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How do you deal with mutas on Cloud Kingdom ?
I'm asking specifically about this map because of the natural... it's incredibly abusable due to the low amount of room behind the minerals, and the fact that there's a big cliff cutting vision.
As the muta ball grows it becomes very difficult to defend this position. Mutas can stand above the cliff and be in the mineral line instantly, and retreat as fast. Putting an obs there is mandatory, but even then, mutas can still stand near the cliff edge and attack the mineral line.. and you don't have room to put a ton of cannons for defense, nor blink enough stalkers once the muta ball has reached a critical size..
I can usually handle mutas pretty well on most maps, but on this particular map on this particular location, I'm having a lot of trouble. Am I the only one ?
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United States972 Posts
@nyast I would assume just keep more templars with storm than u normally would at the natural.
On a different note, I think the only situation Phoenix w/ range upgrades could work would be with a build such as MvPGenius's, where he gets 6-7 phoenix after void ray and a quick third. That's a head start on the mutas, and since you got a quick 6 gas you can afford the range upgrade. From here it's just constant chrono on one stargate and maybe +1 air. This way you aren't commiting to 2 stargates, you have a fleet beacon you can use later on (mothership), and you can still tech towards mass stalker / storm or whatever you want because won't have to make THAT many phoenix to deal with the mutas.
FYI I'm referring to Genius's game on Bel'Shir beach in the code s ro32 this season vs DRG. The build is pretty much safe vs.. everything.
I think this could work. The advantage over the standard way to deal with muta, is that you obviously keep air dominance so you can move out on the map with your army and if they commit to a counter with the mutas, you get to kill half of them with your phoenix.
thoughts?
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My two cents: I think the mutas would be trapped if they stayed in that position, if you moved some of your stuff to the low ground behind the cliff near the expansion there, and left mainly templar dotting your natural and ramp. If you initiate a counter attack elsewhere, the mutas would have to fly over at least one of your forces, leaving them vulnerable to storm.
PS: Maybe stuff zealots in between the cannons to soak up the glaive bounce?
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Storm... owns... all... !! Thanks for the help!
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On March 01 2012 18:43 AegiS_ wrote:
@nyast I would assume just keep more templars with storm than u normally would at the natural.
On a different note, I think the only situation Phoenix w/ range upgrades could work would be with a build such as MvPGenius's, where he gets 6-7 phoenix after void ray and a quick third. That's a head start on the mutas, and since you got a quick 6 gas you can afford the range upgrade. From here it's just constant chrono on one stargate and maybe +1 air. This way you aren't commiting to 2 stargates, you have a fleet beacon you can use later on (mothership), and you can still tech towards mass stalker / storm or whatever you want because won't have to make THAT many phoenix to deal with the mutas.
FYI I'm referring to Genius's game on Bel'Shir beach in the code s ro32 this season vs DRG. The build is pretty much safe vs.. everything.
I think this could work. The advantage over the standard way to deal with muta, is that you obviously keep air dominance so you can move out on the map with your army and if they commit to a counter with the mutas, you get to kill half of them with your phoenix.
thoughts?
What was the general outline of his build?
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Sorry for bumping this thread, but I am still having problems with muta. What should I strive for in lategame? If I defend all the muta harass and get quck 3 bases up and running, what do I strive towards in the lategame, what comp would I get so I can kill him. Or will we just end up in an eternal "if I move out I die but if I say at home he cant do shit"?
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I have the same problem, I feel like the only option is playing an hourlong game by mass turtling. Even if you have 3bases you can't attack because basetrades will own you, and if you don't attack they just get more expoes and spines while transitioning to a broodlord/infestor deathball. Without stargate opener into phoenix range I don't get how I can beat the backstabbing mutaling style consistently.
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I have had moderate success going up to 4 bases and cannon spamming hardcore one of my bases and leaving an archon and a few high temps so that he can't kill you with a base trade. Even if he does decide to go for the base trade, as long as your army is more cost efficient than his in killing his spines (storm will help with defending) then it should be pretty straightforward.
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United States8476 Posts
Standard is 3 base blink stalker -> templar -> mothership. There's something in the works to update/expand on this guide atm so look forward to that for further explanation.
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On May 24 2012 05:23 NoMicroWin wrote:
I have had moderate success going up to 4 bases and cannon spamming hardcore one of my bases and leaving an archon and a few high temps so that he can't kill you with a base trade. Even if he does decide to go for the base trade, as long as your army is more cost efficient than his in killing his spines (storm will help with defending) then it should be pretty straightforward.
This imo works well. You must have enough archons in your main force to negate lings since you don't want to be v zealot heavy. Mass cannons, pylons and templar at one base while your main blink stalker archon sentry HT army walks down his front. You can hit the same timing as the 3 colossus push, which should be before there are way too many muta or spines, and he will be behind on upgrades. Once you are sure he is committing to a base trade you can actually send your blink stalkers back to defend your third while sending the zealot archon to kill off his base. Ignore peripheral expansions and head for his main.
EDIT: Korean tosses opening stargate prefer to get out a fleet beacon for phoenix range, which with some micro, basically negate any base trade tendencies.
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Zerg platinum player here - my fav match up is ZvP.
I don't always go Mass muta but i haven't lost when i have and here are just a few things I do (admitedly in Plat so take it with a grain of salt).
I deal damage as fast as poss with the mutas. Most people now do the HT transition incredibly well off two bases against me. I stick with mutas and expanding until the Ht's get just one good storm off on them. So this is usually about 4 base v 2 base (maybe 3 if the toss is good) and i have about 30 mutas on half health. During this time i have been pushjing teh toss to ignoring robo tech, hopefully actaully sniping the robo and forcing him toward archons. When my mutas are hurt and i know i have the larvae i basically do a suicide run with them, doing as much damage as i can to the toss ability to reinforce. They all die the toss feels safe to move out and i do a 300 food push with roaches.
Storm and Archons just don't do well against roaches, the blink stalkers do but if i have done my job right he has been neglecting his stalker count a little in favour of tech, and i have damaged his econ enough that he just can't get the job done no matter how good he micros. I shrug off the storms and just roll him.
Just saying be careful, when using storm, of a big teir 1.5 push because A you probably expect the transition to go UP the tech tree not down and B because it is super effective vs storm and cheap for the zerg to pull off.
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Is nice to see this guide bumped. One of the best protoss guides i've seen (nice to see one talking about game analysis and not a simple bo). Kinda miss rsvp posts.
Looking foward for that update ^^
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Does anybody know what happened to rsvp? I used to watch his stream a lot, but he stopped a few months ago.
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United States8476 Posts
He's busy with rl, job, gf, etc...
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This guide was written prior to the Phoenix range increase, and my question is if you open Stargate instead of switching rapidly into Templar tech, can you instead get a bunch of Phoenix (8+) and with the range upgrade kite the Mutalisks?
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I completely disagree with the OP on archons, but not sure if he still feels the same anymore. Since storm damage can't stack, having more than 4-5 templar is completely useless imo unless you're trying to get off feedbacks. Archons are crazy good vs mutas and lings.
Although I'd assume RSVP would have ample practice against FireZerg who is in love with mass muta vP.
EDIT: 4-5 templar in your main army that is. If you want to leave a templar beyond I can understand in your main or something. But even early on vs mutas, I prefer to mix in archons before even getting those 3-4. Although I now instead go phoenix vs muta so I don't have enough relevant experience anymore.
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On May 24 2012 12:29 BronzeKnee wrote:
This guide was written prior to the Phoenix range increase, and my question is if you open Stargate instead of switching rapidly into Templar tech, can you instead get a bunch of Phoenix (8+) and with the range upgrade kite the Mutalisks?
Ive seen hero do this before, He gets phoenix range, gets some phoenix out and then transitions into colossus for a Phoenix Colossus push...
seems pretty strong
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On May 24 2012 12:43 FabledIntegral wrote:
I completely disagree with the OP on archons, but not sure if he still feels the same anymore. Since storm damage can't stack, having more than 4-5 templar is completely useless imo unless you're trying to get off feedbacks. Archons are crazy good vs mutas and lings.
Although I'd assume RSVP would have ample practice against FireZerg who is in love with mass muta vP.
EDIT: 4-5 templar in your main army that is. If you want to leave a templar beyond I can understand in your main or something. But even early on vs mutas, I prefer to mix in archons before even getting those 3-4. Although I now instead go phoenix vs muta so I don't have enough relevant experience anymore.
Because I'm a low level player I think archons are awesome. When i'm maxing and defending an archon in every min line with a few cannons means if I'm too slow to spot a muta flock flying in the defense is automatic and mutas will die. If my skill level was higher I'd rather have a HT with storm, but whenever I try that I find the HT dies because my reactions are too slow.
Also when it's time for my maxed out push archons make the death-ball insanely hard to break.
But again, I'm aware that this is because I'm a low level player and it's easier to play with this style, where HT is more efficient.
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On May 24 2012 12:48 AGIANTSMURF wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2012 12:29 BronzeKnee wrote:
This guide was written prior to the Phoenix range increase, and my question is if you open Stargate instead of switching rapidly into Templar tech, can you instead get a bunch of Phoenix (8+) and with the range upgrade kite the Mutalisks? Ive seen hero do this before, He gets phoenix range, gets some phoenix out and then transitions into colossus for a Phoenix Colossus push... seems pretty strong
You can do it, eventually. But it's better to get blink in the meantime before that, etc. Hero defends quite well vs the muta and more so transitions into the phoenix upgrade. And he's done it before, but I'm not sure that's how he'll react to it regularly.
On May 24 2012 12:56 Kharnage wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2012 12:43 FabledIntegral wrote:
I completely disagree with the OP on archons, but not sure if he still feels the same anymore. Since storm damage can't stack, having more than 4-5 templar is completely useless imo unless you're trying to get off feedbacks. Archons are crazy good vs mutas and lings.
Although I'd assume RSVP would have ample practice against FireZerg who is in love with mass muta vP.
EDIT: 4-5 templar in your main army that is. If you want to leave a templar beyond I can understand in your main or something. But even early on vs mutas, I prefer to mix in archons before even getting those 3-4. Although I now instead go phoenix vs muta so I don't have enough relevant experience anymore. Because I'm a low level player I think archons are awesome. When i'm maxing and defending an archon in every min line with a few cannons means if I'm too slow to spot a muta flock flying in the defense is automatic and mutas will die. If my skill level was higher I'd rather have a HT with storm, but whenever I try that I find the HT dies because my reactions are too slow. Also when it's time for my maxed out push archons make the death-ball insanely hard to break. But again, I'm aware that this is because I'm a low level player and it's easier to play with this style, where HT is more efficient.
Not sure how that's relevant to me though^^.
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Why is +1 armour so important vs mutas? Is it to reduce the bounce attack?
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EPT
