EPTAs this is not a very viable strategy. I am glad to read your post.
[G] PvZ Dealing with Muta - Page 5
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MysteryMeat1
United States3291 Posts
As this is not a very viable strategy. I am glad to read your post. | ||
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vaderseven
United States2556 Posts
On November 22 2011 05:58 CecilSunkure wrote: I'm not talking about Macro Muta... -.- Sort of feel like nobody is really listening to what I'm saying. I'm clearly not talking about pro players or pro games, I'm addressing a problem that I see. This is coming from empathy of how low level players play, think, and come onto the forums and think. This means if someone new to the forums or SC2 comes in here and reads the thread, they'll probably get a bunch of great advice that they simply can't apply -and they won't even know it unless they read my posts. Sorry if it sounds like I'm making a big deal out of all this, but I just feel really terrible knowing people are going to get confused or miss important info when the solution to the problem is really as simple as pointing out: Muta numbers should always be manageable if you don't let a Zerg opponent run free for 13 minutes. If you let a decent Zerg run free for too long, it doesn't matter what tactics or strategies you use, as there will simply be too big of an income disparity from improper play to make a difference. You are talking about something that is true at all timings in every XvZ matchup. Its this idea of threat that many players dont grasp that it feel impossible to out macro a zerg. I did a write up in TvZ guide that would apply to XvZ. Click the spoiler that says the idea of threat: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=222366 | ||
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Jonas :)
United States511 Posts
Question: since muta/ling can basically go anywhere they want, you will not be able to defend all of your bases at once when your army moves out (I have a hard enough time defending all of my bases when my army is in my base, lol). So in what order should you try to save your bases when the zerg does inevitably go for a base trade? Is saving your tech tree more important than saving your mining bases? Should I preemptively build key tech structures at my expansion? if so when? | ||
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Purupururin
United States14 Posts
The early phoenixes help buy time vs early mutas or even force the zerg away from muta ling. However, if he contnues to commit, I find that I'll have the templar quickly to defend. I'll stop phoenix production either when I get templar, or when I scout that he isn't doing any muta-age. The phoenix are helpful to me always to look around the map and the voidray I like to patrol around all the towers, so I get a lot of use out of these units, I like this because it is safe versus anything a zerg can do to you, although 2 base roach hydra all ins can be difficult, but the storms will damage the units enough that you should be able to swiftly clean it up. Although you say 1 templar per base, I use two. I feel safer, and if one dies, my base is still well defended. After a 1 or 2 storms the mutas are way to fragile. Also, although you say warp prism, I have a problem using something slower than mutas, while he has so much air control. In fact, I have a problem harassing with anything vs mutas because of the mobility. Would you be okay with loosing a prism and zealots (although they are only minerals) every time you harass? I guess the speed upgrade would be critical if he continues to muta late game although I personally think someone should never go "mass muta." Also, to continue on with the build above, after I get my third, I like to add 2 robos, for immortals, and an Immortal Stalker templar compisition, but also I like to produce some warp prisms, but with this I could go mass observers. I think what makes more sense is to go 1 robo after the 3rd and keep it super active depending on what he is making. If he continues muta, more observers and warp prisms. If not, you can get a warp prism or two but mostly immortals. Also, I find a 3rd to be easy to defend while you make it vs any amount of mutas as long as you have defensive HT there. Pretty much wherever your defensive HT are, you are safe vs muta so use this. Also, why are mass mutas good? Do you really see mass muta in your scene? The fragility of mutas in my opinion make them really weak late game units vs toss. Yeah, you can use late game mutas to counter attack late game just like lings, but if you are going mass muta, then you don't have an army that you can engage with. Defensive HT and the protoss core army is too good. The phoenixes, is important I think to stop producing after storm. (Well at least this is true for what I do). What do you think? | ||
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rsvp
United States2266 Posts
On November 22 2011 03:33 SoKHo wrote: I'm only in high masters, but I found that speed warp prisms with HT in them are extremely useful for harassing + defending mutas. If the mutas spot the warp prism and tries to snipe the warp prism, I can drop a ht or 2 and storm them. Also, storming mineral lines and getting +20 drone kills helps a lot when your stuck in your base defending mutas. Sounds very micro/apm intensive, but could be worth it. Share some reps if you have them  On November 22 2011 04:14 matrius wrote: Thanks alot for the post, definitely some stuff in there that will help me out! Few comments: 1) Whenever I play against this, I always feel like I'm scrambling, which kinda messes up my game. But, hopefully I can play better next time with your advice 2) I find zergling runby's to be extremely difficult - in your first replay you had 5 cannons at your 3rd, and they just took them out easily, while killing the HT before you could react, and destroying your third which is a great deal for the zerg (all minerals, and now protoss can't get gas). I'm wondering if there is something more we could do in this area of defending expansions. Better sim city? Perhaps doing an almost complete wallin with a HT inside? Then blocking the last remaining space with probes so they can get in when attacking? If there was only one space through which to get probes, the zerglings would die off pretty quick as the ran single file in... 3) Along with some zealots, I'm wondering if a couple of colossi would be helpful to take care of zerglings/broodlings? No need for the range upgrade. You didn't seem to need immortals for the spine crawlers, and I think micro'd blink stalkers work well vs the spine crawlers anyway. 4) Have you ever made like 8 DT and then just took out an expansion and then run home to change into archons? As well, I think you are right and should perhaps emphasize - its more import to get your 3rd as protoss than for the zerg to lose one of his expansions. Sigh, it really seems like protoss have to work harder to defend this style than any other really... Cheers! 1) Defending is much more difficult than harassing. Hopefully having observers all over the map will give you extra time so you don't have to panic. Keep practicing! 2) Yea I can always use better sim city, many other players simply just advise getting a lot more cannons which will work as well. 3) Colossus is ok as a late game tech after you get 4+ bases. Prior to that, your gas is better spent on stalkers + HT. I don't really think its all too necessary against lings though, since zealots + storm already do a great job against them 4) 8 DTs sound like a really big and risky investment. It's definitely a good idea to try DT harass and then run home and turn them into archons after they get detection though. On November 22 2011 05:38 Skyro wrote: Perhaps you should add a screenshot of how to actually storm mutas/air units? Some people may not realize you actually have to storm at the dots below the mutas. I also think it's worth mentioning that you aren't advocating a purely passive game, and that putting pressure on the zerg can often force the zerg to make defenses (especially roaches) which delays mutas. I think most people who have issues with mutas either are too passive initially so zerg can get mutas out super fast, and/or they incorrectly assess when they can push out. For me personally, when I feel forced to push out it's less of a "mutas harass is too hard to deal with" and more of a "he's powering his economy to a level where I must end this now" type of mentality. Also what do you think about DT play instead of HT? I've had some mixed success by using DTs to deny mass expansions long enough to mass an army to push out. Then you can morph DTs into archons to strengthen your push. Good idea, I'll update the OP to include tips on storming. I personally don't think playing super passively is a problem as long as you expand fast and keep expanding. Protoss has the stronger 200/200 deathball, so as long as protoss can get to that point it doesn't matter how many bases or what units the zerg has. DTs are always a gamble. It may or may not pay off. HTs are the safe route. On November 22 2011 11:36 Xaeldaren wrote: Could you address using Stargate play to pre-empt Mutalisks? I open Stargate in my PvZ as a form of early game harassment, to force Hydralisks and to ward my opponent away from Mutalisks because of my early Phoenix count. Is this viable way to play? (Apologies if this is unrelated as this thread is about dealing with the Mutalisks when they're actually out). (Disclaimer: I'm a Platinum Protoss so I know I'm terrible.) I don't really know if stargate really deters muta play. When I talk about muta play, I'm not only discussing 2 base straight into mutas. The transition from roach or some other opener to muta is still very common, and a zerg can go 3 base roach and then still safely switch to muta if you open stargate. On November 22 2011 13:14 Jonas wrote:Awesome OP, thanks for writing that up, rsvp. Question: since muta/ling can basically go anywhere they want, you will not be able to defend all of your bases at once when your army moves out (I have a hard enough time defending all of my bases when my army is in my base, lol). So in what order should you try to save your bases when the zerg does inevitably go for a base trade? Is saving your tech tree more important than saving your mining bases? Should I preemptively build key tech structures at my expansion? if so when? Not necessarily. I think the goal is to have a big enough army with enough storm such that you can both attack and defend at the same time. I never try to go for a base trade against a zerg going mutas. On November 22 2011 13:51 Purupururin wrote: My current build vs Zerg is to go FFE --> Stargate 1 voidray (to defend any 2 base all ins) and the rest phoenix. I spend constant chrono on the stargate trying to keep this as active as possible while I tech to storm, blink, and expand. The early phoenixes help buy time vs early mutas or even force the zerg away from muta ling. However, if he contnues to commit, I find that I'll have the templar quickly to defend. I'll stop phoenix production either when I get templar, or when I scout that he isn't doing any muta-age. The phoenix are helpful to me always to look around the map and the voidray I like to patrol around all the towers, so I get a lot of use out of these units, I like this because it is safe versus anything a zerg can do to you, although 2 base roach hydra all ins can be difficult, but the storms will damage the units enough that you should be able to swiftly clean it up. Although you say 1 templar per base, I use two. I feel safer, and if one dies, my base is still well defended. After a 1 or 2 storms the mutas are way to fragile. Also, although you say warp prism, I have a problem using something slower than mutas, while he has so much air control. In fact, I have a problem harassing with anything vs mutas because of the mobility. Would you be okay with loosing a prism and zealots (although they are only minerals) every time you harass? I guess the speed upgrade would be critical if he continues to muta late game although I personally think someone should never go "mass muta." Also, to continue on with the build above, after I get my third, I like to add 2 robos, for immortals, and an Immortal Stalker templar compisition, but also I like to produce some warp prisms, but with this I could go mass observers. I think what makes more sense is to go 1 robo after the 3rd and keep it super active depending on what he is making. If he continues muta, more observers and warp prisms. If not, you can get a warp prism or two but mostly immortals. Also, I find a 3rd to be easy to defend while you make it vs any amount of mutas as long as you have defensive HT there. Pretty much wherever your defensive HT are, you are safe vs muta so use this. Also, why are mass mutas good? Do you really see mass muta in your scene? The fragility of mutas in my opinion make them really weak late game units vs toss. Yeah, you can use late game mutas to counter attack late game just like lings, but if you are going mass muta, then you don't have an army that you can engage with. Defensive HT and the protoss core army is too good. The phoenixes, is important I think to stop producing after storm. (Well at least this is true for what I do). What do you think? Stargate opener is fine. Some phoenix is fine as long as you continue teching to blink and storm. The purpose of warp prism is to get to an expansion without the zerg noticing. Usually the zerg has map control so if you just walk zealots to an expansion then they will get spotted by watchtowers. Since warp prisms don't cost gas it's not a big deal if you lose it. It seems like you really haven't dealt with mass muta so that's why you've been transitioning to immortals after your 3rd, expecting a roach switch. But mass muta is certainly a real/viable threat, and you can't transition to immortals too early or else you'll just lose to pure muta. | ||
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Xaeldaren
Ireland588 Posts
Thanks! | ||
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AmericanUmlaut
Germany2577 Posts
One thing I would add is a discussion of Stalker grouping and positioning. Moving Stalkers into your main to respond to Mutas arriving is very slow, because they have to walk through the wall-off that you'll have from the early game, so it's really useful, at least until you get Storm, to keep a group of Stalkers in your main that is large enough to pick at the Mutas until you can drive them off with your main force. Obviously your idea of having a large squad of Observers to keep tabs on the Muta flock's position will help with getting your Stalkers in the right spot quickly enough. It also occurs to me that it might be worth 150 mins to destroy one of the buildings in your choke so that Stalkers don't have to walk into your base single file. | ||
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sleepingdog
Austria6145 Posts
What I wanted to comment on is double stargate - some people have mentioned it, but I think it deserves a closer look. If you open double stargate, you normally plan on going for few voidrays and a lot of phoenixes to press a roach-player into hydras. If your opponent has opened spire (with or without roach warren depending on his greed), I am convinced that you do not have to transition into blink immediately, you just have to continue to produce phoenixes. It is a very common misconception that mutas "counter" phoenixes once the numbers grow larger. That is most definitely not the case, I've done extensive testing in the unit-tester on that. Even if you do NOT micro your phoenixes, phoenixes beat mutas cost-efficiently regardless of the supply. The only way the zerg player will be able to overwhelm you is if you let him outmacro you. And now that's the funny thing, if you have opened double stargate, you have COMPLETE MAP CONTROL (!) vs a muta-opener. You can take your third extremely early and wall it off with cannons vs the inevitable mass-llings. Or you can use +1 zealots to bust into their third. Intelligent zerg players will halt muta-production immediately, because there's no way you should ever get outplayed by mutas with double stargate phoenixes. What they will do is to try to (re-)take aircontrol with corruptors, who happen to counter phoenixes hard...and THEN procede with mutas. Now corruptors are slower than phoenixes and pose no threat to your ground army whatsoever. This - again - means you can take a safe fast 3rd or apply more pressure. Pretty much both can work in this situation depending on your preference and the spawning position. My overall point: while I completely agree with rsvp on basicly every single build he has mentioned, double stargate indeed is the one build that doesn't require an immediate blink/storm transition. | ||
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
I'm glad you talked a little about how to engage mutalisks. It pains me to see players blink their stalkers right on top of the muta ball and a move in their direction.. I advise everyone to watch liquidhero and tslkiller stream. The way they engage mutalisks and micro against them is insane. They will scoot'n'shoot instead of blink at first, and only use blink defensively. And they ALWAYS focus fire a single one, NO MATTER WHAT. They always manage to pick off one or 2 mutas even if the mutas are running away; it's very common for less of a god to almost kill 2-4 of them but not manage to pick off a single one because of not focus firing. It's funny because in korea you will see zergs retreat with their mutas very quickly against units because they expect this caliber of micro. on US/EU, for the most part players are more greedy with their mutalisk raids simply because they players they face don't fight against mutalisks correctly. | ||
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SeriouR
Spain622 Posts
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SchfiftyFive
United States131 Posts
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Asmodeusz
193 Posts
1. You'll deal with lings or mutas or both of them at the same time without worrying about balancing your anti air and anti ground units. 2. You'll feel like a total boss playing carrier/archon/storm composition. | ||
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sol_
United Kingdom5 Posts
My Zerg-friend will not be pleased! | ||
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dre2k
Netherlands215 Posts
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
1) lots of observers bloomin' rules. So helpful. If they're carrying an overseer around with them, you've already partway succeeded... 2) aggressively get that third. If you're still on 2 base at 14 mins you're in big trouble 3) having 2 or 3 immortals in your "I'm moving out to kill him" army is amazing. Helps vs surprising ultra switch, or much much more likely, helps a butt-ton vs roaches that Zerg WILL remax on as they're losing their army. As to moving out to go kill him, 4) I like to spam cannons in my main and leave a couple of templar. 8 cannons and a couple of templar protecting your production facilities rather helps your cause if/when they try to backstab you. 5) I discovered this one by accident, but it may actually be practical: when you've decided you're gonna move out, use a warp prism + a big warp-in of zealots to harrass the furthest away expansion you can. You might get a bunch of drones and even the expansion, but more importantly you draw away the mutas to that base (else you kill it for free) which gives you SO much time to actually move out with your main army. | ||
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getdeadplz
United States116 Posts
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Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
With that said, I'm not advocating that you go pure archon vs muta/ling, but I really like mixing in 2 archons before getting templars for storm while storm is still researching to help deal with the muta ball. The combination of (sentries)/2 Archons/Blink stalker and storm really lays the pain on muta/ling and the archons help a lot against bane transitions as well. On November 22 2011 19:29 Alejandrisha wrote: Nice guide! I'm glad you talked a little about how to engage mutalisks. It pains me to see players blink their stalkers right on top of the muta ball and a move in their direction.. I advise everyone to watch liquidhero and tslkiller stream. The way they engage mutalisks and micro against them is insane. They will scoot'n'shoot instead of blink at first, and only use blink defensively. And they ALWAYS focus fire a single one, NO MATTER WHAT. They always manage to pick off one or 2 mutas even if the mutas are running away; it's very common for less of a god to almost kill 2-4 of them but not manage to pick off a single one because of not focus firing. It's funny because in korea you will see zergs retreat with their mutas very quickly against units because they expect this caliber of micro. on US/EU, for the most part players are more greedy with their mutalisk raids simply because they players they face don't fight against mutalisks correctly. Mmm I find that offensive blinking is generally better that shoot and scoot. I find that players will often run away if you try to shoot and scoot to the mutas, whereas a blink underneath the mutas and focus fire with shoot and scoot will kill 1-3 mutas (or more) before they're able to get away. | ||
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rsvp
United States2266 Posts
On November 22 2011 18:48 sleepingdog wrote: Cool write-up, just found time to read all that. What I wanted to comment on is double stargate - some people have mentioned it, but I think it deserves a closer look. If you open double stargate, you normally plan on going for few voidrays and a lot of phoenixes to press a roach-player into hydras. If your opponent has opened spire (with or without roach warren depending on his greed), I am convinced that you do not have to transition into blink immediately, you just have to continue to produce phoenixes. It is a very common misconception that mutas "counter" phoenixes once the numbers grow larger. That is most definitely not the case, I've done extensive testing in the unit-tester on that. Even if you do NOT micro your phoenixes, phoenixes beat mutas cost-efficiently regardless of the supply. The only way the zerg player will be able to overwhelm you is if you let him outmacro you. And now that's the funny thing, if you have opened double stargate, you have COMPLETE MAP CONTROL (!) vs a muta-opener. You can take your third extremely early and wall it off with cannons vs the inevitable mass-llings. Or you can use +1 zealots to bust into their third. Intelligent zerg players will halt muta-production immediately, because there's no way you should ever get outplayed by mutas with double stargate phoenixes. What they will do is to try to (re-)take aircontrol with corruptors, who happen to counter phoenixes hard...and THEN procede with mutas. Now corruptors are slower than phoenixes and pose no threat to your ground army whatsoever. This - again - means you can take a safe fast 3rd or apply more pressure. Pretty much both can work in this situation depending on your preference and the spawning position. My overall point: while I completely agree with rsvp on basicly every single build he has mentioned, double stargate indeed is the one build that doesn't require an immediate blink/storm transition. Haha sorry for the lack of organization in the OP, but I'm sure I mention somewhere that if you had opened double stargate it's almost like an auto-win against mutas because then you just make phoenixes and some gateway units and win. So we agree 100% | ||
Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
On November 23 2011 01:30 coL.rsvp wrote: Haha sorry for the lack of organization in the OP, but I'm sure I mention somewhere that if you had opened double stargate it's almost like an auto-win against mutas because then you just make phoenixes and some gateway units and win. So we agree 100% Do you feel like you have to open double stargate, or you are fine if you open single stargate and add a second if you scout a spire (and you aren't making colossus)? | ||
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tentoff
United States19 Posts
As a mid/high masters toss, I have been experimenting and trying to figure out how to deal with mutas on my own as usually strategy threads are not helpful. From what I have experienced and tried, I agree with everything you said, but I also learned a lot of new tips and great tactics. Thanks so much. I hope to see more great guides like this in the future. | ||
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