend. Four hellions just don't do enough against two queens now - you can't even kill one before you have to retreat, and more and more zergs should be doing the four queen opening on ladder so if you're going to reactor hellion expand, I really reccomend only building two to scout and then just getting out your tanks (if you're not going mech). 1rax FE -> Reactor is much better as you can commit to more hellions with your faster eco.
However, you can be threatened when you reactor FE. It isn’t a catch all build, but it is a scout all build.
In this game, vs another masters zerg, he tries to baneling bust me on Shattered Temple. You can look at the replay here if you want. http://drop.sc/101023
I want to talk about scouting at this part. While it is true that you can stop a baneling bust even without scouting with this build, I was tipped off to his plan extremely early on and was mentally prepared for the bust. Here is the moment where I knew there was something fishy going on, and most likely a baneling bust as he wouldn’t have wasted larvae on lings if it was anything else. The next thing you have to do is try to whittle down his ling count, hellions are basically the perfect counter to a baneling bust and you can defeat the entire army with just pure micro. The game goes on for a few more minutes but I continue with my build and eventually he has to gg after going completely all in. You might point out that this baneling bust was later than usual, on account of him taking his natural first. I would say yes, it is, however you have no chance of losing to a one base baneling bust either. Firstly, he has far less production so your hellions have an even easier time, secondly when you scout with your scv you can realise what he is attempting purely off the fact that he takes no expansion and has gas. This situation of course also points to roaches too, which is why you should save your two marines and build a bunker at your wall. If you’re blind, it’s important to play safe so you must forgo blue flame to get one tank out first, because without it the chances of you pushing roaches out of your natural anytime soon are slim.
Another cheese you’re likely to face is 7 roaches after expo, which is tougher to deal with but not too bad. The key thing to remember is that even if you lose some scvs, he had to cut drones for a while and mined loads of gas. In these screenshots I scout his roaches at 6.37, after I already have three factories up. In my build, there is a tech lab built onto a barracks which gets switched onto the third factory normally. However, upon scouting the roaches I change course and just build two straight marauders. This isn’t all I do. First of all, cut all hellion production as they will not save you now. Build a bunker in range of the top of the ramp, but out of range of roaches. Put your marine in the bunker, and pull scvs to defend. I lose 8 scvs, but I hold off the attack and have my tech and second command centre. I’m behind, undoubtedly, but mech is cost efficient enough that this shouldn’t be an issue as long as you maintain scouting and prepare adequately. In the resources lost tab, I’m barely behind him. This, and the investment he put into the roaches means any tech he tries to get is delayed and any third base is too. Early roaches can be trouble, but they can be held as long as you scout it and have a bunker ready. As a follow up to early roaches, you want to delay blue flame and get siege mode and siege tanks out faster in case of a follow-up bust with banelings. In this scenario too, you must still be careful of mutalisks so don’t forget to continue scouting in any way you can.
Easily the most dangerous cheese you’re likely to face is a roach/bane/ling all in, hitting at around 8.45. How can you scout this? The biggest tell is the number of units and drones he has. In this picture I want to point out three factors. First of all, he has both roaches and lings – a significant investment for just 6.55 minutes into the game. I could understand if he had maybe zerglings alone, or roaches alone, but the fact that he has speed AND roaches means he has mined more than 100 gas and I immediately need to prepare for an attack. Secondly, he has a limited drone count. There are just 13 drones at this expansion, and logically he should be on a 50/50 split so he only has 25 drones. This means larvae is being used on things which aren’t drones. Thirdly, you can kind of infer from the placement of his spine crawler that he isn’t relying on it defensively. Normally a zerg would be building more queens and pushing your hellions back, and placing the spine crawler more towards his ramp to create a wall with evo chambers. A further back crawler, with less queens, means his resources are being spent on aggressive units and not defensive units like buildings and queens. Once you’ve scouted the possibility of aggression, you should scan his main base to check and immediately get siege mode and siege tanks. Of course, there usual scenario is simply of a zerg macroing up and preparing to go mutalisks, unaware that you’re going mech. In this picture, you can see how zerg has more queens, an evo chamber to wall and a lot more drones than in the roachbaneling one (even though it’s 15 seconds later). The lack of spine crawler is more zerg being greedy than anything else, in my opinion.
Often enough with my opener I get a free win at around 9-10 minutes. This comes in the form of blue flame hellions. For this to work, several factors are necessary. Number 1 – you don’t forget gas or blue flame, and your blue flame SHOULD finish on round about 9 minutes. Number 2 – you use four hellions, and four hellions only, to deny him vision; try and use one or two marines that you built at the start of the game to patrol your base to deny overlords – if you sent both marine to the zergs base and they died, then build another after you’ve built the reactor on the barracks: denying scouting is imperative - and use your hellions to stop him running any lings past you and scouting your hellions. Not only does him scouting your base alert him to the blue flame invasion, but it also will show him that you’re going mech. The later a zerg finds out your plans, the harder it is for him to adjust. What you may notice in these screenshots is 11 roaches, and it’s true I take some damage, but ultimately I stabilise having lost much less than the zerg. Furthermore, it's not normal for a zerg to get as many as 11 roaches but it happened in this case because I forgot to protect my base, and he scouted my factories and responded with a roach warren at 8 minutes. This is an example of what happens if you allow him to scout you too early. If you let zerg scout you then you’re going to find yourself at a large disadvantage, and occasionally zerg will do something which makes you pull your hair out in frustration
After you establish yourself with 4 thors, blue flame and consider yourself safe from any aggression (don’t be afraid to delay your build in order to get siege tech and siege tanks faster than originally planned if you think he is going heavy roach or something similar), then you can transition into the mid game. After you build your first two thors you want to take your third and fourth gases at your natural, start your third command centre and build two more factories (taking you up to 5, and put tech labs on the new ones so you have four tech labbed factories). When you can afford it, you definitely want to start plus one vehicle weapons as there’s no question that upgrades are what turns a mech army from beauty to beast. Throughout this time you want to be making as many siege tanks as possible - a high tank count is essential to establish yourself safely. When your third CC is done, morph it into an orbital and float it over to your third. Once mining, take your fifth and sixth gases and smile, for you are exactly where you want to be now. Because it’s quite likely that you’re going to be spread quite widely, you have to position your tanks perfectly to defend from any aggression, using cliffs and ridges to give your army the defensive edge that it needs.
You want to defend your base by using ridges to get potshots off, and you can react quickly enough that you will take minimal damage while destroying vast portions of his army. When positioning your tanks, you want to take care to cover the minimum area of land needed to defend your base. This means extending as little as possible, while overlapping tanks as much as possible. While you don’t need to put tanks right next to each other, don’t be afraid to put more siege tanks in a location that you feel is more likely to be attacked. You also want to use buildings to protect you as much as you can, this includes depot walls, spreading out production facilities to create chokes. That kind of thing. The goal of your midgame is simple. Build more things. I consider the end of the midgame to be when you are on 7 factories total (6 w/ tech lab), double armory and have a fourth orbital ready to be floated out. This time is usually around 15-16 minutes if you are macroing to your full. You don’t need to apply any pressure, other than sending pocketfuls of hellions down flanks to try and kill some drones and keep him on his toes. There are VERY few ways you can be broken during the midgame, and each of them is only due to a lack of scouting.
Because of mech’s tendency to be slow to react, it’s important to maintain scouting throughout the game. Major changes to the game are these; A fast fourth [Hellions]: There isn’t actually that much you can do about this. Some players, like MMA, like to incorporate an early starport to get banshees. Banshees are pretty much the counter to a zerg forgoing tech and taking fast fourth/thirds because zerg cannot shoot them down before they force a cancel on the hatch. It is possible to force cancels with just hellions if you build enough – they do enough damage once their numbers are 15+ (easily achievable). In the end, if he takes a fast fourth you can afford to be greedier. You can make that fourth orbital faster, you can skip tanks in favour of upgrades and more hellions to harass. No third base [Hellions]: in 90% of situations this means he is going to attempt to bust you VERY soon. In this situation you want to play calmly and wait until he takes a third. There’s no need to over extend and try to take your third before his, because mules mean you mine more efficiently than a zerg. Prepare with turrets and tanks, and scan his tech to find out if he is going air. Once he lays down his third hatch, you should feel comfortable floating to your third as well. Two base Spire [SCAN – post hellion invasion]: This is almost a free win. With the four thors you should be building blind then you’ll be completely safe from his muta harass. Make sure to get turrets too however, as you don’t want to be leaving Thors in your base the entire game. Roach Warren and offensive roaches [SCAN and Hellions]: In this case you have to cut Thors immediately – siege tanks and siege mode are vital in holding off an early Roach bust. Some early indications of this are more than 100 gas, and especially if the zerg mines more than 200 (speed + lair + extra) then we can assume a heavy roach attack is incoming. Again in this situation, it’s highly unlikely he will be droning enough to build a third base so you can sit tight and play defensive while gaining a macro advantage. Late game – Ultras or Brood Lords? [Scans, Hellions, anything]: Because with mech, you’re limited by your gas count, mules aren’t as important in the late game as they are with marine/tank. This means you shouldn’t worry about wasting a mule via a scan ever, and you have to find out what tech he is going immediately. If you build 20 supply in Vikings and he doesn’t build a single brood lord, you are in deep trouble to an ultralisk army. Once you’ve scouted his tech you can adjust comfortably. Vikings for air, no vikings for ground (simply).
There are perhaps three units that could possibly deal a killing blow during the midgame, and those are roaches, infestors and broodlords, if he rushes to them and you aren’t prepared with enough anti-air. To be safe from roaches there are just a few important things you can do to prepare. First of all, you absolutely require an engineering bay so you have access to turrets. You should always have at least one turret at your front to protect you from burrowed roaches. Burrowed roaches in your front are the first way that you can die, the second two are overextension and the third is a roach drop when you’re severely out of position. To defend from overextension we simply don’t overextend. There’s no need to take a third base until you’re maxed out, and even on only around 100 supply, or at about 12 minutes time on most maps you have enough tanks to comfortably take a third while having ample coverage of your entire perimeter. Roach drops can be potent, but rarely will they do damage to you unless you allow them to take out your production. The simplest way of defending from this kind of economic damage is to spread out your factories. Normally I have three in my main, two in my natural and two in my third. This also has the added benefit of meaning there is a chance that reinforcements will arrive where you need them slightly quicker. Second, the earlier you know about a drop the better you’ll be at defending it. Try to scout his composition often, if he is building large numbers of roaches and not drones at around 11-12 minutes you should make a guess of some kind of large roach attack. I also like to put up turrets along the cliffs of my main. Some will argue that this won’t make much of a difference, as overlords have high survivability but the early warning is useful, and they will distract roach fire for precious seconds. Lastly, you can if you choose leave two tanks by your main orbital and they will do heavy damage on a zerg, especially if you build your buildings so they are walled in from roach fire. Even if you make mistakes and don’t prepare for a roach drop at all, as long as you set up your buildings adequately then you can decimate any roach army. In the picture that follows you can see how his army is stacked up behind my factories – admittedly this is his own choice, but most zergs will go straight for your mineral line when they drop creating this scenario. My tanks decimate his roaches without any trouble at all.
Mutas are a conundrum. Zerg gains much from going mutalisk against mech, but loses much too. The true way to use Mutas to counter mech is by tech switching in and out of them often. The optimal mech composition is basically pure tank, especially in the early game before you are maxed out, as roaches can overwhelm Thors in small numbers easily. Until you see zerg committing to infestors, ultralisks or brood lords it’s imperative that the meching player remains diligent. This means constant scouting of your opponent with scans and hellions. Scan his tech to try and spot a spire, and use hellions to gauge how much he is investing into his roach army and whether you think there is a lot of resources “missing” (not in bases, drones or roaches). When facing mutas, Terran should be even more confident turtling on three base than before. Because mutas are simply awful in a straight up fight, once Terran is maxed out then you can simply roll over the zerg like he is nothing, so long as you a) protect your economy from harassment and b) continue to harass zerg as best you can. It may sound hard to harass the zerg, but hellions are good enough even with mutas out, so long as you use routes which could be considered safer. An example of this is going around the raised platforms on Shattered Temple, and using the grass to hide your hellions attack path.
Thanks to 4Servy for suggesting using medivacs in order to move hellions around the map. It's certainly something to consider when you're facing mutalisks, however for me the earlier investment into starports doesn't make up for the added bonus of skirting even further wide. Most of the time you're able to find a hole in the zergs vision and drive your hellions through there. By all means however, try it.
Dropship with helions are actualy great vs mutas on most maps, just drop them on a smart point like that your helions dont have to take the usual routes outside your base but can use shortcuts. For example on shatterd on cross spawn you can drop them on the close air spawn and then drive straight down to the nat and to the gold.
Against a player going Muta, don’t be afraid to go up to very high Thor counts. Because his army will be so weak on the ground, even just 5 to 8 tanks will be enough to decimate any roach army if he has a reasonable number of mutalisks. Consider that a mech army beats a pure ground army by zerg without question, when he sacrifices food into harassment then he is even weaker in the final confrontation.
So this is essentially *the* composition for Zerg (each unit of this composition on its own is not a hassle at ALL for a mech army) – but do not ever be afraid of it. In IMMVP vs FXOLucky on Bel’Shir Beach, the game came down to late game vs late game and MVP lost – but not because the zerg composition was unbeatable, he simply had too many tanks. He threw away all his tanks in a base trade – the correct decision, but his mistake was in allowing the zerg to get such an army and not adjusting in time. When Zerg initially makes his transition to this army, there is your chance to strike and win the game. After my seven factories are up, usually around the 16 minute mark, I make two starports with reactor and crank out vikings with attack upgrades (3/3 should be done by this point, near enough). Do not take 16 minutes as 100% though – you must always scout his spire to see when it is morphing. Brood lords can decimate a mech army when you are caught unawares. When you engage this composition, you want as wide an arc as possible and to use sieged tanks to kill infestors from range, or else all your vikings will die. You can afford to lose tanks now, as Thors become the most important factory unit. Do not throw away your tanks however, as they are still vital if the zerg makes a roach switch. With that said, Thors are actually better versus Ultralisks. The main thing you want to do when facing this composition is exploit its immobility – a mech army is slow, but Brood Lords are even slower. You can take large chunks of tanks across the map to where his far reaching expansions are and force his brood lords out of position, then simply skirt around his air army and join your forces together, then delivering significant damage while he desperately moves his Brood lords back to the fight.
Doom drops can cause damage if you are caught off guard and don’t have anything prepared, however I want to show you how some simple forethought when you’re building your base, as well as reasonably quick reactions can turn a doom drop into a massive win for Terran. This is a game on metal, and as you can see I’m currently behind at the start of this drop, and while I definitely should point out my hellions are doing a runby into his natural mineral line, even without that I would come out ahead because of how many units he throws away for just some turrets and a barracks. In this picture I’ve drawn in the choke that I created with my buildings, and you’ll see below the effect it has on his army. There are a few steps you should take when defending a doom drop. Firstly, you need to siege in a location that is slightly out of range on the roaches, and then lift up the buildings that they are attacking. You can see my factory and orbital floating in this engagement. You want to lead with a thor as much as possible, as they draw aggression and can take a lot of hits, allowing your siege tanks more time to land their shots. You also have to be very quick to pull scvs, as keeping those alive is important. Again, you can see how I’ve pulled scvs, lifted the buildings in immediate danger and sieged up some of the units who are just out of range. I clear up the attack with no trouble.
First I have to apologise, much of this guide gives you info that is GOOD, but not info that is brand new and up to date. I don't mean that this guide is wrong - obviously I'm still happy with it, but going a sky terran style is definitely a brand of mech that I think greatly improves your chances of winning a drawn out game against the hive composition of zerg.
Many people who commented on my guide told me the value of ravens - I acknowledged it, but I thought vikings was enough, at in the middle of masters, they are, generally. But as I get higher and higher (I got owned by TLO a few weeks ago!) I've realised that they simply aren't. What I've developed recently is a style of mech that's lighter on factories, but heaver on starports. Having a flying spellcaster means that Terran air is pretty much never going to lose to zerg air, and if you're fighting ultras well... they can't shoot up.
To take a look at some replays of me playing this style, please check the replay section at the end of the guide.
A simple description of my plan is after a 1rax FE, my production is a reactor factory and a starport with a tech lab - building banshees. If you go up to five or so banshees, then the DPS of those banshees means you need far less tanks to be able to hold a zerg roach army. By using the defensive strength of banshees, you can take a third with only thors. As long as you maintain map control - use your banshees to deny the third for as long as possible, and help hellions hold watchtowers, zerg is FORCED to go mutalisks (they can go infestor if they really want - but banshees actually trade really well with infestors). If the zerg goes mutas, they have denying your third much harder because thors are so strong against any muta ball as long as you both keep building them up. Furthermore, by keeping your starport tech lab building, you may as well make use of it and get the raven ugprades, as they are vital in a long game. You want Corvid Reactor (energy upgrade) and Seeker Missile, you can get durable materials too but it's not so useful when you're going to be gas starved.
Once you take your third, you want to go up to five factories. By now, it's probably more or less 13-14 minutes in the game, and the zerg has two options to respond. He can either go for a massive roach muta attack, which you should be able to hold as long as you position your units properly - after you get out some thors, unless you scout a ton of mutas, you should build tanks immediately. You want to have sieged already researched by the time you build your first tanks too, don't forget it! The other option is that he says okay, I'll stay on three base against your banshees and tech really fast to hive, or at least the situation where he takes a fourth and then a hive. So what should you do against hive? Starports, at least four.
Usually I build three extra starports, one with a tech lab (to have two) and two with reactors. This means you'll be making ravens two at a time, and vikings four at a time. You have several things to remember once you begin your air transition - first, you want to keep SOME tanks but not tons. I often end up saccing two or three tanks, you want to have five or six, enough to threaten any infestors but not enough that you are wasting food in units that can't shoot back. Likewise with Thors, for a six supply unit, I don't rate them very highly against a zerg with a high corruptor count. They do such minimal damage to corruptors that you can't rely on a high thor count to make up for low vikings. It's much better to have 20 vikings and 5 thors, than 8 thors and 11 vikings. They aren't really efficient.
And you want a ton of ravens. I like to have 15 or so, because they can only cast one hunter seeker each (you an also use PDD if you like, but HSM is WAY cooler). They easily make up for their cost and lack of attack because one hunter seeker hitting a clumped up zerg army can DEMOLISH any number of corruptors. If you can hide your ravens too, then zerg won't realise he has to split and will just amove, stacking up his corruptors and making them die to four or so Hunter seekers. Then your massive viking count can clean up the air, and guess what cleans up the ground?
3/3 Battlecruisers. Tech to them, slowly and patiently.
A genuine concern of a meching terran is a base trade. Because of how immobile our army is, zerg can draw Terran out of position and then simply skirt our army and go for our buildings. The most important thing to do in this situation is not to panic, because base trading a Terran is a terrible decision and one usually taken out of desperation. First, we should always consider the possibility of a base trade when we move out and even when we’re building our base during the game. This means placing your buildings well, and investing in static defence where it is likely to be cost effective. Simply, any bases after your fourth should be a planetary fortress, with the exception of bases that are going TOWARDS your opponent. These should be built in your already established base, morphed into an orbital and landed at the expo when it is safe. Furthermore, missile turrets can be incredibly useful and especially vs a zerg player going mutalisk, they must be considered invaluable. A very simple but effective option is simply to leave some tanks behind. If you leave just 3-4 tanks behind you are almost assured victory in a base trade scenario as he simply won’t be cost efficient enough to have a large enough army surviving to kill the reinforcements from your factories – especially if they are spaced out, and he can’t simply camp all of them. Once you realise the zerg has gone for a base trade – by which I mean, you can see his army and it is IN your base, then you can throw caution to the wind and chase down the zergs expansions extremely aggressive. You want to siege your tanks in groups of four to five and use unsieged tanks to take out his hatcheries as quick as possible – this both limits his income and larvae, meaning that his army won’t be able to remax, which is absolutely necessary to defeat mech. Once your mech army is out of position and he is trying to flank, you are committed. You must never turn around once you’re maxed and moving out, since it simply gives zerg too much time. Because of how mobile he is, he can pull back as soon as you turn around and take no damage while doing free damage to you. Remember that with a base trade comes the end of the game – and if you play it properly, you will basically always win.
When you are moving across the map, you need to scan constantly and as soon as you touch creep you must start sieging chunks of your army at a time and moving forward slowly. You can be confident of your army decimating his, so taking the time to make sure you engage properly is 100% worthwhile. There are two situations where you’ll be engaging. Against a ground based army, or against an air based army. If you’re fighting a ground based force you want to have as concentrated army as possible, preferably in a choke or somewhere with a small area for flanking. Think of location’s like metalopolis’ two channels as the perfect example. This forces his army to stack up much more, and your splash does even more damage than allowing the zerg to get a large concave where your splash only hits one or two units. However, against an air based composition you want as big a concave as possible. This means you can fight at maximum range with your thors, and your vikings are as spread as possible to minimize fungal damage.
Of the current maps in the ladder pool, you can mech comfortably on all of them. The only one with some difficulties is Tal’Darim Altar, because of how spread out your front is, and perhaps Shakuras, where the wide area between your third and your natural can be exploited if you’re too greedy. I’m going to provide a little bit of help for your placement on all maps, minus Xel’Naga Caverns and Arid Plateau as those maps are hardly worth bothering with, sadly.
This map is pretty much my favourite to mech with. It provides a very easily achievable split map scenario and you can use cliffs to great advantage allowing you to be extra greedy with your expansions. This picture is taken 12 minutes into the game; after my hellions have done no damage, and I have I scouted him going roaches. I circled tank placement, and the fact that your third command centre should be building by now. Also note that I have the armory despite him building roaches, as it’s always important to be ready for a muta switch. This is just a few moments later, but I’ve taken my third and have added on factories 6 and 7 – perhaps a bit prematurely, I could have cut those for two siege tanks and been safer. I highlighted the contour of your third which is where you want to place your tanks, as it’s this location that they have the greatest spread. You want to have generally at least two to three tanks in this location until you take your fourth base to the side. This screenshot is later in the game, but shows you better the “ideal” defensive preparation. Three tanks, a sensor tower and turrets to stop burrowed roaches ruining your day. This siege position is pretty much why this is my favourite map for mech. The two narrow pathways mean that roaches are pretty much useless because you can position your tanks like this and have no chance of being flanked. I’ve also circled my two turret lines, and they pay for themselves in the loaded overlords that they drop. I should point out that overlord drops are extremely common on this map because of how chokey the middle of the map is - zerg has no option but to try and take another route.
This map is again good for mech. The ease of which you can take your third base means you can macro extremely quickly, and a fourth isn’t hard to hold either. The only negative is how wide open the map is, it can make moving across quite dangerous and the two side paths allow zerg fantastic opportunities to counterattack, meaning leaving tanks behind for defence is crucial. This map is very straight forward, once you’ve made a depot wall you can basically siege your tanks behind it with no problem due to the ramp making your second base almost invulnerable. Likewise, your third is easily defended by a tank line. No ground army can break you. That’s pretty much all there is to defending on that map, and like I talked about with metal, because of how easy it is to defend those three bases you should be aware that an air attack by zerg, either through drops or brood lords, is much more likely than a ground based roach army trying to overwhelm you. This advice doesn’t take the place of scouting however, as every game you play is different.
This map is in theory good for mech, it’s easy to split the map and zerg has trouble taking bases past his fourth, which means far less gas for his hive units. However it’s also very easy to be overran when you try and take your third on Shakuras, which means you have to be very careful when you move out. My screenshot is rather poor, as the circled high ground doesn’t have a tank in. This is one of the best spots to place a tank because it can’t be hit from the low ground. I have however pointed out the choke between the two bases, this is where you want to siege your first few tanks. By putting them in the choke you force the zerg to either funnel his units underneath the rock and by the xel’naga tower, or make him take a longer route. This is when you can start to feel safe – usually, because of how narrow a choke the xel’naga tower route is, zerg will go through the middle and attack you in the gap between your second and third, so you have to prepare for this by tanks. Use hellions to scout his army and be ready to move your tanks into another position if it turns out you need it. Don’t forget your turret for detection, and once you’ve got this position established you can make your fourth command centre. This is less about defence and more about the best locations to attack. Just as attacking through a choke is bad for zerg, it’s good for you as it means zerg can have far less of a concave on your tanks. Be warned that if he has brood lords and you’re in a choke however, you’re going to take more damage than normal. Once you’ve established your fourth (and sometimes fifth) base then you want to set up more in the middle so you can cover your northern or southern bases. The arrow I’ve drawn indicates the wide area of attack, which against an air based zerg is exactly what you want. You need your thors in the front, and while I haven’t shown it in this picture, it’s good to spread your vikings prematurely so that you can avoid sneaky fungals.
This map is very good for a Terran who is planning to take it late game. You have an even either gold to take than on metal, and split map is once again a likely circumstance to happen. You can see my depot wall here, which is always a fantastic thing to have against zerg to stop runbys. I want to point out that I’ve numbered the bases, you should try to take the gold as your third if you can because it’s closer to the zerg yet still within a defensive location. It’s almost a pocket gold compared to the gold base on metal. There isn’t much to say on Shattered, other than make sure your tanks cover the entrance to your gold and that you have turrets in your main to stop a doomdrop.
My least favourite map to mech on because of the difficulty in taking a third, not only does it have rocks but the large distance between it and your natural means you need quite a few tanks to be safe from aggression. Don’t forget your depot wall, and make your command centre, very standard stuff. Note also in this game the food counts – I’m able to be greedy because my hellions killed a lot of drones. If your hellions get denied you want to only take your third when you’ve got something like 7 tanks. Here we have four tanks defending our natural choke, which is adequate. You could also put the tanks on the cliff of your natural, but I find that they’re more vulnerable to being picked off by mutalisks in that location. Again the depot wall is a valuable defensive tool. You should have by now noticed the running theme of the terran defence – a wall, detection, at least one thor and tanks covering the approach. Like on Shakuras I included this to show you where you want to be engaging as a mech player – not in the wide open middle, but through any choke you can find. Tal’darim is especially nice for this because the xel’naga offers you good vision.
Famous for being the map of choice for MVP in TvZ, this map is again pretty excellent for mech. Defending your natural is easy, especially when you place tanks on the high ground. Make sure that you have your standard defensive setup. Taking the third doesn’t pose a problem if you position your tanks on the low ground so that they can hit the raised area at your third. You want to establish your bases, and then when you move out take the middle and build your fourth either underneath the middle, or in the main base/third of your neighbouring bases. You should try to get as much vision as possible as it’s very easy on this map, simply place a hellion on the other side of the smoke that’s in the middle of the map but out of range of the xel’naga, and you can be aware of any flanks the zerg tries to make.
This map is awesome. It's long, but not wide so you can't be flanked or counter attacked easily, and best of all you get five bases pretty much for free. Your natural has rocks at it that makes it much easier to defend from early attacks, and the area infront of your third defends your fourth and fifth as well. The fact that you can get five bases so easily also means that air play is strong on this map, and it's one of the maps where it's very easy to start incorporating ravens. Here is a vod of MorroW playing Leenock from NASL, it's not mech play but you can see how he uses ravens to great effectiveness late in the game. When I was taking the pictures it was in the morning and I didn't have anyone available to practice with, so the optimal set up is shown. In a real game you may need to adjust slightly for what your opponent is doing but I hope the pictures can help you out. An important aspect of opening mech on this map is preventing scouting. For this reason, if you're using my build or any build where you throw your marine away, don't. In all three TvZ's i played on the ladder yesterday, my marines spotted and overlord in time to stop him seeing my factories and my opponents weren't able to react correctly to my blue flames when I revealed them. Defending your nat is really simple as I said. Use the Thors at the front to take any damage if banelings bust your wall, and use the architecture nicely to place your tanks. You can take the third quite happily, as the natural doesn't require much babysitting at all, compared to a map like metal. Your first two rounds of tanks is more than enough to defend your third so you can take it by around 11-12 minutes, or earlier if you feel like being greedy or you did damage with some early attack. Don't forget to stop drops. Because this map is so large, and your eco spirals out of control so quickly, it's actually okay to overspend on turrets. When you take your fourth and fifth, move your army forward. A trick I like to do is to build the remainder of my depots out in the front, as they act as a wall to stop ground forces like roaches or ultras, and it doesn't matter if they die as you'll be making macro orbitals later anyway. Have fun with your insatiable economy.
This map is actually kinda hard to mech on. It's two attack paths are so far apart that zerg has quite an easy job of counter attacking you, and the fact that zerg can take 4/5 bases so easily and defend from your harass with creep+speed roaches means that you're risking facing a maxed out corruptor/bl/infestor ball. With that said, the size of it means you can get your third quickly and safely, and you can have a really strong economy in the midgame benefitting a mech army. I'm sorry to do this to you but if you bought MLG Arena then you can watch this really good game by ThorZain vs Sheth demonstrating the power of mech on this map. http://www.twitch.tv/mlg_arena/b/309664958 (I didn't buy it myself but I saw it live at a barcraft!!)
Many z will be tempted to go for mutas on this map, especially if you successfully use marine to hide your mech. This means you can get your third up very fast. Scout as best you can with your hellions and if you spot mutas then put your third up immediately (and get turrets) This is from a masters tvz, a custom game between me and a friend. Make sure you wall off your nat to prevent ling runbys in the late game, and don't kill the rocks as the more narrow choke helps you out a lot. Like Metro, it's unlikely they'll try to bust your front as long as it's walled and has some tank coverage, so you want to focus your defences at the third. In this picture you should note the turrets, because I had scouted mutas. This means the game will play out quite differently from mass roaches coming earlier, as you can be more greedy, but generally it's the same idea. You'll want to have tanks regardless, as an unscouted roach attack can really screw you over if all you have is thor and hellion and he has too much. In addition, a depot wall and I like to use my barracks here after using it to spot. (You'll want to kill the overlord on the high ground at your natural choke) Daybreak is a map that makes you very open to counter attacks. What I like to do is move out with most of my army, and simply use reinforcments (or leave tanks behind if youre maxed) to prevent a counter attack. Turrets also help tank damage so the tanks can get off more shots. If you leave 3-6 tanks here, they'll kill enough roaches that your reinforcing units can kill an army while your main force rampages the map. Again, with your fifth try to make it as safe as possible plenty of turrets, and you can even make that orbital a planetary to feel super safe. The best way is to control the area I highlighted (red crazy lines) on the map, keep vision of that and then you know when you need to move to defend your fifth. When pushing, try to be decisive and take your main army forwards to pressure him, especially if you have an army advantage, simply use small numbers of tanks to take out expansions while you cover them with your main force. And that's Daybreak. Don't expect to get it right first time as the map is really large and can be hard to get the hang of, but when you get it right it will feel really good.
This map is a bit of a conundrum. It has pros and cons for mech, making it both advantageous and disadvantageous. The positives are that it's linear, narrow, your third base is very close to your main and the fourth isn't that hard to hold, however the fifth is. It's also quite easy to deny bases and to scout on the map as it's so small. The negatives are the fact that it has such massive ground blockers in the middle, meaning it's easy for you to be flanked. There is also a ton of space at the third, meaning heavy roach attacks before your tank numbers are up can cause a lot of trouble. I played a game vs another masters Z to try and show you how to play this map.
Again, don't forget to use your marines to block scouting. When you take your natural, it's set up perfectly for tanks to defend you. Defending the third can be done early if you place your tanks where they defend each other. You should be willing to lift your orbital if too many roaches come in, as it's risky to cover the entire entrance because then your tanks will be too spread and Z can get a bigger concave. The area I circled is an example of using the terrain to defend your tanks - it creates an obstacle between the tank firing range and the tank itself. Don't forget your turrets! Even if the turrets only kill one overlord of roaches, that's actually a profit, so if they get more than one then it's even better. Use the sides of the map to scout with hellions, use the wide third against the Z by sidestepping spines to roast drones if you can. Taking the fourth is again complicated, if you move too many tanks to cover it then you risk opening up your third. My tanks are actually poorly positioned here as I was reacting to a roach attack and had to hurry, the red boxes are ideal locations. When you try to take your fifth, the best way to defend it is with high map vision. Here in the minimap you can see me on the xel'naga tower, and I'm also using a group of hellions on the left and vikings on the right to maintain vision so I can quickly react to any zerg attack.
11. Conclusion
To close I’ve uploaded just a few replays from the past week where I play mech versus Zerg. They showcase several different scenarios and are from ladder and tournaments both.
http://drop.sc/181362 - 1rax FE -> Banshees -> Thor, hellion banshee hold vs Ling Muta Baneling three base all in. http://drop.sc/181094 - The same build, 63 minute game that you should only watch to see how I tech up to my air army. Once I'm stable on the five bases of Daybreak and getting my air, zerg has no chance. Sorry for the chat. Notable for double thor drop to kill a greater spire.. so cool http://drop.sc/179662 - hellion build, my opponent does a roach opener which throws me off. Very calm 37 minute game where I hold off continued doom drops on the five bases of Metropolis to grind out a win in an important tournament game at an event. http://drop.sc/179661 - Winning a 17 minute game by delaying the third with hellions and banshees. This is how you want to play vs a Zerg who doesn't respond well to your harass http://drop.sc/179659 - Another game vs my teammate PAD where I win with Sky Terran http://drop.sc/181364 - Hellion build after 1ra FE vs a zerg on metal, I do such damage and really should've killed him earlier but didn't think. http://drop.sc/181365 - I lose after a long game where I stay in it because Thors are cost effective against ultras, and then try to make an air transition but my fumbly play bungles the game. Without getting a critical mass of ravens, you musn't engage. An interesting game if you want to see how a terran can lose if they don't get the right composition.
Daybreak (the one I used to make screenshots)(ignore chat!!) http://drop.sc/157448 Shakuras - 52 minute game. Late game compositions engaging each other over and over. http://drop.sc/157443 Metalopolis - using early aggression once you have a lead to end the game sooner (risky) http://drop.sc/157442 Metalopolis - I lose this game, despite being in a great position, because of bad micro. My army was shredded by zerglings after I moved too many tanks forward at once, on too low supply, and after wasting all my hellions so that I had nothing to stop them. http://drop.sc/157440 Antiga Shipyard - benefits of suiciding your hellions in a wide natural vs a greedy zerg is shown here. http://drop.sc/157438 Antiga Shipyard - an early third OC and suicidal hellions catapults me to a massive early lead which I nearly throw away by not having detection and roaches burrowing under my army. Use of banshees to punish expansions. Ohana - a very scrappy game. http://drop.sc/157436 Cloud Kingdom - http://drop.sc/157424 Metropolis - Blue Flame Hellions win the day. http://drop.sc/158516 Metropolis - again, blue flames get me an advantage and the map plays out simply for a win. http://drop.sc/158514 Shakuras - BFH wins (lol) http://drop.sc/158515
When you’re watching these replays, and playing mech yourself, I want you to understand that this guide is simply a guide, and rather than try to play exactly to the guide you have to absorb the information and use it to react to your own games. You’ll notice in my replays that I make mistakes and I have to adjust to the situation as best I can. No matter how much you plan, your opponent isn’t going to conform to your plan so you have to adjust, but I hope that I’ve provided you with all the information and tools you need to play mech comfortably in TvZ.
If you have any questions go ahead and ask them and I'll do my best to answer.
the first replay isnt mech, you try to bunker rush and it fails and then go marine tank. After 18 min you gg with no mech :S checked out the others seems like a good build.
On February 05 2012 00:25 bobsire wrote: the first replay isnt mech, you try to bunker rush and it fails and then go marine tank. After 18 min you gg with no mech :S checked out the others seems like a good build.
Oh crap, I thought I'd watched all of those. Thanks for pointing it out.
Edit: Thanks for all the feedback everyone. I'll try to have the guide updated by tomorrow with additional info.
1 Dropship with helions are actualy great vs mutas on most maps, just drop them on a smart point like that your helions dont have to take the usual routes outside your base but can use shortcuts. For example on shatterd on cross spawn you can drop them on the close air spawn and then drive straight down to the nat and to the gold.
Wow really useful guide. Thank you so much. I've recently started meching TvT because I felt like it but always felt unsure about TvZ mech because Mutalisks
A feature I'd like to see is a quick breakdown of the map pool and which ones are most suitable for this build and which ones are not good for it? Alternatively what caveats one should be aware of on which maps when playing this style?
Oh and that Zerg crazy wall on Metalopolis has to be one of the greatest pictures in SC2 Strategy.
Awesome guide. However I'm a bit concerned about the lategame without ghosts. I think zerg can outnumber and overpower vikings with corruptors even without infestors (yes, thors help but let's say for the sake of argument that infestors and thors balance each other out). Is the lack of ghosts because you don't have the infrastructure to build them or 0-0 upgrades or just simply you think they are not needed because vikings do the job?
edit: and if someone could specify which replay, if any, has that late game situation i'd be grateful
Hmm I really much prefer starport after 2 factories, having a raven to clear creep constantly with a banshee or hellions is imba and makes burrow a non-issue. Banshees are great in general unless he goes balls out on mutas. I have seen virtually no Zergs (who bother to scout) just die to hellions at 9 minutes but I suppose it can work if they don't wall off much at all. I would nearly always prefer an elevator play or just drop 4 though.
Perhaps you could discuss big late game air transition (still maintaining tanks to kill infestors) - viking, raven, battlecruiser? I don't think there's a stronger way to end the game with mech against Zerg
Since you seems like a solid meching player, what do you think of the idea of adding Ravens latter into the game to help Mech vs BLs ? It's not something we saw a lot, but DemusliM did it against Ret during some practice games, and MorroW did it too. Hunter seeker is actually a very good spell againsts Broodlords, and they offer a nice harassement possibility later into the game where you don't make hellions anymore.
I'm just unsure of how to transition to them. But unlike Ghost, you don't need to have a lot of structure nor a lot of upgrades to make them work.
On February 05 2012 01:50 Noocta wrote: Since you seems like a solid meching player, what do you think of the idea of adding Ravens latter into the game to help Mech vs BLs ? It's not something we saw a lot, but DemusliM did it against Ret during some practice games, and MorroW did it too. Hunter seeker is actually a very good spell againsts Broodlords, and they offer a nice harassement possibility later into the game where you don't make hellions anymore.
I'm just unsure of how to transition to them. But unlike Ghost, you don't need to have a lot of structure nor a lot of upgrades to make them work.
Ravens are a better transition than ghosts are for mech at first, later you are going to need some ghosts though to land some emps on infestors. But most likely zerg goes broods/infestor/corruptor lategame and the only counter for that with mech is adding vikings but since in larger numbers they are going to lose vs corruptor/fungal its a very good idea to add ravens foor seeker missles to deal with the lategame air ball.
On February 05 2012 02:31 Saechiis wrote: What do you guys think of using lategame dropships with Thors to snipe expo's when Zerg's going T3?
I would not do it with thors. Perhaps helions or kill mass drones.
Why not thors? Because a few gaggle of roaches will kill your thors without any thor support. Plus, you want to keep your max deathball push as strong as possible.
On February 05 2012 01:50 Noocta wrote: Since you seems like a solid meching player, what do you think of the idea of adding Ravens latter into the game to help Mech vs BLs ? It's not something we saw a lot, but DemusliM did it against Ret during some practice games, and MorroW did it too. Hunter seeker is actually a very good spell againsts Broodlords, and they offer a nice harassement possibility later into the game where you don't make hellions anymore.
I'm just unsure of how to transition to them. But unlike Ghost, you don't need to have a lot of structure nor a lot of upgrades to make them work.
Getting a raven also helps a lot against corrupter/BL, since PDD absorbs corrupter shots, allowing your vikings time to get some extra hits off.
On February 05 2012 01:50 Noocta wrote: Since you seems like a solid meching player, what do you think of the idea of adding Ravens latter into the game to help Mech vs BLs ? It's not something we saw a lot, but DemusliM did it against Ret during some practice games, and MorroW did it too. Hunter seeker is actually a very good spell againsts Broodlords, and they offer a nice harassement possibility later into the game where you don't make hellions anymore.
I'm just unsure of how to transition to them. But unlike Ghost, you don't need to have a lot of structure nor a lot of upgrades to make them work.
Getting a raven also helps a lot against corrupter/BL, since PDD absorbs corrupter shots, allowing your vikings time to get some extra hits off.
Well, i'm not talking about ONE raven. More like a fleet of 10 ravens by lategame for seeker, and PPD to protect them when launching the missiles.
really informative, i have been finding a way to use mech and these replays may help me achieve that goal. i think also one of the things to take note is that deviation will happen and also that the scouting is so key. i will definitely keep this type of build in my back pocket for me to flesh out for myself.
Although it deviates a bit from the principles of mech, I believe that it is never a bad idea to have your initial rax reactored at some point while securing your natural. I've lost so many thors and tanks before to straight muta, just because they magic boxed the thors, then went to town on the tanks. Mutas can be a huge pain in the midgame. It can never hurt to have a few extra marines. You can stick them in bunkers, bring them with your army, whatever. They're free anyways.
I was going to point out what DoctorFunk said. The only thing which discourged me from using Mech is that in very high Muta counts and magic boxed, they absolutely wreck Thors. One of the modifications I've been working on is to use Marine/Tank/Thor and a few hellions with attack upgrades only. How effective is this compared to Mech keeping in mind the mass muta count?
The only thing I'm going to complain about is calling zerg aggression at 8:45 'cheese'. From a terran, that's just taking the piss. Other than that, it's a well presented guide
High muta count shouldn't be a problem, I build a lot of turrets to asssist my Thors when needed, it prevents them from overkilling so much. As OP mentioned, mass magix box mutalisks can be hard to deal with but it's practically an all-in from Zerg. Zerg will be spending all his gas on mutalisks leaving him no significant follow-up, if he fails to do big damage he WILL die to a +2 mech army.
On February 05 2012 01:00 Mobius_1 wrote: Wow really useful guide. Thank you so much. I've recently started meching TvT because I felt like it but always felt unsure about TvZ mech because Mutalisks
A feature I'd like to see is a quick breakdown of the map pool and which ones are most suitable for this build and which ones are not good for it? Alternatively what caveats one should be aware of on which maps when playing this style?
Oh and that Zerg crazy wall on Metalopolis has to be one of the greatest pictures in SC2 Strategy.
Thanks for this awesome idea, I'm going to add this to the guide tomorrow I hope.
On February 05 2012 01:15 Jarree wrote: Awesome guide. However I'm a bit concerned about the lategame without ghosts. I think zerg can outnumber and overpower vikings with corruptors even without infestors (yes, thors help but let's say for the sake of argument that infestors and thors balance each other out). Is the lack of ghosts because you don't have the infrastructure to build them or 0-0 upgrades or just simply you think they are not needed because vikings do the job?
edit: and if someone could specify which replay, if any, has that late game situation i'd be grateful
Thanks for your feedback. Personally I don't switch into ghosts for numerous reasons, some of which you touched on. A) It can be stressful in a late game scenario and taking the time to build 3 barracks, tech labs and a ghost academy is easy to forget and actually a strange transition mentally to do. Don't forget too that ghosts are actually quite expensive, admittedly in this situation you should be taking your fourth by now but even then, if you're trading armies then investing in ghosts, who aren't that useful versus a ground switch from Zerg, can be risky. B) 0-0 upgrades are actually a big deal as you say, especially when you're not going to be facing light units so the ghosts themselves will do tiny damage outside of snipe (not that this isn't significant damage) C) when you have a big enough arc, and siege tanks positioned to hit infestors before they can fungal repeatedly, then you should actually be okay. There's rarely a situation where zerg is going to have such a large army that you can't build enough vikings and thors to combat it, simply due to the 200 supply limit. In the late game we can use mules to lower our scv count and have a larger army for it. D) I've never actually encountered a scenario where I felt I needed ghosts to beat the zerg army.
If you'd like to see a late game engagement, then this replay has one: http://drop.sc/104256 It's hard to manufacture that kind of late game scenario, but this replay is one of my longer ones and I feel it shows the strength of vikings pretty well. It also shows the importance of leaving tanks behind in a base trade. http://drop.sc/104250
On February 05 2012 01:48 Huggerz wrote: Hmm I really much prefer starport after 2 factories, having a raven to clear creep constantly with a banshee or hellions is imba and makes burrow a non-issue. Banshees are great in general unless he goes balls out on mutas. I have seen virtually no Zergs (who bother to scout) just die to hellions at 9 minutes but I suppose it can work if they don't wall off much at all. I would nearly always prefer an elevator play or just drop 4 though.
Perhaps you could discuss big late game air transition (still maintaining tanks to kill infestors) - viking, raven, battlecruiser? I don't think there's a stronger way to end the game with mech against Zerg
This is simply a variant, and I think I mentioned in my guide that my build or my style isn't catch all. If you feel comfortable getting an early starport then that's fantastic, I agree that the raven clearing creep is good. I think I mention in the build MMA's variant where he uses banshees to deny the third of zerg - definitely worth trying.
In many of my replays there is evidence of the zerg, maybe not dying, but regularly I kill over 25 drones with the hellion timing attack. It's quite amusing. I'm going to explore a late game air transition over the next week and hopefully I can come up with a section for the guide that I'm happy with and I can agree with. I definitely feel that ravens, and hunter seeker specifically, are going to be used more in the future, you can just look at some recent games by players like MorroW to see their effectiveness.
On February 05 2012 01:50 Noocta wrote: Since you seems like a solid meching player, what do you think of the idea of adding Ravens latter into the game to help Mech vs BLs ? It's not something we saw a lot, but DemusliM did it against Ret during some practice games, and MorroW did it too. Hunter seeker is actually a very good spell againsts Broodlords, and they offer a nice harassement possibility later into the game where you don't make hellions anymore.
I'm just unsure of how to transition to them. But unlike Ghost, you don't need to have a lot of structure nor a lot of upgrades to make them work.
As I mentioned above, I'm going to explore this more since it's endorsement by pros is pretty much a "do this". I should mention that they do require tech labbed ports, which is an investment as it means you need more starports than for reactor, and to make ravens really useful you need the energy upgrade and hunter seeker itself. However if you're in a static late game scenario where you are both trying to make the "perfect" composition then I would tentatively say that yes, ravens are an absolute must.
On February 05 2012 01:57 EndOfLine wrote: Love the guide.
As a zerg player, why did you add to your title: No more banelings?
You mean no more in the mid game, or because you are very good vs the baneling bust?
Thanks for your support. I meant no more banelings are banelings aren't very effective versus a mech army and I often threw games away through bad micro. It's a joke based on the fact that when playing mech you can more or less amove! (joke, joke!!)
On February 05 2012 02:31 Saechiis wrote: What do you guys think of using lategame dropships with Thors to snipe expo's when Zerg's going T3?
I would not do it with thors. Perhaps helions or kill mass drones.
Why not thors? Because a few gaggle of roaches will kill your thors without any thor support. Plus, you want to keep your max deathball push as strong as possible.
This is pretty much my answer. It's quite the risk to ferry Thors around in this situation, because the zerg is going to have corruptors to take down your medivac and then a single thor is very vulnerable to being killed without even getting 1 roach. It's much better to just go for the drones with your hellions - especially because hellions are mineral only, and you're limited by your gas.
On February 05 2012 04:59 DoctorFunk wrote: Although it deviates a bit from the principles of mech, I believe that it is never a bad idea to have your initial rax reactored at some point while securing your natural. I've lost so many thors and tanks before to straight muta, just because they magic boxed the thors, then went to town on the tanks. Mutas can be a huge pain in the midgame. It can never hurt to have a few extra marines. You can stick them in bunkers, bring them with your army, whatever. They're free anyways.
This is just a stylistic choice for you I think, I don't think this is necessary by any means. If you're using my build, or any standard build you should have some thors out by around 9.30-10 minutes. I'm going to do my best to present what I consider to be a reasonable scenario:
In order for Mutas to do significant damage vs your Thors they have to come out early, when you only have two. For this to happen he has to have skipped units almost completely and have invested his gas into a spire very quickly. This also means there's almost no chance of a baneling nest or a roach warren, and certainly no roaches already built. Therefore, as long as you hide your hellion count adequately, you're going to be able to kill 90% of his drones before he can take down your hellions. This means that even if he DOES make upwards of 7 or 8 mutas, you can afford to lose some scvs repairing your thors and come out ahead.
I hope you can agree with my answer, but by all means continue to use marines if that's what you find to work. I just don't feel that it's very useful, it's 300 minerals for four marine and a bunker, which while not that much is still something to consider.
On February 05 2012 05:03 AvengerAzrael wrote: I was going to point out what DoctorFunk said. The only thing which discourged me from using Mech is that in very high Muta counts and magic boxed, they absolutely wreck Thors. One of the modifications I've been working on is to use Marine/Tank/Thor and a few hellions with attack upgrades only. How effective is this compared to Mech keeping in mind the mass muta count?
For me, 3/3 Thors are simply so good against mutalisks that this is a non-issue.
http://drop.sc/104249 Here is a replay of me going against someone who was playing very well, he does multiple switches between air and ground and I struggle to stabilise. However, as you can see, in the end I simply roll over his bad composition. With enough Thors, especially with upgrades, I don't worry about mutas at all. As a stylistic thing, I don't like to include marines in my army. This is also because of the added cost of getting upgrades and more barracks, I'm unconvinced that it's fully worthwhile when Thors are actually good enough, especially with armour upgrades.
On February 05 2012 05:16 Umpteen wrote: The only thing I'm going to complain about is calling zerg aggression at 8:45 'cheese'. From a terran, that's just taking the piss. Other than that, it's a well presented guide
Haha, sorry, I didn't even realise I was doing that!
Thanks for all your feedback and I hope my answers satisfy. You can expect updates to the guide in the coming days.
Good guide but I find that mass roaches makes mech play impossible. Roaches cost so little gas that it is impossible to get enough tanks to counter the roaches mid-game. Try counter 1500 gas worth of roaches with 1500 gas worth of mech. It simply does not work.
Mech works great though against player that do not know that they should go pure roaches or if the Zerg is passive and let you mass up to 150-200 pop.
Just rush +2 thor attack, and mutas are no longer a problem. Also as you move out, start adding turrets around yourself - it adds detection, gets roaches stuck attacking turrets instead of tanks, and helps a ton versus muta switches, and gives you SCVs to repair your mech at the same time.
Just want to point out that upgraded thors, supported by scvs and hellions and your main army can destroy many good numbers of broodlords. you just need to have full control of your sieged tanks so when his support army is about to move in you siege and target fire. and IMMEDIATELY unsiege if his supporting army dies or retreats.
I Generally roll 10 tanks, 12 thors with he rest in hellions and viks with repair support and walk through brood armies.
As a former Terran player who made it to Masters on nothing but builds like these, I just want to note a few things that I feel weren't discussed enough in this guide.
First of all, I have no serious quarrel with this build in general. It's not a bad build, but I do believe it's inferior to a lot of other Mech builds. With that said, as someone who has been playing nothing but Mech TvZ for the past year and a half I also believe that Mech in general is extremely inferior to the standard Marine/Tank. Here's why:
Mech builds, especially ones like this, rely heavily on killing a large number of drones during the early-mid game. The fact of the matter is, if you don't kill at least a few drones you're almost guaranteed to lose the game. In order to ensure that you do in fact damage their economy you have to deny any and all scouting. If you deny the scouts, you probably win. But this creates a serious problem when all the Zerg player has to do to figure your build out in its entirety is suicide an overlord into your base. If the overlord sees two or more factories, he knows what's coming, and your hellion attack is not likely to do very much damage, thus losing you the game. The writer of this guide did mention to position marines around your base to deny this. This will kill the overlord, but rarely before it sees everything it wants to know.
I mentioned before that I thought this build was inferior to other Mech builds. I only feel this way because of the massive amount of hellions that are made compared to the 4-6 that I feel are necessary. More hellions makes you more vulnerable. Aside from that the mid-late game for this build and most other Mech builds are identical.
I also mentioned that I feel Mech in general is inferior to more standard Terran play. I would definitely recommend this build to anyone below Masters, but after a certain skill level all Zergs know how to exploit the weaknesses in Mech builds and the success rate for such builds drops significantly. Standard TvZ builds don't have this problem because they have fewer weaknesses to exploit. In other words, while Mech has a hard counter: fast roaches/black box mutas/ect. Standard is generally decent against all build orders. This applies to all races and matchups.
My final point isn't really about how to play Mech, but about Starcraft 2 in general. If you care about winning, Mech is the build for you. But if you care about improving, Mech will not help you at all. Mech is as close to an a-move and win scenario as is possible in SC2. Obviously it's not just a-move and win, but my point is it requires drastically less skill to execute and enforces bad habits that you could be improving on were you to play standard.
That's all I have to say really. All in all, great job on the guide LemonyTang.
tl;dr: Mech is a good build, but it has some very serious weaknesses that make it work less and less as you move up the ladder. Mech makes you win, but it doesn't make you a better player.
On February 05 2012 01:15 Jarree wrote: Awesome guide. However I'm a bit concerned about the lategame without ghosts. I think zerg can outnumber and overpower vikings with corruptors even without infestors (yes, thors help but let's say for the sake of argument that infestors and thors balance each other out). Is the lack of ghosts because you don't have the infrastructure to build them or 0-0 upgrades or just simply you think they are not needed because vikings do the job?
edit: and if someone could specify which replay, if any, has that late game situation i'd be grateful
Thanks for your feedback. Personally I don't switch into ghosts for numerous reasons, some of which you touched on. A) It can be stressful in a late game scenario and taking the time to build 3 barracks, tech labs and a ghost academy is easy to forget and actually a strange transition mentally to do. Don't forget too that ghosts are actually quite expensive, admittedly in this situation you should be taking your fourth by now but even then, if you're trading armies then investing in ghosts, who aren't that useful versus a ground switch from Zerg, can be risky. B) 0-0 upgrades are actually a big deal as you say, especially when you're not going to be facing light units so the ghosts themselves will do tiny damage outside of snipe (not that this isn't significant damage) C) when you have a big enough arc, and siege tanks positioned to hit infestors before they can fungal repeatedly, then you should actually be okay. There's rarely a situation where zerg is going to have such a large army that you can't build enough vikings and thors to combat it, simply due to the 200 supply limit. In the late game we can use mules to lower our scv count and have a larger army for it. D) I've never actually encountered a scenario where I felt I needed ghosts to beat the zerg army.
If you'd like to see a late game engagement, then this replay has one: http://drop.sc/104256 It's hard to manufacture that kind of late game scenario, but this replay is one of my longer ones and I feel it shows the strength of vikings pretty well.
Thanks for the answer! I personally have A) as my problem, I just thought it was because i'm not good enough . It's so much easier just adding starports and pumping vikings.
I watched your late game replay but it didn't quite answer my questions. Your opponent had zero corruptors supporting his broodlords, only a couple of infestors. Instead he just kept massing 2-1 roaches against your 2-2 tanks and it was a massacre. I have lost with mech against total air switch pure bl/corruptor, with couple of infestors as backup. It just feels really hard to beat without ghosts.
On February 05 2012 06:20 Jarree wrote: Thanks for the answer! I personally have A) as my problem, I just thought it was because i'm not good enough . It's so much easier just adding starports and pumping vikings.
I watched your late game replay but it didn't quite answer my questions. Your opponent had zero corruptors supporting his broodlords, only a couple of infestors. Instead he just kept massing 2-1 roaches against your 2-2 tanks and it was a massacre. I have lost with mech against total air switch pure bl/corruptor, with couple of infestors as backup. It just feels really hard to beat without ghosts.
Great guide anyway, well done.
Hey there, sorry, I made a mistake. I thought I included this replay: http://drop.sc/104250 - turns out I didn't. I hope this replay will be more helpful in how to play during the late game, as it spends much more time in there than the engagement in replay 1.
On February 05 2012 05:33 MockHamill wrote: Good guide but I find that mass roaches makes mech play impossible. Roaches cost so little gas that it is impossible to get enough tanks to counter the roaches mid-game. Try counter 1500 gas worth of roaches with 1500 gas worth of mech. It simply does not work.
Mech works great though against player that do not know that they should go pure roaches or if the Zerg is passive and let you mass up to 150-200 pop.
I disagree, tanks can be set up to be so cost effective that you can crush this kind of early aggression. I hope that I'm able to help you prepare your base before you're even under threat by providing some map analysis in the next few days.
On February 05 2012 05:37 Aristotle7 wrote: Regarding Mutas:
Just rush +2 thor attack, and mutas are no longer a problem. Also as you move out, start adding turrets around yourself - it adds detection, gets roaches stuck attacking turrets instead of tanks, and helps a ton versus muta switches, and gives you SCVs to repair your mech at the same time.
Don't forget SCVs are the mech, too!
This is good advice. While I personally rarely bring scvs with my push, preferring to push faster and giving the zerg less time to set up his flank, it's definitely a choice you can make. Especially when repairing a tanking thor, scvs can make a huge difference. If you've set up your macro orbitals too, then you may as well brings scvs in your push as you no longer need them in your economy.
On February 05 2012 05:41 hyptonic wrote: What do you do vs doom drops?
As user Reggae-Troll said, turret rings are very important in defending from doom drops. There are two scenarios for a doom drop - an offensive one, where he is dropping while you're in your base, or a base trade one, where he is avoiding fighting your army.
If he is doing an offensive doom drop I simply unsiege 75% of my tanks and bring them to my base, lift my buildings and kill his army without any hassle at all. Once you know where it is, it doesn't do any damage because of the natural funnel of your base. There is a section on this in the guide.
Likewise, in the situation of a desperation base trade I simply ignore it. You can mop it up with the few tanks you leave behind when you push + reinforcements, because in a base trade scenario mech is so cost efficient that you don't have to worry in this situation. Just keep a level head and take out his hatcheries, while allowing him to gain some ground in your base by setting up a defensive siege protecting your mining bases.
On February 05 2012 06:16 Otarku wrote: As a former Terran player who made it to Masters on nothing but builds like these, I just want to note a few things that I feel weren't discussed enough in this guide.
First of all, I have no serious quarrel with this build in general. It's not a bad build, but I do believe it's inferior to a lot of other Mech builds. With that said, as someone who has been playing nothing but Mech TvZ for the past year and a half I also believe that Mech in general is extremely inferior to the standard Marine/Tank. Here's why:
Mech builds, especially ones like this, rely heavily on killing a large number of drones during the early-mid game. The fact of the matter is, if you don't kill at least a few drones you're almost guaranteed to lose the game. In order to ensure that you do in fact damage their economy you have to deny any and all scouting. If you deny the scouts, you probably win. But this creates a serious problem when all the Zerg player has to do to figure your build out in its entirety is suicide an overlord into your base. If the overlord sees two or more factories, he knows what's coming, and your hellion attack is not likely to do very much damage, thus losing you the game. The writer of this guide did mention to position marines around your base to deny this. This will kill the overlord, but rarely before it sees everything it wants to know.
I mentioned before that I thought this build was inferior to other Mech builds. I only feel this way because of the massive amount of hellions that are made compared to the 4-6 that I feel are necessary. More hellions makes you more vulnerable. Aside from that the mid-late game for this build and most other Mech builds are identical.
I also mentioned that I feel Mech in general is inferior to more standard Terran play. I would definitely recommend this build to anyone below Masters, but after a certain skill level all Zergs know how to exploit the weaknesses in Mech builds and the success rate for such builds drops significantly. Standard TvZ builds don't have this problem because they have fewer weaknesses to exploit. In other words, while Mech has a hard counter: fast roaches/black box mutas/ect. Standard is generally decent against all build orders. This applies to all races and matchups.
My final point isn't really about how to play Mech, but about Starcraft 2 in general. If you care about winning, Mech is the build for you. But if you care about improving, Mech will not help you at all. Mech is as close to an a-move and win scenario as is possible in SC2. Obviously it's not just a-move and win, but my point is it requires drastically less skill to execute and enforces bad habits that you could be improving on were you to play standard.
That's all I have to say really. All in all, great job on the guide LemonyTang.
tl;dr: Mech is a good build, but it has some very serious weaknesses that make it work less and less as you move up the ladder. Mech makes you win, but it doesn't make you a better player.
Thanks for your post. I disagree that my build is inferior because of it's investment in hellions, or that it needs to kill drones to be effective. With mech, you're playing a defensive style, with cost efficient units so this means that even if you're 30 drones down, you're still ok because you aren't on a timer like you are with marine tank. There's rarely a situation where you're overwhelmed when you have the defenders advantage.
Furthermore, the only reason getting such a high hellion count would be so high is in case of a roach based attack - and this is something you should be scouting, and switching out of your plan for. I mention as much in the guide, that you shouldn't be afraid to stop building hellions and get siege tanks out quicker if you feel endangered.
I admit that I'm not a pro, but I am facing GMs and "high" masters with this build and it performs well. Mech is simply a different style of sc2, and I don't think you can say that you're not improving by practicing it. While I agree it requires less micro, I feel that the planning and decision making that goes into mech makes it just as worthwhile to master as playing marine/tank, or any other style like that.
On February 05 2012 06:16 Otarku wrote: As a former Terran player who made it to Masters on nothing but builds like these, I just want to note a few things that I feel weren't discussed enough in this guide.
First of all, I have no serious quarrel with this build in general. It's not a bad build, but I do believe it's inferior to a lot of other Mech builds. With that said, as someone who has been playing nothing but Mech TvZ for the past year and a half I also believe that Mech in general is extremely inferior to the standard Marine/Tank. Here's why:
Mech builds, especially ones like this, rely heavily on killing a large number of drones during the early-mid game. The fact of the matter is, if you don't kill at least a few drones you're almost guaranteed to lose the game. In order to ensure that you do in fact damage their economy you have to deny any and all scouting. If you deny the scouts, you probably win. But this creates a serious problem when all the Zerg player has to do to figure your build out in its entirety is suicide an overlord into your base. If the overlord sees two or more factories, he knows what's coming, and your hellion attack is not likely to do very much damage, thus losing you the game. The writer of this guide did mention to position marines around your base to deny this. This will kill the overlord, but rarely before it sees everything it wants to know.
I mentioned before that I thought this build was inferior to other Mech builds. I only feel this way because of the massive amount of hellions that are made compared to the 4-6 that I feel are necessary. More hellions makes you more vulnerable. Aside from that the mid-late game for this build and most other Mech builds are identical.
I also mentioned that I feel Mech in general is inferior to more standard Terran play. I would definitely recommend this build to anyone below Masters, but after a certain skill level all Zergs know how to exploit the weaknesses in Mech builds and the success rate for such builds drops significantly. Standard TvZ builds don't have this problem because they have fewer weaknesses to exploit. In other words, while Mech has a hard counter: fast roaches/black box mutas/ect. Standard is generally decent against all build orders. This applies to all races and matchups.
My final point isn't really about how to play Mech, but about Starcraft 2 in general. If you care about winning, Mech is the build for you. But if you care about improving, Mech will not help you at all. Mech is as close to an a-move and win scenario as is possible in SC2. Obviously it's not just a-move and win, but my point is it requires drastically less skill to execute and enforces bad habits that you could be improving on were you to play standard.
That's all I have to say really. All in all, great job on the guide LemonyTang.
tl;dr: Mech is a good build, but it has some very serious weaknesses that make it work less and less as you move up the ladder. Mech makes you win, but it doesn't make you a better player.
Really agree with this. Way too many ways to abuse mech compositions.
just curious but is this the same build that Tasteless and Artosis talk about, the Carn (spelling?) build which is Thors and Hellions. I love the guide and im not bashing on it, im just curious is all =)
As a zerg, here's my way to counter the mech build.
1. I 10 drone scout a T so I can get in before both supply are built.
2. And if I see reactor hellion opening, I get *really* fast 3-4 roaches. The point here is to help spreading creep, kill early hellions and most importantly, force the T to stay on 1 base OR force him to build marauder and bunker (while I get my third). I also upgrade +1 attacks really fast.
3. Once I've got my third roughly saturated, I build a good amount of speed roach +1/+1 to control the middle of the map, but also to force the T to play extremely defensive. Following the guide, this is somewhat where the T's got 4 thors and start to get tanks as they see I'm going mass roaches.
4. At this point, I like to make my fourth (even fifth) as it's only for the gaz, but most importantly, to attack the T. Obviously, it's not an efficient attack. BUT, you will kill a couple of thors and tanks. In that scenario, a T can't go out and attack you as they know you can instant remax in roaches/lings and dominate you in the center of the map. Plus, if the T correctly spreaded his tanks, it's risky to unsiege all of them for an attack as they the z can start to drop, etc.
5. For these reasons, while I attack/suicide the roaches, I get infestors, spire and mass sunken in the middle of the map. At this point, I need to see how the T handle the situation. If he chose to go all-in because I've attacked with roaches, I just get 200/200 of roaches (which are 2/2)/infestors/lings and sunken and crush him. If he switches to lots of tanks, I delay t3/infestors and opt for a big muta switch, but not too much. The goal here is to make him get thors again and mass turret. Sometime versus weaker players you'll win right there. Lastly, if after your roach attack he continued to mass thors, I like to get a mid-size roach army with infestors and fast tech to broodlord. Also, this would be the only time I'd consider to drop as siege tank really demolished roach drop. But if he's only massing hellion/thors, you want to drop roaches and suicide a bit everywhere to delay their "big push".
6. So, while delaying the big push, I tech to roaches/infestors/broodlord/sunken. It's important to keep the T on three bases. At this point, it's really about waiting and playing safe. I really get a lot of sunken (as I have too much $ and drones anyway). As pointed earlier, you want to keep roach in your army. Those are useful to fungal ghosts and kill them, or tank while broodlord kills everything. Vs a high count of thors/vicking, I like to switch back to mass roaches / infestors.
TL;DR: My way of dealing with mech: early roach, drone like a madman and delay his big push by attacking/suiciding roaches. If they decide to hit sooner, mass roaches/infestors. If they get mass tank, switch to muta is great (but not too much muta, just enough to force them to remake thors/turrets). And if mass thors, mid roaches army / drops while teching to brood and getting lots of sunken.
Lastly, I'd say that borrow is incredibly useful vs hellions harass as *spore*.. A couple of spores near expansion often kill hellion drop or force them to take a longer route which give you time to bring 1-2 infestor and roaches.
I'd love to know the weakness of this build. Here's what I mostly lost to: Getting early roaches to counter the mech, but somewhat losing to a marauder/hellion/scv all-in. (Bad scout from me). Really fast banshee. Fast hellion drop in main while other hellion get in expansion. And.. stupid mistakes letting mass hellion killing drones.
On February 05 2012 10:02 c_kAelle wrote: this guide is great! although i offrace as terran. can you also please write a TvT Mech guide? It's awesome watching Mvp play mech in TvT.
Mech in TvP would also be great, although from what I know this hasn't been figured out yet
Day9 did a daily on TvP mech recently, go look it up.
The gist of it is banshee opening into expand into thor/marine and transition into full mech with ghosts. I tried it a few times, it seems like you either crush or get crushed, Its not easy, chargelots, immortals and high templar comps are so powerfull vs this. EMP'ing your own units and splitting banshees against storms are pretty usefull.
Great analysis there, I really liked it. The pictures where you circled stuff in red showed me a lot (I'm a gold level player).
I always went mech against zerg until I've started doing Bomber's build to improve on my macro and finally learn the proper handling of MM(M)T(V). Very early after buying the game, I experimented with marines into hellions into thors, then cutting it to two stages, either marine thor or marine hellion. I finally decided to go hellion thors and since that point I stuck with the two units, just varying the build.
I was able to get fast BF with a decent number of hellions out of two facts (reactor + TL) but I figured the addon switching with the rax on wall-in was telling to the zerg, so I decided to do the switching behind the door. That meant a later timing but I could generally live with it. Later, and especially after the BF nerf, I decided to skip BF. So I was skipping BF and also skipping reactor or any form of getting the hellions early—at the same time. So it basically came down to having a decent number of hellions by around 7:00 or even 8:00, after which I'd switch to thor production and basically try to mass them, actually not even counting on the hellions to survive before the thors came in (judging on the situation either just after the hellion action or after making 4 or 6) with +1 armour upgrade. But I got beaten a couple of times and learnt it the hard way that you just couldn't have only thors and win much. Especially if he kept making mass zerglings anyway. But even against stuff like infestors or even roaches, it turned out having a hellion/thor composition was better than just thors.
So I had to modify the build. From that, I arrived at starting with bare factories, getting hellions from them and getting an armoury as well as tech labs and depots after leaving the base to harass the zerg. And getting upgrades. After I incorporated solid expanding into the build, I could afford getting a second armoury to start the upgrading process and finish it as soon as possible. I also kept making hellions alongside thors, which wasn't a bad idea with all the minerals over gas surplus anyway. So it was the same lean build I did in silver and bronze but refined. I also experimented with e-bays in order to incorporate turrets and PFs (PF in nat sounds noobish but saved my hide a number of times vs roaches, while on the other hand delaying my max army supply moment, so it was a tough decision and a temptation to skimp). The whole point of it was basically only having very few production structures (3-4 factories), only two different units and both using the same upgrades, said upgrades being pursued aggressively. I found out that you can actually do a lot of things with just hellions and thors, no tanks, if you learn to adapt and respond, and especially respond since there isn't much stuff to adapt in the first place. So instead of build-changing decisions, there were decisions like do I get more hellions or more thors; do I make units or upgrades as a priority when cash is low, do I get hellios or thors if minerals low; do I ever cut SCVs or not ever; at what timings or otherwise defined moments do I attack between the obvious early game harass and the 200/200; during which push do I take SCVs along for repairs and how many do I take? (Mule dropping is very helpful because you often end up with all your thors alive but badly damage and a moment of respite when your zerg is rebuilding stuff... and you're still on the same big supply, you just need to repair the HP on it). Do I leave a thor or two in base for mutas (and a ready thor or two or one just starting in factory as I move out to push)? Do I get turrets to take all thors with me? Do I take a third (delays maxing out, gets you tangled up in defence but gives you more gas and overall more econ). And so on and so forth. And learning micro, point being to minimise unnecessary movement while under fire (thors walking around), to know when to focus fire and when not to, learning to pull hellions to escape banelings but put them right back to deal with zerglings surrounding the hellions (haha! armour upgrades paying off! ). Managing the SCVs (they're plenty stupid, they basically need manual micromanagement even on auto-repair). Getting better concaves. Scan shooting from low ground. Mules. Splitting the repair SCVs/mules when opponent is not focusing or is focusing 2-3 targets. Methods for dealing with banelings (ultimately: focus if cluster, leave alone if not, pull hellions behind thors but close so they can fry broodlings, and get SCVs near if you have any, and drop mules, this is slow and against the rules of the art but actually works fine). It's all the merrier when the zerg gets a number of corruptors to counter vikings except he doesn't know you've never built a single port. And, obviously, if this does develop into a macro game (it shouldn't), then while you're being nasty to him somewhere with all your mech, you get like 3 PFs in various places. You don't mind the high SCV count because you can always use 30 repairing SCVs after the baneling hit when your hellions are (almost) all dead and thors at half life. (Not to mention that a crowd of SCVs hovering around your thors is so cool for zerglings...) And if there are any ultras, well, you can research striking canon if you really need to. This was basically the kind of simplicity I needed to succeed against zerg. Sure, I didn't have a dedicated fleet or a superb counter to broodlords or a particularly effective force against roaches (unless repaired during combat) or a way to blow banes up from afar but in exchange for lacking all those fine details, I gained a lot of solidity. And I could focus on precise details of managing these two unit types and responding appropriately to situations. TvZ ended up being my best match-up and I could generally beat platinum zergs easily while it was a close call with a gold Terran and a likely loss against gold Protoss, at least until I got better builds for those matchups.
Cool Guide, I'm a Master on SEA and I constantly switch back and forth between mech and marine/tank. Hive tech for zerg is just so annoying
I see that you sent your first two marines to scout/potentially do some damage. Seeing as you are trying to deny scouting as much as possible, Do you keep them in base if its air spawn on meta or shattered in case of an ovie sac?
On February 05 2012 10:36 iLithiuM wrote: Cool Guide, I'm a Master on SEA and I constantly switch back and forth between mech and marine/tank. Hive tech for zerg is just so annoying
I see that you sent your first two marines to scout/potentially do some damage. Seeing as you are trying to deny scouting as much as possible, Do you keep them in base if its air spawn on meta or shattered in case of an ovie sac?
from the timing you can do a fake bunker rush presure
and when he scout your base you have already reactor hellion
On February 05 2012 08:54 phzbox wrote: As a zerg, here's my way to counter the mech build.
1. I 10 drone scout a T so I can get in before both supply are built.
2. And if I see reactor hellion opening, I get *really* fast 3-4 roaches. The point here is to help spreading creep, kill early hellions and most importantly, force the T to stay on 1 base OR force him to build marauder and bunker (while I get my third). I also upgrade +1 attacks really fast.
3. Once I've got my third roughly saturated, I build a good amount of speed roach +1/+1 to control the middle of the map, but also to force the T to play extremely defensive. Following the guide, this is somewhat where the T's got 4 thors and start to get tanks as they see I'm going mass roaches.
4. At this point, I like to make my fourth (even fifth) as it's only for the gaz, but most importantly, to attack the T. Obviously, it's not an efficient attack. BUT, you will kill a couple of thors and tanks. In that scenario, a T can't go out and attack you as they know you can instant remax in roaches/lings and dominate you in the center of the map. Plus, if the T correctly spreaded his tanks, it's risky to unsiege all of them for an attack as they the z can start to drop, etc.
5. For these reasons, while I attack/suicide the roaches, I get infestors, spire and mass sunken in the middle of the map. At this point, I need to see how the T handle the situation. If he chose to go all-in because I've attacked with roaches, I just get 200/200 of roaches (which are 2/2)/infestors/lings and sunken and crush him. If he switches to lots of tanks, I delay t3/infestors and opt for a big muta switch, but not too much. The goal here is to make him get thors again and mass turret. Sometime versus weaker players you'll win right there. Lastly, if after your roach attack he continued to mass thors, I like to get a mid-size roach army with infestors and fast tech to broodlord. Also, this would be the only time I'd consider to drop as siege tank really demolished roach drop. But if he's only massing hellion/thors, you want to drop roaches and suicide a bit everywhere to delay their "big push".
6. So, while delaying the big push, I tech to roaches/infestors/broodlord/sunken. It's important to keep the T on three bases. At this point, it's really about waiting and playing safe. I really get a lot of sunken (as I have too much $ and drones anyway). As pointed earlier, you want to keep roach in your army. Those are useful to fungal ghosts and kill them, or tank while broodlord kills everything. Vs a high count of thors/vicking, I like to switch back to mass roaches / infestors.
TL;DR: My way of dealing with mech: early roach, drone like a madman and delay his big push by attacking/suiciding roaches. If they decide to hit sooner, mass roaches/infestors. If they get mass tank, switch to muta is great (but not too much muta, just enough to force them to remake thors/turrets). And if mass thors, mid roaches army / drops while teching to brood and getting lots of sunken.
Lastly, I'd say that borrow is incredibly useful vs hellions harass as *spore*.. A couple of spores near expansion often kill hellion drop or force them to take a longer route which give you time to bring 1-2 infestor and roaches.
I'd love to know the weakness of this build. Here's what I mostly lost to: Getting early roaches to counter the mech, but somewhat losing to a marauder/hellion/scv all-in. (Bad scout from me). Really fast banshee. Fast hellion drop in main while other hellion get in expansion. And.. stupid mistakes letting mass hellion killing drones.
I'm not an expert by any means, but two things stick out immediately to me:
If the terran is actively scouting and catches you starting roach production and you plan to attack when he'd normally start his thros, he can simply skip the thors and have a few tanks out and your attack will go nowhere. If you attack earlier with 3-4 roaches, unless you commit and just stream more and more and more...you're probably not going to really kill him, and it's going to set you behind, especially if he's intelligent enough to throw down a bunker and make a maurader.
The second thing to me is that, while a terran committing to mech gives you a few options, if the terran scouts and just straight abandons mech in favor of a quick seige tank hellion marine push or something of that nature (banshee, w/e), you very well might just die.
A third thing, i guess, is that if you try for a very fast fourth, the terran would have to be completely unattentive to not punish you for it, regardless of meching or doing any other strat. Gambling on someone's inattentiveness is fine I guess, but just saying, "I'll be able to do this and just get away with it" isn't realistic.
Good guide, i'm using mech now :D i watched all your replays and i still think mutas are an effective counter though. Thors are just too immobile to handle harass.
On February 05 2012 08:54 phzbox wrote: As a zerg, here's my way to counter the mech build.
1. I 10 drone scout a T so I can get in before both supply are built.
2. And if I see reactor hellion opening, I get *really* fast 3-4 roaches. The point here is to help spreading creep, kill early hellions and most importantly, force the T to stay on 1 base OR force him to build marauder and bunker (while I get my third). I also upgrade +1 attacks really fast.
3. Once I've got my third roughly saturated, I build a good amount of speed roach +1/+1 to control the middle of the map, but also to force the T to play extremely defensive. Following the guide, this is somewhat where the T's got 4 thors and start to get tanks as they see I'm going mass roaches.
4. At this point, I like to make my fourth (even fifth) as it's only for the gaz, but most importantly, to attack the T. Obviously, it's not an efficient attack. BUT, you will kill a couple of thors and tanks. In that scenario, a T can't go out and attack you as they know you can instant remax in roaches/lings and dominate you in the center of the map. Plus, if the T correctly spreaded his tanks, it's risky to unsiege all of them for an attack as they the z can start to drop, etc.
5. For these reasons, while I attack/suicide the roaches, I get infestors, spire and mass sunken in the middle of the map. At this point, I need to see how the T handle the situation. If he chose to go all-in because I've attacked with roaches, I just get 200/200 of roaches (which are 2/2)/infestors/lings and sunken and crush him. If he switches to lots of tanks, I delay t3/infestors and opt for a big muta switch, but not too much. The goal here is to make him get thors again and mass turret. Sometime versus weaker players you'll win right there. Lastly, if after your roach attack he continued to mass thors, I like to get a mid-size roach army with infestors and fast tech to broodlord. Also, this would be the only time I'd consider to drop as siege tank really demolished roach drop. But if he's only massing hellion/thors, you want to drop roaches and suicide a bit everywhere to delay their "big push".
6. So, while delaying the big push, I tech to roaches/infestors/broodlord/sunken. It's important to keep the T on three bases. At this point, it's really about waiting and playing safe. I really get a lot of sunken (as I have too much $ and drones anyway). As pointed earlier, you want to keep roach in your army. Those are useful to fungal ghosts and kill them, or tank while broodlord kills everything. Vs a high count of thors/vicking, I like to switch back to mass roaches / infestors.
TL;DR: My way of dealing with mech: early roach, drone like a madman and delay his big push by attacking/suiciding roaches. If they decide to hit sooner, mass roaches/infestors. If they get mass tank, switch to muta is great (but not too much muta, just enough to force them to remake thors/turrets). And if mass thors, mid roaches army / drops while teching to brood and getting lots of sunken.
Lastly, I'd say that borrow is incredibly useful vs hellions harass as *spore*.. A couple of spores near expansion often kill hellion drop or force them to take a longer route which give you time to bring 1-2 infestor and roaches.
I'd love to know the weakness of this build. Here's what I mostly lost to: Getting early roaches to counter the mech, but somewhat losing to a marauder/hellion/scv all-in. (Bad scout from me). Really fast banshee. Fast hellion drop in main while other hellion get in expansion. And.. stupid mistakes letting mass hellion killing drones.
I really don't like how you say counter "the mech build". It's like you're saying you're countering bio. There's an enormous amount of builds for each style. Your steps, for example don't address a reactor hellion expand into cloak banshee opener at all, in which case your entire strategy negated. Terran will have 2 bases and possibly a third before you can even start your third, and your roaches won't force marauders, but instead be defended against by just 1-2 banshees. Also, unless if you already know this, each of your steps are only possible in a very specific scenario; that is, the terran was hurt by the previous step and responded in the same way all the time.
On February 05 2012 15:00 -ReD- wrote: Good guide, i'm using mech now :D i watched all your replays and i still think mutas are an effective counter though. Thors are just too immobile to handle harass.
Unless the map is unfavorable, you should have turret rings surrounding your bases to stop zerg's mutas from getting into your side of the map without flying over a ring and losing a lot of mutas or flying over your army. You should have a few vikings later in the game anyways, to help with mutas, and perhaps even a Raven to PDD. Since Muta's dps is so low, they are easily stopped by viking/turret/repair
Great guide! I watched the replays. Your siege tank positioning and scouting are really nice. I play mech as well at the Masters level, so here's some things I've experienced.
I find that 7 factories is far too many. I usually stay at 5 (1 reactor, 4 tech lab). I didn't see you ever producing out of all 7 at once. Siege tanks and thors are really expensive. I find that I need the extra gas to put into upgrades and starport tech vs. hive (vikings against brood lords, a few banshees against ultralisks).
I also find that a good rule for unit composition is that ideally, you would want pure hellion thor. The purpose of tanks is to deal with banelings, roaches, and infestors. Thors are good against everything else. It's really horrible when you have a huge army and the zerg tech switches into a bunch of mutas and takes out your thors and everything else is left useless because it can't shoot up.
With mech, since you're so gas limited, it's not bad to put a planetary at your 3rd. It's pretty useful on maps like Tal'darim and Metalopolis where you can get roach counterattacked easily.
What usually beats me when I go mech is that my harass doesn't do much damage. Zerg protects his drones lines from hellion harass with roaches and spines. He techs quickly to hive off of 3-4 bases and then has a huge brood lord/roach army. I think that zergs have to drone pretty hard and get to hive quickly to beat mech. Every lair tech units dies to a mech army.
On February 05 2012 16:18 TerranMeApart wrote: Great guide! I watched the replays. Your siege tank positioning and scouting are really nice. I play mech as well at the Masters level, so here's some things I've experienced.
I find that 7 factories is far too many. I usually stay at 5 (1 reactor, 4 tech lab). I didn't see you ever producing out of all 7 at once. Siege tanks and thors are really expensive. I find that I need the extra gas to put into upgrades and starport tech vs. hive (vikings against brood lords, a few banshees against ultralisks).
I also find that a good rule for unit composition is that ideally, you would want pure hellion thor. The purpose of tanks is to deal with banelings, roaches, and infestors. Thors are good against everything else. It's really horrible when you have a huge army and the zerg tech switches into a bunch of mutas and takes out your thors and everything else is left useless because it can't shoot up.
With mech, since you're so gas limited, it's not bad to put a planetary at your 3rd. It's pretty useful on maps like Tal'darim and Metalopolis where you can get roach counterattacked easily.
What usually beats me when I go mech is that my harass doesn't do much damage. Zerg protects his drones lines from hellion harass with roaches and spines. He techs quickly to hive off of 3-4 bases and then has a huge brood lord/roach army. I think that zergs have to drone pretty hard and get to hive quickly to beat mech. Every lair tech units dies to a mech army.
When I stick on Thor/Hellion for too long with ZERO siege tanks, eventually the zerg makes a bunch of infestors and lings and just kills me. Maybe I'm just doing something horribly wrong though.
On February 05 2012 02:24 FluidKMC wrote: Do you use ghosts to counter t3?
When I see broodlords I just pump massive amounts of thors and some vikings. I have like 13 thors when the fight begi s and the splash damage absolutely wrecks broods. Against ultras which I rarely see i go heavy on the tanks. I don't think ghosts are reaaallly needed in mech.
Have you ever experimented with getting building armour and hi-sec auto tracking with mech?
Since you get the e-bay for turrets anyway, and won't be getting infantry upgrades. Due to the mentioned immobility of mech, i feel they could be worthwhile in base-trade scenarios and make your PF expansions harder to kill. Its probably not worth rushing these as factories and armory upgrades are important, but could you try getting them say a few minutes before you do your max food push (or maybe as you push)?
On February 05 2012 19:38 carbonaceous wrote: Hi, very nice guide. A question to OP,
Have you ever experimented with getting building armour and hi-sec auto tracking with mech?
Since you get the e-bay for turrets anyway, and won't be getting infantry upgrades. Due to the mentioned immobility of mech, i feel they could be worthwhile in base-trade scenarios and make your PF expansions harder to kill. Its probably not worth rushing these as factories and armory upgrades are important, but could you try getting them say a few minutes before you do your max food push (or maybe as you push)?
you should always get hi-sec auto tracking if your enemy goes mass muta.
Yoshi Kirishima: I understand what you mean. This is my counter to the OP mech strategy. Versus banshee or marauder/hellion all-in, I obviously need to adjust accordingly. The cool thing about being aggressive with roaches is you see really fast if your opponent is commit-ed to really fast banshee.
On February 05 2012 16:18 TerranMeApart wrote: Great guide! I watched the replays. Your siege tank positioning and scouting are really nice. I play mech as well at the Masters level, so here's some things I've experienced.
I find that 7 factories is far too many. I usually stay at 5 (1 reactor, 4 tech lab). I didn't see you ever producing out of all 7 at once. Siege tanks and thors are really expensive. I find that I need the extra gas to put into upgrades and starport tech vs. hive (vikings against brood lords, a few banshees against ultralisks).
I also find that a good rule for unit composition is that ideally, you would want pure hellion thor. The purpose of tanks is to deal with banelings, roaches, and infestors. Thors are good against everything else. It's really horrible when you have a huge army and the zerg tech switches into a bunch of mutas and takes out your thors and everything else is left useless because it can't shoot up.
With mech, since you're so gas limited, it's not bad to put a planetary at your 3rd. It's pretty useful on maps like Tal'darim and Metalopolis where you can get roach counterattacked easily.
What usually beats me when I go mech is that my harass doesn't do much damage. Zerg protects his drones lines from hellion harass with roaches and spines. He techs quickly to hive off of 3-4 bases and then has a huge brood lord/roach army. I think that zergs have to drone pretty hard and get to hive quickly to beat mech. Every lair tech units dies to a mech army.
When I stick on Thor/Hellion for too long with ZERO siege tanks, eventually the zerg makes a bunch of infestors and lings and just kills me. Maybe I'm just doing something horribly wrong though.
It's doable in terms of unit composition but may need you to lose a couple of games before you get a comfortable sense of micromanagement required at your level. I find that hellion thor is not necessarily the best when fully maxed, it's great around 150 supply or so and viable even earlier, depending on what your opponent has. In my experience pushing from time to time to fry some zerglings and generally keep zerg occupied near his base is a good idea, just being careful not to lose things. But there's no reason not to be attacking or at least operating near his base if the zerg isn't either clearly in the lead or clearly unaware of what composition you're planning to stick with. BTW, infestors are a pain in the side for armies that have too many thors relative to hellions. The biggest problem here is messing your unit AI etc., I think. I find that if I have generally more units, even weaker ones, it's easier to hold off infestors than if I have a big supply army of only thors (this was true when infestors had range 9 for parasite anyway).
Hey guys, many of your questions have been answered well by other posters, so if I don't respond to you specifically then it just means I think your answer has already been provided. I've also just added my "maps" section, I hope my suggestions on tank placement and what to do helps out a little. If there's anything more (aside from ravens!!) then go ahead and ask about it.
For me, pure Thor/Hellion is risky. It's all right to remax on that after the zerg has thrown away a lot of resources and has no bank left, but you're in too much danger of being overran by mass roaches, zerglings or even ultras so I like to keep a healthy mix constantly. Without tanks as well, infested terrans are massively stronger because you don't have any splash damage.
Phzbox, your build would do well against mine for sure, however the way I play out my games is so passive and long winded that even if zerg gets a massive economy lead, I feel just fine waiting the game out until I can even it up and establish my defences perfectly. At the end of the day, you're going to mine out quicker than I if you do that, so I'm going to have a healthy economy for longer. That's how I see it anyway, though I do not disagree that that's the one of the best ways of tackling a purely defensive terran. If you can shut down the harass, you're in a great position.
Mutas are troublesome to deal with, but with proper turret spread and if you take the game slower, making sure you don't over extend, they aren't that bad a problem.
On February 05 2012 08:54 phzbox wrote: As a zerg, here's my way to counter the mech build.
1. I 10 drone scout a T so I can get in before both supply are built.
2. And if I see reactor hellion opening, I get *really* fast 3-4 roaches. The point here is to help spreading creep, kill early hellions and most importantly, force the T to stay on 1 base OR force him to build marauder and bunker (while I get my third). I also upgrade +1 attacks really fast.
3. Once I've got my third roughly saturated, I build a good amount of speed roach +1/+1 to control the middle of the map, but also to force the T to play extremely defensive. Following the guide, this is somewhat where the T's got 4 thors and start to get tanks as they see I'm going mass roaches.
4. At this point, I like to make my fourth (even fifth) as it's only for the gaz, but most importantly, to attack the T. Obviously, it's not an efficient attack. BUT, you will kill a couple of thors and tanks. In that scenario, a T can't go out and attack you as they know you can instant remax in roaches/lings and dominate you in the center of the map. Plus, if the T correctly spreaded his tanks, it's risky to unsiege all of them for an attack as they the z can start to drop, etc.
5. For these reasons, while I attack/suicide the roaches, I get infestors, spire and mass sunken in the middle of the map. At this point, I need to see how the T handle the situation. If he chose to go all-in because I've attacked with roaches, I just get 200/200 of roaches (which are 2/2)/infestors/lings and sunken and crush him. If he switches to lots of tanks, I delay t3/infestors and opt for a big muta switch, but not too much. The goal here is to make him get thors again and mass turret. Sometime versus weaker players you'll win right there. Lastly, if after your roach attack he continued to mass thors, I like to get a mid-size roach army with infestors and fast tech to broodlord. Also, this would be the only time I'd consider to drop as siege tank really demolished roach drop. But if he's only massing hellion/thors, you want to drop roaches and suicide a bit everywhere to delay their "big push".
6. So, while delaying the big push, I tech to roaches/infestors/broodlord/sunken. It's important to keep the T on three bases. At this point, it's really about waiting and playing safe. I really get a lot of sunken (as I have too much $ and drones anyway). As pointed earlier, you want to keep roach in your army. Those are useful to fungal ghosts and kill them, or tank while broodlord kills everything. Vs a high count of thors/vicking, I like to switch back to mass roaches / infestors.
TL;DR: My way of dealing with mech: early roach, drone like a madman and delay his big push by attacking/suiciding roaches. If they decide to hit sooner, mass roaches/infestors. If they get mass tank, switch to muta is great (but not too much muta, just enough to force them to remake thors/turrets). And if mass thors, mid roaches army / drops while teching to brood and getting lots of sunken.
Lastly, I'd say that borrow is incredibly useful vs hellions harass as *spore*.. A couple of spores near expansion often kill hellion drop or force them to take a longer route which give you time to bring 1-2 infestor and roaches.
I'd love to know the weakness of this build. Here's what I mostly lost to: Getting early roaches to counter the mech, but somewhat losing to a marauder/hellion/scv all-in. (Bad scout from me). Really fast banshee. Fast hellion drop in main while other hellion get in expansion. And.. stupid mistakes letting mass hellion killing drones.
i would say some of this seems to rely on your opponent not meching properly. things like drops (which should almost never do any amount of damage to the main of a good meching player past 2 bases into the game), or your opponent not having a good balance of thors to tanks are stuff that will work against people who make mistakes in their meching(tho ill admit iv been beatin by lots of zergs cause over produce tanks over thors, not enough hellion harras etc.) everything else sounds pretty good tho with all the roach attacks in as many places at once to buy time for t3 and burrowed roaches should defiantly be used more vs mech, at least until terrans start to realize that ravens are useful.
On February 05 2012 23:22 phzbox wrote: Yoshi Kirishima: I understand what you mean. This is my counter to the OP mech strategy. Versus banshee or marauder/hellion all-in, I obviously need to adjust accordingly. The cool thing about being aggressive with roaches is you see really fast if your opponent is commit-ed to really fast banshee.
Ah, ok, you meant this particular one.
Well then, I don't think you accounted for the possibility of him building his CC in base, and bunkering at the ramp to stop your 3-4 roaches, and get cloak banshees and delay moving out so you can surprise zerg. Terran's CC won't be in his nat yet, sure, but he doesn't need his gas that fast (if he's taking his third fast instead of getting 3 fact fast) and he'll still be able to MULE his main, meanwhile he can deny your third unless you got lots of queens already to spread creep fast (depends on map ofc, some maps are harder to spread creep to). If not, then he can still use the banshees and hellions to control the map. If a player doesn't follow the guide and sticks with Thors and banshees and Hellions, he'll be safe against both mutas and roaches. I know you said following the guide, but I don't agree with the guide, and this is a weak point. If a player responds properly, you won't be able to throw zerg units at the terran, while taking your fourth and fifth, while getting spire. He'll sit behind a wall and keep repairing his units. After a couple upgrades he can move out with 20 or so SCVs and kill you once he sees you're getting either spire or taking your fourth/fifth. Again, behind a wall your zerg aggression won't do much. And for #4, I don't believe that you will be able to re-max (a big army you mean, not 200/200 right?). At that point in the game he should be able to move out with 4 thors, hellions, banshees, and just kill you.
Again I know now you are addressing the guide in general, but just wanted to point out the OP's guide has holes in it.
On February 06 2012 04:43 U_G_L_Y wrote: Why don't people (who are better than me) go gas first when doing a hellion opener?
Your expansion is delayed because of the delayed rax and therefore, slower OC.
This is such an amazing and comprehensive guide. Thankyou! there really aren't enough resources and guides for terran out there relative to other races.
With the hellion pushes, I killed around ~15 of his drones. I scouted roach warren and a lot of roaches so I was prepared for a roach bust, preparing for burrow play + more. What I didn't account for was 29 roaches dropping into my main. ;/ I don't think there was anyway for me to deal with it. I'd just like to know what you would do in that situation. I don't have the replay anymore as it was at a LAN and I was too stupid to bring a external harddrive. ;/
Very nice guide. I am a mid masters Terran on NA and have been meching against zerg for many months now. Until recently I would have said that TvZ was my best match up with probably a 65% win rate and more so when I didn't lose to early shit like baneling busts or roach rushes (which can be held but aren't the easiest thing in the world). Lately, however, as my other match ups have improved and I've been playing better and better zergs, my win rate has gone down. While I feel confident that you can mech effectively up to low masters, I want to state a few of the issues I've had recently with meching against zergs at mid masters and above. I'm not saying it isn't viable, but everyone should be aware of issues.
1. Immobility
This was stated above. Mech is extremely immobile and can be exploited with drop, burrow, and/or nydus play. While it is not impossible to handle drops, I feel these are a huge pain in the ass and make it really difficult to push out. Moreover, drop play is very difficult if not impossible to stop, it can only be handled, and that is not something to be taken lightly. Thors and turrets do not take down overlords very fast at all. Sure, you can put up a few and a sensor tower and hope that that deters them, but it is no guarantee. It is difficult to seige and unseige all the tanks, move them through ur narrow ramp choke, and get them into position, without being vulnerable somewhere else.
2. Dependence on counters
While marines are basically good against everything, Mech is strongly dependent on counters. Hellions fight zerglings, Tanks roaches and infestors, thors mutas. If you're lacking in any of the above areas you can get rolled. How many times have you had two thors get cleaned up by a few zerglings because you were low on hellions? Or lost 9 tanks because you didn't have the anti air to defend mutas? This makes the mech army inherently fragile despite it's power, because such a balance is required.
3. Lack of anti air
Mech just has crappy anti air. For the majority of the game Thors are your only recourse, and then vikings come into play. Again, as I stated above, this makes it difficult to deny overlords, or deal with mutas IF you don't have adequate Thors, esp with magic box. Above all Thors don't do much against BLs. To reiterate the above, this makes it hard to deny scouting, drop play, or simply those overlords that are pooping creep on all ur bases.
4. Need for gas and crappy mineral sink
Mech + upgrades, which are very necessary, both air and ground, is very very gas intensive. Even on three base I struggle to get all the gas I want to build my army and upgrades, and because taking too many bases too early spreads you particularly thin with Mech, it can be difficult to get all of the gas you need. Furthermore, I feel hellions are generally a crappy mineral sink (unlike marines), as they are effective early game and OK mid game, but are generally poor against most of zerg's late game compositions, so they have declining effectiveness.
5. Tough to remax and only good in large numbers.
Mech is difficult to remax with because it is so gas intensive and there are very long build times. Likewise, it is only good in large numbers. I find that if I don't do damage with my large push, even if I clean up his army, the remaining that I am left with will often get cleaned up by the counter. I.E, if I do a push and "win" with a few thors left over, I usually can't do anything with them, as they will get cleaned up by reinforcements, and are too slow to retreat, unlike, again, marines, which even in small numbers can take down a base or retreat if need be.
6. Difficulty in late game compositions.
I feel there are so many great late game compositions vs. Mech, but mainly BL, corruptor, infestor. I just don't feel that vikings are an efficient counter. One fungal and they're dead. The zerg can also mass corruptors to clean you up and then only needs a few BLs to do the rest because everything else is so terrible against them. I really feel that ghosts and/or ravens are necessary but frankly Mech doesn't have the infrastructure to make this transition easily.
7. Hard to transition
See everything above, the need for counters, late game problems, etc, and then factor in that it is very hard to transition with mech. If you over produce vikings to deal with BLs, then he goes ultras, that can screw you up. If he all of the sudden moves from roach to heavy muta, or vice versa, that can screw you up. It's tough, again, with marine tank, you're much less likely to be caught off guard, as all the infrastructure is generally in place and the build times are quicker.
8. Minimal Micro
On the one hand it is great that Mech is a bit more of an A move than marine tank and that's what makes it great at lower levels. On the other hand, there is much less micro that you can do with your mech army, and this really robs it of high level play, because frankly, terran is the micro race, imo, and it's rly proper micro that can increase the efficiency of the army.
Again, I like the guide, and frankly have been meching and continue to mech vs zerg. That said, I am learning to marine tank, because while I think mech is very powerful, I attribute it's effectiveness to two things above all.
a) For a long time zergs didn't really know how to handle it and didn't see it very often
b) the skill of my opponents was not top notch (below masters level)
You can't count on A and B to last forever, not if you're planning on getting better, and not with more and more people meching nowadays.
On February 05 2012 05:25 LemonyTang wrote: This is simply a variant, and I think I mentioned in my guide that my build or my style isn't catch all. If you feel comfortable getting an early starport then that's fantastic, I agree that the raven clearing creep is good. I think I mention in the build MMA's variant where he uses banshees to deny the third of zerg - definitely worth trying.
In many of my replays there is evidence of the zerg, maybe not dying, but regularly I kill over 25 drones with the hellion timing attack. It's quite amusing. I'm going to explore a late game air transition over the next week and hopefully I can come up with a section for the guide that I'm happy with and I can agree with. I definitely feel that ravens, and hunter seeker specifically, are going to be used more in the future, you can just look at some recent games by players like MorroW to see their effectiveness.
i've had some strange games where i transition into air almost completely. when zergs see mech, they sometimes rush to broodlords or ultras. air is great against that unless they have way more corrupters than you.
or when zerg responds by only getting roaches. basically the only real problem i see with going mass air is infestors. for people with better micro than me, maybe it's ok, but air units tend to stack up like crazy.
if they somehow don't get infestors, viking/banshee/raven is a pretty damn good late game comp against brood lords and ultras.
(quoting messed up but this is a response to the guy who said "When I stick on Thor/Hellion for too long with ZERO siege tanks, eventually the zerg makes a bunch of infestors and lings and just kills me. Maybe I'm just doing something horribly wrong though.")
yeah i used to get away with thor/hellion because people kept making any unit comp that still involves lings. thor/hellion is pretty great against ling/bane/muta.
then i would lose games because zerg literally did nothing but make roaches. not to mention i would lose games immediately to roaches after initial hellion harass.
siege tanks are pretty crucial against any zerg who realizes what is going on. if you want a simple 2 unit comp, zerg will kill you with 1. and losing to someone who makes 1 unit is pretty much the worst feeling ever.
The biggest problem I'm having is that I can't seem to deny the zerg map control with 4 hellions. When he runs out a bunch of lings, I often am a second late because I'm busy macroing, and I feel like even if I had a split second reaction and top micro, hellions cant beat infinite speedlings. Or is this just my lack of skill?
Basically how do I beat loads of lings with only 4 hellions. Especially on maps like Metalopolis, where I have to deny creep spread in two different directions.
Very nice guide mate, thanks alot! I have discovered mech lately and have a really good winrate with it against Zerg and I will definitely try this build out. I usually go with the CC first build, on 4 player maps, not on Shattered Temple.
I have some question to you tho. I see you just do the standard kinda hellion-expand opening, why not put out one banshee? I feel you very weak agianst roachpressure openings, especially when you are starting produce tanks kinda late. And with a starport down with tech-lab you can do some Ravens later which are imo really good, vision for creeptumors, turrets and point defense drone agianst mutaslisk especially when Thors isnt a counter to Zergs to know how to use Mutalisks. And the other thing is why dont you place planetary fortress on your expansions? With armorupgrade and +1 upgrade with turrets your totally safe agianst counter attacks and small harassments on your expos, which i feel is one of mechs weaknesses...
Excellent guide to meching vs Z. I would like to leave a couple of comments tho!
A 1base blingbust arrives at around 5:30.. this is right around when your first hellion(s) comes out I believe. I noticed that you show an example where you are up against a 2base blingbust... how would you cope with 1base blingbust?
In your example with early roaches you went up against a 2baser again.. how would you cope with roaches of one base? As in 7RR.
And lastly I would give you loads of credits for making a bigger guide about tank positioning, building placement and such. This isn't really only for mech, this is for biomech aswell. Even bio players can use building placement! Also loved the little trick with dropping hellions with vacs for small shortcuts.
I play mech and use ghost, at least im trying xD Putting it at the composition because, if he just mass coruptors and bl's there's no way you can stop it - also, with mech you need to harass a lot, other way you oponnent you just crush you
Hi LemonyTang, thanks for the well written guide. I enjoyed it. I do have a question about the BO however.
It seems that adding the 2nd and 3rd factory at the time listed in your BO causes me to not have enough money to constantly produce out of all my structures... there's a lot of idle time on the factories until i can start making thors. i'm just wondering if you have a good reason for adding the 3rd factory so fast, as I can't seem to find one.
I tried another build order I saw Trump do and it seems a bit more flexible and spends money better. It's roughly:
9 depot 12 rax 13 gas 15 orbital constant marines up to 5 @100 gas factory @100% factory, 1 hellion pressure with 5 marines/hellion reactor on rax tech lab on factory CC @ 5:00min 2nd factory 2nd gas @100% 2nd factory, swap onto reactor use rax to scout or make more marines @ 150/150 blue flame
This build gives you the flexibility to get an earlier tank if needed, and you get earlier blue flame. You get the 3rd factory a little later in this build and i find it spends money better.
Or, with your build order, I guess you could just make a later 3rd factory, use the rax earlier to make a tech lab for the 2nd factory.
Well, pressure with 5 marines and 2 hellions is different from pure hellions. If you were to go straight for 10 hellions, and he only had a single spine, you could out-right win or do critical damage, at least I'm finding so far in my hellion pushes even against 2/3 queen, 2 spine holds.
As always, make slight adjustments to your build if you find you can't actually spend your money, as day9 recently talked about on his daily last week (adjustments?) - flipping your build around is not something I recommend.
This was a really nice guide! I agree that mech is the future of TvZ, especially with the snipe nerf now in play. I've been trying to use mech in all matchups ever since I started playing sc2. My chief problem vs zerg is their mobility... I feel very nervous pushing out on the map trying to take position when the zerg can easily skirt large portions of his army around and hit my fourth. Particularly in the late game with ultras >< However I think with the building walls and tank placement from this guide I should be fine. The tip about position being more important than hitting the zerg's eco is very prescient. I often die when trying to push right into the zerg after winning a few engagements, they just remax too fast.
But yes, thank you for the excellent guide, it answered a lot of my questions about TvZ mech.
I noted that you wrote 'no more banelings' in the thread title, and you don't have anything on banelings in the post.
My favorite way of dealing with mech is going for +2+2+2 upgrades, and max on roach bane, with a few infestors, and going for an engagement where I flank at least, or surround, with just roach bane.
If the terran is clumped up, which the mech army often is when moving out, it seems to be quite effective. In addition, it allows you to remax quite fast on roach ling, giving you two engagements at max supply basically (assuming 5 vs 3 base, which seems to be the common scenario).
Have you ever met that style? How do you deal with it?
First off all great guide. I was looking for a good guide to mech and found it!
I know everyone is going to laugh at me for this question, as people always do. But i cant seem to deal with ultras, whats the response. Everyone i ask just says "lol ultras they suck" then proceeds to give me literally no helpful tips. I personally find a shit ton of ultras a moving into my mech line terrifying (let alone an ultra flank).
Whats the general idea, lategame wise, of dealing with ultras? Is it focus firing tanks on somethin, but not other things? Is it landing any vikings you have in from to buffer (for like 1 second before they all die to 1 ultra) etc.
On March 22 2012 22:48 Squigly wrote: First off all great guide. I was looking for a good guide to mech and found it!
I know everyone is going to laugh at me for this question, as people always do. But i cant seem to deal with ultras, whats the response. Everyone i ask just says "lol ultras they suck" then proceeds to give me literally no helpful tips. I personally find a shit ton of ultras a moving into my mech line terrifying (let alone an ultra flank).
Whats the general idea, lategame wise, of dealing with ultras? Is it focus firing tanks on somethin, but not other things? Is it landing any vikings you have in from to buffer (for like 1 second before they all die to 1 ultra) etc.
Cheers
In my experience, tanks are not that great against ultras. Try to get more thors, if he'S going for ultras, but even then it'S still pretty hard to deal with his tech switches. Try building up a large tank count in mid game and transition to raven/viking + mech when you have saturated your third. That'S the time you want to get some thors too. But keep up a good count of tanks to focus fire his infestors.
I like the guide, but I think you fail to catch the importance of banshees and Ravens in the TvZ matchup, especially when playing mech.
It comes down to style, perhaps, but I prefer a more aggressive variation of mech that includes denying expos with banshees. The basic rule I use is always ahve at least 1 raven past 14-15 min, and if he is not making mutas, then make banshees.
Hunter Seeker and PDD are both useful. And you don't have to waste scans to kill creep and check for burrowed units. And banshees just rape ground armies and give your opportunity to play more aggressively.
On March 22 2012 22:48 Squigly wrote: First off all great guide. I was looking for a good guide to mech and found it!
I know everyone is going to laugh at me for this question, as people always do. But i cant seem to deal with ultras, whats the response. Everyone i ask just says "lol ultras they suck" then proceeds to give me literally no helpful tips. I personally find a shit ton of ultras a moving into my mech line terrifying (let alone an ultra flank).
Whats the general idea, lategame wise, of dealing with ultras? Is it focus firing tanks on somethin, but not other things? Is it landing any vikings you have in from to buffer (for like 1 second before they all die to 1 ultra) etc.
Cheers
In my experience, tanks are not that great against ultras. Try to get more thors, if he'S going for ultras, but even then it'S still pretty hard to deal with his tech switches. Try building up a large tank count in mid game and transition to raven/viking + mech when you have saturated your third. That'S the time you want to get some thors too. But keep up a good count of tanks to focus fire his infestors.
My main issue is that air units are pretty much useless against Ultras. HSM and auto turrets barely dent ultras and landing vikings is like trying to kill a repaired PF with lings (you may do some damage but lose all your units having no overall effect). I dont want to be adding in marauders, so maybe i need to focus fire thors better?
Im guessing you need to focus ultras down with thors asap?
On March 22 2012 22:48 Squigly wrote: First off all great guide. I was looking for a good guide to mech and found it!
I know everyone is going to laugh at me for this question, as people always do. But i cant seem to deal with ultras, whats the response. Everyone i ask just says "lol ultras they suck" then proceeds to give me literally no helpful tips. I personally find a shit ton of ultras a moving into my mech line terrifying (let alone an ultra flank).
Whats the general idea, lategame wise, of dealing with ultras? Is it focus firing tanks on somethin, but not other things? Is it landing any vikings you have in from to buffer (for like 1 second before they all die to 1 ultra) etc.
Cheers
In my experience, tanks are not that great against ultras. Try to get more thors, if he'S going for ultras, but even then it'S still pretty hard to deal with his tech switches. Try building up a large tank count in mid game and transition to raven/viking + mech when you have saturated your third. That'S the time you want to get some thors too. But keep up a good count of tanks to focus fire his infestors.
My main issue is that air units are pretty much useless against Ultras. HSM and auto turrets barely dent ultras and landing vikings is like trying to kill a repaired PF with lings (you may do some damage but lose all your units having no overall effect). I dont want to be adding in marauders, so maybe i need to focus fire thors better?
I'm guessing you need to focus ultras down with thors asap?
Replay would be nice.
1 thor > 1 ultra, even without tank support from behind. If you hug a wall or position behind obstacles, the mech advantage becomes even greater.
If the zerg can max on broodlord infestor, and then instantly re-max on fully upgraded ultras once you overproduce vikings, then they were already WAY ahead; solving your ultralisk problem has nothing to do with ultralisks at all. On offense, you need to siege up against a cliff or in a choke.
Defensively, once I am maxed with a healthy mix of tanks, thors hellions, and vikings, I dump all my extra minerals on planetary fortresses. On maps where there are not good narrow chokes to camp at, you can make your own chokes. What else are you going to dump those extra minerals on? Hellions? Marines?
On March 22 2012 22:48 Squigly wrote: First off all great guide. I was looking for a good guide to mech and found it!
I know everyone is going to laugh at me for this question, as people always do. But i cant seem to deal with ultras, whats the response. Everyone i ask just says "lol ultras they suck" then proceeds to give me literally no helpful tips. I personally find a shit ton of ultras a moving into my mech line terrifying (let alone an ultra flank).
Whats the general idea, lategame wise, of dealing with ultras? Is it focus firing tanks on somethin, but not other things? Is it landing any vikings you have in from to buffer (for like 1 second before they all die to 1 ultra) etc.
Cheers
In my experience, tanks are not that great against ultras. Try to get more thors, if he'S going for ultras, but even then it'S still pretty hard to deal with his tech switches. Try building up a large tank count in mid game and transition to raven/viking + mech when you have saturated your third. That'S the time you want to get some thors too. But keep up a good count of tanks to focus fire his infestors.
My main issue is that air units are pretty much useless against Ultras. HSM and auto turrets barely dent ultras and landing vikings is like trying to kill a repaired PF with lings (you may do some damage but lose all your units having no overall effect). I dont want to be adding in marauders, so maybe i need to focus fire thors better?
I'm guessing you need to focus ultras down with thors asap?
Replay would be nice.
1 thor > 1 ultra, even without tank support from behind. If you hug a wall or position behind obstacles, the mech advantage becomes even greater.
If the zerg can max on broodlord infestor, and then instantly re-max on fully upgraded ultras once you overproduce vikings, then they were already WAY ahead; solving your ultralisk problem has nothing to do with ultralisks at all. On offense, you need to siege up against a cliff or in a choke.
Defensively, once I am maxed with a healthy mix of tanks, thors hellions, and vikings, I dump all my extra minerals on planetary fortresses. On maps where there are not good narrow chokes to camp at, you can make your own chokes. What else are you going to dump those extra minerals on? Hellions? Marines?
I get most of this but it kinda doesnt answer my question on the micro. Im pretty sure im losing battles because i dont know what to do with the units.
Thors focused onto ultras? Tanks focused onto infestors then roaches? Hellions on lings?
One more question on this then. If i have built 20 supply of vikings and he does an ultra switch, or makes no air units, what should I do with the vikings?
Mineral harass and sack them? Keep them alive and harass?
I usually pick the zerg base that is the east well defended and furthest away from the zerg's army and jsut land em there. check for spines and spores though.
On March 26 2012 09:42 Squigly wrote: One more question on this then. If i have built 20 supply of vikings and he does an ultra switch, or makes no air units, what should I do with the vikings?
Mineral harass and sack them? Keep them alive and harass?
yeah i'm also interested in an answer
i like to harass with smal groups maybe 3 vikings the minerals lines and send 1-3 in different locations to kill overlords and maybe force a few extra fungals with it.
But i also saw that thorzains send all his vikings to the zerg base to kill overlords in mass and the zerg got hugely supply blocked but i'am afraid that after i loss all vikings in this scenario he just build some air units and i'am f*****
On March 26 2012 09:42 Squigly wrote: One more question on this then. If i have built 20 supply of vikings and he does an ultra switch, or makes no air units, what should I do with the vikings?
Mineral harass and sack them? Keep them alive and harass?
yeah i'm also interested in an answer
i like to harass with smal groups maybe 3 vikings the minerals lines and send 1-3 in different locations to kill overlords and maybe force a few extra fungals with it.
But i also saw that thorzains send all his vikings to the zerg base to kill overlords in mass and the zerg got hugely supply blocked but i'am afraid that after i loss all vikings in this scenario he just build some air units and i'am f*****
Im kinda embarrassed to admit I hadnt even thought of killing OLs. Its such a simple use that I hadnt considered. Thatl be my main plan from now on unless someones tells me otherwise.
Hey guys, sorry that I haven't really been answering questions. I had a bit of the break from the game and wasn't in a position to answer for a while, but hopefully I can give some advice now (or later on).
Firstly, regarding Vyyl's post,
It seems that adding the 2nd and 3rd factory at the time listed in your BO causes me to not have enough money to constantly produce out of all my structures... there's a lot of idle time on the factories until i can start making thors. i'm just wondering if you have a good reason for adding the 3rd factory so fast, as I can't seem to find one.
I tried another build order I saw Trump do and it seems a bit more flexible and spends money better. It's roughly:
9 depot 12 rax 13 gas 15 orbital constant marines up to 5 @100 gas factory @100% factory, 1 hellion pressure with 5 marines/hellion reactor on rax tech lab on factory CC @ 5:00min 2nd factory 2nd gas @100% 2nd factory, swap onto reactor use rax to scout or make more marines @ 150/150 blue flame
This build gives you the flexibility to get an earlier tank if needed, and you get earlier blue flame. You get the 3rd factory a little later in this build and i find it spends money better.
Or, with your build order, I guess you could just make a later 3rd factory, use the rax earlier to make a tech lab for the 2nd factory.
I can definitely see your criticism. I understand why it feels inefficient to build the third factory so fast, but basically the reason I do it is because it's safer. If you have to pull out of the hellion timing for whatever reason, then you have a third production facility you can use to make tanks. Of course, you could argue that you could simply lift the fact off the reactor and onto a tech lab made by the rax. So it's definitely a good point.
To be honest, it also covers for bad macro (forgetting to make hellions exactly on time) and it also makes things easier (you might forget to make the third fact in time to get a second thor, causing you to lose to mutas). So it's also kind of a failsafe in this regard too.
Trump's build seems okay, I can see why you'd like it, and you can certainly use it. I'm not trying to promote my opener as the be all and end all, simply something that works for me and can often get you to the midgame either safely or with an advantage. To me the only downside of Trump's build is that it kinda overcommits to marines, building 5 is 150 minerals (more than 2) that delays some of your tech or eco.
Regarding vikings when Z tech switches from air to ground, as pointed out, a really good way to use them is to hunt overlords. I also use them to pick off mining bases, as 10-20 vikings actually does a lot of dps in ground mode. I also make sure to start getting air upgrades once it's got to this phase of the game so while they're still pretty crap vs ultras, they arent as useless vs roaches (with support). You should also be confident that Zerg probably can't afford to rebuild his army that many times, and as long as you use your army to be cost efficient you can ride the wave.
On the weekend I should have the time to go through a walkthrough for the new maps like I did for last seasons, but basically Daybreak is good for Mech as you can turtle perfectly on it, the same for Metropolis, especially as it has only two attack paths that are joined in the middle.
Ohana is a bit different, I don't think mech will be as effective on this map as taking a fourth leaves you extremely exposed, simply because the map is quite small.
I've been having alot of luck with mech + banshee switch late game. 3-4 fact and then throw down 2 starports around the time u get your 3rd up . Zergs freak out as they need anti-air , u can pick off random expansions its great
Interesting. I go mech most of the time vs zerg but my style differs in that I go with a heavy thor composition with only 5-6 tanks max. What are your thoughts on leaning more towards thors rather than tanks?
I see the advantages of going heavy thor composition as:
-Large amounts of thors and hellions can deal with brood lords surprisingly well, and even ultras. Have the hellions follow the thors so that they auto attack the broodlings, which protects the thors and allows them to fire at the broods without their AI getting screwed up. I get one raven to deal with burrowed roaches and to put up a PDD against corruptors/mutas.
-Even easier to micro then heavy tank composition. Don't have to worry about being caught out of siege mode as often.
-Sometimes zergs decide to transition into mass muta if they see that you only have a few thors and heavy tank comp. By having tons of thors, this tech switch is never an issue.
-Against mass roach I throw down a few starports and start making banshees. Banshees = high dps and good at sniping infestors.
So basically my army looks like this at 200/200: Thors, a few tanks (mainly for dealing with infestors - nerual), hellions, banshees, a raven, and 3-5 vikings.
I'm a fan of the heavy-thor composition as well. They're kind of a catch-all unit when they reach 3/3 as in that you can deal with almost unit composition as long as you have a handful of tanks and vikings to really do the damage. Mutas? Bitch please, Ultras? Lol. Roaches? Not a problem as long as you have ~8 tanks, the thors will simply tank the roaches and do a surprising amount of damage. Broodlord/Corrupter? You nee vikings and possibly ravens but their splash damage is just so good.
As a zerg player I just cant beat this. Going hive rush into brood lords leaves me so vulernable to 160-180 food pushes and I just straight up die. I also find it harder to play against a player who only gets like 5 tanks to defend and then goes mass thor with hellion support. I just cant beat mech and its impossible to stop them from reaching a deathball. Any pointers?
He gets his 3rd CC in the midgame.if you stay on 3 factory you dont have "too much of production".
For my part I like to get 3rd cc before 3rd factory ONCE im sure no all in is coming (3rd base started, lair etc.). i use this to macro a lot harder and take advantage of mech incredible defense possibilities.
I've been using my own variation of this build a lot lately (Diamond level) and it's working very well for me.
I say variation because as others have pointed out, your timing of the third factory renders it idle for a period and delays upgrades for too long. I prefer to get an armory after the second factory, and start adding additional factories as my econ kicks in.
I have a couple of questions though.
1) What time should I set as a good benchmark to max out and push? I generally max out around 18 minutes on a good day, but I feel this should be improved.
2) A game I played recently scared me a bit. It was Entombed Valley I was happily macro-ing up, about 160 supply. 2-2 upgrades. I was camped outside my 3 bases, I had approximately 12 tanks all seiged, four thors and a bunch of hellions. I saw them coming - a pack of about 12 Ultras which ran straight into my army, and killed the lot. I never stood a chance. This is the first time this has happened to me. I've never lost to Ultras using this strategy before. Is this a hard counter? He never attacked me up to this point, I did almost no hellion harass after early-mid game. The only thing that has crushed this build as hard as this was unscouted doom drops or unscouted BL rush.
Thought? Overall, I'm very grateful for this guide and I have a good winning record with it. Thanks!
On April 04 2012 02:47 Mongolbonjwa wrote: how do you deal with fast broodlord, once zerg realizes that terran is just gonna turtle and go mech?
You hit them while teching (it shouldn't be too hard to spot) or turtle with thors until you have enough vikings. I suggest the former, but that depends on how slow your build is.
On April 04 2012 02:47 Mongolbonjwa wrote: how do you deal with fast broodlord, once zerg realizes that terran is just gonna turtle and go mech?
You hit them while teching (it shouldn't be too hard to spot) or turtle with thors until you have enough vikings. I suggest the former, but that depends on how slow your build is.
Terran cannot have enough vikings and both thors and tanks in 15 minutes
Terran is forced to do some timing attack before broodlords come if zerg goes this greedy with his tech. But when and with what kind of composition?
2) A game I played recently scared me a bit. It was Entombed Valley I was happily macro-ing up, about 160 supply. 2-2 upgrades. I was camped outside my 3 bases, I had approximately 12 tanks all seiged, four thors and a bunch of hellions. I saw them coming - a pack of about 12 Ultras which ran straight into my army, and killed the lot. I never stood a chance.
This is why I like to get an early starport and make a medivac (drop straight away) viking (attack overlords) and a banshee. The banshee forces some form of antiair and does decent DPS. Scouting is so vital. Also, more thors against ultras Positioning with depot walls is key as well.
On April 04 2012 02:47 Mongolbonjwa wrote: how do you deal with fast broodlord, once zerg realizes that terran is just gonna turtle and go mech?
You hit them while teching (it shouldn't be too hard to spot) or turtle with thors until you have enough vikings. I suggest the former, but that depends on how slow your build is.
Terran cannot have enough vikings and both thors and tanks in 15 minutes
Terran is forced to do some timing attack before broodlords come if zerg goes this greedy with his tech. But when and with what kind of composition?
Reread my post and you might understand it. I never said you should have vikings at 15 min.
When you hit is early enough that broodlords aren't out. Much earlier and they haven't begun spending the money into hive, hit that timing window. Giving a time or foodcount is useless because it is completely situational.
Oh, I love this guide, it has made me feel in control of the game once more. Today I met a zerg who tried to baneing burst me early game, and refused to make anything other than ling/bane/infestor as if he was playing bio. And why not, it's a good style against lower league players who can't micro. Felt so good to crush his ling/bane/infestor army with mech! http://i.imgur.com/trOZj.jpg
However, I have 2 problems: 1. Korhal compound. I feel that the bases are spread a bit too far apart. This zerg player split his speed roaches mid game, with 1 half camping outside my base, and the other back home defending. I was afraid to push out and have my tanks destroyed. In the end, he got an econ lead and won. How do you deal with players who mass roaches and have them outside your bases?
2. Both of us spawned bottom of Antiga. I thought it would be easy to slow push across. However, the zerg kept throwing infested terrans at my tanks, and they melted to friendly fire. How do you deal with that? Ghosts?
On April 06 2012 23:59 Immutant wrote: Oh, I love this guide, it has made me feel in control of the game once more. Today I met a zerg who tried to baneing burst me early game, and refused to make anything other than ling/bane/infestor as if he was playing bio. And why not, it's a good style against lower league players who can't micro. Felt so good to crush his ling/bane/infestor army with mech! http://i.imgur.com/trOZj.jpg
However, I have 2 problems: 1. Korhal compound. I feel that the bases are spread a bit too far apart. This zerg player split his speed roaches mid game, with 1 half camping outside my base, and the other back home defending. I was afraid to push out and have my tanks destroyed. In the end, he got an econ lead and won. How do you deal with players who mass roaches and have them outside your bases?
2. Both of us spawned bottom of Antiga. I thought it would be easy to slow push across. However, the zerg kept throwing infested terrans at my tanks, and they melted to friendly fire. How do you deal with that? Ghosts?
Tank range > Infested terran throw range (as in how far away the infestors need to be to throw on your tanks)
If you have detection you should have no issue. Build turrets with your push. Will help with a mass muta switch and roach drops onto your army aswell. Raven is also a decent bet as PDD will work wonders against corrupters, and especially on antiga on those spawns, you can auto turret harass his 3rd
On April 04 2012 02:47 Mongolbonjwa wrote: how do you deal with fast broodlord, once zerg realizes that terran is just gonna turtle and go mech?
You hit them while teching (it shouldn't be too hard to spot) or turtle with thors until you have enough vikings. I suggest the former, but that depends on how slow your build is.
Terran cannot have enough vikings and both thors and tanks in 15 minutes
Terran is forced to do some timing attack before broodlords come if zerg goes this greedy with his tech. But when and with what kind of composition?
1. Right they cant. Then realize that zerg cant have both broodlords and a ton of units. Either camp and be safe or go in and win, situational though.
2. As a zerg I find heavy thors comps with just a sprinkle of hellions to be the biggest issue. Having some tanks at the start to secure your expansions are good though but when you reach that 150 supply mark going pure thor is really hard to beat.
you need 2-4 thors anyway to be safe against the first muta spawn..
and if the zerg mass muta just sit in your base and turret everything and spread your thors.. if you reach like +10 Thors with 2/2 maybe 3/3 just go fucking kill him with your thor+bf hellion army
i like those matches because if i scout this it's a mostly a freewin
@Squigly: The problem is that he advances with roaches, throw IT, then retreats. But thanks for the info about tank range vs infestor, I haven't thought about that.
Just as a general comment, I've been meching TvZ in high masters with pretty decent success. As mentioned, the hardest possible scenarios I find is broodlord infestor roach compositions. This build that the OP outlined is actually pretty effective early-mid game, but it largely relies on denying scouting the mech composition plan as long as possible.
With the current metagame, zergs will almost always blind tech from ling infestor into hive tech, with fast double upgrades Stephano style. While the OP's mech style is largely a surprise attack using BF hellions as an opening to blind counter the zerg or take them by surprise, if the mech path is scouted you HAVE to adapt. Playing a mech style requires a more reactive playstyle than when playing traditional marine/tank, and it does require a lot of understanding of the game. Oftentimes you have to think both in the zerg mindset and then react as the terran. If the zerg sees mass bf hellion, roach is most probable counter, so make tanks. When zerg sees the tank switch, they will tech to broodlords, so prepare vikings. If zerg sees vikings tanks and thors, they will try for a ling or roach switch. Point is, zerg tech switches are alot harder to deal with as a mech terran and it requires a lot more stress on decision making and game sense.
On April 08 2012 04:00 iTzSnypah wrote: Whenever I mech I find that I only win if I only get 6 or so tanks with the rest Thor Hellion. Whenever I go mostly tanks I lose to mass roach.
You loose against mass roaches with mass tanks? Don't you siege them?
I like to have 8-10 Tanks and the rest Thor+Hellion... with this number you can shut down the most roach attacks because tanks rip them apart and the zerg can not just run with infestor to use their energy (fungal, neural etc)
On April 08 2012 04:00 iTzSnypah wrote: Whenever I mech I find that I only win if I only get 6 or so tanks with the rest Thor Hellion. Whenever I go mostly tanks I lose to mass roach.
Could you give a replay where this has happened? As tanks are the units you need to counter mass roach
On April 08 2012 04:00 iTzSnypah wrote: Whenever I mech I find that I only win if I only get 6 or so tanks with the rest Thor Hellion. Whenever I go mostly tanks I lose to mass roach.
Could you give a replay where this has happened? As tanks are the units you need to counter mass roach
Unfortunately no. I started using sc2gears mid season and I deleted all old reps (had ~12mb of them). I was specifically talking about speed roach on creep however as after the first volley of siege fire my tanks get surrounded. Wave killing (as each volley fires) I found to not be as good as constant dps (thors fast attack rate).
On April 08 2012 04:00 iTzSnypah wrote: Whenever I mech I find that I only win if I only get 6 or so tanks with the rest Thor Hellion. Whenever I go mostly tanks I lose to mass roach.
Could you give a replay where this has happened? As tanks are the units you need to counter mass roach
Unfortunately no. I started using sc2gears mid season and I deleted all old reps (had ~12mb of them). I was specifically talking about speed roach on creep however as after the first volley of siege fire my tanks get surrounded. Wave killing (as each volley fires) I found to not be as good as constant dps (thors fast attack rate).
Hmm, try and get a game where you think you lost to mass roaches because of too many tanks and not enough thors. In theory (and my experience) 8-10 tanks shred roaches and they lose sooo many before they even get to the tanks that the thors clean up the rest fine.
I expect that you are getting caught unsieged (or not sieged quick enough). You need to be sieged and able to hit the roaches as soon as they enter tank range. Starting to siege then is too late.
I feel like if i make it to late game, i can win fairly easily. I go a mainly thor hellion viking army, with banshees to help with ultras and roaches, and raves to aid with corruptors. I get quite a few tanks also, as i feel they are essential for defending against any mass roach play with infestors in the midgame, but once they die i hardly ever rebuild them. Keep in mind i also go for double armory, and once my mech ups finish, i immediately race for 3-3 air.
How do you attack an army when you have a seige tank heavy composition? Defending is easy enough, you just sit there, let the hellions, if available, absorb damage, and the tanks turn the rochies to a fine red paste. But in the opposite scenario.
I find nothing more terrifying than when the zerg army just holds position in the middle of the map, or inches back if you get too close.
Extremely good guide! Took me a while to adjust from my std bio play but I must say it is much easier to kill zerg much earilier on if you don't reveal the fact that you are going mech. For all you people in the lower leagues, not revealing more than 4 hellions before you push is vital if you want to damage zerg. Another problem that I saw my friends facing was that they didnt get Thors out in time. this is really important to place that armory at the 8minute mark for the upgrades and thors. If you are in a base trade situation with zerg you should go for it, just lift your buildings and it gg for them
On April 09 2012 20:38 BobTheSCV wrote: How do you attack an army when you have a seige tank heavy composition? Defending is easy enough, you just sit there, let the hellions, if available, absorb damage, and the tanks turn the rochies to a fine red paste. But in the opposite scenario.
I find nothing more terrifying than when the zerg army just holds position in the middle of the map, or inches back if you get too close.
Lategame my general plan is 2 hellion drops at his main and his 3rd/4th. This scoutes his tech and moves his army out of position. Then move up and siege, clear creep, but a couple turrets and you have yourself a new siege line. If its a big map with a lot of creep spread, you may need to do this a couple times.
I tend to paly fast and loos with hellions once midgame hits as they are almost free
I've printed out this as I've always had problems with Zerg, mech seems like a good way to go. But I always feel like I'm losing when I leave the Zerg alone for too long.
What are people's thoughts on going for banshee's either off a reactor hellion expand or 1 rax FE into double gas? How do you think it will hold up against the different all ins? I have tried it a few times and the ability to keep the zerg contained and harass with cloak and even follow up with a hellion drop and a viking to pick off overlords.
Hey guys, I updated the guide with some info on the new ladder maps and more recent replays. Thanks for all your support and interest, I've tried to respond to PMs I sent and apologies for questions in the thread I missed. I'm sorry too that I forgot to make a map post for Korhal Compound or Cloud Kingdom, hopefully I can get those done soon!
On April 09 2012 20:38 BobTheSCV wrote: How do you attack an army when you have a seige tank heavy composition? Defending is easy enough, you just sit there, let the hellions, if available, absorb damage, and the tanks turn the rochies to a fine red paste. But in the opposite scenario.
I find nothing more terrifying than when the zerg army just holds position in the middle of the map, or inches back if you get too close.
If you're siege tank heavy you have to leapfrog tanks forward, being patient. Make sure to use scans to keep constant tabs on his roaches, and jump forward your back three tanks or so at a time. Even if a few tanks are unsieged when the zerg engages, even eight sieged tanks will shred roach armies like nothing else.
On April 08 2012 04:15 RaE21 wrote: Just as a general comment, I've been meching TvZ in high masters with pretty decent success. As mentioned, the hardest possible scenarios I find is broodlord infestor roach compositions. This build that the OP outlined is actually pretty effective early-mid game, but it largely relies on denying scouting the mech composition plan as long as possible.
With the current metagame, zergs will almost always blind tech from ling infestor into hive tech, with fast double upgrades Stephano style. While the OP's mech style is largely a surprise attack using BF hellions as an opening to blind counter the zerg or take them by surprise, if the mech path is scouted you HAVE to adapt. Playing a mech style requires a more reactive playstyle than when playing traditional marine/tank, and it does require a lot of understanding of the game. Oftentimes you have to think both in the zerg mindset and then react as the terran. If the zerg sees mass bf hellion, roach is most probable counter, so make tanks. When zerg sees the tank switch, they will tech to broodlords, so prepare vikings. If zerg sees vikings tanks and thors, they will try for a ling or roach switch. Point is, zerg tech switches are alot harder to deal with as a mech terran and it requires a lot more stress on decision making and game sense.
I agree with this post a lot pretty much. There was a period between Boxer revealing hellions to Idra at MLG and Stephano winning IPL3 where zergs would open roaches most games because that was the meta, now they go double evo and try to play greedy to get infestors out. If you hide your mech and only show a few hellions you can toast them very simply.
Tech switches in the late game are one of the hardest things to deal with, but it's also the main strength of zerg so you can't begrudge them it. The most important thing in my opinion is to always keep a decent hellion count, as without those then your precious expensive mech army will get destroyed by 3/3 lings. Thanks for all your posts in the thread Squigly!
On April 11 2012 09:09 MetalGear wrote: What are people's thoughts on going for banshee's either off a reactor hellion expand or 1 rax FE into double gas? How do you think it will hold up against the different all ins? I have tried it a few times and the ability to keep the zerg contained and harass with cloak and even follow up with a hellion drop and a viking to pick off overlords.
Banshees are definitely a useful unit. It's all up to your style how you want to play, you can use them if you want to. Banshees are pretty good at clearing up an all in but not so great at defending on their own - so they're risky in that respect, but because of how good hellions are at scouting a zerg you can be prepared for an all in so it isn't actually that big a danger in my opinion.
Thanks a lot for your detailed guide. I always used to play mech in TvZ but recently I found that it gets harder and harder for me to win this way (I'm currently mid diamond). My problem is that I basically let the zerg get away with most things in the beginning of the game since I go for a 1rax expand, which renders me unable to apply any pressure. In the last couple of weeks I tried to do 2 base timings with a lot of marines, siege tanks and banshees to to kill the zergs third while taking a third of my own but that is not always successful. And after that it's an uphill battle most of the time. I remembered I bookmarked your guide somtime in the past but never found time to really read it. But now, in search for a better opening to mech in TvZ I remembered your guide and read it. Now from what I can tell it's a very solid buil but I haven't tried it yet. I'm still hesitant because of the new patch. In order for your stategy to work your Hellion pressure has to be effective and you should deny scouting as long as possible. Since the queens are stronger now and overloards are faster, do you think your strategy will be less viable? If zergs build more queens it might be harder to deny creepspread or do economical damage. And overlord scouting also became a lot easier. I'd like to hear your thoughts on that very much.
Question: In your game on Ohana vs ChaboJ in the most recent replay pack (the same game you used for the map analysis), you start siege tech and start building tanks at around the 9:10 minute mark. Why did you do this instead of making thors? Was there something you saw that triggered this?
On May 16 2012 17:45 PaleRider09 wrote: Question: In your game on Ohana vs ChaboJ in the most recent replay pack (the same game you used for the map analysis), you start siege tech and start building tanks at around the 9:10 minute mark. Why did you do this instead of making thors? Was there something you saw that triggered this?
Thanks!
Hey. I just rewatched the replay and the reason I went for tanks instead of thors is down to two main things. First, I've killed 22 drones by now, so any muta switch he does will a) be later (plus he spent gas on roaches and an evo), and b) weaker as his economy is nowhere near optimal. Secondly, he's making roaches, and I've already tipped my hand with blue flame hellions so he knows I'm most likely going mech - this means he's pretty likely to keep making roaches. It's important to make sure you do keep scouting and try and sniff out a muta switch incase one does happen, but in this case I was more concerned with not dying to roaches so I built tanks.
On May 15 2012 05:03 CosmoK wrote: Thanks a lot for your detailed guide. I always used to play mech in TvZ but recently I found that it gets harder and harder for me to win this way (I'm currently mid diamond). My problem is that I basically let the zerg get away with most things in the beginning of the game since I go for a 1rax expand, which renders me unable to apply any pressure. In the last couple of weeks I tried to do 2 base timings with a lot of marines, siege tanks and banshees to to kill the zergs third while taking a third of my own but that is not always successful. And after that it's an uphill battle most of the time. I remembered I bookmarked your guide somtime in the past but never found time to really read it. But now, in search for a better opening to mech in TvZ I remembered your guide and read it. Now from what I can tell it's a very solid buil but I haven't tried it yet. I'm still hesitant because of the new patch. In order for your stategy to work your Hellion pressure has to be effective and you should deny scouting as long as possible. Since the queens are stronger now and overloards are faster, do you think your strategy will be less viable? If zergs build more queens it might be harder to deny creepspread or do economical damage. And overlord scouting also became a lot easier. I'd like to hear your thoughts on that very much.
Kind regards
Thanks for your feedback!
In response to your question about the new patch, I definitely feel that the opening in my OP is weaker now than it was a month ago. There has also been a metagame shift imho, similar to post-Anaheim, many zergs are more comfortable going roaches in the early game. Maybe there's been an increase in mech users, or it's simply the popularity of the roach baneling ling all in at the moment, but I've moved away from a pure BFH opening.
The build I do now is 1rax FE into double gas, then reactored hellions and cloak banshees. I get my third CC before any additional buildings, using my map control to hide it. I go up to 4 gas, and then add two more fact and an armory - but I keep building banshees, going up to five or six. I'm going to update the OP today because I've developed my play a lot more in the past fortnight and the guide no longer reflects what I feel is the optimal way to play. Hopefully by the time you read this you'll be able to see the changes I've made. Specifically, I think sky terran, with ravens and BCs, is now the ultimate way to win a Mech style vs Zerg.
Interesting. I only watched three of your new replays so far, in two of which you won pretty convincingly in the midgame (the ling, bling, muta game on antiga and the game on daybreak in which you were able to delay the opponents third for quite a while) and the one game that lasted 63 minutes. Now in the end your win in the latter game was pretty easy because you fought him without his ultralisks. Do you think you would've won the engagement with them being still there? I feel that your ground army would've been destroyed much more easily and that your air army wouldn't have been able to destroy the rest of his army.
Besides, what do you think are the major weaknesses of your new build? Can you hold an early roach pressure, maybe evene a roach/bling/ling all-in? What if the zerg takes an very early third?
Still I think sky mech is an interesting approach to late game TvZ. And your build order leading up to this seems solid. I'll definitely try it out.
Kind regards
edit: I played a few games with this style now and my problem is that it's too passive midgame. You need to wait until you have a reasonable number of ravens in order to win the fight against the broodlord/infestor/corruptor army. Now when the big fight eventually happens I do win this fight but since the zerg had some time to mine he just builds a lot of ultralisks and rolls over the rest of my army and my base. I might still have a large air army but it's basically useless against a fast ground army. And I won't have enough thors in time to fight against all the broodlords. Any tips?
Thanks for the addition of this new build giving more entertainement and stability to this strategy. I watched recently the day9 daily on mass queen+ broodlord in the lategame, day9 said that the solution might be mass raven. I am can of doubtfull with this idea because you need more time to get all the ravens upgrade althoug for the zerg massing queens can be done really quickly. I saw the replays on full air in the late game : this games are 1 hour long ! in the day9 replay the mass queen /brood is on 3 bases at around 16mn.
here is the link :
did you already encouter a situation with mass queen + brood/infestor army ? Can you post a replay on it ?
How do you guys react if you notice that the zerg is going really roach heavy in the midgame?
I see 3 possible and more or less effectiv options:
(1) continue to produce thor+hellion and just make a few tanks (2) going tank heavy maybe 10-12 tanks with just 1-2 thors for muta defense (3) increase the factory number in a total of 4 and build 2 starports with banshees
Yesterday I played a game with almost no tanks. I had about 3 the whole game and it eventually went to Vikings/Ravens/BCs/Hellions vs. BL/Corrupter/Infestor
I was neural parasited and fungaled to death! I think tanks in this situation are absolutely crucial to sniping those pesky Infestors. Without neural I would have steam-rolled I think but when Thors start to shoot at your own Vikings bad things happen.
On June 02 2012 20:43 saaaa wrote: How do i defend a roach/bling attack in the early game if i play a 2 Fac Blue Flame Hellion opening?
i always get crushed by this timing attack
i feel that this is the problem with that build, i suggest you go 1 rax fe into reactor hellions off 2 gases, and then get a starport and go cloaked banshees, they will help you out alot, but make sure you scout well and get tanks fast if you're sure that this is what he is doing
On June 02 2012 20:43 saaaa wrote: How do i defend a roach/bling attack in the early game if i play a 2 Fac Blue Flame Hellion opening?
i always get crushed by this timing attack
i feel that this is the problem with that build, i suggest you go 1 rax fe into reactor hellions off 2 gases, and then get a starport and go cloaked banshees, they will help you out alot, but make sure you scout well and get tanks fast if you're sure that this is what he is doing
And how should i defend it with my 2 fac bf hellion build? Is there any "plan" how to defend it the best way?
On June 02 2012 20:43 saaaa wrote: How do i defend a roach/bling attack in the early game if i play a 2 Fac Blue Flame Hellion opening?
i always get crushed by this timing attack
i feel that this is the problem with that build, i suggest you go 1 rax fe into reactor hellions off 2 gases, and then get a starport and go cloaked banshees, they will help you out alot, but make sure you scout well and get tanks fast if you're sure that this is what he is doing
And how should i defend it with my 2 fac bf hellion build? Is there any "plan" how to defend it the best way?
Cancel blue flame and make tanks with siege mode out of the tech labbed factory
I've been doing this for a while now and it works pretty good at my lowish silver/gold level. In fact many Zerg players at this level seem very suprised that somebody is playing full mech and they react very poorly to it.
One just complained about "this stupid all-in that will work 1 out of 15 times" after I arrived at his base with 200/200 mech after something like 18 minutes. Huh?
Thank you for this guide! I do a variation of this build every TvZ and it was helpful to read your thoughts, it really clarified things. Today I had a game where I lost in a base trade o.O ... but now after reading your guide I see exactly why.
Can someone tell me how to deal with a zerg that gets UBER early 3rd (5:50)? I can pressure it with hellions but that's about it. Is there any timing I can hit to take it out?
On June 09 2012 08:06 Debian wrote: Can someone tell me how to deal with a zerg that gets UBER early 3rd (5:50)? I can pressure it with hellions but that's about it. Is there any timing I can hit to take it out?
If you scout it while it's going down, build a bunker out of sight range, rally marines to it, then defend it from lings with hellions, use the bunker to target down the hatch
I have a very big problem with Massroach style. They seem to be too speedy. Combinated with Drops they jsut wreck me - no matter what.
You now think: Get turrets - you got the money. So thatss what i was dooing. Turrets. But they jsut fly ober them with not loaded overlords and drop and destroy the turrets. Menwhile they attack my 3rd with another squad (thats ok cause i leave some of my army there). Another problem is: PF do literally nothing vs roach.
When they drop on my tanks is also very bad. If I unsiege he swarms in with other roaches and kills me.
Got suggestions? Going more air? I normally have some Banshees but their killspeed is so low.
They also stop every Hellion Hrass, cause they are so cheap and speedy
Please help Im Diamond Terran. Mostly playing high diamond & low masters
On June 13 2012 05:39 saaaa wrote: How do you play against Roach/Bling/Infestor with Mech?
What composition is the best against this?
You're going mech. Make tanks.
yes but he can switch to BL and with like 12+ Tanks and just some thors i have no chance if he do this transition.
and just viking against BL/corrupter/infestor is suicide.
Well you always have some Hellions and Thors. You cant just make only tanks. I find Broodlord/Corruptor/Infestor/roach vs Mech very entertaining/"easy". You need some scans, quick reacition timefor siege. you kite the broods/corruptors into your thor splash. If he tries to fungal or attack with the roaches you focusfire with sieged tanks. (you siege them if you see him coming with roaches. they are behind your army so you have the time to siege them. You use hellions to buffer the damage/prevent the raoches from coming to close. And they kill the broodlings fast. you also need some scvs for reapair (thors mainly).
also just vikings never happens vs that composition. you always have at least 1 raven because you need the detection
Im right now having problems with some early midgame aggression with roaches and in over 10 games i havent been able to find a way to beat it, its in the time when you have 2 thors....
On June 09 2012 08:06 Debian wrote: Can someone tell me how to deal with a zerg that gets UBER early 3rd (5:50)? I can pressure it with hellions but that's about it. Is there any timing I can hit to take it out?
If you scout it while it's going down, build a bunker out of sight range, rally marines to it, then defend it from lings with hellions, use the bunker to target down the hatch
On June 16 2012 03:45 framtidenskrig wrote: Im right now having problems with some early midgame aggression with roaches and in over 10 games i havent been able to find a way to beat it, its in the time when you have 2 thors....
See it coming and make sure you start tanks immediately after you have a couple of thors. Pull SCVs before the roaches are running up your natural. Keep them between the roaches and your thors, and repair.
Depending on how many roaches there are you either bring hellions back or run them into his natural / main. Ideally the latter, of course.
On June 09 2012 08:06 Debian wrote: Can someone tell me how to deal with a zerg that gets UBER early 3rd (5:50)? I can pressure it with hellions but that's about it. Is there any timing I can hit to take it out?
If you scout it while it's going down, build a bunker out of sight range, rally marines to it, then defend it from lings with hellions, use the bunker to target down the hatch
On June 15 2012 18:11 Tppz! wrote: I have a very big problem with Massroach style. They seem to be too speedy. Combinated with Drops they jsut wreck me - no matter what.
You now think: Get turrets - you got the money. So thatss what i was dooing. Turrets. But they jsut fly ober them with not loaded overlords and drop and destroy the turrets. Menwhile they attack my 3rd with another squad (thats ok cause i leave some of my army there). Another problem is: PF do literally nothing vs roach.
When they drop on my tanks is also very bad. If I unsiege he swarms in with other roaches and kills me.
Got suggestions? Going more air? I normally have some Banshees but their killspeed is so low.
They also stop every Hellion Hrass, cause they are so cheap and speedy
Please help Im Diamond Terran. Mostly playing high diamond & low masters
Hey there, personally I think it's partially inevitable that if he commits to a massive roach attack then he will do some damage. Turrets limit the damage a bit by killing the overlords, sometimes with roaches in them, but you still need to have units at home in advance to stop this. Try leaving 2 tanks sieged up next to your orbital to hit roaches as they drop, and in my games I like to build a sizeable banshee fleet, I'm talking at least 5 banshees, which easily clean up drops much faster than you'd think. Once you have quite a few, the killspeed is actually higher than you would imagine.
Having quite a few banshees is also great for if they drop on your tanks, since it makes it much easier to clean up that kinda thing. It's really hard to deal with heavy drops ontop of your army, your best bet is to have your tanks spread out nicely, have 2~ turrets up or so infront of your army (stops mutas, drops and burrowed movement) and have quite a few thors mixed in as well. But the main thing is the banshees, keep them alive and they keep you alive.
On June 16 2012 03:45 framtidenskrig wrote: Im right now having problems with some early midgame aggression with roaches and in over 10 games i havent been able to find a way to beat it, its in the time when you have 2 thors....
Hey, like above, this kinda thing can be stopped with banshees, but you have to be careful to keep them alive when you're harassing with them. They really make the difference as long as you know the roaches are coming, with that said, sometimes you'll still fall and it's just because you didn't do enough harassment damage and your macro was slow. It comes with practice but you should stop losing to this kind of thing soon.
In these replays you'll notice that if I have too high a tank count by the end then I just take a bunch, 4-5 of them and send them around the side to snipe a hatchery. In the lategame, having too high a tank count can be the factor that costs you the air war, and you don't need many once you start adding in banshees/battlecruisers.
I hope this helps guys. You can always see me playing mech on my stream as well and you can ask questions there, or don't hesitate to PM me if you'd rather not post on the thread directly.
... I hope this helps guys. You can always see me playing mech on my stream as well and you can ask questions there, or don't hesitate to PM me if you'd rather not post on the thread directly.
What is your channel and when do you stream? Really want to check it out. I need all the examples I can find for TvZ right now.
Is there any counter to roach drop on army? I just watched Violet vs MVP and MVP got owned so hard. Violet scouted he was going mech a bit late but he still got out overlord drop with speed and dropped on MVPs army at like 14 min and completely smashed him.
On June 16 2012 03:45 framtidenskrig wrote: Im right now having problems with some early midgame aggression with roaches and in over 10 games i havent been able to find a way to beat it, its in the time when you have 2 thors....
Unfortunatly, mech does not have a counter for this. I played mech till GM level but with the new patch, you are lying to yourself if you think you can defend against a capeable zerg who realises that in the early midgame the terran defence consists of 4-6 thors, 3-4 banshees, maybe a couple of siege tanks when he himself can max out on roaches by 12 minutes (and that is a generous amount of units for the terran).
The whole point of the banshee hellion build was, initially, to totally prevent a zerg from being able to take a third until he got mutas. This is just not the case anymore and a zerg can defend without using larva for anything but drones, consequently, they have a timing between around 10 min and 15 min when you have no chance of defending, should they try to attack. This is a huge current flaw with mech and one that unfortunatly makes mech not viable right now (unless you ignore it and plow on, but at 1300-1400 master, many zergs employ such a strategy)
... I hope this helps guys. You can always see me playing mech on my stream as well and you can ask questions there, or don't hesitate to PM me if you'd rather not post on the thread directly.
What is your channel and when do you stream? Really want to check it out. I need all the examples I can find for TvZ right now.
On June 28 2012 13:49 Debian wrote: Is there any counter to roach drop on army? I just watched Violet vs MVP and MVP got owned so hard. Violet scouted he was going mech a bit late but he still got out overlord drop with speed and dropped on MVPs army at like 14 min and completely smashed him.
It's true that roach drops can crush a mech army, however we should point out that in this game MVP didn't even unsiege, he was so screwed. Roach drops will always trade better with a mech army than most other things jerg can do (though roach/hydra is even better), but there are ways to prevent it. It's hard to really scout if he's going to drop your main army, because drop is an upgrade researched at the lair so it's harder to work out when it's being made.
However I don't think that the existence of roach drops nullify this style. In my games I often build turret rings around my army, the best example of this is on Daybreak, where once you take the middle base I build 4 turrets in an arc around the base, or on Antiga I build two in the low ground area. Turrets are a minimal investment to prevent drops like this. There's also the case that your army when you're playing a style similar to mine, won't really be pure tank. At most you should go up to 10 tanks, and that's only in extreme cases. Most of the time you'll probably have around 6-7 tanks, which, if well spread out, can do well in roach drop scenarios when you add in the fact that you're intended to have five or so banshees as well as thors mixed in.
You should also be prepared with at least some starports, in at least some games. This means that once you notice him doing weird things (having clumps of overlords outside his base, which indicates an incoming drop) you can build a nice number of vikings. Having something like 6 vikings helps tons, as you can shoot down overlords before they empty, and it means you clear up all the overlords from the drop which - assuming you survive - puts you in a great position as he has to use all his larvae to make new overlords and not useful units.
On June 16 2012 03:45 framtidenskrig wrote: Im right now having problems with some early midgame aggression with roaches and in over 10 games i havent been able to find a way to beat it, its in the time when you have 2 thors....
Unfortunatly, mech does not have a counter for this. I played mech till GM level but with the new patch, you are lying to yourself if you think you can defend against a capeable zerg who realises that in the early midgame the terran defence consists of 4-6 thors, 3-4 banshees, maybe a couple of siege tanks when he himself can max out on roaches by 12 minutes (and that is a generous amount of units for the terran).
The whole point of the banshee hellion build was, initially, to totally prevent a zerg from being able to take a third until he got mutas. This is just not the case anymore and a zerg can defend without using larva for anything but drones, consequently, they have a timing between around 10 min and 15 min when you have no chance of defending, should they try to attack. This is a huge current flaw with mech and one that unfortunatly makes mech not viable right now (unless you ignore it and plow on, but at 1300-1400 master, many zergs employ such a strategy)
I want to dispute this post. I finished last season at 1300 points, so admittedly I'm not the peak of masters, but this season I'm 30-10 in TvZ on ladder and using hellion/banshee I feel it's not even necessary to deny a third to be ahead. Overzealous zergs who think they can rely on queens to defend are in fact, wrong, and once you have around 8 hellions and 2 banshees, you can start to do real damage. You force him to make units before he is saturated, and you can defend pushes easily with banshees and just a few tanks as long as you don't fail on your macro. If you scout he isn't going mutalisk and overbuild thors (6 is way too many at this stage) then you are going to be gimping yourself and leave a hole for this kind of attack, but as long as you have a few tanks it's really easy to stabilise from any aggression with the banshees to help out.
A lot of zergs will build say 15 roaches, but once your banshees start whaling on them from the middle of the map, they turn around as they know they can't break you.
It's not about the viability of the opener, it is indeed very strong and adding a raven will almost always score worthwhile damage. It is more about the many weaknesses of mech early game and how early a zerg can produce a powerful army. Sure, you can do a runby with hellions and kill dozens of drones or kill many queens, but that says nothing about the viability of mech, since transitioning into bio after that would be just as viable. There are zergs who builds spine crawlers at smart locations and can therefore totally deny any crippling damage.
I really wish you were right, but hundreds of games have shown me otherwise. Please provide a replay where you deal no significant damage with the opener and then survive a strong drg-esque aggression and proceed to win the game later on and I'll reconsider perhaps.
On June 09 2012 08:06 Debian wrote: Can someone tell me how to deal with a zerg that gets UBER early 3rd (5:50)? I can pressure it with hellions but that's about it. Is there any timing I can hit to take it out?
I want to point out that a 6 min third is not uber early. This is around the point where I am saturated on 2 base with 3 gasses just finished.
On June 29 2012 18:56 Pikachu. wrote: So what it the ultimate late game composition? Mass thor with bf hellions? Or a mixture of every mech unit?
BC Raven Viking hellion
re:a replay where I do no damage and survive a roach max, I can't find one where I did no damage and also was attacked with roaches but will ask a jerg friend to try this on me soon. All I can show you is this replay: http://drop.sc/209545 where I do no damage but win the game anyway, vs a GM zerg on NA apparently
On June 29 2012 18:56 Pikachu. wrote: So what it the ultimate late game composition? Mass thor with bf hellions? Or a mixture of every mech unit?
BC Raven Viking hellion
re:a replay where I do no damage and survive a roach max, I can't find one where I did no damage and also was attacked with roaches but will ask a jerg friend to try this on me soon. All I can show you is this replay: http://drop.sc/209545 where I do no damage but win the game anyway, vs a GM zerg on NA apparently
Thats a TvP upload the right replay and I'll look into it
On June 29 2012 23:48 LemonyTang wrote: Oh sorry, it's cloaked so I assumed it was the right one. http://drop.sc/209841
This guy has 3 queens and no creep spread when you arrive. He's therefore not playing very greedily. You force 9 Roaches that he does no damage with and you kill 3 queens, that together is SUBSTANTIAL damage. Then he transitions into spire that he makes 7 mutas out of. At 10 min he's at 45 drones while you are at 52 scvs. The damage that you dealt (more like he inflicted on himself) makes the game kinda pointless for my sake. That was a pretty good indication of a zerg doing everything he should not do. I didn't watch past 13 min, but if he actually did any damage to you and was even remotely close to winning then that should indicate something.
Trying to find a game that shows the scenario that I'm talking about.
On June 16 2012 03:45 framtidenskrig wrote: Im right now having problems with some early midgame aggression with roaches and in over 10 games i havent been able to find a way to beat it, its in the time when you have 2 thors....
Unfortunatly, mech does not have a counter for this. I played mech till GM level but with the new patch, you are lying to yourself if you think you can defend against a capeable zerg who realises that in the early midgame the terran defence consists of 4-6 thors, 3-4 banshees, maybe a couple of siege tanks when he himself can max out on roaches by 12 minutes (and that is a generous amount of units for the terran).
The whole point of the banshee hellion build was, initially, to totally prevent a zerg from being able to take a third until he got mutas. This is just not the case anymore and a zerg can defend without using larva for anything but drones, consequently, they have a timing between around 10 min and 15 min when you have no chance of defending, should they try to attack. This is a huge current flaw with mech and one that unfortunatly makes mech not viable right now (unless you ignore it and plow on, but at 1300-1400 master, many zergs employ such a strategy)
Unfortunately and sadly I'm starting to agree. I played mech with a pretty darn good win rate (i've played probably around 150-200 games) but as of late the mid game is just a nightmare. 6 queen opening into roaches makes it seemingly impossible to do any significant damage. From there zerg takes a third, maxes on roach ling mixes, and then just pummels the 3rd into oblivion. Mech doesn't really allow for counterattacks the way marine tank and mmm do imo. I also feel that tanks just don't cover enough area to protect both the third and the nat and if they can the main is very vulnerable to drop play.
mathematically it just seems tough. Early midgame terran is at 5 fact at MOST, or 4 tank/2 hellion, whereas 3 base zerg can output 18 larve in the same amount of time. A superior economy and an even is not better army production capability just seems like bad news to me
Replay. Basically I had +2 attack for ground and +2 for air. I should have upgraded more but whatever.
Summer: I got bane roach allined and he did alot of damage (37 worker kills) and threw me off but his economy wasn't that great so I was still in the game. I couldn't counter attack with banshees because of spores. I eventually stablized but I could never push him. I eventually took out his army once then he just remaxed on hydras I tried to use tanks but that didn't work because they all got owned by infested terran + hydras. I tried to use blue lame hellions a couple times but the numbers weren't massive and they all died like instantly.
So what exactly do you do if they remax on hydras?
Tank/hellion rapes hydra hard. You just took too much damage on the bust early on, he could have done anything and still win. Hydras are probably the single worst unit to go for against mech.
I want to address some of the problems some terrans have been having, namely 12 minute max on roaches.
The problem isn't mech, but that the build listed in this thread don't allow for any countermeasure against the zerg being very greedy, and don't establish a fast enough economy. A change in build order to change the progression of the game will solve the problems of zergs maxing out on roaches. A build I have been doing at mid masters is 2 rax, double cc, then 2 more raxes, you use the 4 raxes to wall off your natural, and put a bunker behind. Any 6-9 minute all in is deflected, and the 4 raxes allow for aggression against creep spread and a fast third. Bomber used this build in Code A against Freaky I think, and I think it's a build that should be explored. After the 4 raxes, you quickly get all your gases and then get mech.
If you don't die to a timing, and have trouble against any roach/infestor/x compositions. I think that you don't need to go mass tanks. 4-5 will do, they can target fire down all the infestors pretty quickly, then help kill all the roaches quickly enough. Too many tanks and you're too immobile and will die if you don't siege quickly enough, and not enough tanks will mean that infestors can do whatever, and roaches will trade too cost efficiently.
On June 16 2012 03:45 framtidenskrig wrote: Im right now having problems with some early midgame aggression with roaches and in over 10 games i havent been able to find a way to beat it, its in the time when you have 2 thors....
Unfortunatly, mech does not have a counter for this. I played mech till GM level but with the new patch, you are lying to yourself if you think you can defend against a capeable zerg who realises that in the early midgame the terran defence consists of 4-6 thors, 3-4 banshees, maybe a couple of siege tanks when he himself can max out on roaches by 12 minutes (and that is a generous amount of units for the terran).
The whole point of the banshee hellion build was, initially, to totally prevent a zerg from being able to take a third until he got mutas. This is just not the case anymore and a zerg can defend without using larva for anything but drones, consequently, they have a timing between around 10 min and 15 min when you have no chance of defending, should they try to attack. This is a huge current flaw with mech and one that unfortunatly makes mech not viable right now (unless you ignore it and plow on, but at 1300-1400 master, many zergs employ such a strategy)
Unfortunately and sadly I'm starting to agree. I played mech with a pretty darn good win rate (i've played probably around 150-200 games) but as of late the mid game is just a nightmare. 6 queen opening into roaches makes it seemingly impossible to do any significant damage. From there zerg takes a third, maxes on roach ling mixes, and then just pummels the 3rd into oblivion. Mech doesn't really allow for counterattacks the way marine tank and mmm do imo. I also feel that tanks just don't cover enough area to protect both the third and the nat and if they can the main is very vulnerable to drop play.
mathematically it just seems tough. Early midgame terran is at 5 fact at MOST, or 4 tank/2 hellion, whereas 3 base zerg can output 18 larve in the same amount of time. A superior economy and an even is not better army production capability just seems like bad news to me
I'd like to see a replay of this 6queen, fast third, into roaches. I do a push at 11:00 ish once the two thors are done with my Banshees and Hellions as well, and the best counter to that I've fought against is Infestors with a combination of Fungal and Infested Terrans, and he just doesn't have that if he goes for the fast third since it delays his lair.
Roach/Queen doesn't work amazingly since I can just park my Banshees over my Thors and my Hellions next to them, and use the superior range of my ground units over Roaches to keep them away and cover the Banshees by focusing down Queens with my two Thors if he focuses down my Banshees with them, and if he gets too close with lots of Roaches my Banshees and Hellions go to town. Hellions do a lot of splash in numbers to clumped roaches.
On June 16 2012 03:45 framtidenskrig wrote: Im right now having problems with some early midgame aggression with roaches and in over 10 games i havent been able to find a way to beat it, its in the time when you have 2 thors....
Unfortunatly, mech does not have a counter for this. I played mech till GM level but with the new patch, you are lying to yourself if you think you can defend against a capeable zerg who realises that in the early midgame the terran defence consists of 4-6 thors, 3-4 banshees, maybe a couple of siege tanks when he himself can max out on roaches by 12 minutes (and that is a generous amount of units for the terran).
The whole point of the banshee hellion build was, initially, to totally prevent a zerg from being able to take a third until he got mutas. This is just not the case anymore and a zerg can defend without using larva for anything but drones, consequently, they have a timing between around 10 min and 15 min when you have no chance of defending, should they try to attack. This is a huge current flaw with mech and one that unfortunatly makes mech not viable right now (unless you ignore it and plow on, but at 1300-1400 master, many zergs employ such a strategy)
Unfortunately and sadly I'm starting to agree. I played mech with a pretty darn good win rate (i've played probably around 150-200 games) but as of late the mid game is just a nightmare. 6 queen opening into roaches makes it seemingly impossible to do any significant damage. From there zerg takes a third, maxes on roach ling mixes, and then just pummels the 3rd into oblivion. Mech doesn't really allow for counterattacks the way marine tank and mmm do imo. I also feel that tanks just don't cover enough area to protect both the third and the nat and if they can the main is very vulnerable to drop play.
mathematically it just seems tough. Early midgame terran is at 5 fact at MOST, or 4 tank/2 hellion, whereas 3 base zerg can output 18 larve in the same amount of time. A superior economy and an even is not better army production capability just seems like bad news to me
I'd like to see a replay of this 6queen, fast third, into roaches. I do a push at 11:00 ish once the two thors are done with my Banshees and Hellions as well, and the best counter to that I've fought against is Infestors with a combination of Fungal and Infested Terrans, and he just doesn't have that if he goes for the fast third since it delays his lair.
Roach/Queen doesn't work amazingly since I can just park my Banshees over my Thors and my Hellions next to them, and use the superior range of my ground units over Roaches to keep them away and cover the Banshees by focusing down Queens with my two Thors if he focuses down my Banshees with them, and if he gets too close with lots of Roaches my Banshees and Hellions go to town. Hellions do a lot of splash in numbers to clumped roaches.
On June 16 2012 03:45 framtidenskrig wrote: Im right now having problems with some early midgame aggression with roaches and in over 10 games i havent been able to find a way to beat it, its in the time when you have 2 thors....
Unfortunatly, mech does not have a counter for this. I played mech till GM level but with the new patch, you are lying to yourself if you think you can defend against a capeable zerg who realises that in the early midgame the terran defence consists of 4-6 thors, 3-4 banshees, maybe a couple of siege tanks when he himself can max out on roaches by 12 minutes (and that is a generous amount of units for the terran).
The whole point of the banshee hellion build was, initially, to totally prevent a zerg from being able to take a third until he got mutas. This is just not the case anymore and a zerg can defend without using larva for anything but drones, consequently, they have a timing between around 10 min and 15 min when you have no chance of defending, should they try to attack. This is a huge current flaw with mech and one that unfortunatly makes mech not viable right now (unless you ignore it and plow on, but at 1300-1400 master, many zergs employ such a strategy)
Unfortunately and sadly I'm starting to agree. I played mech with a pretty darn good win rate (i've played probably around 150-200 games) but as of late the mid game is just a nightmare. 6 queen opening into roaches makes it seemingly impossible to do any significant damage. From there zerg takes a third, maxes on roach ling mixes, and then just pummels the 3rd into oblivion. Mech doesn't really allow for counterattacks the way marine tank and mmm do imo. I also feel that tanks just don't cover enough area to protect both the third and the nat and if they can the main is very vulnerable to drop play.
mathematically it just seems tough. Early midgame terran is at 5 fact at MOST, or 4 tank/2 hellion, whereas 3 base zerg can output 18 larve in the same amount of time. A superior economy and an even is not better army production capability just seems like bad news to me
I'd like to see a replay of this 6queen, fast third, into roaches. I do a push at 11:00 ish once the two thors are done with my Banshees and Hellions as well, and the best counter to that I've fought against is Infestors with a combination of Fungal and Infested Terrans, and he just doesn't have that if he goes for the fast third since it delays his lair.
Roach/Queen doesn't work amazingly since I can just park my Banshees over my Thors and my Hellions next to them, and use the superior range of my ground units over Roaches to keep them away and cover the Banshees by focusing down Queens with my two Thors if he focuses down my Banshees with them, and if he gets too close with lots of Roaches my Banshees and Hellions go to town. Hellions do a lot of splash in numbers to clumped roaches.
Add a few Hellions and put Thors around 30 seconds earlier due to supply blocks and me not putting guys in natural gas, which means delayed Banshees and Thors when my factories finish.
This should not be done against a Zerg who is going fast lair, as he will have lair tech out in either Mutalisks or Infestors, and both of these throw this for a loop as against Mutalisks, you have to have the Thors at home to defend your minerals, and against Infestors your push will die to Fungals and Infested Terrans without Siege Tanks to kill the Infestors.
I don't have a replay against a real opponent because one of two things happen: The Zerg doesn't do 6 queen 3 hatch. I screw up and don't have thors out.
Even in vs AI, I had to do 3 games before I managed to get these results. I have to practice more.
This is more of a discussion topic to try and beat the 6 queen 3 hatch opener than anything. It's better than QQing and waiting for a buff in any case.
Has anybody experimented with the mech transition after marine + blueflame pressure Bomber used in his 2nd game on Entombed Valley in code A?
It was a 12-14 rax, cc, cc, 2 more rax, getting 1 reacotfact and 1 techfact for blueflame and push. Afterwards, cut marine production and start meching.
It felt very safe, also against early mutalisk before Thor. You use the 4 rax for walls and later maybe for Ghost production.
For me an 450 mineral investment that early can be too dangerous. It might work once or twice but that's only at highest levels where he baniscally mind gamed his oponent into going 100% bio so he reacted accordingly, and then surprised him. 2 rax is enough, so you can float them for vision and scout and so on.
I try it a few times but just get neuraled to death by Infestors? Because i can not get my HSM's off to destroy the Infestors and if i move my BC in range they get neuraled. And i have to move them because with his BL's he damaged my PF walls.
Do i need tanks with this composition to cover my units from neural+fungal? Do i need vikings to close the distance between my Air units and his? What is the solution for this?
On July 12 2012 20:06 saaaa wrote: Is pure Air i meant Raven/BC viable?
I try it a few times but just get neuraled to death by Infestors? Because i can not get my HSM's off to destroy the Infestors and if i move my BC in range they get neuraled. And i have to move them because with his BL's he damaged my PF walls.
Do i need tanks with this composition to cover my units from neural+fungal? Do i need vikings to close the distance between my Air units and his? What is the solution for this?
It's definitely viable. You want to use yamato to kill as many infestors with high energy as possible in the battles, but you'll also need some vikings to beef out your composition. It's really hard to deal with someone who just goes pure infestor and neurals every single battlecruiser, but if he has no corruptors you can land vikings to kill them.
That said, it is useful to have 3-4 tanks covering your army from ground units, because queens are actually a huge deal in engagements and so having tanks to kill those off helps a bunch.
On July 12 2012 20:06 saaaa wrote: Is pure Air i meant Raven/BC viable?
I try it a few times but just get neuraled to death by Infestors? Because i can not get my HSM's off to destroy the Infestors and if i move my BC in range they get neuraled. And i have to move them because with his BL's he damaged my PF walls.
Do i need tanks with this composition to cover my units from neural+fungal? Do i need vikings to close the distance between my Air units and his? What is the solution for this?
It's definitely viable. You want to use yamato to kill as many infestors with high energy as possible in the battles, but you'll also need some vikings to beef out your composition. It's really hard to deal with someone who just goes pure infestor and neurals every single battlecruiser, but if he has no corruptors you can land vikings to kill them.
That said, it is useful to have 3-4 tanks covering your army from ground units, because queens are actually a huge deal in engagements and so having tanks to kill those off helps a bunch.
sure i forgot queens O.o
do you have any replays for me where you played just BC/Raven? In fact, in your opinion BC+Raven+Viking and some Back up tanks is the best possible composition?
Do you sometimes play directly air terran? I try a 1 rax FE with reactor hellion+cloak banshee to maybe deny his 3rd base and then transition with 3 Starport and double upgrades into BC/Raven. In my opinion its really strong but i'm just diamond.
On July 12 2012 20:06 saaaa wrote: Is pure Air i meant Raven/BC viable?
I try it a few times but just get neuraled to death by Infestors? Because i can not get my HSM's off to destroy the Infestors and if i move my BC in range they get neuraled. And i have to move them because with his BL's he damaged my PF walls.
Do i need tanks with this composition to cover my units from neural+fungal? Do i need vikings to close the distance between my Air units and his? What is the solution for this?
It's definitely viable. You want to use yamato to kill as many infestors with high energy as possible in the battles, but you'll also need some vikings to beef out your composition. It's really hard to deal with someone who just goes pure infestor and neurals every single battlecruiser, but if he has no corruptors you can land vikings to kill them.
That said, it is useful to have 3-4 tanks covering your army from ground units, because queens are actually a huge deal in engagements and so having tanks to kill those off helps a bunch.
sure i forgot queens O.o
do you have any replays for me where you played just BC/Raven? In fact, in your opinion BC+Raven+Viking and some Back up tanks is the best possible composition?
Do you sometimes play directly air terran? I try a 1 rax FE with reactor hellion+cloak banshee to maybe deny his 3rd base and then transition with 3 Starport and double upgrades into BC/Raven. In my opinion its really strong but i'm just diamond.
IMO that would die to an aggressive Zerg who goes Muta/Ling or Roach and attacks before your production really ramps up and you get enough BC's to survive. There might be a way to transition using Tank/BC/Missile Turret/Hellion to defend, though. I'm not really sure.
On July 12 2012 20:06 saaaa wrote: Is pure Air i meant Raven/BC viable?
I try it a few times but just get neuraled to death by Infestors? Because i can not get my HSM's off to destroy the Infestors and if i move my BC in range they get neuraled. And i have to move them because with his BL's he damaged my PF walls.
Do i need tanks with this composition to cover my units from neural+fungal? Do i need vikings to close the distance between my Air units and his? What is the solution for this?
It's definitely viable. You want to use yamato to kill as many infestors with high energy as possible in the battles, but you'll also need some vikings to beef out your composition. It's really hard to deal with someone who just goes pure infestor and neurals every single battlecruiser, but if he has no corruptors you can land vikings to kill them.
That said, it is useful to have 3-4 tanks covering your army from ground units, because queens are actually a huge deal in engagements and so having tanks to kill those off helps a bunch.
sure i forgot queens O.o
do you have any replays for me where you played just BC/Raven? In fact, in your opinion BC+Raven+Viking and some Back up tanks is the best possible composition?
Do you sometimes play directly air terran? I try a 1 rax FE with reactor hellion+cloak banshee to maybe deny his 3rd base and then transition with 3 Starport and double upgrades into BC/Raven. In my opinion its really strong but i'm just diamond.
IMO that would die to an aggressive Zerg who goes Muta/Ling or Roach and attacks before your production really ramps up and you get enough BC's to survive. There might be a way to transition using Tank/BC/Missile Turret/Hellion to defend, though. I'm not really sure.
i have like 4-5 banshees, 2 Thors and maybe 2-3 BC with a PF Wall at my 3rd and turret rings at my production+minerals.
I just died in my games because i underestimate the strength of corrupters. You need really early Ravens to deflect their attacks. Maybe after 3-4 BC you should start Raven production.
On July 12 2012 20:06 saaaa wrote: Is pure Air i meant Raven/BC viable?
I try it a few times but just get neuraled to death by Infestors? Because i can not get my HSM's off to destroy the Infestors and if i move my BC in range they get neuraled. And i have to move them because with his BL's he damaged my PF walls.
Do i need tanks with this composition to cover my units from neural+fungal? Do i need vikings to close the distance between my Air units and his? What is the solution for this?
It's definitely viable. You want to use yamato to kill as many infestors with high energy as possible in the battles, but you'll also need some vikings to beef out your composition. It's really hard to deal with someone who just goes pure infestor and neurals every single battlecruiser, but if he has no corruptors you can land vikings to kill them.
That said, it is useful to have 3-4 tanks covering your army from ground units, because queens are actually a huge deal in engagements and so having tanks to kill those off helps a bunch.
sure i forgot queens O.o
do you have any replays for me where you played just BC/Raven? In fact, in your opinion BC+Raven+Viking and some Back up tanks is the best possible composition?
Do you sometimes play directly air terran? I try a 1 rax FE with reactor hellion+cloak banshee to maybe deny his 3rd base and then transition with 3 Starport and double upgrades into BC/Raven. In my opinion its really strong but i'm just diamond.
IMO that would die to an aggressive Zerg who goes Muta/Ling or Roach and attacks before your production really ramps up and you get enough BC's to survive. There might be a way to transition using Tank/BC/Missile Turret/Hellion to defend, though. I'm not really sure.
i have like 4-5 banshees, 2 Thors and maybe 2-3 BC with a PF Wall at my 3rd and turret rings at my production+minerals.
I just died in my games because i underestimate the strength of corrupters. You need really early Ravens to deflect their attacks. Maybe after 3-4 BC you should start Raven production.
Sorry, I'm not sure we're on the same page: At about 12-13 minutes, the Zerg has 30+ Roaches attacking your front. Alternatively, at around 12 minutes, the Zerg has 13+ Mutalisks and 50+ Zerglings attacking and counter-attacking you constantly. The last option is he's on 3-4 bases with 60-80 Drones and may be teching to Hive depending on how many units you're forcing. At least, these are the situations I've been in. You can probably swap the compositions around a bit depending on what he scouts from you. Edit: I forgot to mention, these numbers are guesses from experience.
When do you have 2-3 BC's, 2 Thors, 4-5 Banshees, a PF, and Missile Turrets everywhere, and how much stuff do you have at 12-13 minutes?
On July 12 2012 20:06 saaaa wrote: Is pure Air i meant Raven/BC viable?
I try it a few times but just get neuraled to death by Infestors? Because i can not get my HSM's off to destroy the Infestors and if i move my BC in range they get neuraled. And i have to move them because with his BL's he damaged my PF walls.
Do i need tanks with this composition to cover my units from neural+fungal? Do i need vikings to close the distance between my Air units and his? What is the solution for this?
It's definitely viable. You want to use yamato to kill as many infestors with high energy as possible in the battles, but you'll also need some vikings to beef out your composition. It's really hard to deal with someone who just goes pure infestor and neurals every single battlecruiser, but if he has no corruptors you can land vikings to kill them.
That said, it is useful to have 3-4 tanks covering your army from ground units, because queens are actually a huge deal in engagements and so having tanks to kill those off helps a bunch.
sure i forgot queens O.o
do you have any replays for me where you played just BC/Raven? In fact, in your opinion BC+Raven+Viking and some Back up tanks is the best possible composition?
Do you sometimes play directly air terran? I try a 1 rax FE with reactor hellion+cloak banshee to maybe deny his 3rd base and then transition with 3 Starport and double upgrades into BC/Raven. In my opinion its really strong but i'm just diamond.
IMO that would die to an aggressive Zerg who goes Muta/Ling or Roach and attacks before your production really ramps up and you get enough BC's to survive. There might be a way to transition using Tank/BC/Missile Turret/Hellion to defend, though. I'm not really sure.
i have like 4-5 banshees, 2 Thors and maybe 2-3 BC with a PF Wall at my 3rd and turret rings at my production+minerals.
I just died in my games because i underestimate the strength of corrupters. You need really early Ravens to deflect their attacks. Maybe after 3-4 BC you should start Raven production.
Sorry, I'm not sure we're on the same page: At about 12-13 minutes, the Zerg has 30+ Roaches attacking your front. Alternatively, at around 12 minutes, the Zerg has 13+ Mutalisks and 50+ Zerglings attacking and counter-attacking you constantly. The last option is he's on 3-4 bases with 60-80 Drones and may be teching to Hive depending on how many units you're forcing. At least, these are the situations I've been in. You can probably swap the compositions around a bit depending on what he scouts from you. Edit: I forgot to mention, these numbers are guesses from experience.
When do you have 2-3 BC's, 2 Thors, 4-5 Banshees, a PF, and Missile Turrets everywhere, and how much stuff do you have at 12-13 minutes?
ok ich checked my build and i start 2-3 bc's at the 14Min Mark. Until now i never faced a roach max at 13 Min.
On July 12 2012 20:06 saaaa wrote: Is pure Air i meant Raven/BC viable?
I try it a few times but just get neuraled to death by Infestors? Because i can not get my HSM's off to destroy the Infestors and if i move my BC in range they get neuraled. And i have to move them because with his BL's he damaged my PF walls.
Do i need tanks with this composition to cover my units from neural+fungal? Do i need vikings to close the distance between my Air units and his? What is the solution for this?
It's definitely viable. You want to use yamato to kill as many infestors with high energy as possible in the battles, but you'll also need some vikings to beef out your composition. It's really hard to deal with someone who just goes pure infestor and neurals every single battlecruiser, but if he has no corruptors you can land vikings to kill them.
That said, it is useful to have 3-4 tanks covering your army from ground units, because queens are actually a huge deal in engagements and so having tanks to kill those off helps a bunch.
sure i forgot queens O.o
do you have any replays for me where you played just BC/Raven? In fact, in your opinion BC+Raven+Viking and some Back up tanks is the best possible composition?
Do you sometimes play directly air terran? I try a 1 rax FE with reactor hellion+cloak banshee to maybe deny his 3rd base and then transition with 3 Starport and double upgrades into BC/Raven. In my opinion its really strong but i'm just diamond.
IMO that would die to an aggressive Zerg who goes Muta/Ling or Roach and attacks before your production really ramps up and you get enough BC's to survive. There might be a way to transition using Tank/BC/Missile Turret/Hellion to defend, though. I'm not really sure.
i have like 4-5 banshees, 2 Thors and maybe 2-3 BC with a PF Wall at my 3rd and turret rings at my production+minerals.
I just died in my games because i underestimate the strength of corrupters. You need really early Ravens to deflect their attacks. Maybe after 3-4 BC you should start Raven production.
Sorry, I'm not sure we're on the same page: At about 12-13 minutes, the Zerg has 30+ Roaches attacking your front. Alternatively, at around 12 minutes, the Zerg has 13+ Mutalisks and 50+ Zerglings attacking and counter-attacking you constantly. The last option is he's on 3-4 bases with 60-80 Drones and may be teching to Hive depending on how many units you're forcing. At least, these are the situations I've been in. You can probably swap the compositions around a bit depending on what he scouts from you. Edit: I forgot to mention, these numbers are guesses from experience.
When do you have 2-3 BC's, 2 Thors, 4-5 Banshees, a PF, and Missile Turrets everywhere, and how much stuff do you have at 12-13 minutes?
ok ich checked my build and i start 2-3 bc's at the 14Min Mark. Until now i never faced a roach max at 13 Min.
Well it's not a max out since the Zerg can't take a 4:30 third base, but it is a lot of Roaches. Do you mind uploading a replay? I think it would be much easier to check that out and see everything there.
On July 12 2012 20:06 saaaa wrote: Is pure Air i meant Raven/BC viable?
I try it a few times but just get neuraled to death by Infestors? Because i can not get my HSM's off to destroy the Infestors and if i move my BC in range they get neuraled. And i have to move them because with his BL's he damaged my PF walls.
Do i need tanks with this composition to cover my units from neural+fungal? Do i need vikings to close the distance between my Air units and his? What is the solution for this?
It's definitely viable. You want to use yamato to kill as many infestors with high energy as possible in the battles, but you'll also need some vikings to beef out your composition. It's really hard to deal with someone who just goes pure infestor and neurals every single battlecruiser, but if he has no corruptors you can land vikings to kill them.
That said, it is useful to have 3-4 tanks covering your army from ground units, because queens are actually a huge deal in engagements and so having tanks to kill those off helps a bunch.
sure i forgot queens O.o
do you have any replays for me where you played just BC/Raven? In fact, in your opinion BC+Raven+Viking and some Back up tanks is the best possible composition?
Do you sometimes play directly air terran? I try a 1 rax FE with reactor hellion+cloak banshee to maybe deny his 3rd base and then transition with 3 Starport and double upgrades into BC/Raven. In my opinion its really strong but i'm just diamond.
This is me beating Xlord with sky terran, it goes a bit mental towards the end when the game turns away from big engagements and into 'base trade' esque harassment, but I hope you get the pciture. Going straight into air terran is way too risky, you'll die to mass ling/roach everytime. You have to establish your economy with tanks before making the switch!
On July 12 2012 20:06 saaaa wrote: Is pure Air i meant Raven/BC viable?
I try it a few times but just get neuraled to death by Infestors? Because i can not get my HSM's off to destroy the Infestors and if i move my BC in range they get neuraled. And i have to move them because with his BL's he damaged my PF walls.
Do i need tanks with this composition to cover my units from neural+fungal? Do i need vikings to close the distance between my Air units and his? What is the solution for this?
It's definitely viable. You want to use yamato to kill as many infestors with high energy as possible in the battles, but you'll also need some vikings to beef out your composition. It's really hard to deal with someone who just goes pure infestor and neurals every single battlecruiser, but if he has no corruptors you can land vikings to kill them.
That said, it is useful to have 3-4 tanks covering your army from ground units, because queens are actually a huge deal in engagements and so having tanks to kill those off helps a bunch.
sure i forgot queens O.o
do you have any replays for me where you played just BC/Raven? In fact, in your opinion BC+Raven+Viking and some Back up tanks is the best possible composition?
Do you sometimes play directly air terran? I try a 1 rax FE with reactor hellion+cloak banshee to maybe deny his 3rd base and then transition with 3 Starport and double upgrades into BC/Raven. In my opinion its really strong but i'm just diamond.
This is me beating Xlord with sky terran, it goes a bit mental towards the end when the game turns away from big engagements and into 'base trade' esque harassment, but I hope you get the pciture. Going straight into air terran is way too risky, you'll die to mass ling/roach everytime. You have to establish your economy with tanks before making the switch!
Nice game Sir! Now imma start playing mech again ^:D Thanks alotie!
i always play mech and play rly thor heavy and add ravens for hunter seeker and vikings if i see blord , what do you think bout it? after like 5 factory production i add 2-4 starports. im currently master rank 30 and seems to work for me
On July 22 2012 15:04 coldscars wrote: i always play mech and play rly thor heavy and add ravens for hunter seeker and vikings if i see blord , what do you think bout it? after like 5 factory production i add 2-4 starports. im currently master rank 30 and seems to work for me
This is similar to what I do, it works like a charm.
You have to watch out for mass Roach attacks though, you have to get at least 3-5 Siege Tanks to defend those, as well as having at least that many with your main army when you push to kill Infestors which try to NP your Thors and throw down mass Infested Terrans, and to make sure 200/200 Roach doesn't insta-roll your army if you don't push out at max supply.
Edit: You also want to make sure to add more Factories, since your main army is still Thor/Hellion/Tank, and you have to be really careful about adding Ravens and Vikings since they're useless(or less cost-effective than using more Tanks and Thors) if the Zerg does something like mass Roach/Infestor for the entire game.
On July 22 2012 15:04 coldscars wrote: i always play mech and play rly thor heavy and add ravens for hunter seeker and vikings if i see blord , what do you think bout it? after like 5 factory production i add 2-4 starports. im currently master rank 30 and seems to work for me
need a few siege tanks, like 5-10, for banelings and neuraling infestors, but otherwise it works
On July 22 2012 16:11 coldscars wrote: 3-4 tanks are enough 5-10 tanks is overkill. waste of supply
waste of supply..? you can argue that 3-4 tanks is enough but 5-10 tanks is certainly not waste of supply. 3-4 does not totally eliminate the possibility of banelings, nor infestors. But each to his own I guess.
On July 22 2012 08:37 Freeze967 wrote: Could you please update this with things like a picture for Condemned Ridge? Thanks.
Condemned Ridge is a very unique map in the ladder pool right now. Unlike maps like Antiga or Entombed, there aren't any obvious high ground locations to put your units to be safe. This means that the way I like to play CR is to take the initiative. I try to be as offensive as possible with hellions and banshees, and using the banshees proactively means that you can be a bit more straightforward in your defensive positioning.
In these replays you should notice some things which I'll try to talk about below.
First of all, your natural is a very big area. This means it takes a long time to have enough buildings to 'zone' within it, so don't worry about your bunker covering everything. Your main goal with the bunker is to cover the mineral line and to have a low surface area to stop it dying to zerglings. Then, later in the game, you'll want to wall off the natural with depots. I put X's where you can put depots that I neglected to in this replay, and you should use the big area behind your gas for more production buildings. In the picture they're factories, but they can just as well be starports. When you take the third, it's obvious it's such a huge area that you can't really abuse anything to defend it. This means you have to be proactive. As you can see, I circled where my hellions are and my banshees. I'm trying to make sure I know if his army moves out and can react as early as possible, but also by having my banshees ready there, I can keep him penned in until mutas come at least. You can also keep your reinforcements rallied to your natural ramp so that your main is safe. CR is also a huge huge map. It's great for late game TvZ with sky terran because you can take so many bases. Typically, once I'm approaching max, I build a CC at every single base on my side of the map and morph into orbitals. You can always lift if they get attacked, but the map is so huge you can easily play greedy like this.
If, as is often the case, zerg goes muta then it's okay to spam turrets. I usually put 2 in every mineral line, 2 in my main to help thors popping out and then as many as I want in the area infront of my army - i do this on all maps. Usually I build 2-4 turrets at the front for a number of reasons. They help take down muta, they're cheap cannon fodder to buffer more damage and they create chokes jerg has to funnel through.
On July 12 2012 20:06 saaaa wrote: Is pure Air i meant Raven/BC viable?
I try it a few times but just get neuraled to death by Infestors? Because i can not get my HSM's off to destroy the Infestors and if i move my BC in range they get neuraled. And i have to move them because with his BL's he damaged my PF walls.
Do i need tanks with this composition to cover my units from neural+fungal? Do i need vikings to close the distance between my Air units and his? What is the solution for this?
It's definitely viable. You want to use yamato to kill as many infestors with high energy as possible in the battles, but you'll also need some vikings to beef out your composition. It's really hard to deal with someone who just goes pure infestor and neurals every single battlecruiser, but if he has no corruptors you can land vikings to kill them.
That said, it is useful to have 3-4 tanks covering your army from ground units, because queens are actually a huge deal in engagements and so having tanks to kill those off helps a bunch.
sure i forgot queens O.o
do you have any replays for me where you played just BC/Raven? In fact, in your opinion BC+Raven+Viking and some Back up tanks is the best possible composition?
Do you sometimes play directly air terran? I try a 1 rax FE with reactor hellion+cloak banshee to maybe deny his 3rd base and then transition with 3 Starport and double upgrades into BC/Raven. In my opinion its really strong but i'm just diamond.
This is me beating Xlord with sky terran, it goes a bit mental towards the end when the game turns away from big engagements and into 'base trade' esque harassment, but I hope you get the pciture. Going straight into air terran is way too risky, you'll die to mass ling/roach everytime. You have to establish your economy with tanks before making the switch!
Instead of stubbornly trying to match your air army by building all those corruptors he could have just went ultra roach and killed off your bases. In the end of the game he sort of did that with the roaches, and despite it being too late for him to make a comback, he still managed to make it closer. If he had done that earlier idk If you could have defended. Once your production was killed off then he could have worn down your remaining army with fungal and corruptors. That guy just didn't adapt to the situation and thought his gglords could win him the game.
Things I did wrong: -Scouting for Zergs T2, even though I hardly took any damage, I knew way to late what unit was coming. -To inactive with my Hellions. I did 2 runby's which both did good damage, I should do more of those. -Expand to a third quite late, and get it denied a couple of times. -Not expand during my Hive Timing 'doom push'. -Not adding appropriate infrastructure in time. -Deciding I needed a Starport and doing pretty much nothing with it. -Having no idea of Army control. -Getting my first attempted third killed by my own Siege Tanks (Tanks doing more damage to my CC than to the lings attacking them is retarded btw).
I'm very unfamiliar with mech. Recently, I changed hotkey setup, got a new laptop + new mouse, started playing Random and dropped a league doing so, causing me to play slow and kinda sloppy.
I'm sorry about the language in the end, I felt extremely frustrated that I lost to a Zerg whom I feel was inferior (losing tons of mutas for no damage, letting me kill a lot of drones with runby's, NOT EVEN SCOUTING TO CHECK MY RACE, going 3 macrohatch before queens it felt like, and did nothing but 1a his broodlords and roaches...
Any help would be appreciated, especially on the macro front
I have been having so much fun against mech lately. Not only do the terrans play the style more because they can't handle the marine splitting bio-tank playstyle, but they give me juicy practice time against an otherwise unplayed style.
I have just gotten a reasonable third ( roughly 40 supply-ish ) and a lair after starting my first upgrade ( usually carapace ). Once the lair is started I start 6 roaches and defend against hellion attacks on my third, or trap them in my natural if they do decide to run by. When the lair is done, I immediately start building overseers, roughly 5 or 6. Any zerg that is having trouble against mech should try overseers.
Because Mech is so extremely reliant on getting early thors out to deal with a potential mutalisk techswitch, they skimp on any other anti-air like marines. This gives you the perfect oppertunity to go for a mass contaminate on the techlabbed factories and bum-rush his PF third with a large roach force. If your timings are good enough, the terran won't have enough Thors out to contest you killing the third and sniping SCV's. Even if he was going for a 2 base push, you delay it so much that you can get out an absolutely rediculously huge roach force with 6 infestors that will stomp any delayed mech force with infested terran spam and roach swarming.
If any of the well versed in mech could come up with a potential way to counteract this style, please enlighten me. Because unless you have atleast 5 marines out at the exact right place you can't stop 6 overseers from floating through your main and not get atleast 3 contaminates off.
What do you guys think about a 1 rax FE vs. CC first?
Is it viable in every case? I think about it to change all my builds (mostly 1 rax fe+reactor hellion with Cloak Banshee) into a 15 CC build to get the "extra" economy. Is it viable or should i just stay at my standard 1rax fe?
On July 26 2012 14:49 saaaa wrote: What do you guys think about a 1 rax FE vs. CC first?
Is it viable in every case? I think about it to change all my builds (mostly 1 rax fe+reactor hellion with Cloak Banshee) into a 15 CC build to get the "extra" economy. Is it viable or should i just stay at my standard 1rax fe?
MKP said it best in a recent interview that the only way zerg can punish CC first is a 6pool, so I definitely reccomend you start going CC first.
I've been meching in all my TvZ games recently as I've always found the more passive styles a hell of a lot more fun to play. I probably win more than I should as zergs at my level (platinum and diamond atm) seem to not know how to deal with it, but I basically super turtle and know that I'm super safe against anything they throw against me.
I get my third and make sure I have equal defense at both my third and natural with some walls to stop lings and slowly push out to take a fourth. When I'm on my fourth base it usually means I've got a good foothold and can start to split the map with turrets, more engineering bay walls and planetaries to help out against any ground armies. When I can get that to happen I know I'm in a decent position.
I try and make sure to hurass with thor drops and hellions depending what the zergs doing and I transition into a lot of ghosts for nukes later on against broodlords as they really help keep me defended. It may be boring and me winning may be completely luck based, but super turtling is working out for me at the moment as I usually just rip through any army that comes at me.
Almost lost a game to losing all my vikings before to a load of infestors today though x_x
For anyone interested my composition is usually mostly tanks with some thors and hellions mixed in, and I start building vikings very early as people usually try and get quick hive for Broodlords against me.
On July 26 2012 14:49 saaaa wrote: What do you guys think about a 1 rax FE vs. CC first?
Is it viable in every case? I think about it to change all my builds (mostly 1 rax fe+reactor hellion with Cloak Banshee) into a 15 CC build to get the "extra" economy. Is it viable or should i just stay at my standard 1rax fe?
MKP said it best in a recent interview that the only way zerg can punish CC first is a 6pool, so I definitely reccomend you start going CC first.
MKP said. That's why most of us should go for 1 Rax FE. He can defend crazy stuff (and even won with CC first against 6 pool ). CC First is good though. It depends on Map i think.
On July 26 2012 14:49 saaaa wrote: What do you guys think about a 1 rax FE vs. CC first?
Is it viable in every case? I think about it to change all my builds (mostly 1 rax fe+reactor hellion with Cloak Banshee) into a 15 CC build to get the "extra" economy. Is it viable or should i just stay at my standard 1rax fe?
MKP said it best in a recent interview that the only way zerg can punish CC first is a 6pool, so I definitely reccomend you start going CC first.
can you send me the link to this interview?
How many seconds is the normal reactor hellion+cloak banshee delayed? Do you know this, lemony? (or others, too)
On July 26 2012 14:49 saaaa wrote: What do you guys think about a 1 rax FE vs. CC first?
Is it viable in every case? I think about it to change all my builds (mostly 1 rax fe+reactor hellion with Cloak Banshee) into a 15 CC build to get the "extra" economy. Is it viable or should i just stay at my standard 1rax fe?
MKP said it best in a recent interview that the only way zerg can punish CC first is a 6pool, so I definitely reccomend you start going CC first.
can you send me the link to this interview?
How many seconds is the normal reactor hellion+cloak banshee delayed? Do you know this, lemony? (or others, too)
Here's the interview. I've no idea how long it's delayed sorry, but I don't think it's loads.
^^ re: Not everyone has the micro of MKP, this is true, but to be honest defending from zerg all ins isn't very micro intensive if you go hellion/cb. You set all your scvs to right click the bunker and auto-repair, use your banshees to either amove (okay) or rightclick on roaches to kill them all (good) and then spend all your micro on hellions, dodging forwards and back to make his roaches indecisive and kill any lings. Obviously target banelings first if you can, but yeah, it's easy.
On July 26 2012 14:49 saaaa wrote: What do you guys think about a 1 rax FE vs. CC first?
Is it viable in every case? I think about it to change all my builds (mostly 1 rax fe+reactor hellion with Cloak Banshee) into a 15 CC build to get the "extra" economy. Is it viable or should i just stay at my standard 1rax fe?
MKP said it best in a recent interview that the only way zerg can punish CC first is a 6pool, so I definitely reccomend you start going CC first.
can you send me the link to this interview?
How many seconds is the normal reactor hellion+cloak banshee delayed? Do you know this, lemony? (or others, too)
Here's the interview. I've no idea how long it's delayed sorry, but I don't think it's loads.
^^ re: Not everyone has the micro of MKP, this is true, but to be honest defending from zerg all ins isn't very micro intensive if you go hellion/cb. You set all your scvs to right click the bunker and auto-repair, use your banshees to either amove (okay) or rightclick on roaches to kill them all (good) and then spend all your micro on hellions, dodging forwards and back to make his roaches indecisive and kill any lings. Obviously target banelings first if you can, but yeah, it's easy.
great thx here are some really surprising facts:
The 15CC build doesn't delay anything. In fact you are faster than a normal No Gas FE because, you get your 1st Gas @ 3:05. That means you get your 1st gas like 30 seconds earlier compared to a No Gas FE (3:30-3:35). That accumlate and you get your starport with no 15CC @ 5:30 with a No Gas FE @ 4:45-5:00.
In economy you have with a No Gas FE like 45 @ 10:00 and with a 15CC 5-7 more, depends how flawless you execute your build.
I think thats really interesting and it shows that we all start to use 15CC. The only thing i'am worried about is the fact that the players in my replays, which i analyze did'nt build a bunker - maybe early lings can be a problem. But maybe we can trhough down the bunker when both CC are morphing.
On July 26 2012 14:49 saaaa wrote: What do you guys think about a 1 rax FE vs. CC first?
Is it viable in every case? I think about it to change all my builds (mostly 1 rax fe+reactor hellion with Cloak Banshee) into a 15 CC build to get the "extra" economy. Is it viable or should i just stay at my standard 1rax fe?
MKP said it best in a recent interview that the only way zerg can punish CC first is a 6pool, so I definitely reccomend you start going CC first.
can you send me the link to this interview?
How many seconds is the normal reactor hellion+cloak banshee delayed? Do you know this, lemony? (or others, too)
Here's the interview. I've no idea how long it's delayed sorry, but I don't think it's loads.
^^ re: Not everyone has the micro of MKP, this is true, but to be honest defending from zerg all ins isn't very micro intensive if you go hellion/cb. You set all your scvs to right click the bunker and auto-repair, use your banshees to either amove (okay) or rightclick on roaches to kill them all (good) and then spend all your micro on hellions, dodging forwards and back to make his roaches indecisive and kill any lings. Obviously target banelings first if you can, but yeah, it's easy.
great thx here are some really surprising facts:
The 15CC build doesn't delay anything. In fact you are faster than a normal No Gas FE because, you get your 1st Gas @ 3:05. That means you get your 1st gas like 30 seconds earlier compared to a No Gas FE (3:30-3:35). That accumlate and you get your starport with no 15CC @ 5:30 with a No Gas FE @ 4:45-5:00.
In economy you have with a No Gas FE like 45 @ 10:00 and with a 15CC 5-7 more, depends how flawless you execute your build.
I think thats really interesting and it shows that we all start to use 15CC. The only thing i'am worried about is the fact that the players in my replays, which i analyze did'nt build a bunker - maybe early lings can be a problem. But maybe we can trhough down the bunker when both CC are morphing.
are there any good replays of seeing MKP using CC first in TvZ so I can see what he does?
On July 26 2012 14:49 saaaa wrote: What do you guys think about a 1 rax FE vs. CC first?
Is it viable in every case? I think about it to change all my builds (mostly 1 rax fe+reactor hellion with Cloak Banshee) into a 15 CC build to get the "extra" economy. Is it viable or should i just stay at my standard 1rax fe?
MKP said it best in a recent interview that the only way zerg can punish CC first is a 6pool, so I definitely reccomend you start going CC first.
can you send me the link to this interview?
How many seconds is the normal reactor hellion+cloak banshee delayed? Do you know this, lemony? (or others, too)
Here's the interview. I've no idea how long it's delayed sorry, but I don't think it's loads.
^^ re: Not everyone has the micro of MKP, this is true, but to be honest defending from zerg all ins isn't very micro intensive if you go hellion/cb. You set all your scvs to right click the bunker and auto-repair, use your banshees to either amove (okay) or rightclick on roaches to kill them all (good) and then spend all your micro on hellions, dodging forwards and back to make his roaches indecisive and kill any lings. Obviously target banelings first if you can, but yeah, it's easy.
great thx here are some really surprising facts:
The 15CC build doesn't delay anything. In fact you are faster than a normal No Gas FE because, you get your 1st Gas @ 3:05. That means you get your 1st gas like 30 seconds earlier compared to a No Gas FE (3:30-3:35). That accumlate and you get your starport with no 15CC @ 5:30 with a No Gas FE @ 4:45-5:00.
In economy you have with a No Gas FE like 45 @ 10:00 and with a 15CC 5-7 more, depends how flawless you execute your build.
I think thats really interesting and it shows that we all start to use 15CC. The only thing i'am worried about is the fact that the players in my replays, which i analyze did'nt build a bunker - maybe early lings can be a problem. But maybe we can trhough down the bunker when both CC are morphing.
are there any good replays of seeing MKP using CC first in TvZ so I can see what he does?
MKP does a pretty standard 15CC -> 15 rax, start adding SCVs and get a second rax... then from there it depends on what you want from a midgame push. MMA/MKP sometimes add a 3rd rax, get double gas, then go for a +1/+1 timing with bio and medivacs. I've seen MKP go double gas after the 2 rax, add a factory (with a reactor), and go for marine/hellion/medivac pressure sort of like you would do with a 1 rax no gas FE into double gas. There is a lot of variability, and honestly you can do basicly anything you would do after a 1 rax no gas FE with just slightly different timings due to the CC first.
On July 26 2012 14:49 saaaa wrote: What do you guys think about a 1 rax FE vs. CC first?
Is it viable in every case? I think about it to change all my builds (mostly 1 rax fe+reactor hellion with Cloak Banshee) into a 15 CC build to get the "extra" economy. Is it viable or should i just stay at my standard 1rax fe?
MKP said it best in a recent interview that the only way zerg can punish CC first is a 6pool, so I definitely reccomend you start going CC first.
can you send me the link to this interview?
How many seconds is the normal reactor hellion+cloak banshee delayed? Do you know this, lemony? (or others, too)
Here's the interview. I've no idea how long it's delayed sorry, but I don't think it's loads.
^^ re: Not everyone has the micro of MKP, this is true, but to be honest defending from zerg all ins isn't very micro intensive if you go hellion/cb. You set all your scvs to right click the bunker and auto-repair, use your banshees to either amove (okay) or rightclick on roaches to kill them all (good) and then spend all your micro on hellions, dodging forwards and back to make his roaches indecisive and kill any lings. Obviously target banelings first if you can, but yeah, it's easy.
great thx here are some really surprising facts:
The 15CC build doesn't delay anything. In fact you are faster than a normal No Gas FE because, you get your 1st Gas @ 3:05. That means you get your 1st gas like 30 seconds earlier compared to a No Gas FE (3:30-3:35). That accumlate and you get your starport with no 15CC @ 5:30 with a No Gas FE @ 4:45-5:00.
In economy you have with a No Gas FE like 45 @ 10:00 and with a 15CC 5-7 more, depends how flawless you execute your build.
I think thats really interesting and it shows that we all start to use 15CC. The only thing i'am worried about is the fact that the players in my replays, which i analyze did'nt build a bunker - maybe early lings can be a problem. But maybe we can trhough down the bunker when both CC are morphing.
are there any good replays of seeing MKP using CC first in TvZ so I can see what he does?
MKP does a pretty standard 15CC -> 15 rax, start adding SCVs and get a second rax... then from there it depends on what you want from a midgame push. MMA/MKP sometimes add a 3rd rax, get double gas, then go for a +1/+1 timing with bio and medivacs. I've seen MKP go double gas after the 2 rax, add a factory (with a reactor), and go for marine/hellion/medivac pressure sort of like you would do with a 1 rax no gas FE into double gas. There is a lot of variability, and honestly you can do basicly anything you would do after a 1 rax no gas FE with just slightly different timings due to the CC first.
yeah but the only player who goes mech after 15CC is Mvp so far. MKP and MMA only went 15CC if they play bio heavy.
The Reactor Hellion+Cloakshee Build with 2 Armory was out of a 1 Rax FE of MKP.
What do you think about ghosts versus the air transition into BC/Raven/Vinking?
I not sure what i should add after my get 4th+5th Base. Should i add some ghosts? They are still amazing in my opinion because you can nuke/kill hatches and kill a lot of larvae and deny the zerg the instant remax which is crucial.
You have the chance to kill his whole army with a lucky nuke and you can nuke his tech and kill every tech building. Even you can take out creap with nukes not really cost effective but you can.
And you can EMP infestor thats the most relevant point in my opinion.
Battlecrusiers and Raven is a really scary composition with some vikings mixed in and if you play the late game correct it's really difficult to loose the game.
I'am interested in your opinions maybe we can add both types into our "standard" play.
On July 26 2012 14:49 saaaa wrote: What do you guys think about a 1 rax FE vs. CC first?
Is it viable in every case? I think about it to change all my builds (mostly 1 rax fe+reactor hellion with Cloak Banshee) into a 15 CC build to get the "extra" economy. Is it viable or should i just stay at my standard 1rax fe?
MKP said it best in a recent interview that the only way zerg can punish CC first is a 6pool, so I definitely reccomend you start going CC first.
can you send me the link to this interview?
How many seconds is the normal reactor hellion+cloak banshee delayed? Do you know this, lemony? (or others, too)
Gas first reactor hellion (ie 11-12 gas, 13 rax) gets hellions around 5:00. Standard old-school reactor hellion (12 rax, 13-14 gas) gets hellions around 5:30 Thorzain's build (12 rax, rally 15 refinery) gets hellions around 5:50 I think. Actually not sure even though its my standard build more or less ) CC first gets 6:30 hellions.
Gasless expand without 2nd supply (12 rax, 15 orbital, 16 cc, 16 refinery x2, then supply depot) gets hellions around 6:30 and finally: Gasless expand with 2nd supply (same build but supply depot before cc) gets hellions around 7 min.
The Banshee timings are obviously quite related to these timings.
On August 07 2012 21:22 saaaa wrote: What do you think about ghosts versus the air transition into BC/Raven/Vinking?
I not sure what i should add after my get 4th+5th Base. Should i add some ghosts? They are still amazing in my opinion because you can nuke/kill hatches and kill a lot of larvae and deny the zerg the instant remax which is crucial.
You have the chance to kill his whole army with a lucky nuke and you can nuke his tech and kill every tech building. Even you can take out creap with nukes not really cost effective but you can.
And you can EMP infestor thats the most relevant point in my opinion.
Battlecrusiers and Raven is a really scary composition with some vikings mixed in and if you play the late game correct it's really difficult to loose the game.
I'am interested in your opinions maybe we can add both types into our "standard" play.
so I have a question for any master league mech players who happen to stumble upon it- when I play mech against zerg, im decent at getting my 3ccs up and going at a reasonable rate, also I have good enough positioning (most times) to be able to deal with any roach attacks off of 3 bases and mutalisk harrass before the lategame. The problem that I often have is how to get back on the offensive. I often feel that by the time I am moving out (towards the zerg 4th or 5th depending on how they have been expanding) the zerg has hive tech up and ready for me and I have to retreat/hope to not lose too much as I scramble to get my raven/vikings out. It often goes downhill from there as I pretty much have to let them have map control and hope that I can win one big engagement, but my comp is often too far behind the zergs and I get stomped. I open up with no banshees, often in a totally defensive position and hope that my hellion harrass can do enough damage or at least force enough units to slow down his lategame tech. Am I making any fundamental mistakes with this strategy? Im pretty good at not making any of the classic mistakes with mech (moving unseiged onto creep, not being ready for muta tech switches, etc.) I think I can best summarize my problem by saying that Im good at not dying, but Im bad at being able to kill my opponent. Ile upload some reps as soon as I figure out how, but if anyone reads this and detects a big problem with my strat, any pointers would be welcome http://drop.sc/238738 http://drop.sc/238737 http://drop.sc/238736
On August 22 2012 15:16 Templar. wrote: When doing the 1rax fe-hellion/banshee harass, when should I cut hellion production and begin to make tanks and the siege upgrade?
i cant provide an exact answer here, but i think i can help a little- a lot of styles recently have been delaying the tanks for a LONG time. like the day9 daily that aired today had a game by supernova not getting tanks until like the 15 minute mark. you wanna be pushing out the hellions and thors and use banshees to keep the roaches from bullying you around in the midagame. If he attacks into you you just pull back with the banshees and repair thors and whatnot and you should be able to hold the attack no problem the reason you wanna cut the tanks is so that you can get your double armory up really fast and you can have an easier time playing for the lategame, also the banshees afford you all sorts of harass options that tanks dont. If you are lucky you might be able to snipe a third that isnt properly defended anyway I think that is the general idea behind the newish mech styles: delay tanks for as long as you can and rely on banshees to keep the roaches back. If im wrong please correct me mrtang
On August 22 2012 15:16 Templar. wrote: When doing the 1rax fe-hellion/banshee harass, when should I cut hellion production and begin to make tanks and the siege upgrade?
i cant provide an exact answer here, but i think i can help a little- a lot of styles recently have been delaying the tanks for a LONG time. like the day9 daily that aired today had a game by supernova not getting tanks until like the 15 minute mark. you wanna be pushing out the hellions and thors and use banshees to keep the roaches from bullying you around in the midagame. If he attacks into you you just pull back with the banshees and repair thors and whatnot and you should be able to hold the attack no problem the reason you wanna cut the tanks is so that you can get your double armory up really fast and you can have an easier time playing for the lategame, also the banshees afford you all sorts of harass options that tanks dont. If you are lucky you might be able to snipe a third that isnt properly defended anyway I think that is the general idea behind the newish mech styles: delay tanks for as long as you can and rely on banshees to keep the roaches back. If im wrong please correct me mrtang
This is exactly right. You almost never want your tank count to rise higher than 5-6 anyway, because it's dead supply against zerg hive. (Thors are better vs ultras, and obviously tanks dont shoot up). You only need a small tank count to punish roaches regardless, so don't worry too much about delaying tanks.
As for when exactly you build them, like was said, you delay them as much as possible. A general rule is once you see some roaches out, you should make 1-2 tanks to be safe, and when you take your third you want tanks out because you'll be more spread.