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Nerdrage293
Canada12 Posts
http://blip.tv/day9tv/ahgl-microsoft-vs-ea-game-1-week-1-starcraft-2-5904725 What could the protoss player could have done better other than getting a third faster? Would getting a third faster greatly increase his chances of winning the game? I mean, he had blink, Templar Archives got sniped along with everything else, it just feels so helpless because stalkers seem so slow vs muta :\ Edit: Maybe faster scout with halluc and early aggression might have won him the game? | ||
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AfricanPsycho
South Africa158 Posts
On February 02 2012 15:01 ETisME wrote: they still kill zerg right at the spot. But there are more builds that are designed to deal with these x gate all-in and then transition to 3 bases muta along So its not a consistant option in ur opinion then? Would you reccommend I steer away from the "just go fucking kill him" solution? I really don't wanna be allining if I know I beak him 50% I need more like 95% to justify it. | ||
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Skyro
United States1512 Posts
On February 02 2012 14:23 AfricanPsycho wrote: Way back in season 1 everyone used to say the reponse to muta was to "kill them before they get those damn rascles in the air". The general consensus was that if you lose to muta ur bad cus you didnt kill him for going muta. Now I don't know whether its a change in the meta-game or if zerg have just found out a way to hold gateway timings with muta, but I never see this kind of advice anymore.. Do gateways timing not work vs muta nowadays, eg is a 6gate +1 still a BO win vs muta, or is it more complex nowadays?? The reason it isn't said much nowadays is because back in S1 zerg players teched straight to mutas and a 6 or 7 gate push could just roll them unless it was a map with an easily defendable natural and they made a ton of spines. Nowadays the vast majority of zergs go for a fast 3rd into roaches and then tech to mutas when they feel they can get away with it. There is always a soft timing where zerg is pooling up resources while the spire is building to make his first batch of mutas which you can exploit if you scout it and have the army/production to punish it, but the fact zergs rarely straight tech to mutas and get roaches let's them better hide when this soft timing is. | ||
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skatbone
United States1005 Posts
On February 02 2012 15:17 Nerdrage293 wrote: Ok, so I came here right after I saw this game: http://blip.tv/day9tv/ahgl-microsoft-vs-ea-game-1-week-1-starcraft-2-5904725 What could the protoss player could have done better other than getting a third faster? Would getting a third faster greatly increase his chances of winning the game? I mean, he had blink, Templar Archives got sniped along with everything else, it just feels so helpless because stalkers seem so slow vs muta :\ Edit: Maybe faster scout with halluc and early aggression might have won him the game? Yea, RSVP's guide was written primarily to help deal with 3 base muta. This game is 2 base muta and a number of us, including KCDC most recently, have been inquiring about an approach to 2base lair builds in general. The difficulty isn't necessarily the mutas. Rather, it's scouting muta vs hydra vs infestor in time to respond correctly. I have seen VileYong get hallucination when he does not see a fast 3rd and then to attack of 4gates while throwing down 2 more (a 6 gate) when he scouts the spire. | ||
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BlazeTSR
United States218 Posts
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Wren
United States745 Posts
I'd like to replicate it on Liquipedia. RSVP, is that alright with you? edit: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Anti-Muta_Play_(PvZ) Edit whatever needs it! | ||
ZeromuS
Canada12816 Posts
On February 03 2012 01:04 skatbone wrote: Yea, RSVP's guide was written primarily to help deal with 3 base muta. This game is 2 base muta and a number of us, including KCDC most recently, have been inquiring about an approach to 2base lair builds in general. The difficulty isn't necessarily the mutas. Rather, it's scouting muta vs hydra vs infestor in time to respond correctly. I have seen VileYong get hallucination when he does not see a fast 3rd and then to attack of 4gates while throwing down 2 more (a 6 gate) when he scouts the spire. see, I have problems with this response. While yes, dealing with 2 base lair tech generally means an early third is hard to hold vs anything not 2 base muta I feel if you scout a spire you should expand and prepare for mutas. Simple as that. versus mutas you need 6 gas and its easier to take that nexus earlier than later. 2 base muta and 3 base muta is the same IMO if you want a macro game. Now this being said if you see super fast muta without a roach warren and few spine crawlers then a 6 gate makes sense. sadly this is rarely the case nowadays | ||
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skatbone
United States1005 Posts
On February 05 2012 12:11 ZeromuS wrote: see, I have problems with this response. While yes, dealing with 2 base lair tech generally means an early third is hard to hold vs anything not 2 base muta I feel if you scout a spire you should expand and prepare for mutas. Simple as that. versus mutas you need 6 gas and its easier to take that nexus earlier than later. 2 base muta and 3 base muta is the same IMO if you want a macro game. Now this being said if you see super fast muta without a roach warren and few spine crawlers then a 6 gate makes sense. sadly this is rarely the case nowadays I advocate the fast third as well. But I wish this was a little bit less of a roll of the dice. I've designed my build around this very awkwardness--the scout of his tech often comes the right at the time that the tech yields units. I've been scouting with a warp prism ASAP. What I find difficult is that it sometimes takes me (with prism or obs) a minute to find his tech and on other occasions, spores deny the scout. In other words, the decision to take a third, in my experience, often has to happen before you are secure on what the tech is. So for now, I'm just trying to get better at scouting and at hammering out my build while taking any early third and suffering the consequences if he breaks my third. I'd rather have a fast third in ZvP anyhow. But yes, I agree with you. I can't beat muta builds without 6 gas. | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
Random thoughts: - a handful of range-upgraded phoenixes won't save you from 50 mutas, so you need to start phoenix production reasonably early to make it work - pre-beacon phoenixes (except in the case of double stargate opening) will still die to mutas, so the fleet beacon needs to come as a quick response to spire - phoenix vs muta kiting will be more effective (read: possible), but it will still require 100% of the player's focus for long periods, preventing the player from macroing - stargate + fleet beacon + range upgrade + half dozen phoenixes is a huge investment in anti-air, especially considering that it can be a challenge to defend a third base even with a committed anti-roach composition So what would a build that relies on range-upgraded phoenixes as a response to mutas look like? - FFE -> zealot void pressure at Z's third with follow-up phoenix(es) for scouting - take third and produce immortals (later colossi) and a round of sentries; if spire, continue phoenix production, add fleet beacon and at least 1 cannon at each base - upgrade phoenix range and chase down mutas taking care to avoid infestors - get a 4th base and a mothership Would that work? Does that die to roaches? Does it die to mutas? Is it any better than getting cannons, blink and storm and letting Z double you in bases? | ||
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Skyro
United States1512 Posts
On February 11 2012 04:28 kcdc wrote: Anyone have thoughts on how a phoenix range 6 upgrade on fleet beacon might be useful vs mutas? I'm personally having some trouble picturing how it would be used. Random thoughts: - a handful of range-upgraded phoenixes won't save you from 50 mutas, so you need to start phoenix production reasonably early to make it work - pre-beacon phoenixes (except in the case of double stargate opening) will still die to mutas, so the fleet beacon needs to come as a quick response to spire - phoenix vs muta kiting will be more effective (read: possible), but it will still require 100% of the player's focus for long periods, preventing the player from macroing - stargate + fleet beacon + range upgrade + half dozen phoenixes is a huge investment in anti-air, especially considering that it can be a challenge to defend a third base even with a committed anti-roach composition So what would a build that relies on range-upgraded phoenixes as a response to mutas look like? - FFE -> zealot void pressure at Z's third with follow-up phoenix(es) for scouting - take third and produce immortals (later colossi) and a round of sentries; if spire, continue phoenix production, add fleet beacon and at least 1 cannon at each base - upgrade phoenix range and chase down mutas taking care to avoid infestors - get a 4th base and a mothership Would that work? Does that die to roaches? Does it die to mutas? Is it any better than getting cannons, blink and storm and letting Z double you in bases? Well theoretically, I believe the Phoenix range upgrade would only be for builds that already incorporate the early stargate, like the +1 void ray timing you mention. I think the greatest benefit would be dervied on maps where it is hard to utilize blink stalkers to defend your bases due to map layout, such as TDA where it is very easy to harass b/w the 3rd and main. This is because you should have already secured your 3rd before this upgrade would even complete. On maps like TDA where you have to split your stalkers up to defend 3 bases, there is a tipping point where the muta pack gets too large to handle with split up stalkers, and it may be possible to supplement split stalkers with upgraded phoenix to deal with this but that remains to be seen. To me it seems you would have to continually whittle down their muta pack every time they harass for this to be viable. Also I think its secondary benefit would be that once you get the upgrade the Protoss would now have a much higher probability of winning any base race scenario as you could whittle down a muta flock eventually with good micro. Practically however I remain skeptical. The Fleet Beacon is friggin' expensive. It costs as much as a Colossus, and who knows how much the upgrade will cost and the time it will take to research. I really wish they also took a look at the Carrier in this patch, it could definitely use some tweaking, particularly the build time (2 mins to build? Are you kidding me?). If the Carrier was tweaked a bit, going Phoenix into Carrier could become a viable strat vs Mutas into Broodlords. | ||
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ticklishmusic
United States7839 Posts
But I feel like having the range upgrade on the cyber core would make it a lot more useful. Fleet beacon is so expensive and takes so long to build... I think that coupling a good amount of Phoenix with carriers might make for a pretty good midgame composition though. If you're going for airplay, theoretically you start making phoenix before Zerg makes mutas or hydras. If you can amass a decent amount of phoenix, a phoenix/ carrier/chargelot composition will probably beat anything Zerg can throw at you. Someone is going to have to figure out a BO though. | ||
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chestnutcc
India429 Posts
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Berailfor
425 Posts
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Tazerenix
Australia340 Posts
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Treehead
999 Posts
On February 11 2012 04:28 kcdc wrote: Anyone have thoughts on how a phoenix range 6 upgrade on fleet beacon might be useful vs mutas? I'm personally having some trouble picturing how it would be used. Random thoughts: - a handful of range-upgraded phoenixes won't save you from 50 mutas, so you need to start phoenix production reasonably early to make it work - pre-beacon phoenixes (except in the case of double stargate opening) will still die to mutas, so the fleet beacon needs to come as a quick response to spire - phoenix vs muta kiting will be more effective (read: possible), but it will still require 100% of the player's focus for long periods, preventing the player from macroing - stargate + fleet beacon + range upgrade + half dozen phoenixes is a huge investment in anti-air, especially considering that it can be a challenge to defend a third base even with a committed anti-roach composition So what would a build that relies on range-upgraded phoenixes as a response to mutas look like? - FFE -> zealot void pressure at Z's third with follow-up phoenix(es) for scouting - take third and produce immortals (later colossi) and a round of sentries; if spire, continue phoenix production, add fleet beacon and at least 1 cannon at each base - upgrade phoenix range and chase down mutas taking care to avoid infestors - get a 4th base and a mothership Would that work? Does that die to roaches? Does it die to mutas? Is it any better than getting cannons, blink and storm and letting Z double you in bases? I wonder how viable it is to wait that long on the mothership. Spire costs money sure - but pre-emptively getting a fleet beacon, and CBing out the range upgrade so your phoenixes are useful against the mutas in response is a much bigger investment. Would be pretty horrendous if zergs made a practice of going 2-base spire but keeping the infrastructure for roaches and just swarming with roaches. Investing a ton into anti-air would be a complete waste then. On the other hand, if you invest a ton into anti air and then more or less requiring them to have mobile detection to push.... And if it works reasonably well, Mothership + range upgrade with phoenixes (and immortal/gateway?) isn't THAT much more expensive than blink + storm in the early game gaswise. All theorycraft, we don't even know how much the upgrade costs... but just sayin. | ||
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Drowsy
United States4871 Posts
Seriously though. Most of us are not GM level and don't have the mechanics and sense of timing to make 3 base storm+blink turtle work really. Even a lot of the Korean pros are just saying "fuck it, mutas are too hard to deal with, I'm just going to 2 base allin all day every day". It's not that gimmicky and there are a lot of pushes that are still strong even when scouted. | ||
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weikor
Austria577 Posts
On February 11 2012 04:28 kcdc wrote: Anyone have thoughts on how a phoenix range 6 upgrade on fleet beacon might be useful vs mutas? I'm personally having some trouble picturing how it would be used. Random thoughts: - a handful of range-upgraded phoenixes won't save you from 50 mutas, so you need to start phoenix production reasonably early to make it work - pre-beacon phoenixes (except in the case of double stargate opening) will still die to mutas, so the fleet beacon needs to come as a quick response to spire - phoenix vs muta kiting will be more effective (read: possible), but it will still require 100% of the player's focus for long periods, preventing the player from macroing - stargate + fleet beacon + range upgrade + half dozen phoenixes is a huge investment in anti-air, especially considering that it can be a challenge to defend a third base even with a committed anti-roach composition So what would a build that relies on range-upgraded phoenixes as a response to mutas look like? - FFE -> zealot void pressure at Z's third with follow-up phoenix(es) for scouting - take third and produce immortals (later colossi) and a round of sentries; if spire, continue phoenix production, add fleet beacon and at least 1 cannon at each base - upgrade phoenix range and chase down mutas taking care to avoid infestors - get a 4th base and a mothership Would that work? Does that die to roaches? Does it die to mutas? Is it any better than getting cannons, blink and storm and letting Z double you in bases? Im at around 1200 masters EU, im not sure if zergs above that do something drastically different and it stops working. I mainly think the fleet beacon upgrade is good for 3 base + type scenarios where the zerg is essentially trying to basetrade and harass you with a lot of muta. The upgrade will deny most of the mutalisk harass if you have it, players underestimate how corruptors DONT fit in with mutas at all - theyre slow and dont do anything vs ground. If you have observers to see where hes attacking, and 2-3 cannons and archons at your outer bases muta harass will basically do no damage with good phoenix numbers (works now, should work even better later on as well) People also forget that phoenix are useful in pvz anyway. If he changes from mutas and you have 8 phoenix, its not terrible either. You can trade your phoenix for some infestors, you can force spores, kill overlords and harass his economy while scouting him. The fleet beacon is also a key component to pvz lategame, getting a mothership earlier wont hurt either - and carriers are just insane. Its by no means wasted minerals. Ive been experimenting with a quick observer / halluc, to see his tech if hes two basing, and then reactively throwing down 2 stargates if i scout a spire - 4 phoenix, the sentries you made and some stalker will basically kill all the 2 base mutas if you handle it correctly and that will put you in a great position. This might be a little too slow however, ive not had many people try 2 base mutas on me lately | ||
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Arcanefrost
Belgium1202 Posts
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skatbone
United States1005 Posts
On February 19 2012 06:13 Drowsy wrote: I've concluded that the best way to deal with mutalisks is to build 7 gateways with accompanying tech of choice (stargate, robo, blink, or no tech and extra sentries), and attack before the 11 minute mark with 2 bases. Seriously though. Most of us are not GM level and don't have the mechanics and sense of timing to make 3 base storm+blink turtle work really. Even a lot of the Korean pros are just saying "fuck it, mutas are too hard to deal with, I'm just going to 2 base allin all day every day". It's not that gimmicky and there are a lot of pushes that are still strong even when scouted. Having practiced these techniques for 2 months now, I find RSVP's style to work for me at diamond level. Of course it is diamond level mechanics vs diamond level. But it works. I have nice macro games vs mutas constantly now. And my templar control has improved. | ||
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eugalp
United States203 Posts
My problem with defending against muta is that the margin for error is just so low. For the zerg player, even if he losers 2-3 mutas too many, or if they get hurt too much, it's not the end of the world. He can just stop harassing for a little while as his mutas heal up and he gets a bigger ball. For the protoss player, if your stalkers are out of position or your attention slips even for moment, you can be in world of hurt - probes killed, HTs picked off, etc. If you misjudge the size of his muta flock and engage with a group of stalkers too small, you will take unacceptable losses and it will snowball downhill from there. You can spam cannons to be somewhat safe but then he just builds his own great wall of spines crawlers and techs go BL. I think I'll try going all-in from now on. That's what Huk seems to do fairly often these days. | ||
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