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On November 22 2011 10:32 onmach wrote:
This is about the first protoss thread I've seen that has a real answer to mutas. That observer cloud thing is a super good idea. I'll have to start looking for too competent stalker movement and make an overseer if this becomes common.
I personally don't really fear storm. When I see it coming I transition into roaches, as for the mutas, they rarely take more than 20 damage per storm, and the templar themselves are super vulnerable. But maybe at the high level it is more effective.
Still, a good guide, you complainers should be listening to this guy. The only thing he doesn't seem to deal with is spine crawler walls that I put up so that my last engagements will be beneficial. I always make sure I have big walls in the middle of the map to retreat to, and to delay the stalkers so that I can put the final nail in the coffin of his economy before I engage.
Once you hit 12 mutas, make an overseer + ovie speed. It really useful and you kill a lot more pylon :D
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Thanks so much for this post. Was having a really hard time with Mutas and this helped!
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I wish this information could have been suppressed for a little while longer. My ladder streak against P couldn't last forever 
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Has anyone tried keeping your main army home to deal with mutas while launching all of your mid-game attacks from warp prisms? The idea came to me today and I haven't had an opportunity to try it yet, but my theory is that it would let you get aggressive earlier and to circumvent the spine crawlers.
The general idea:
Take a quick third, get templar tech, 12 gates and warp prism speed. Load 4 templar in a speed prism and warp in 8 zealots and 2 archons at Z's base. 8 zealots and 2 archons should can handle a ton of lings in the choke between a mineral line and a hatchery, and when 30 mutas come over, you drop your 4 templar and storm the mutas down so the archons 1-shot 5 mutas at a time. It seems like with some practice with the control, you might be able to kill an entire army just off of 4 templar, a warp prism, and a couple rounds of warp-ins without ever leaving your base undefended.
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This is really helpfull for me thanks, I dont know why but I seam to lose to muta ling nearly every PvZ I play, damn flavor of the month builds
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On December 13 2011 05:51 kcdc wrote:
Has anyone tried keeping your main army home to deal with mutas while launching all of your mid-game attacks from warp prisms? The idea came to me today and I haven't had an opportunity to try it yet, but my theory is that it would let you get aggressive earlier and to circumvent the spine crawlers.
The general idea:
Take a quick third, get templar tech, 12 gates and warp prism speed. Load 4 templar in a speed prism and warp in 8 zealots and 2 archons at Z's base. 8 zealots and 2 archons should can handle a ton of lings in the choke between a mineral line and a hatchery, and when 30 mutas come over, you drop your 4 templar and storm the mutas down so the archons 1-shot 5 mutas at a time. It seems like with some practice with the control, you might be able to kill an entire army just off of 4 templar, a warp prism, and a couple rounds of warp-ins without ever leaving your base undefended.
Excuse my ignorance, but aren't mutas still faster than a speedy warp prism? If so, it feels like a big gamble unless you know where the mutas are. How would you work around that?
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Awesome guide, thanks for the info. I always make a ton of observers to spot for drops against Terran, but for some reason it never occurred to me to make them against Mutalisks too. Really cool idea.
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Nigeria3519 Posts
On December 13 2011 06:55 Mikelius wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 05:51 kcdc wrote:
Has anyone tried keeping your main army home to deal with mutas while launching all of your mid-game attacks from warp prisms? The idea came to me today and I haven't had an opportunity to try it yet, but my theory is that it would let you get aggressive earlier and to circumvent the spine crawlers.
The general idea:
Take a quick third, get templar tech, 12 gates and warp prism speed. Load 4 templar in a speed prism and warp in 8 zealots and 2 archons at Z's base. 8 zealots and 2 archons should can handle a ton of lings in the choke between a mineral line and a hatchery, and when 30 mutas come over, you drop your 4 templar and storm the mutas down so the archons 1-shot 5 mutas at a time. It seems like with some practice with the control, you might be able to kill an entire army just off of 4 templar, a warp prism, and a couple rounds of warp-ins without ever leaving your base undefended. Excuse my ignorance, but aren't mutas still faster than a speedy warp prism? If so, it feels like a big gamble unless you know where the mutas are. How would you work around that?
I think mutas are the same speed or slower than a speed prism.
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United States8476 Posts
On December 13 2011 07:15 Flonomenalz wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 06:55 Mikelius wrote:On December 13 2011 05:51 kcdc wrote:
Has anyone tried keeping your main army home to deal with mutas while launching all of your mid-game attacks from warp prisms? The idea came to me today and I haven't had an opportunity to try it yet, but my theory is that it would let you get aggressive earlier and to circumvent the spine crawlers.
The general idea:
Take a quick third, get templar tech, 12 gates and warp prism speed. Load 4 templar in a speed prism and warp in 8 zealots and 2 archons at Z's base. 8 zealots and 2 archons should can handle a ton of lings in the choke between a mineral line and a hatchery, and when 30 mutas come over, you drop your 4 templar and storm the mutas down so the archons 1-shot 5 mutas at a time. It seems like with some practice with the control, you might be able to kill an entire army just off of 4 templar, a warp prism, and a couple rounds of warp-ins without ever leaving your base undefended. Excuse my ignorance, but aren't mutas still faster than a speedy warp prism? If so, it feels like a big gamble unless you know where the mutas are. How would you work around that? I think mutas are the same speed or slower than a speed prism.
Mutas are slightly faster, by 0.05 iirc. That's why unless you can guarantee a safe trip with your prism via observer positioning or clearing out overlords, a speed prism with 4 templar just seems like way to big a risk.
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On December 13 2011 07:24 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 07:15 Flonomenalz wrote:On December 13 2011 06:55 Mikelius wrote:On December 13 2011 05:51 kcdc wrote:
Has anyone tried keeping your main army home to deal with mutas while launching all of your mid-game attacks from warp prisms? The idea came to me today and I haven't had an opportunity to try it yet, but my theory is that it would let you get aggressive earlier and to circumvent the spine crawlers.
The general idea:
Take a quick third, get templar tech, 12 gates and warp prism speed. Load 4 templar in a speed prism and warp in 8 zealots and 2 archons at Z's base. 8 zealots and 2 archons should can handle a ton of lings in the choke between a mineral line and a hatchery, and when 30 mutas come over, you drop your 4 templar and storm the mutas down so the archons 1-shot 5 mutas at a time. It seems like with some practice with the control, you might be able to kill an entire army just off of 4 templar, a warp prism, and a couple rounds of warp-ins without ever leaving your base undefended. Excuse my ignorance, but aren't mutas still faster than a speedy warp prism? If so, it feels like a big gamble unless you know where the mutas are. How would you work around that? I think mutas are the same speed or slower than a speed prism. Mutas are slightly faster, by 0.05 iirc. That's why unless you can guarantee a safe trip with your prism via observer positioning or clearing out overlords, a speed prism with 4 templar just seems like way to big a risk.
I've considered this, but it's pretty easy to just keep the prism in your base and send it out when you know where the mutas are. All you need is 5 seconds to drop your templar and warp in some stalkers and you can trade well against 20-50 mutas. If you ever were caught in transit, I suspect that with some micro practice, you could move drop your templar and storm the chasing mutas and even tho you probably wouldn't kill them, you'd bring the whole flock down to red health which seems like an okay trade.
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I have a question. I played a game yesterday against a Zerg, I know the theory and everything, but still couldn't do a damn thing. Here's how it went: I took a very fast third, got some defenses up, quickly teched to blink stalkers and archons, and was able to take only minimal losses while snipping many mutas each time he tried to harass. Everything good so far.
I scout the map a bit later and realize the Zerg has taken half the map as expos, spread his creep almost up to my base.. and made 20-30 spines ( not an exageration ). He didn't have that many lings, but tons of upgraded mutas. I'm guessing he dumped his minerals excess into spines instead of mass lings.
Ultimately I pushed with my big army of stalkers + archons, avoiding his spines doomswall, and we base traded. He simply rebuilt his hatcheries in center of his spam wall, while killing off my bases. In the end there was simply too many spines for ANY kind of army to handle, excepting maybe colossi with range.. but colossi with range just don't do too well against mutas, as we all know
I could have pushed earlier instead of turtling, but in my experience when you push too soon, you lose too. I just don't really know how to handle that scenario. I had tons of obs to see his harass coming, but he simply contained me, I was good eco/upgrades/tech wise, but still lost..
Oh, and when he reached 200 ( ie. before than me ) he teched to Brood lords. That's another reason I avoided a direct confrontation when I arrived at 200 with my stalkers+archons ball, because BL behind a wall of spines is just impossible to handle.. and even with a MS, I don't think I would have won.
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On December 13 2011 07:43 Nyast wrote:I have a question. I played a game yesterday against a Zerg, I know the theory and everything, but still couldn't do a damn thing. Here's how it went: I took a very fast third, got some defenses up, quickly teched to blink stalkers and archons, and was able to take only minimal losses while snipping many mutas each time he tried to harass. Everything good so far. I scout the map a bit later and realize the Zerg has taken half the map as expos, spread his creep almost up to my base.. and made 20-30 spines ( not an exageration ). He didn't have that many lings, but tons of upgraded mutas. I'm guessing he dumped his minerals excess into spines instead of mass lings. Ultimately I pushed with my big army of stalkers + archons, avoiding his spines doomswall, and we base traded. He simply rebuilt his hatcheries in center of his spam wall, while killing off my bases. In the end there was simply too many spines for ANY kind of army to handle, excepting maybe colossi with range.. but colossi with range just don't do too well against mutas, as we all know I could have pushed earlier instead of turtling, but in my experience when you push too soon, you lose too. I just don't really know how to handle that scenario. I had tons of obs to see his harass coming, but he simply contained me, I was good eco/upgrades/tech wise, but still lost.. Oh, and when he reached 200 ( ie. before than me ) he teched to Brood lords. That's another reason I avoided a direct confrontation when I arrived at 200 with my stalkers+archons ball, because BL behind a wall of spines is just impossible to handle.. and even with a MS, I don't think I would have won.
If you base trade against muta, you lose. The only way to win is to attack with a strong enough force to kill his army while leaving at home a strong enough force to kill his army. In other words, you need to double his army strength. The way to do that is storms+blink+gosu multitasking. And you need to keep an obs on his lair so that you have enough time to transition to anti-broodlord when he goes hive.
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I would put 40 cannons in my main base, similar to his spine crawler spam, and than he can come.
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On December 13 2011 08:00 kcdc wrote:
If you base trade against muta, you lose. The only way to win is to attack with a strong enough force to kill his army while leaving at home a strong enough force to kill his army. In other words, you need to double his army strength. The way to do that is storms+blink+gosu multitasking. And you need to keep an obs on his lair so that you have enough time to transition to anti-broodlord when he goes hive.
Sure, but that's still not really answering my problem: there are 20 spines in front of my base. He has a moderate lings ball ( like 50-60 ), a huge muta ball upgraded ( like 30 of them, 2/2 ). Would you advise that I push with my stalkers/archons/templars ball into that army plus 20 spines ?
I'm asking how to handle a Zerg who mass spines contain you..
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On December 13 2011 08:26 whereismymind wrote:
I would put 40 cannons in my main base, similar to his spine crawler spam, and than he can come.
Yeah, the Brood lords will come.. and you will cry
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On December 13 2011 19:17 Nyast wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 08:00 kcdc wrote:
If you base trade against muta, you lose. The only way to win is to attack with a strong enough force to kill his army while leaving at home a strong enough force to kill his army. In other words, you need to double his army strength. The way to do that is storms+blink+gosu multitasking. And you need to keep an obs on his lair so that you have enough time to transition to anti-broodlord when he goes hive. Sure, but that's still not really answering my problem: there are 20 spines in front of my base. He has a moderate lings ball ( like 50-60 ), a huge muta ball upgraded ( like 30 of them, 2/2 ). Would you advise that I push with my stalkers/archons/templars ball into that army plus 20 spines ? I'm asking how to handle a Zerg who mass spines contain you..
Zerg shouldn't be able to get a spine wall right in front of your base. Usually it should be in some central defensive location on their side of the map. If it does happen that Zerg gets creep all the way to your base and plants spines there, you might have already lost because that means he's probably also taken every base on the map, but here are some ideas.
Option 1: Kill the spines with immortals+stalker+zealot with storm support. Immortals don't shoot up, but spines don't die without them.
Option 2: Blink an attack force of stalkers around the spine crawlers and support your attack force with a warp prism of HT.
From the sounds of it, Z was able to get a million mutas to contain you, creep up to your base, a giant spine crawler wall, and enough economy and time to make a broodlord transition. If that's the case, you need to find a way to start applying pressure sooner. If you post a replay, we can take a look.
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Thanks, I'll try to find the replay. It was a few days ago so now it's a bit blurry in my memory, but from what I recall it was on Nezarim Crypt, he was on the bottom right and I was on the top right.. and on this map, the distance between his natural to mine isn't exactly huge.
I guess the trick would have been to prevent creep spread, but remains the question: how do you apply pressure back when he's flying mutas left & right in your base ? It's not like he advanced his spines wall in one step either. Originally he started with 3-4 spines in defense in his natural, but instead of making lings he just kept on to adding spines. My first observers went on the surroundings of my base to see the mutas harass coming, so I didn't get the chance to scout what was going on around his natural until too late.. when there was already like 10-15 of them. At this point, there's no way I can pass that wall without heavy immortal or colossi support, and all my ressources went into blink stalkers and archons.
At some point he made a massive attack with 30-35 mutas into my main. I had to use all of my blink stalkers to survive. We basically traded armies at this point. I saved all my original sentries/zealots/archons, but he instantly repopped 20-25 mutas, and I still had no answer to the mass spines.. 
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This is a good guide, but most of it seems like common sense
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Playing versus mass muta is just pain(well if we play macro game, they always go mass muta, otherwise cheese or somthn).
I have a question about positions.. I had 3 bases on tal'darim. Problem is third and main.. If I leave half army in natural and half in third isn't that suicide if mass muta comes? I can only imagine to have 2ht's per mineral with half stalkers, ... But HONESTLY mark my words... It is very very very hard to hit mutas with strom, so easy to dodge and come back and decimate my half stalker army...
I lost my nerves yesterday against zerg.. Did everything well, harrashed with DTs, until he just made spores + overseers in 5 seconds...
Than I couldn't do anything since his mutas were just holding me in my base.
I heard kcdc said some good things about HT harrash with prism.. Nice suggestion. But this is even more APM required versus muta play, and I am only poor diamond.
What say you guys?
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Today I was in a game of PvZ and he went Mutaling. I went for blink and HT like you said and got a third base, but he was still able to beat me. I had 4 cannons at my natural and a high templar. he was able to one shot the cannons and then avoid the storm, and then proceed to kill all of my probes. All of this happened before my blink stalkers could get there. What more is there one can do?
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EPT
