WCS[G] PvZ Dealing with Muta - Page 10
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iamke55
United States2805 Posts
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tehemperorer
United States2182 Posts
On December 27 2011 07:18 Pure656 wrote: Today I was in a game of PvZ and he went Mutaling. I went for blink and HT like you said and got a third base, but he was still able to beat me. I had 4 cannons at my natural and a high templar. he was able to one shot the cannons and then avoid the storm, and then proceed to kill all of my probes. All of this happened before my blink stalkers could get there. What more is there one can do? Sounds like he was allowed to macro up while you were scrambling on defense. Maybe take a look at your opener? I know that I have 2 timing windows before 3base mutas come out that either win the game if he goes muta or significantly delay it while I get phoenixes and +1 air up. I believe ground vs muta can only go so far. Since your ground to air units don't stack on top of each other, there is logically a point where air units can beat ground no matter how good those ground units are against air. | ||
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Skyro
United States1512 Posts
On December 27 2011 07:18 Pure656 wrote: Today I was in a game of PvZ and he went Mutaling. I went for blink and HT like you said and got a third base, but he was still able to beat me. I had 4 cannons at my natural and a high templar. he was able to one shot the cannons and then avoid the storm, and then proceed to kill all of my probes. All of this happened before my blink stalkers could get there. What more is there one can do? I find it better to storm when mutas stop to shoot as when they shoot they stop and have to re-accelerate again and take more storm damage. If you try to predict which direction mutas are going and storm there it's a crapshoot. Most of the time if I get in the situation where I'm being contained on 3-base if I get 2 or 3 solid storms to put their muta clump in the red I feel comfortable pushing out before a max army as they will not want to engage your army with mutas in the red. Then just cannon up like mad for the eventual base race. | ||
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skatbone
United States1005 Posts
He went lair on 2-base then dropped a spire and took a third. You said that you didn't play well so maybe it isn't worth discussing. However, I routinely see a similar build in diamond. The power of it comes from my inability to pin him on a fast spire as he could be going muta, infestor, hydra, or baneling. You scouted the spire with your obs and had to cancel the robo bay. In games similar to this--where a zerg goes fast lair into spire into third base, I find that I tend to lose if I tech incorrectly or fail to take the fast third that this thread recommends. If he was going 2-base hydra or mass roach, I don't think I could hold a fast third. It's the uncertainty of 2-base-lair tech coupled with the lack of fast third when I FFE that gives me problems. Do you advise dropping the 3rd as soon as you scout 2-base spire even if you haven't scouted a 3rd base yet? This just seems like such an insecure-mae-or-break timing for toss. tl;dr Over the last few months I've seen a lot of blue posters argue that 2-base muta is crap. While it might theoretically be crap, I struggle with it at diamond level due to the ambiguity of a fast lair (I send probes and zels to their death in an effort to determine the tech)--if it is mutas and I've gone colossus, I struggle. If it is hydras and I've gone blink, I struggle. If I take a third against hydra or mass roach or ling/infestor, I struggle. | ||
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snively
United States1158 Posts
should i try to hit the mutas around the edges, or just blow the whole thing on my entire armmy? | ||
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polishedturd
United States493 Posts
On December 30 2011 10:31 snively wrote: where do i place my storms if the mutas are right over my army? should i try to hit the mutas around the edges, or just blow the whole thing on my entire armmy? turn on flyer helper in your options edit/ misread your question sorry, please disregard | ||
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Feos
Germany71 Posts
and to the other one: if he has that many mutas that he can 1 shot cannons, obviously 4 cannons arent enough. if you have 3 bases and build nothing but HTs/blinkstalker, you will accumulate a big amount of minerals. just build a ridiculous amount of cannons.. np if 1 HT isnt enough add another 1 or 2? ofc they can dodge but they WILL take damage every time they try to engage. if your observers are in a good position you can even storm the mutas the moment they fly in to harass. and place your storms over your army... who cares? ^^ shields regen quite fast getting his mutas low is more important | ||
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Tazerenix
Australia340 Posts
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Flonomenalz
Nigeria3473 Posts
On January 01 2012 19:12 Tazerenix wrote: When you are at the point where the zerg takes an early third which you try and pressure (with a 6gate/stargate/zealot pressure) and you can't deal enough damage to kill the third, but not specifically putting you behind (eg not losing sentries or not losing void) and then move into a late game where the zerg manages to get anywhere up to 50 mutalisks whilst literally taking every single base on the map and building a good 60-70 spine crawlers, what the fuck do you do? This happened to me once today, where once I finally secured my third the zerg player was beginning to mass up mutas, and eventually reached the count of 51. He made about 50 spines and even after I went for a big colossus push (using the colossus to take out spines without taking damage) because he had every base and there was no way I could pressure him in any way before maxed (as he had 50 mutalisks) he remaxed once on ultralisks. Then again on ultralisk infestor, then again on lings, then again on mutalisks. I tried to be as cost efficient as possible but it at the point where your opponent has that much money and that many spines, even when on 3 mining bases I just can't see a way of winning. I can post a replay if needed. No offense dude, really, but I've never seen a single game outside of bronze or silver league where a person makes 50 spines, or even above 20. Post rep. | ||
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Feos
Germany71 Posts
its pretty common for zerg to spam spines once they have gathered mass resources and need supply | ||
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Skyro
United States1512 Posts
-Good rule of thumb is you need ~1:1 ratio of Stalkers to Mutas in a straight up Stalker vs. Muta engagement -You mention upgrades and double forge as a possibility that you haven't fully explored. I feel grabbing double forges is very effective vs. zerg in general but in particular vs. muta/ling. Personally I go for very fast upgrades, going +1 weapons, +1 armor, then +2 and +3 weapons. I usually try to get my 2nd forge around when I grab my 3rd (since you need the extra gas income from a 3rd base to really afford double upgrades) and research +3 weapons and grab +1 shields from my 2nd forge, which should line-up around when +3 weapons finishes. Then I concurrently research 2/2 and 3/3 armor/shields together. | ||
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Ada
Germany150 Posts
On December 27 2011 07:23 iamke55 wrote: Artosis seems to win vs mutas every time. He takes an early 3rd base and gets blink, but spends a lot of minerals on cannons. When the Zerg tries to go for a base trade, Artosis just spams cannons and gateways at one of his bases and leaves templars there, while giving up all of his other bases. I try this as well, that's pretty good imo. | ||
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AirbladeOrange
United States2300 Posts
That definitely sounds like whining. When the zerg seems to be everywhere on the map how can I harass? And how can I make my maxed army worthwhile? The guide says to move out when maxed but I still find that my army will get slowed down by spines and picked apart by the zerg who is able to remake units so much faster. | ||
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Nyast
Belgium554 Posts
On January 01 2012 19:31 Flonomenalz wrote: No offense dude, really, but I've never seen a single game outside of bronze or silver league where a person makes 50 spines, or even above 20. Post rep. Happens all the time at mid/high master's level. In fact, I believe the metagame has shifted from "muta/lings" to "muta/spines". Zergs have finally understood that mid/end-game lings do little damage, especially when you already have storm, so they dump excess minerals into spines. On some maps, all important Zerg expos can be defended by strategically placing spines at the right location on the map. For ex. on Shattered Temple, between the gold and the map center there are two pathways. 20 spines at each and good luck for passing with a ground army. I've had moderate success with a mothership, recalling into Zerg's main, and protecting my expos with mass canons for the unavoidable base trade, but it's still damn hard  | ||
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Josh_rakoons
United Kingdom1157 Posts
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[]Phase[]
Belgium872 Posts
I know a lot of tosses see it as very imba, but you have to understand, most zergs go heavy muta because roach / hydra /corruptor... Well lets say its just suck. Just like most protosses g ofor deathball like stuff, zergs go for something that deals with that deathball. Toss ppl : look at it from a zerg point of view for once, a deathball is ShitScary, it is no surprise that zergs try everything they can to bypass / get into a different game. With what toss has, I feel like it still is pretty balanced. | ||
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RadioNights
Australia5 Posts
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Melonator
Canada13 Posts
Thanks a lot for the guide! | ||
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Beijerinator
Sweden7 Posts
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Skyro
United States1512 Posts
On January 19 2012 00:03 Melonator wrote: When you say that opening double stargate should be a BO win, does that still apply today? My standard PvZ opening is FFE -> double stargate for the exact purpose of deterring muta play, but lately I've still been getting hit by mass mutas (even chronoing 2 phoenix at a time just doesn't keep up as you said.) To make this a BO win, should I just do some kind of 4-5 gate, double star phoenix all-in or how do I move forward from here? Thanks a lot for the guide! Hard to say w/o seeing a replay. I assume it is probably because he was up on bases and was able to pump an overwhelming amount of mutas through his economy. Double Stargate is a build order win if you can wipe out the muta pack (cost effectively) with Phoenix, however a lot of Zergs will often hide their mutas in their base when they see Phoenix in an attempt to outmass any Phoenixes out on the field. Main thing is you just need good scouting of what they are doing, and know when you can engage. For example usually zerg expands (or even double expands) after his first pack of mutas are out because of the map control afforded to them by mutas (which phoenixes in equal numbers negate), so that would be an example of a good time to attack. | ||
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