|
Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
Guide: TvP 1 Rax Concussive FE
Map Control for the Thinking Man
Table of Contents >Introduction >Build Order >Variations and Transitions >Execution >Q&A >Replays, VoDs, and Write-ups >Acknowledgements
This build is the 1 Rax Concussive FE -- an FE that takes a gas and makes Marauders instead of only making Marines. It is distinguished by the ability to intercept and destroy the standard Protoss 1 gate FE scouting poke, and vulnerability to Void Ray all-ins. Its strength comes from the early use of Concussive Shells in low-unit-count situations that happen in the first few minutes of a game.
Introduction [Top]
Basically, this opener consists of rushing out a small number of Marauders with concussive shells, and taking away the traditional map control a 1 gate FE Protoss can assert against a 1 Rax FE Terran. There are many 1 Rax Marauder FEs-- this one doesn't cut SCVs, and only mines 125 gas. It is the fastest-expanding, greediest Marauder FE. I think it's the best :D
This version pushes out with 1 Marine, 2 Marauders.
After you've gotten your Marauders onto the field, you use them to try to pick off scouting gateway units, deny xel-naga towers, and generally make the Protoss player's life unpleasant until his warpgate finishes. This build is vulnerable to any sort of 1-base play from the Protoss, especially Void Ray all-ins.
Build Order [Top]
10 Supply Depot 12 Barracks 13 Refinery
SCV scout after you begin the refinery. The goal of your SCV scout is to identify 1-basing play or "Safe Expansions".
Variation: Kas+ Show Spoiler [How Kas Does It] +Kas uses this build rather extensively on Tal'Darim Altar. His Barracks is placed in the natural, and he makes 2 marauders with shells (no initial marine), and pressures with those, making his expansion at his natural and never stopping mining gas. He adds on more rax and gets a very fast stimpack. 16 Marine 17 Orbital Command 17 Supply Depot 17 Tech Lab (Start when Marine Completes)
Chase his probe out with your lone Marine. This is fairly difficult! He'll probably see your tech lab and know what you're up to, but in the off chance he doesn't, great hilarity may ensue.
17 Marauder, Concussive Shells
Your Orbital Command and Tech Lab will finish at the same time. Call down a mule, start your Marauder, start your Concussive Shells.
Variation: Reaper+ Show Spoiler [This Build with a Reaper] +Do not take workers off gas-- instead, after your 2nd Marauder, make a reaper. This will cause you to bank up for your CC. During your pressure, use the reaper to either get all up in his business or to help against zealots/sentries. It's hilarious how many probes you can get. 19 Take your workers off gas, banking 25 for your next Marauder. 21 Marauder
If your opponent made a Zealot before Stalker, it would be prudent to wait for your 2nd Marauder before getting out on the map. If he did not, moving out with a just your Marine and your first Marauder will be sufficient. Do so now. Rendezvous with your scouting SCV and see what he's up to. SCV goes in everywhere first. Primary goal is preserving your Marauders.
23 Command Center
Brutally fast. Low-ground this like a boss-- your Concussive Marauders will keep his pokes away.
24 Supply Depot 25 Begin constant Marine production from Rax
If your opponent made a Zealot before Stalker, this is when you move out. Rendezvous with your scouting SCV and see what he's up to. SCV goes in everywhere first. Primary goal is preserving your Marauders.
Variations and Transitions [Top] Variations: The two popular Variations for this build are Kas' Variations (marauder heavy, typically used on TDA) and the reaper variation. Both are included in the build order above in spoilers.
Transitions: Normally: Add two more Rax, start mining gas again, make Marines and get stimpack and an engineering bay. Your play is basically standard from then on out, except you already have concussive shell, you have fewer Marines, and your stimpack is earlier.
If you did some damage: same thing, man. Just play standard and be aggressive or sneak in an extra expo or something. Actually yeah, if you somehow did a ton of damage with your concussive pressure (unlikely, but possible), just take a quicker third.
If you dun goofed: If you're in the middle of losing a concussive pressure fight, start your bunkers immediately. If you wait until the end of the fight, a canny Protoss will be knocking on your door before you can lock it.
If you don't want to play standard: Hey, to each his own. I Included a Mech transition replay but I'm honestly terrible at TvP Mech. I'm sure someone else could do it better. It's not very efficient since the Concussive Shells won't help you, but there are worse ways to transition I'm sure.
Execution [Top] Move across the map with your units-- 1 Marine, 1 Marauder, and your scouting SCV. Your 2nd Marauder can catch up, but you may also wait for it if you wish. Your goal is to engage scouting Protoss units in small-numbers battles and pick them off with concussive shell. This is micro-intensive. If your adversary didn't go Zealot first, you can walk into his base and kill Stalker and maybe a couple of probes, then go home intact, maybe less the Marine and the SCV. Remember, a 1 hp Marauder still shoots at full strength from inside your bunker at home, so keep those units alive!
Remember, Forcefields are OP, so if you want to walk up a ramp into his main or nat, send in your scout SCV first to make sure it's safe. If you still get FFed in half, try to keep your uphill Marauder close to the downhill Marauder so they can support each other until the uphill Maruader dies horribly.
Most Protoss players will build a Zealot though, so I'll talk about those situations here.
15 Nexus Kite some workers and Zealots, get your free kills, and get out. You won't be able to bring down the nexus with 1 Rax of production, I'm afraid-- but you can punish him bad enough to be competitive or even ahead economically. Begin retreating early, as probes move slightly faster than Marauders so you may need some wiggle room.
1 Gate FE Defense (Zealot then Stalker then Stalker) This is the worst-case scenario, because these 3 gateway units can engage you on the open field and chase you home. It is a micro battle, but it will be hard-- this happens when the rush distance is long and you ran into his base for some reason, or Protoss chronoed out a 2nd Stalker. To micro, the Protoss player will grab all his units and right-click a Marauder.
You will have to do much, much more.
If you see these three units before engagement: Assuming your SCV is in front, when you see this 3-unit composition (likely chrono boosted out due to seeing your tech lab opening), go home. The fight is very difficult, and even if you win, you'll lose a Marauder and the other will be wounded, and you will have great difficulty defending your expo.
If you get surprised and have to engage: Do not run away, you are slower and you can't concuss all three of his units. Use your SCV to attack the Zealot. Stutter step your Marauders to mitigate Zealot damage and focus down the first Stalker. The Protoss player is trying to absorb hits with the Zealot and kill your Marauders with the Stalker. Be careful with your Marine, he dies very easily to Zealot stabs-- if he goes down your DPS drops considerably. If you're stuttering all your ranged units together, stutter them in time to the Marauder cooldown. Start a bunker at home as well, you'll need it.
1 Gate FE defense (Zealot then Stalker then Sentry) With these 3 units, the Protoss doesn't move down his ramp. That's fine, let him hang out up there. Kill his low-ground pylon (if he has one), then go home. Don't go up the ramp. If he's willing to cower in his main, that's fine. You've low-grounded your CC, and he's not poking out to scout you.
1 Gate FE Scouting Poke What great luck! Your adversary is poking with a Zealot and a lone Stalker, maybe also with his scouting probe. He must not have realized what you're doing. Stutter step and melt his Stalker, then kite his Zealot. After you do so, poke his natural to let him know you're a baller, then hang out on the map a bit before going home. Good work.
Safe Expansion What? He 2 gate Roboed or 3 Gate Expoed? What are you running around on the map for? Cower in your base and make bunkers-- he's got way more infrastructure than you. When you scout anything but a 1 Gate FE, don't even try to take map control.
Something dumb with no units Ok, if you see him like rushing a bunch of gateways with just a Zealot to defend or something dumb, bunker rush him to punish him. This will happen very rarely but it's worth noting.
--Caveats-- 1) This build cannot move out onto the map against any “Safe Expand”ing Protoss-- you don't have enough units. Make some bunkers and pretend you're a 1 Rax FE. If you move out you will lose.
2) This build has difficulty. to any sort of Void Ray all-in. However, Protoss will not automatically react with VR all-in upon scouting a tech lab after first Marine, due to the possibility of a tech first 2 Rax or a 3 Rax Stim all-in. I have been advised that adding on additional rax and going for combat shields will give you a solid opportunity to defend 1-base Void Ray attacks.
3) This is basically the greediest build, since you cut an early Marine to tech up to Marauders, and you take a very quick gas. It would usually be safer to just get a 2nd Rax instead of all that gas and just defend. However you are probably a baller like me and do this instead.
Q&A [Top] Q: But given the prevalence of 1base Protoss plays at my low level, what do you suggest as a followup after scouting no expo? In your experience is it safe to try to hold 4-gates with bunkers on low ground or is it a wiser idea to retreat up ramp until Medivacs/enough units/attack repelled? A: If your opponent has no expansion, and you scouted 1 gas with saved chrono-boost before and standard gateway timing, that means he's 4-gating you. As soon as your CC finishes, lift it (don't wait to turn it into an OC) and fly it indoors. It should finish right around when his warpgates are finishing. Build bunkers on the high ground. On maps with a ramped nat (antiga, shakuras, etc) or maps WITHOUT a ramped main (tal'darim) you should stay at your nat and build bunkers there instead.
Q: Great guide! I noticed this opening used alot in the past in GSL but has since fallen out of favour. What are the reasons for this? A (statikg): To directly answer your question I would guess that pros were having trouble doing any damage against strong scouting opponents and the void ray all-in was more popular at that time then it is now. A (Blazinghand): This is basically correct. Also, during that period of time it was replaced by a more aggressive version of the build, a 1 rax stim attack-- you'd hit using a stim timing with 4 marauders, and kite heavily using your superior speed and DPS as opposed to using concussive shell. This 1 rax marauder stim pressure was no longer an option following the stim time nerf.
Q: Just curious, against a nexus first build, how do you micro against min stacked probe pulls? A: Don't walk into the mineral line.
Q: Also, is this build simply worse than a gasless FE if toss is going for an expand that doesn't try to assert map control? A: This build gets a quicker stimpack, and of course a quicker concussive shell. But against a protoss who FEs then doesn't do a scouting poke, yes, you might as well 1 rax gasless-- but a protoss would always scouting poke vs 1 rax gasless, the only reason he wouldn't would be that he spotted this build. That a protoss wouldn't assert map control against 1 rax gasless is unlikely.
Also, if the protoss doesn't assert map control, well, that's a good result of this build!
Q: Yea this build is super solid, if you only build 1 marauder you can actually just use 2 scvs on gas and get a slightly earlier cc, obviously you don't actually want to go up their ramp when you only build 1 marauder A: Yeah I've also seen version of this build that expands slower and gets a 3rd marauder. I think it's pretty flexible in terms of "more or fewer gas units, quicker or slower expo".
Q: Great guide as always Blaze, but I immediately have to ask what this build gives that modern 2-rax concussive pressure doesn't do better? A: This build expands more quickly, at the cost of being more vulnerable to certain all-ins and being able to put on less pressure.
Replays, VoDs, and Write-ups [Top] Amateur Replays Blazinghand's Replay Pack: http://drop.sc/packs/439 Blazinghand's Replay Links:+ Show Spoiler + Pro Replays: Kas vs WhiteRa at IEM Kiev: http://drop.sc/97179 + Show Spoiler [Description] +In this game, Kas cuts the first marine and goes for constant marauder pressure against a nexus-first opening from White-Ra, killing 7 workers and 3 zealots but overcomitting and losing his marauders. He comes out of it economically slightly ahead, but has to make bunkers after losing some marauders. I think this is a good example of how this type of early concussive pressure can be used against unusually greedy Protoss play. Pro VoD from Kas in NASTL against HerO: http://www.twitch.tv/nasltv/b/309105469?t=2100 + Show Spoiler +Okay, so he actually loses this. But it's still an example of the build in use. Kas skips the first marine and makes two quick marauders, then expos He takes map control, but HerO opens with a 3 gate, crushing his front and abusing a questionable barracks placement, eventually overwhelming him. HerO's a great player and reacted with a very strong BO counter. It wasn't unwinnable but these things together with the rax placement eventually overwhelmed him.
Acknowledgements [Top]
I'd like to thank Lucien for helping me iron out this build, spamming practice games with me and playing in YABOT. Thanks to NrGMonk for suggesting this topic for my next guide. I'd also like to thank wo1fwood for his article on TL BBCode (link)-- his knowledge helped me format this post.
Hope you enjoy the build!
|
Solid BO, this is a pretty good opener. Terrans and Protosses stay on your toes and l2 micro!
|
I like this, good analysis of when it should work and when not, and handy little guides for how to micro in every situation conceivable.
|
Good guide, i appreciate your advises about how to react depending on protoss opening. However, i think this build is best suited for maps like metalopolis or xel naga, where your marauders may help to defend your natural because stalkers won't be able to run around and snip vcs. And indeed, it's pretty bad vs a variety of all-in but one of the best vs expanding protoss.
|
I did this a long time but once I hit master, I felt, that I need to be more greedy and that gasless 1 rax FE into 4 rax is much better since I can rely on my marine stutter. However, I really prefer 1 rax marauder over 2 rax on 2 playerspot maps.
|
Awesome I was just looking for this, thanks!
|
ctrl+f "reaper" not found
|
Haha, iamke when do you get the reaper? After second marauder to help poke up?
@Blazinghand nice guide to this basic opener Was one of my first TvP openers, sadly it's gone a bit out of style, but still good
|
Q: Blazinghand, How did you get so handsome?
|
Wow, really nice guide, thanks for making!
One thing
It is distinguished by the ability to intercept and destroy the standard Protoss 1 gate FE scouting poke, and vulnerability to Void Ray all-ins.
I think you should clarify this, if you read it without the comma it sounds like you are saying it can stop the scouting poke AND is weak to void ray all-ins (I hope that isn't so?)
|
On January 16 2012 12:31 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Wow, really nice guide, thanks for making! One thing Show nested quote +It is distinguished by the ability to intercept and destroy the standard Protoss 1 gate FE scouting poke, and vulnerability to Void Ray all-ins. I think you should clarify this, if you read it without the comma it sounds like you are saying it can stop the scouting poke AND is weak to void ray all-ins (I hope that isn't so?)
I think that's what he intended, later on he repeats that the build is weak against 1 base protoss, especially void ray all ins.
|
Nice build! I've been enjoying this kind of opening quite a bit lately, it's actually a really old one. I love the ability to be confident in the early game ^.^
|
You can hold voidray all ins if you go up to 4 rax total and get combat shields after shell.
|
Some guy did this to me the other day, with a reaper in the back of my base. But it was at plat / diamond level on NA. requires good control, but the guy did it quite well and i got to much of a deficit. *sigh* another reason to hate conc shells.
|
i do the reaper variant and it works ok but i always lose the units and die to an all in TT. this builds seems solid though,
|
Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
Alright, I've read the various comments about the possibility of holding VR all-ins and have amended my caveat regarding those to reflect that. The new language indicates that with production of marines and addition of barracks it is possible to defend against this PvT 1 base all-in. Thanks for all the help, everyone.
EDIT: Also, it seems there is a popular and effective variant of this build that includes a reaper jumping up into the back of the protoss main at the same time. I will be adding in a "with reaper" section and replays for this, but this will take a little time.
|
I've been doing a variation of this actually.
I go normal 12 barracks - 13 gas. I pump two marines out of the barracks and mine 125 gas total. 50 goes to concussive, 50 to marauders, 25 to the tech lab. I then pull guys of gas and expand as I pressure, throw down two more racks, and then put guys back on gas. I move out as soon as the marauder pops, as concussive finishes quickly afterwards, while rallying one more marauder. It works ok against greedy protosses, but it's a tough micro battle if he has 2 stalkers.
Is it beneficial to get the marauder out faster than what I do? I'm only plat and really suck against protoss, its easily my worst matchup.
|
i have a question if you do 13rax 15 refinery then i feel like the build is alot smoother. w.e. solid guide thanks for posting.
|
On January 16 2012 12:50 Blazinghand wrote: Alright, I've read the various comments about the possibility of holding VR all-ins and have amended my caveat regarding those to reflect that. The new language indicates that with production of marines and addition of barracks it is possible to defend against this PvT 1 base all-in. Thanks for all the help, everyone.
EDIT: Also, it seems there is a popular and effective variant of this build that includes a reaper jumping up into the back of the protoss main at the same time. I will be adding in a "with reaper" section and replays for this, but this will take a little time.
Reapers yesss
On January 16 2012 12:42 Subztance wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2012 12:31 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Wow, really nice guide, thanks for making! One thing It is distinguished by the ability to intercept and destroy the standard Protoss 1 gate FE scouting poke, and vulnerability to Void Ray all-ins. I think you should clarify this, if you read it without the comma it sounds like you are saying it can stop the scouting poke AND is weak to void ray all-ins (I hope that isn't so?) I think that's what he intended, later on he repeats that the build is weak against 1 base protoss, especially void ray all ins.
Oh haha I see that now xD Thanks!
|
On January 16 2012 13:03 Picklebread wrote: i have a question if you do 13rax 15 refinery then i feel like the build is alot smoother. w.e. solid guide thanks for posting.
it can be but it all depends what you are going for. in the op's variant he wants to mine the gas ASAP and then take out to get a CC and more barracks.
|
16 nexus gets 2 z 1 s just in time, pull 2-3 probes and thats it, and then you are behind. I dont think it is good against that opening at all.
|
Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
On January 16 2012 13:29 VanGooL wrote: 16 nexus gets 2 z 1 s just in time, pull 2-3 probes and thats it, and then you are behind. I dont think it is good against that opening at all.
I disagree strongly. In my experience, Nexus First with an immediate gateway followup and chrono on all its units has its first zealot out at 4:10 and its second zealot out at 4:40, with its first stalker completing at about 5:00 with some healthy chrono boost. Your first marauder will be done at 3:55 and your second one will be complete at 4:25 (this is about when concussive shell finishes as well).
There's no need to wait for the second marauder-- just walk to his nexus with your first maruader, marine, and scv as concussive shell finishes and have a kiting party. Assuming you put some serious effort into micro and/or slap down a bunker, you can cause some non-trivial damage against a nexus first. It won't win you the game, but you won't find yourself far behind.
|
Thanks for the guide! I've always done the 2rax for its aggressive potential early but often felt the economy is insufficient midgame while the 1rax gasless FE feels scary since I'm not MKP.
But given the prevalence of 1base Protoss plays at my low level, what do you suggest as a followup after scouting no expo? In your experience is it safe to try to hold 4-gates with bunkers on low ground or is it a wiser idea to retreat up ramp until Medivacs/enough units/attack repelled?
|
Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
On January 16 2012 13:51 Mobius_1 wrote: Thanks for the guide! I've always done the 2rax for its aggressive potential early but often felt the economy is insufficient midgame while the 1rax gasless FE feels scary since I'm not MKP.
But given the prevalence of 1base Protoss plays at my low level, what do you suggest as a followup after scouting no expo? In your experience is it safe to try to hold 4-gates with bunkers on low ground or is it a wiser idea to retreat up ramp until Medivacs/enough units/attack repelled?
If your opponent has no expansion, and you scouted 1 gas with saved chrono-boost before and standard gateway timing, that means he's 4-gating you. As soon as your CC finishes, lift it (don't wait to turn it into an OC) and fly it indoors. It should finish right around when his warpgates are finishing. Build bunkers on the high ground. On maps with a ramped nat (antiga, shakuras, etc) or maps WITHOUT a ramped main (tal'darim) you should stay at your nat and build bunkers there instead.
|
Great guide! I noticed this opening used alot in the past in GSL but has since fallen out of favour. What are the reasons for this?
|
On January 16 2012 14:04 Azzur wrote: Great guide! I noticed this opening used alot in the past in GSL but has since fallen out of favour. What are the reasons for this?
Cons: Difficult to do more damage then you lose in economy vs a standard 1rax FE. Good toss typically just pulls the probes at his natural and fights or stays at the top of his ramp until he can easily crush your units with minimal no losses.
Auto lose vs void ray all-in
Pros: Forces your opponent to play as if you might be doing something more aggressive (makes up for some economy loss perhaps)
If you can avoid showing your tech lab then you can get a scouting stalker.
Can get stim going faster - I think this is pretty helpful if your doing 3rax and they go for a quick 6gate.
To directly answer your question I would guess that pros were having trouble doing any damage against strong scouting opponents and the void ray all-in was more popular at that time then it is now.
|
Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
On January 16 2012 14:14 statikg wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2012 14:04 Azzur wrote: Great guide! I noticed this opening used alot in the past in GSL but has since fallen out of favour. What are the reasons for this? Cons: Difficult to do more damage then you lose in economy vs a standard 1rax FE. Good toss typically just pulls the probes at his natural and fights or stays at the top of his ramp until he can easily crush your units with minimal no losses. Auto lose vs void ray all-in Pros: Forces your opponent to play as if you might be doing something more aggressive (makes up for some economy loss perhaps) If you can avoid showing your tech lab then you can get a scouting stalker. Can get stim going faster - I think this is pretty helpful if your doing 3rax and they go for a quick 6gate. To directly answer your question I would guess that pros were having trouble doing any damage against strong scouting opponents and the void ray all-in was more popular at that time then it is now.
This is basically correct. Also, during that period of time it was replaced by a more aggressive version of the build, a 1 rax stim attack-- you'd hit using a stim timing with 4 marauders, and kite heavily using your superior speed and DPS as opposed to using concussive shell. This 1 rax marauder stim pressure was no longer an option following the stim time nerf.
|
This build is pretty much completely helpless against voidray all ins, you don't have the marine count to deal with it so I've stopped using this build and started to go for different openings.
|
Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
On January 16 2012 14:33 Avril_Lavigne wrote: This build is pretty much completely helpless against voidray all ins, you don't have the marine count to deal with it so I've stopped using this build and started to go for different openings.
That is an accurate description of one of the difficulties with this build. This is clearly outlined more than once in the guide, but I thank you for your input regardless.
|
very nice guide, covered all the basics for all levels to understand....good job!
|
Just curious, against a nexus first build, how do you micro against min stacked probe pulls?
Also, is this build simply worse than a gasless FE if toss is going for an expand that doesn't try to assert map control?
|
Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
On January 17 2012 06:45 Aletheia27 wrote: Just curious, against a nexus first build, how do you micro against min stacked probe pulls? Don't walk into the mineral line.
On January 17 2012 06:45 Aletheia27 wrote: Also, is this build simply worse than a gasless FE if toss is going for an expand that doesn't try to assert map control?
This build gets a quicker stimpack, and of course a quicker concussive shell. But against a protoss who FEs then doesn't do a scouting poke, yes, you might as well 1 rax gasless-- but a protoss would always scouting poke vs 1 rax gasless, the only reason he wouldn't would be that he spotted this build. That a protoss wouldn't assert map control against 1 rax gasless is unlikely.
Also, if the protoss doesn't assert map control, well, that's a good result of this build!
|
Great build and guide. Gonna test it right away! ^^
|
Gah I used to hate this opening aggression sooooo much as protoss. I think it's great that you noted to check for:
"1 zealot defending something dumb".
It's very common diamond and lower. Toss either forget or don't quite grasp the importance of having both zealot and stalker. The scv baiting FF and then pick off stalker is great. But those are some nice free crippling aggression if toss cuts units.
In TvP, I would kill pylon, move 2 marauder to the side of the ramp and marine bottom of ramp and scv up to give vision for the marauders. Because the marauders aren't below the ramp but to the side, that zealot isn't a problem at all. I put the marine at ramp for zealot fodder. With scv sight, Try and get that stalker. If it backs out, get the sentry. If the sentry backs out, you at least have the free zealot. Then I'd sac my marine (if still alive) by marching in and scouting for robo. Back out with 2 marauders. Lose 1 marine and 1 scv as a standard trade.
|
On January 17 2012 06:57 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2012 06:45 Aletheia27 wrote: Just curious, against a nexus first build, how do you micro against min stacked probe pulls? Don't walk into the mineral line. Show nested quote +On January 17 2012 06:45 Aletheia27 wrote: Also, is this build simply worse than a gasless FE if toss is going for an expand that doesn't try to assert map control? This build gets a quicker stimpack, and of course a quicker concussive shell. But against a protoss who FEs then doesn't do a scouting poke, yes, you might as well 1 rax gasless-- but a protoss would always scouting poke vs 1 rax gasless, the only reason he wouldn't would be that he spotted this build. That a protoss wouldn't assert map control against 1 rax gasless is unlikely. Also, if the protoss doesn't assert map control, well, that's a good result of this build! Gaseless FE? As in 1 gate gasless expand? Can't I just drop another rax and kill him like that? I unno, I never ever gasless expand when I get toss (random) unless it's forge fe.
|
Woah... I thaught I was reading an old thread that had been re-opened for some reason. Isnt this basically the same as this? This opening brings me back bad vibes.. Maybe tosses has forgotten how to deal with it though;p
Nice written guide anyway
|
It is also weak to every other 1 base play, since the marauders delay both marine unit count, production setup, and tech.
There is basically no reason to ever do this build since it only gives an expected positive return against 1-2 builds, but the return is minor.
|
YES
I have been looking for something EXACTLY like this for ages. <3 you bro
|
I'm glad you mention the weakness to void ray all ins and 1 base play, but unfortunately that is enough of a reason for me to never do this style of builds. They are certainly popular, though, but there are safer builds that have similar advantages. Most importantly, I don't think the early map control is worth the risks, as it really doesn't grant you much safety to do anything differently.
|
Playing vs this is very tough. I almost always go 1 gate expo and I have to pull probes most of the time.
|
Yea this build is super solid, if you only build 1 marauder you can actually just use 2 scvs on gas and get a slightly earlier cc, obviously you don't actually want to go up their ramp when you only build 1 marauder
|
This build is okay but I like Bomber's 2rax (2 maurader / 3 marine) push into expand better. Seems just as economical but more safe because you get the second rax faster. It also seems like I kill so many probes every time I do it on small or medium sized maps, for instance even on Shakuras I can build my barracks in front my my natural and still do damage to most protoss builds, while still getting my expansion up much more quickly and safely than what the Protoss can
|
taking metagame and burning it to the ground. nice work.
|
Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
Hi guys! thanks for all the feedback. :D I'll do my best to reply to specific questions and the like.
On January 19 2012 05:57 Louis8k8 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2012 06:57 Blazinghand wrote:On January 17 2012 06:45 Aletheia27 wrote: Just curious, against a nexus first build, how do you micro against min stacked probe pulls? Don't walk into the mineral line. On January 17 2012 06:45 Aletheia27 wrote: Also, is this build simply worse than a gasless FE if toss is going for an expand that doesn't try to assert map control? This build gets a quicker stimpack, and of course a quicker concussive shell. But against a protoss who FEs then doesn't do a scouting poke, yes, you might as well 1 rax gasless-- but a protoss would always scouting poke vs 1 rax gasless, the only reason he wouldn't would be that he spotted this build. That a protoss wouldn't assert map control against 1 rax gasless is unlikely. Also, if the protoss doesn't assert map control, well, that's a good result of this build! Gaseless FE? As in 1 gate gasless expand? Can't I just drop another rax and kill him like that? I unno, I never ever gasless expand when I get toss (random) unless it's forge fe.
Aletheia27 and I were actually talking about Terran builds. He was asking about how this compares to the macro-oriented TvP build, the 1 rax gasless fast expand, in which you make a single barracks, then make a 2nd CC before adding more more barracks and taking rax. This build expands more slowly than a 1 rax gasless FE.
On January 19 2012 06:34 Marooned wrote:Woah... I thaught I was reading an old thread that had been re-opened for some reason. Isnt this basically the same as this? This opening brings me back bad vibes.. Maybe tosses has forgotten how to deal with it though;p Nice written guide anyway
Yeah, this build has a corresponding liquipedia page, which is somewhat out of date. Once I've completed the segment of this build with the reaper I'll take this information over to that Liquipedia page an update it. Unfortunately, I'm not very familiar with how to do wiki formatting ;_; but i'll give it a try.
On January 19 2012 07:39 Inkarnate wrote: Yea this build is super solid, if you only build 1 marauder you can actually just use 2 scvs on gas and get a slightly earlier cc, obviously you don't actually want to go up their ramp when you only build 1 marauder Yeah I've also seen version of this build that expands slower and gets a 3rd marauder. I think it's pretty flexible in terms of "more or fewer gas units, quicker or slower expo".
On January 19 2012 11:34 hipsterdontlie wrote: taking metagame and burning it to the ground. nice work. This is a pretty old build. It is not metagame-breaking in any fashion.
As an update, I'll be adding a section this weekend on also having a reaper. Thanks to all the commenters who provided replays of the version of this build order that incorporates a reaper! <3
|
ok guide but i think it's a horrible build. No decent protoss will be caught offguard by 1 rax marine marauder pressure and you're only delaying the expansion quite a bit because you invest in shells and marauders early on. The 'pressure' this kind of build does is really easy to ignore any toss build can basically stop it without losses or even worse kill some units. If you are up against zealot-stalker-stalker or even zealot-stalker-sentry you'll lose one or two units. If you're going with marauder pressure you are much better off going 2 rax, either naked rax + tech lab rax or reactor + tech lab. Yes the expansion will be late but you can actually do some REAL pressure then and you'll be pretty much safe against all-ins. If you're going 1 tech lab only you're basically just hoping to catch the zealot-stalker poke which only happens if P screws up...
|
On January 16 2012 13:19 radiantshadow92 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2012 13:03 Picklebread wrote: i have a question if you do 13rax 15 refinery then i feel like the build is alot smoother. w.e. solid guide thanks for posting. it can be but it all depends what you are going for. in the op's variant he wants to mine the gas ASAP and then take out to get a CC and more barracks.
It's also fine to put two in gas if you build the refinery on 13. Usually I mine with 3 if the probe is by the gas and then switch to 2.
This build is really good with a reaper after 1 marine, 2 marauders. You can usually stop proxy stargates if your scouting is good, and they can't really do anything about it as you have map control.
|
Really good guide, nice and thorough! Helped me get a lot more confident early game against toss. Any chance you could talk through the pros and cons of adding another barracks before expanding, with or without a reactor? That's what I normally do because it really allows me to punish him (sometimes even end the game) if he lets me get up the ramp, but I appreciate it sets the expansion back a fair bit
|
United Kingdom35817 Posts
On January 19 2012 12:13 Markwerf wrote: ok guide but i think it's a horrible build. No decent protoss will be caught offguard by 1 rax marine marauder pressure and you're only delaying the expansion quite a bit because you invest in shells and marauders early on. The 'pressure' this kind of build does is really easy to ignore any toss build can basically stop it without losses or even worse kill some units. If you are up against zealot-stalker-stalker or even zealot-stalker-sentry you'll lose one or two units. If you're going with marauder pressure you are much better off going 2 rax, either naked rax + tech lab rax or reactor + tech lab. Yes the expansion will be late but you can actually do some REAL pressure then and you'll be pretty much safe against all-ins. If you're going 1 tech lab only you're basically just hoping to catch the zealot-stalker poke which only happens if P screws up...
Yes. With MC style 1-gate expo being pretty popular, this seems, at best, like a bad time to be trying this build. The 1gate expo gets a zealot and then chronos a couple of stalkers. Pretty much the Terran is liable to lose all of his poking units (1 marine, 2 marauder) for the loss of only the zealot, and the expo will be behind.
|
Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
On January 24 2012 05:23 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2012 12:13 Markwerf wrote: ok guide but i think it's a horrible build. No decent protoss will be caught offguard by 1 rax marine marauder pressure and you're only delaying the expansion quite a bit because you invest in shells and marauders early on. The 'pressure' this kind of build does is really easy to ignore any toss build can basically stop it without losses or even worse kill some units. If you are up against zealot-stalker-stalker or even zealot-stalker-sentry you'll lose one or two units. If you're going with marauder pressure you are much better off going 2 rax, either naked rax + tech lab rax or reactor + tech lab. Yes the expansion will be late but you can actually do some REAL pressure then and you'll be pretty much safe against all-ins. If you're going 1 tech lab only you're basically just hoping to catch the zealot-stalker poke which only happens if P screws up...
Yes. With MC style 1-gate expo being pretty popular, this seems, at best, like a bad time to be trying this build. The 1gate expo gets a zealot and then chronos a couple of stalkers. Pretty much the Terran is liable to lose all of his poking units (1 marine, 2 marauder) for the loss of only the zealot, and the expo will be behind.
Actually, should you get caught by surprise by 1 zeal, 2 stalkers in the open, as opposed to sending your scouting scv forward and retreating when it encounters them, you should aim for a stalker, not the zealot. Killing a stalker is more valuable and easier-- it'll only take a few volleys to kill it, and if you stutter step appropriately you won't take much damage from the zealot.
|
United Kingdom35817 Posts
On January 24 2012 05:28 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2012 05:23 marvellosity wrote:On January 19 2012 12:13 Markwerf wrote: ok guide but i think it's a horrible build. No decent protoss will be caught offguard by 1 rax marine marauder pressure and you're only delaying the expansion quite a bit because you invest in shells and marauders early on. The 'pressure' this kind of build does is really easy to ignore any toss build can basically stop it without losses or even worse kill some units. If you are up against zealot-stalker-stalker or even zealot-stalker-sentry you'll lose one or two units. If you're going with marauder pressure you are much better off going 2 rax, either naked rax + tech lab rax or reactor + tech lab. Yes the expansion will be late but you can actually do some REAL pressure then and you'll be pretty much safe against all-ins. If you're going 1 tech lab only you're basically just hoping to catch the zealot-stalker poke which only happens if P screws up...
Yes. With MC style 1-gate expo being pretty popular, this seems, at best, like a bad time to be trying this build. The 1gate expo gets a zealot and then chronos a couple of stalkers. Pretty much the Terran is liable to lose all of his poking units (1 marine, 2 marauder) for the loss of only the zealot, and the expo will be behind. Actually, should you get caught by surprise by 1 zeal, 2 stalkers in the open, as opposed to sending your scouting scv forward and retreating when it encounters them, you should aim for a stalker, not the zealot. Killing a stalker is more valuable and easier-- it'll only take a few volleys to kill it, and if you stutter step appropriately you won't take much damage from the zealot.
But if you're not hitting the zealot, then it will fully get all its hits off because it's not slowed, and its DPS is pretty high. In practice when I face this, losing the zealot and killing everything is by far the norm, and if the Terran targets the stalker then he'll probably manage to get a stalker, but that's still not a good deal for 2 marauders.
|
Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
On January 24 2012 05:38 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2012 05:28 Blazinghand wrote:On January 24 2012 05:23 marvellosity wrote:On January 19 2012 12:13 Markwerf wrote: ok guide but i think it's a horrible build. No decent protoss will be caught offguard by 1 rax marine marauder pressure and you're only delaying the expansion quite a bit because you invest in shells and marauders early on. The 'pressure' this kind of build does is really easy to ignore any toss build can basically stop it without losses or even worse kill some units. If you are up against zealot-stalker-stalker or even zealot-stalker-sentry you'll lose one or two units. If you're going with marauder pressure you are much better off going 2 rax, either naked rax + tech lab rax or reactor + tech lab. Yes the expansion will be late but you can actually do some REAL pressure then and you'll be pretty much safe against all-ins. If you're going 1 tech lab only you're basically just hoping to catch the zealot-stalker poke which only happens if P screws up...
Yes. With MC style 1-gate expo being pretty popular, this seems, at best, like a bad time to be trying this build. The 1gate expo gets a zealot and then chronos a couple of stalkers. Pretty much the Terran is liable to lose all of his poking units (1 marine, 2 marauder) for the loss of only the zealot, and the expo will be behind. Actually, should you get caught by surprise by 1 zeal, 2 stalkers in the open, as opposed to sending your scouting scv forward and retreating when it encounters them, you should aim for a stalker, not the zealot. Killing a stalker is more valuable and easier-- it'll only take a few volleys to kill it, and if you stutter step appropriately you won't take much damage from the zealot. But if you're not hitting the zealot, then it will fully get all its hits off because it's not slowed, and its DPS is pretty high. In practice when I face this, losing the zealot and killing everything is by far the norm, and if the Terran targets the stalker then he'll probably manage to get a stalker, but that's still not a good deal for 2 marauders. Yes, well, given the initial statement you made, which is that protoss only loses one zealot, losing 1 stalker is much preferable for the terran, since a stalker is a ranged support strider, and more valuable. Also, you do your best to mitigate zealot dps via stutter stepping, as you would in any engagement. But all this is irrelevant to the point, because what we're talking about is getting caught on a lee shore in hurricane winds.
What is that, you ask? Well, let me share a story with you:
I had a friend whose uncle taught sailing, and one of the questions he'd ask during the verbal examination was, "what do you do if you're caught on a lee shore in hurricane force winds?" and it was a real stumper. With winds pushing you into the shore, and with that level of strength to the winds, almost nobody would be able to avoid foundering their vessel on the rocks, sand, etc. Tried as we might, we weren't able to find an answer to his question. He had a huge smile on his face as he said, "what you do is you don't get caught on a lee shore during a hurricane, kiddos" and clapped us on the back.
But that's not where this story ends; for although letting your adversary get close to you with 3 gateway unitsis the same as being caught on a lee shore in high winds in that you must avoid it to begin with, it's also the same as being caught on a lee shore in high winds insofar as that it's possible it WILL still happen, even if you sail/play your best, and if you don't have a contingency plan in place for it, your boat/game will get unnecessarily dashed on the rocks / lost.
His uncle continued: "but should you get caught on the lee shore, you need to use the kedge anchor and swing your way into a heading away from shoals and shallow water. If it comes down to it, you can use it to tack if you don't have enough room to do so otherwise-- but you'll have to cut'er loose after that, so you have only once chance." He would take us out later in the day to show how this was done.
Don't get caught on a lee shore in a hurricane. Send your scv out in front so you can not get caught by 3 gateway units. Should you get caught, you can kill a stalker, and possibly two if you're careful with your stuttering. I've managed to kill two stalkers against a guy who opened 2 gateways and engaged with 2 stalkers, 2 zealots against my composition. The fact that your micro is superior doesn't mean that it's impossible for a terran player to micro as well.
Granted, against an opponent who opens with quick gateway units, you should just scout with your scv, avoid the lee shore, and stay at home, but you don't "only kill a zealot" as you originally asserted, nor do you only kill a stalker under all circumstances. Concussive shells are not things to be trifled with.
|
my math might be off, but once you get the first 100 gas, I think you only need 1 scv on gas to continually make marauders.
|
Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
Q&A has been updated. I've produced a couple of replays of my own that incorporate a reaper, but I feel like I'm doing it wrong. I've found one from some high master players, and the reaper just held a watch tower-- the terran player made 1 marauder and it stayed at home, using it to low-ground his expo on close air metal. If anyone has any replays of a version of this that does a reaper, please PM me or post here in the thread.
Also, I'm looking for replays of professional and semiprofessional players using this build (and its variants) to add to the replays section, since you will doubtless learn quite a bit more from them than from me.
On January 24 2012 06:15 justalex wrote: my math might be off, but once you get the first 100 gas, I think you only need 1 scv on gas to continually make marauders.
This statement, while factually true, I believe misses the point of the 3 scvs on gas then 0 scvs on gas I in particular use. I do this to get enough gas for a tech lab, 2 marauders, and concussive shell, then quickly build up enough minerals to get a fast expansion and produce only marines. Workers go back on gas afterwards, but for a brief period of time I produce marines out of a tech lab barracks. However, if you would like to produce additional marauders beyond the first two, that is entirely viable and probably safer against ground attacks, but will delay your natural and make you more vulnerable to void ray aggression.
Alright, guys! Good news. Here's a pro replay from Kas at IEM Kiev: http://drop.sc/97179 + Show Spoiler +In this game, Kas cuts the first marine and goes for constant marauder pressure against a nexus-first opening from White-Ra, killing 7 workers and 3 zealots but overcomitting and losing his marauders. He comes out of it economically slightly ahead, but has to make bunkers after losing some marauders. I think this is a good example of how this type of early concussive pressure can be used against unusually greedy Protoss play.
|
Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
More Good News! Pro VoD from Kas in NASTL against HerO: http://www.twitch.tv/nasltv/b/309105469?t=2100 + Show Spoiler +Okay, so he actually loses this. But it's still an example of the build in use. Kas skips the first marine and makes two quick marauders, then expos He takes map control, but HerO opens with a 3 gate, crushing his front and abusing a questionable barracks placement, eventually overwhelming him. HerO's a great player and reacted with a very strong BO counter. It wasn't unwinnable but these things together with the rax placement eventually overwhelmed him.
I think this may be Kas' go-to TvP build on Tal'Darim Altar, due to the architecture of the natural. I'll keep an eye on his stream to see if I can find anything else from him, or maybe see if some of the many tournaments he's in have released replays.
|
This is best with a reaper after the two marauders.
|
Great guide as always Blaze, but I immediately have to ask what this build gives that modern 2-rax concussive pressure doesn't do better?
2 rax has much more dangerous pressure on the protoss with the ability to out-right kill a protoss who makes a mistake, ability to deny the poke, and a super safe expo.
|
Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
On February 20 2012 13:11 DaemonX wrote: Great guide as always Blaze, but I immediately have to ask what this build gives that modern 2-rax concussive pressure doesn't do better?
2 rax has much more dangerous pressure on the protoss with the ability to out-right kill a protoss who makes a mistake, ability to deny the poke, and a super safe expo.
This build expands more quickly, at the cost of being more vulnerable to certain all-ins and being able to put on less pressure.
BO updated with information on Reapers and Kas' Variation inline.
Q&A Updated.
|
|
|
|