EPT[G] TvP 1 Rax Concussive FE - Page 2
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Gool
Argentina204 Posts
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On January 16 2012 13:29 VanGooL wrote: 16 nexus gets 2 z 1 s just in time, pull 2-3 probes and thats it, and then you are behind. I dont think it is good against that opening at all. I disagree strongly. In my experience, Nexus First with an immediate gateway followup and chrono on all its units has its first zealot out at 4:10 and its second zealot out at 4:40, with its first stalker completing at about 5:00 with some healthy chrono boost. Your first marauder will be done at 3:55 and your second one will be complete at 4:25 (this is about when concussive shell finishes as well). There's no need to wait for the second marauder-- just walk to his nexus with your first maruader, marine, and scv as concussive shell finishes and have a kiting party. Assuming you put some serious effort into micro and/or slap down a bunker, you can cause some non-trivial damage against a nexus first. It won't win you the game, but you won't find yourself far behind. | ||
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Mobius_1
United Kingdom2763 Posts
But given the prevalence of 1base Protoss plays at my low level, what do you suggest as a followup after scouting no expo? In your experience is it safe to try to hold 4-gates with bunkers on low ground or is it a wiser idea to retreat up ramp until Medivacs/enough units/attack repelled? | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On January 16 2012 13:51 Mobius_1 wrote: Thanks for the guide! I've always done the 2rax for its aggressive potential early but often felt the economy is insufficient midgame while the 1rax gasless FE feels scary since I'm not MKP. But given the prevalence of 1base Protoss plays at my low level, what do you suggest as a followup after scouting no expo? In your experience is it safe to try to hold 4-gates with bunkers on low ground or is it a wiser idea to retreat up ramp until Medivacs/enough units/attack repelled? If your opponent has no expansion, and you scouted 1 gas with saved chrono-boost before and standard gateway timing, that means he's 4-gating you. As soon as your CC finishes, lift it (don't wait to turn it into an OC) and fly it indoors. It should finish right around when his warpgates are finishing. Build bunkers on the high ground. On maps with a ramped nat (antiga, shakuras, etc) or maps WITHOUT a ramped main (tal'darim) you should stay at your nat and build bunkers there instead. | ||
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Azzur
Australia6253 Posts
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statikg
Canada930 Posts
On January 16 2012 14:04 Azzur wrote: Great guide! I noticed this opening used alot in the past in GSL but has since fallen out of favour. What are the reasons for this? Cons: Difficult to do more damage then you lose in economy vs a standard 1rax FE. Good toss typically just pulls the probes at his natural and fights or stays at the top of his ramp until he can easily crush your units with minimal no losses. Auto lose vs void ray all-in Pros: Forces your opponent to play as if you might be doing something more aggressive (makes up for some economy loss perhaps) If you can avoid showing your tech lab then you can get a scouting stalker. Can get stim going faster - I think this is pretty helpful if your doing 3rax and they go for a quick 6gate. To directly answer your question I would guess that pros were having trouble doing any damage against strong scouting opponents and the void ray all-in was more popular at that time then it is now. | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On January 16 2012 14:14 statikg wrote: Cons: Difficult to do more damage then you lose in economy vs a standard 1rax FE. Good toss typically just pulls the probes at his natural and fights or stays at the top of his ramp until he can easily crush your units with minimal no losses. Auto lose vs void ray all-in Pros: Forces your opponent to play as if you might be doing something more aggressive (makes up for some economy loss perhaps) If you can avoid showing your tech lab then you can get a scouting stalker. Can get stim going faster - I think this is pretty helpful if your doing 3rax and they go for a quick 6gate. To directly answer your question I would guess that pros were having trouble doing any damage against strong scouting opponents and the void ray all-in was more popular at that time then it is now. This is basically correct. Also, during that period of time it was replaced by a more aggressive version of the build, a 1 rax stim attack-- you'd hit using a stim timing with 4 marauders, and kite heavily using your superior speed and DPS as opposed to using concussive shell. This 1 rax marauder stim pressure was no longer an option following the stim time nerf. | ||
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Avril_Lavigne
United States446 Posts
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On January 16 2012 14:33 Avril_Lavigne wrote: This build is pretty much completely helpless against voidray all ins, you don't have the marine count to deal with it so I've stopped using this build and started to go for different openings. That is an accurate description of one of the difficulties with this build. This is clearly outlined more than once in the guide, but I thank you for your input regardless. | ||
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RaE21
United States260 Posts
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Aletheia27
United States267 Posts
Also, is this build simply worse than a gasless FE if toss is going for an expand that doesn't try to assert map control? | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On January 17 2012 06:45 Aletheia27 wrote: Just curious, against a nexus first build, how do you micro against min stacked probe pulls? Don't walk into the mineral line. On January 17 2012 06:45 Aletheia27 wrote: Also, is this build simply worse than a gasless FE if toss is going for an expand that doesn't try to assert map control? This build gets a quicker stimpack, and of course a quicker concussive shell. But against a protoss who FEs then doesn't do a scouting poke, yes, you might as well 1 rax gasless-- but a protoss would always scouting poke vs 1 rax gasless, the only reason he wouldn't would be that he spotted this build. That a protoss wouldn't assert map control against 1 rax gasless is unlikely. Also, if the protoss doesn't assert map control, well, that's a good result of this build! | ||
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DawN883
Sweden558 Posts
 ^^ | ||
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Louis8k8
Canada285 Posts
"1 zealot defending something dumb". It's very common diamond and lower. Toss either forget or don't quite grasp the importance of having both zealot and stalker. The scv baiting FF and then pick off stalker is great. But those are some nice free crippling aggression if toss cuts units. In TvP, I would kill pylon, move 2 marauder to the side of the ramp and marine bottom of ramp and scv up to give vision for the marauders. Because the marauders aren't below the ramp but to the side, that zealot isn't a problem at all. I put the marine at ramp for zealot fodder. With scv sight, Try and get that stalker. If it backs out, get the sentry. If the sentry backs out, you at least have the free zealot. Then I'd sac my marine (if still alive) by marching in and scouting for robo. Back out with 2 marauders. Lose 1 marine and 1 scv as a standard trade. | ||
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Louis8k8
Canada285 Posts
On January 17 2012 06:57 Blazinghand wrote: Don't walk into the mineral line. This build gets a quicker stimpack, and of course a quicker concussive shell. But against a protoss who FEs then doesn't do a scouting poke, yes, you might as well 1 rax gasless-- but a protoss would always scouting poke vs 1 rax gasless, the only reason he wouldn't would be that he spotted this build. That a protoss wouldn't assert map control against 1 rax gasless is unlikely. Also, if the protoss doesn't assert map control, well, that's a good result of this build! Gaseless FE? As in 1 gate gasless expand? Can't I just drop another rax and kill him like that? I unno, I never ever gasless expand when I get toss (random) unless it's forge fe. | ||
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Marooned
Norway161 Posts
this? This opening brings me back bad vibes.. Maybe tosses has forgotten how to deal with it though;p Nice written guide anyway | ||
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architecture
United States643 Posts
There is basically no reason to ever do this build since it only gives an expected positive return against 1-2 builds, but the return is minor. | ||
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awakenx
United States341 Posts
I have been looking for something EXACTLY like this for ages. <3 you bro | ||
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oOOoOphidian
United States1402 Posts
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goal 888
167 Posts
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