EPT[G] TvP 1 Rax Concussive FE - Page 3
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Inkarnate
Canada840 Posts
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SpaceJam
United States116 Posts
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hipsterdontlie
United States42 Posts
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Blazinghand
United States25562 Posts
On January 19 2012 05:57 Louis8k8 wrote: Gaseless FE? As in 1 gate gasless expand? Can't I just drop another rax and kill him like that? I unno, I never ever gasless expand when I get toss (random) unless it's forge fe. Aletheia27 and I were actually talking about Terran builds. He was asking about how this compares to the macro-oriented TvP build, the 1 rax gasless fast expand, in which you make a single barracks, then make a 2nd CC before adding more more barracks and taking rax. This build expands more slowly than a 1 rax gasless FE. On January 19 2012 06:34 Marooned wrote: Woah... I thaught I was reading an old thread that had been re-opened for some reason. Isnt this basically the same as this? This opening brings me back bad vibes.. Maybe tosses has forgotten how to deal with it though;p Nice written guide anyway  Yeah, this build has a corresponding liquipedia page, which is somewhat out of date. Once I've completed the segment of this build with the reaper I'll take this information over to that Liquipedia page an update it. Unfortunately, I'm not very familiar with how to do wiki formatting ;_; but i'll give it a try. On January 19 2012 07:39 Inkarnate wrote: Yea this build is super solid, if you only build 1 marauder you can actually just use 2 scvs on gas and get a slightly earlier cc, obviously you don't actually want to go up their ramp when you only build 1 marauder Yeah I've also seen version of this build that expands slower and gets a 3rd marauder. I think it's pretty flexible in terms of "more or fewer gas units, quicker or slower expo". On January 19 2012 11:34 hipsterdontlie wrote: taking metagame and burning it to the ground. nice work. This is a pretty old build. It is not metagame-breaking in any fashion. As an update, I'll be adding a section this weekend on also having a reaper. Thanks to all the commenters who provided replays of the version of this build order that incorporates a reaper! <3 | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
No decent protoss will be caught offguard by 1 rax marine marauder pressure and you're only delaying the expansion quite a bit because you invest in shells and marauders early on. The 'pressure' this kind of build does is really easy to ignore any toss build can basically stop it without losses or even worse kill some units. If you are up against zealot-stalker-stalker or even zealot-stalker-sentry you'll lose one or two units. If you're going with marauder pressure you are much better off going 2 rax, either naked rax + tech lab rax or reactor + tech lab. Yes the expansion will be late but you can actually do some REAL pressure then and you'll be pretty much safe against all-ins. If you're going 1 tech lab only you're basically just hoping to catch the zealot-stalker poke which only happens if P screws up... | ||
acrimoneyius
United States983 Posts
On January 16 2012 13:19 radiantshadow92 wrote: it can be but it all depends what you are going for. in the op's variant he wants to mine the gas ASAP and then take out to get a CC and more barracks. It's also fine to put two in gas if you build the refinery on 13. Usually I mine with 3 if the probe is by the gas and then switch to 2. This build is really good with a reaper after 1 marine, 2 marauders. You can usually stop proxy stargates if your scouting is good, and they can't really do anything about it as you have map control. | ||
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lolpaca
14 Posts
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
On January 19 2012 12:13 Markwerf wrote: ok guide but i think it's a horrible build. No decent protoss will be caught offguard by 1 rax marine marauder pressure and you're only delaying the expansion quite a bit because you invest in shells and marauders early on. The 'pressure' this kind of build does is really easy to ignore any toss build can basically stop it without losses or even worse kill some units. If you are up against zealot-stalker-stalker or even zealot-stalker-sentry you'll lose one or two units. If you're going with marauder pressure you are much better off going 2 rax, either naked rax + tech lab rax or reactor + tech lab. Yes the expansion will be late but you can actually do some REAL pressure then and you'll be pretty much safe against all-ins. If you're going 1 tech lab only you're basically just hoping to catch the zealot-stalker poke which only happens if P screws up... Yes. With MC style 1-gate expo being pretty popular, this seems, at best, like a bad time to be trying this build. The 1gate expo gets a zealot and then chronos a couple of stalkers. Pretty much the Terran is liable to lose all of his poking units (1 marine, 2 marauder) for the loss of only the zealot, and the expo will be behind. | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25562 Posts
On January 24 2012 05:23 marvellosity wrote: Yes. With MC style 1-gate expo being pretty popular, this seems, at best, like a bad time to be trying this build. The 1gate expo gets a zealot and then chronos a couple of stalkers. Pretty much the Terran is liable to lose all of his poking units (1 marine, 2 marauder) for the loss of only the zealot, and the expo will be behind. Actually, should you get caught by surprise by 1 zeal, 2 stalkers in the open, as opposed to sending your scouting scv forward and retreating when it encounters them, you should aim for a stalker, not the zealot. Killing a stalker is more valuable and easier-- it'll only take a few volleys to kill it, and if you stutter step appropriately you won't take much damage from the zealot. | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
On January 24 2012 05:28 Blazinghand wrote: Actually, should you get caught by surprise by 1 zeal, 2 stalkers in the open, as opposed to sending your scouting scv forward and retreating when it encounters them, you should aim for a stalker, not the zealot. Killing a stalker is more valuable and easier-- it'll only take a few volleys to kill it, and if you stutter step appropriately you won't take much damage from the zealot. But if you're not hitting the zealot, then it will fully get all its hits off because it's not slowed, and its DPS is pretty high. In practice when I face this, losing the zealot and killing everything is by far the norm, and if the Terran targets the stalker then he'll probably manage to get a stalker, but that's still not a good deal for 2 marauders. | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25562 Posts
On January 24 2012 05:38 marvellosity wrote: But if you're not hitting the zealot, then it will fully get all its hits off because it's not slowed, and its DPS is pretty high. In practice when I face this, losing the zealot and killing everything is by far the norm, and if the Terran targets the stalker then he'll probably manage to get a stalker, but that's still not a good deal for 2 marauders. Yes, well, given the initial statement you made, which is that protoss only loses one zealot, losing 1 stalker is much preferable for the terran, since a stalker is a ranged support strider, and more valuable. Also, you do your best to mitigate zealot dps via stutter stepping, as you would in any engagement. But all this is irrelevant to the point, because what we're talking about is getting caught on a lee shore in hurricane winds. What is that, you ask? Well, let me share a story with you: I had a friend whose uncle taught sailing, and one of the questions he'd ask during the verbal examination was, "what do you do if you're caught on a lee shore in hurricane force winds?" and it was a real stumper. With winds pushing you into the shore, and with that level of strength to the winds, almost nobody would be able to avoid foundering their vessel on the rocks, sand, etc. Tried as we might, we weren't able to find an answer to his question. He had a huge smile on his face as he said, "what you do is you don't get caught on a lee shore during a hurricane, kiddos" and clapped us on the back. But that's not where this story ends; for although letting your adversary get close to you with 3 gateway unitsis the same as being caught on a lee shore in high winds in that you must avoid it to begin with, it's also the same as being caught on a lee shore in high winds insofar as that it's possible it WILL still happen, even if you sail/play your best, and if you don't have a contingency plan in place for it, your boat/game will get unnecessarily dashed on the rocks / lost. His uncle continued: "but should you get caught on the lee shore, you need to use the kedge anchor and swing your way into a heading away from shoals and shallow water. If it comes down to it, you can use it to tack if you don't have enough room to do so otherwise-- but you'll have to cut'er loose after that, so you have only once chance." He would take us out later in the day to show how this was done. Don't get caught on a lee shore in a hurricane. Send your scv out in front so you can not get caught by 3 gateway units. Should you get caught, you can kill a stalker, and possibly two if you're careful with your stuttering. I've managed to kill two stalkers against a guy who opened 2 gateways and engaged with 2 stalkers, 2 zealots against my composition. The fact that your micro is superior doesn't mean that it's impossible for a terran player to micro as well. Granted, against an opponent who opens with quick gateway units, you should just scout with your scv, avoid the lee shore, and stay at home, but you don't "only kill a zealot" as you originally asserted, nor do you only kill a stalker under all circumstances. Concussive shells are not things to be trifled with. | ||
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justalex
United States122 Posts
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Blazinghand
United States25562 Posts
Also, I'm looking for replays of professional and semiprofessional players using this build (and its variants) to add to the replays section, since you will doubtless learn quite a bit more from them than from me. On January 24 2012 06:15 justalex wrote: my math might be off, but once you get the first 100 gas, I think you only need 1 scv on gas to continually make marauders. This statement, while factually true, I believe misses the point of the 3 scvs on gas then 0 scvs on gas I in particular use. I do this to get enough gas for a tech lab, 2 marauders, and concussive shell, then quickly build up enough minerals to get a fast expansion and produce only marines. Workers go back on gas afterwards, but for a brief period of time I produce marines out of a tech lab barracks. However, if you would like to produce additional marauders beyond the first two, that is entirely viable and probably safer against ground attacks, but will delay your natural and make you more vulnerable to void ray aggression. Alright, guys! Good news. Here's a pro replay from Kas at IEM Kiev: http://drop.sc/97179 + Show Spoiler + In this game, Kas cuts the first marine and goes for constant marauder pressure against a nexus-first opening from White-Ra, killing 7 workers and 3 zealots but overcomitting and losing his marauders. He comes out of it economically slightly ahead, but has to make bunkers after losing some marauders. I think this is a good example of how this type of early concussive pressure can be used against unusually greedy Protoss play. | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25562 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + Okay, so he actually loses this. But it's still an example of the build in use. Kas skips the first marine and makes two quick marauders, then expos  He takes map control, but HerO opens with a 3 gate, crushing his front and abusing a questionable barracks placement, eventually overwhelming him. HerO's a great player and reacted with a very strong BO counter. It wasn't unwinnable but these things together with the rax placement eventually overwhelmed him. I think this may be Kas' go-to TvP build on Tal'Darim Altar, due to the architecture of the natural. I'll keep an eye on his stream to see if I can find anything else from him, or maybe see if some of the many tournaments he's in have released replays. | ||
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DoctorFunk
160 Posts
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DaemonX
545 Posts
2 rax has much more dangerous pressure on the protoss with the ability to out-right kill a protoss who makes a mistake, ability to deny the poke, and a super safe expo. | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25562 Posts
On February 20 2012 13:11 DaemonX wrote: Great guide as always Blaze, but I immediately have to ask what this build gives that modern 2-rax concussive pressure doesn't do better? 2 rax has much more dangerous pressure on the protoss with the ability to out-right kill a protoss who makes a mistake, ability to deny the poke, and a super safe expo. This build expands more quickly, at the cost of being more vulnerable to certain all-ins and being able to put on less pressure. BO updated with information on Reapers and Kas' Variation inline. Q&A Updated. | ||
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