EPTAs for not making colossi, i'm not sure I agree. Colo are fantastic against lings and since you generally have a robo anyway I tend to make just a minimal number of colossi without range. Upgraded zealots do quite well against lings but if he gets hive tech and hive upgrades then 3/3 lings really roll over zealots regardless of their upgrades. Imo you need some colossi eventually as they are good when zerg tech switches and just deal with lings really well, better then storm does really. A few colossi also helps to take down spine walls which can be a hassle if you went too heavy on the zealot/ht.
[G] PvZ Dealing with Muta - Page 11
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
As for not making colossi, i'm not sure I agree. Colo are fantastic against lings and since you generally have a robo anyway I tend to make just a minimal number of colossi without range. Upgraded zealots do quite well against lings but if he gets hive tech and hive upgrades then 3/3 lings really roll over zealots regardless of their upgrades. Imo you need some colossi eventually as they are good when zerg tech switches and just deal with lings really well, better then storm does really. A few colossi also helps to take down spine walls which can be a hassle if you went too heavy on the zealot/ht. | ||
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ODKStevez
Ireland1225 Posts
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YaTa
51 Posts
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
Against mutas, it seems like you'd want to take a third at about 8 minutes and just get a lot of gates, start blink, and build plenty of cannons, but while that should work well enough against infestors, it should die to hydras. The zealot-void timing and hero-style +1 weapons 4-gate pressure are both pretty bad against 2-base muta. If I go 2-base robo+twilight and reactively take my third after my obs scout, I do okay in terms of W-L, but I feel like I'm playing a bit too conservatively. Z winds up double-expanding and I take my third a little later than I want, so I feel like I'm playing slightly from behind. Maybe quick third + quick templar archives (starting blink with option to cancel if not muta) would work well against all three quick lair tech paths? Suggestions? | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36158 Posts
On January 31 2012 02:18 kcdc wrote: Does anyone have good tips for build order responses to 2-base lair play? While this most often means mutas, it could also mean infestors (and quick hive) or a hydra bust. I don't feel like I have a good gameplan that performs well against all 3. Against mutas, it seems like you'd want to take a third at about 8 minutes and just get a lot of gates, start blink, and build plenty of cannons, but while that should work well enough against infestors, it should die to hydras. The zealot-void timing and hero-style +1 weapons 4-gate pressure are both pretty bad against 2-base muta. If I go 2-base robo+twilight and reactively take my third after my obs scout, I do okay in terms of W-L, but I feel like I'm playing a bit too conservatively. Z winds up double-expanding and I take my third a little later than I want, so I feel like I'm playing slightly from behind. Maybe quick third + quick templar archives (starting blink with option to cancel if not muta) would work well against all three quick lair tech paths? Suggestions? I'm not sure why you would cancel blink, it's pretty much good against everything  I would aim for twilight and get hallucination if you know he's 2-base. Hallu doesn't pin you into robo, and templar work well against everything (not quite as good as colo vs infestor/ling or hydra, but we know how colo does vs mutas). Quick 3rd and templar archives sounds quite plausible though, cannons are pretty nice vs hydra and infestor/ling, so you have a moment where you're spending a fortune in minerals setting up your 3rd with some cannons, which is the perfect time to research storm and get some templar. | ||
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Skyro
United States1823 Posts
On January 31 2012 02:18 kcdc wrote: Does anyone have good tips for build order responses to 2-base lair play? While this most often means mutas, it could also mean infestors (and quick hive) or a hydra bust. I don't feel like I have a good gameplan that performs well against all 3. Against mutas, it seems like you'd want to take a third at about 8 minutes and just get a lot of gates, start blink, and build plenty of cannons, but while that should work well enough against infestors, it should die to hydras. The zealot-void timing and hero-style +1 weapons 4-gate pressure are both pretty bad against 2-base muta. If I go 2-base robo+twilight and reactively take my third after my obs scout, I do okay in terms of W-L, but I feel like I'm playing a bit too conservatively. Z winds up double-expanding and I take my third a little later than I want, so I feel like I'm playing slightly from behind. Maybe quick third + quick templar archives (starting blink with option to cancel if not muta) would work well against all three quick lair tech paths? Suggestions? Have you considered warp prism play? If your BO is tight you can hit a pre-muta/infestor timing (~9mins) with a warp prism which really punishes any zerg who skips roaches. You will have a small ~30sec window before mutas pop but you will do a ton of damage before mutas can clean up your zealots (usually snipe their lair and/or spire). I make my twilight right before I do my drop so that once I confirm mutas I can start researching blink and begin preparations to either grab my 3rd or all-in off 2-base depending on the situation. Also IMO I wouldn't say you're in a terrible situation vs a 2-base muta player who goes into double expand if you can secure your 3rd relatively and 4th on time. | ||
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MCDayC
United Kingdom14464 Posts
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samsonsrad
Canada27 Posts
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skatbone
United States1005 Posts
On January 31 2012 02:18 kcdc wrote: Does anyone have good tips for build order responses to 2-base lair play? While this most often means mutas, it could also mean infestors (and quick hive) or a hydra bust. I don't feel like I have a good gameplan that performs well against all 3. Against mutas, it seems like you'd want to take a third at about 8 minutes and just get a lot of gates, start blink, and build plenty of cannons, but while that should work well enough against infestors, it should die to hydras. The zealot-void timing and hero-style +1 weapons 4-gate pressure are both pretty bad against 2-base muta. If I go 2-base robo+twilight and reactively take my third after my obs scout, I do okay in terms of W-L, but I feel like I'm playing a bit too conservatively. Z winds up double-expanding and I take my third a little later than I want, so I feel like I'm playing slightly from behind. Maybe quick third + quick templar archives (starting blink with option to cancel if not muta) would work well against all three quick lair tech paths? Suggestions? I'd like a BO to deal with this as well. Most of the time, it is 2-base muta but sometimes, as you note, its infestors or hydras. I've been struggling with this for awhile. I've tried both the warp prism timed to hit before the spire and the fast third, cannons, and templar archive. I don't have much success with any of these strats, but I'm only diamond. I lose to Zerg 2base tech into late third more than any other zerg style. | ||
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chestnutcc
India429 Posts
On January 31 2012 02:18 kcdc wrote: Does anyone have good tips for build order responses to 2-base lair play? While this most often means mutas, it could also mean infestors (and quick hive) or a hydra bust. I don't feel like I have a good gameplan that performs well against all 3. Against mutas, it seems like you'd want to take a third at about 8 minutes and just get a lot of gates, start blink, and build plenty of cannons, but while that should work well enough against infestors, it should die to hydras. The zealot-void timing and hero-style +1 weapons 4-gate pressure are both pretty bad against 2-base muta. If I go 2-base robo+twilight and reactively take my third after my obs scout, I do okay in terms of W-L, but I feel like I'm playing a bit too conservatively. Z winds up double-expanding and I take my third a little later than I want, so I feel like I'm playing slightly from behind. Maybe quick third + quick templar archives (starting blink with option to cancel if not muta) would work well against all three quick lair tech paths? Suggestions? Seconded. There is a lot of ambiguity as to what tech path the zerg is going at this point. Personally I find upgraded speed roaches off 2 bases quite difficult to deal with. | ||
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Balgrog
United States1221 Posts
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ZeromuS
Canada13386 Posts
On January 31 2012 12:30 chestnutcc wrote: + Show Spoiler + On January 31 2012 02:18 kcdc wrote: Does anyone have good tips for build order responses to 2-base lair play? While this most often means mutas, it could also mean infestors (and quick hive) or a hydra bust. I don't feel like I have a good gameplan that performs well against all 3. Against mutas, it seems like you'd want to take a third at about 8 minutes and just get a lot of gates, start blink, and build plenty of cannons, but while that should work well enough against infestors, it should die to hydras. The zealot-void timing and hero-style +1 weapons 4-gate pressure are both pretty bad against 2-base muta. If I go 2-base robo+twilight and reactively take my third after my obs scout, I do okay in terms of W-L, but I feel like I'm playing a bit too conservatively. Z winds up double-expanding and I take my third a little later than I want, so I feel like I'm playing slightly from behind. Maybe quick third + quick templar archives (starting blink with option to cancel if not muta) would work well against all three quick lair tech paths? Suggestions? Seconded. There is a lot of ambiguity as to what tech path the zerg is going at this point. Personally I find upgraded speed roaches off 2 bases quite difficult to deal with. I like to open the void ray +1 zealot attack timing but I find if i send my first 2 zealots, see no 3rd and spines at the front of the zerg natural I decide to get hallucination and make only one void ray to control air space and deny a delayed third as well as kill overlords. I might be able to cancel the stargate if i do a probe scout or a one zealot scout but the problem here is that if the zerg goes for a not super fast third then you can't deny it. At least with the voidray it forces them to make more queens (if they don't want to miss injects) or wait till lair tech (hydras or mutas) to kick in before the third base can really go up for the zerg player. Im not a high level player at all but I feel that this kind of response is what has put me much less behind and offers me the opportunity to scout vs following through on the 2 void ray +1 zealot 4 gate timing. Take it for what its worth but I think its the best way to come out not super behind to 2 base muta play when opening with that void ray timing. I like getting hallucination since it lets me scout in to see the lair tech chosen. Though Im not sure how well this does compared to putting down a robo bay and getting an obs. I often place my Robo and twilight down together or closely timed as well and get blink pretty quick since without blink mutas are very hard to deal with. As a note, having the void ray also helps to dissuade mass roach builds and if you scout them you can do the standard immortal sentry follow up to the void ray timing. Just throwing out some suggestions as this is a discussion thread. I can see how you think the fast third into fast HT and blink is good Alej, but I would be really worried about heavy roach play since if they make only roaches it might just kill you or the third because of just having too many roaches and too few stalkers to really be cost effective. FF would help but on certain maps they won't be super good and when they run out its much harder to defend. Not to mention that with a lot of roaches the zerg can split his army and stalkers will again have a hard time, and templar won't be the most helpful thing at this time. You can't really ignore the lair option of speed/burrow- burrow move roaches either. Though uncommon it could become a reactive play if they see what you are doing after all. | ||
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Azera
3800 Posts
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bankai
362 Posts
1) I use a FFE --> Robo --> 5 Gate build where I get my Robo down at 6:30min. This means I am obs scouting their base by around 8:30min. If I scout 2-base mutas, is it worth doing WP drop of zealots or just taking the third as soon as I see it? 2) In the OP it states to max army before moving out. Is this saying that I should not move out to take my fourth until I am maxed out, or should not move out to attack when Im maxed out? 3) How do you know when to try and take a fourth? Should I have a certain amount of army before thinking about taking the fourth? Or is it pretty much just a gamble since its only a mineral loss if it fails? Muta harass can come pretty frequently so often it gets denied. | ||
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Skyro
United States1823 Posts
On February 01 2012 14:37 bankai wrote: Could I just clarify a couple of things? 1) I use a FFE --> Robo --> 5 Gate build where I get my Robo down at 6:30min. This means I am obs scouting their base by around 8:30min. If I scout 2-base mutas, is it worth doing WP drop of zealots or just taking the third as soon as I see it? 2) In the OP it states to max army before moving out. Is this saying that I should not move out to take my fourth until I am maxed out, or should not move out to attack when Im maxed out? 3) How do you know when to try and take a fourth? Should I have a certain amount of army before thinking about taking the fourth? Or is it pretty much just a gamble since its only a mineral loss if it fails? Muta harass can come pretty frequently so often it gets denied. I'm not the OP but here are my thoughts: 1) If you get a robo that early, there is no reason not to make a warp prism first instead of obs. There's really nothing a zerg can do to stop a warp prism from scouting his entire base due to the warp prism's speed and hp. I back this up with 6 gates and 1/1 finishing and it is devastatingly effective if they are not well positioned w/ roaches. And even if they are you can just pick up your zealots and fly away. 2) OP states to continue to expo as much as possible, not turtle to max on 3 base. Extra bases make it so that you are less all-in when you do push out and makes any base trade scenario much easier for you. 3) Judgement call, but you probably want enough HT to guard each base and for your army. | ||
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bankai
362 Posts
On February 01 2012 16:26 Skyro wrote: I'm not the OP but here are my thoughts: 1) If you get a robo that early, there is no reason not to make a warp prism first instead of obs. There's really nothing a zerg can do to stop a warp prism from scouting his entire base due to the warp prism's speed and hp. I back this up with 6 gates and 1/1 finishing and it is devastatingly effective if they are not well positioned w/ roaches. And even if they are you can just pick up your zealots and fly away. 2) OP states to continue to expo as much as possible, not turtle to max on 3 base. Extra bases make it so that you are less all-in when you do push out and makes any base trade scenario much easier for you. 3) Judgement call, but you probably want enough HT to guard each base and for your army. Thanks Skyro, sounds like solid advice! | ||
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skatbone
United States1005 Posts
On February 01 2012 16:26 Skyro wrote: I'm not the OP but here are my thoughts: 1) If you get a robo that early, there is no reason not to make a warp prism first instead of obs. There's really nothing a zerg can do to stop a warp prism from scouting his entire base due to the warp prism's speed and hp. I back this up with 6 gates and 1/1 finishing and it is devastatingly effective if they are not well positioned w/ roaches. And even if they are you can just pick up your zealots and fly away. 2) OP states to continue to expo as much as possible, not turtle to max on 3 base. Extra bases make it so that you are less all-in when you do push out and makes any base trade scenario much easier for you. 3) Judgement call, but you probably want enough HT to guard each base and for your army. As far as taking a fourth, I am only diamond, but lately, against mutas, I find that the fourth comes as I am pooling minerals after having defended a couple of muta passes and, usually, a ling or ling/roach attack on my third. In other words, I usually have to defend a bit and then I take it. If my macro is really off, I sometimes drops a 4th and 5th at the same time (on Metal, for instance). I'd also suggest taking the 4th as you are harassing with a warp prism or proxy-pylon-zealot pressure so the Zerg is distracted long enough for you to cannon up the expo. During this time, be smart about army positioning. I usually have a control group of stalkers in my main and me main army with a few templar positioned at my 3rd or between the 3rd and 4th. Defending muta harass and reading his forthcoming unit comp as he harasses is making me better at this game...but I often feel as though I am a robot running through someone else's programming when I play against this style. I feel the only way I can take control of the game is deny the harass while getting a better economy. That way, when I finally push out, as a lowly diamond player, I am dictating rather than reacting. tl;dr Take the 4th after you've defended his harass and, potentially, the attack of his main army. Harass with prism or zealots as you take your fourth. Drop cannons at the fourth. Have a portion of your army close to your 4th if possible (not so possible on Tal'Darim). | ||
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AfricanPsycho
South Africa158 Posts
Now I don't know whether its a change in the meta-game or if zerg have just found out a way to hold gateway timings with muta, but I never see this kind of advice anymore.. Do gateways timing not work vs muta nowadays, eg is a 6gate +1 still a BO win vs muta, or is it more complex nowadays?? | ||
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Klumpmeister
United States31 Posts
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ETisME
12318 Posts
On February 02 2012 14:23 AfricanPsycho wrote: Way back in season 1 everyone used to say the reponse to muta was to "kill them before they get those damn rascles in the air". The general consensus was that if you lose to muta ur bad cus you didnt kill him for going muta. Now I don't know whether its a change in the meta-game or if zerg have just found out a way to hold gateway timings with muta, but I never see this kind of advice anymore.. Do gateways timing not work vs muta nowadays, eg is a 6gate +1 still a BO win vs muta, or is it more complex nowadays?? they still kill zerg right at the spot. But there are more builds that are designed to deal with these x gate all-in and then transition to 3 bases muta along | ||
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