[G] PvZ Dealing with Muta

On November 22 2011 01:30 Harstem wrote:
Hi,
Archons aren't really bad, they can be great in battle especially if they go muta/bling/ling they can tank so much bling damage. Another thing I would like to add is if they get like 30 crawlers it wouldnt hurt to get like 1/2 colossus. Colossus also help if they switch into roaches.

On November 22 2011 01:30 Harstem wrote:
Hi,
Archons aren't really bad, they can be great in battle especially if they go muta/bling/ling they can tank so much bling damage. Another thing I would like to add is if they get like 30 crawlers it wouldnt hurt to get like 1/2 colossus. Colossus also help if they switch into roaches.

On November 22 2011 02:00 AA.spoon wrote:
I am gm on eu and will just briefly give some general toughts on the OP:

I highly recommend this thread.

-) Overall: Only learned a few things but the reps are always nice. ZvP mass muta is definately very strong and very popular nowadays. Thanks for the reps! I will check them out.
-) "but builds that blindly mass sentries at the beginning are bad". <- So true. This is one of the reasons why FFE is stronger imo then gateway expand builds, unless you really like hallucination. Protoss is so gas dependant in PvZ; you better think twice before making sentries.
-) I have tried alot of things out the last two months with phoenix but never had satisfying results. Zergs can add 2-3 infestors or a couple of corruptors and he will be fine. Even of two stargates, you won't be able to keep up with the zerg production. Better rely on gateway unit.
-) I kinda came to the same conclusion with archons: they aren't as good as ht. They have small splash, short range, low attack speed.
-) Take your third as fast as possible! You will need the gas. I would say around 9-10 min is good, 11 min okish, 12 min somewhat late.
-) "This is probably my best piece of advice in this entire thread. Observers. Make 4-5+ of them". I strongly disagree with this. On europe they fly there mutas around with an overseer, leting you waste a ton of gas. (Only half of the zerg do this, but the other half should do this and will do this in the future). You can't rely on zerg not making an overseer with his mutas.
-) place your cannons close together, so that the mutas can't engage them one by one.
-) try to find their hidden expoes. It is not uncommon for zergs (with mutas) to take a base where protoss fourth/fifth base should be. Harass them with zealots from pylons or prisms. If they need to pull back their mutas to clean the zelots, its even better cause they won't be harassing in the mean time. dt's are a bit cheesy imo, but if your observers don't spot spores it can be worth it.
-) An advice I didn't found in the OP: make immortals. Immortals counter mutas (yeah I am gm). What I mean is that once you are nearly maxed, adding 4-6 immos is nice because they can clean up 20+ spines easily.
-) zerg transitions: most common seen are : 3 base roach into mutaling, mutaling into roach, mutaling mass spine into infestorbroodlord, mutaling into bling (Koreans do this I observed. haven't seen it on eu but I guess I will see a lot of that in the future.).
-) I think once the mutaball gets big 30+: You need 5 cannons +2 ht at frontier expansions. Storm doesn't do that much damage vs mutas because good players will always dodge and fly out of storms. You must be lucky to get a 80 damage storm vs harassing mutas. A more realistic number is 20-40 per storm if you cast it well.

On November 22 2011 02:10 decaf wrote:
Alright, here's my thoughts as a zerg player: this generally is really good advice. The one thing I don't agree with is stating that archons aren't that good. Sure, if you separate them from your army they suck, but the main point is that they force the mutas to box, and magic boxed mutas suck vs stalkers. But you will have archons anyways when it's important (like moving out) so it shouldn't matter anyways, I just think you kinda overstated it.
The one thing that I dislike about this phoenix-less solution is that you lose mapcontrol entirely. Zerg will mine out 4 bases while you're trying to mine out your third so the zerg is free to throw tons of units at you so you will never be able to max out in the first place - even if you mined the last avaible mineral patch.
Something that's also really important is the timing window before storm is ready. If you lose your templar archives before storm is ready you can consider the game lost.
If phoenixes weren't so bad in the early to mid game I think the best solution would be to open stargate every game. The style you're describing certainly is very good on some maps, but should be harder to pull off on large maps with far away third expansions. I hope this gives many people an idea of how to play vs mutas, though.

Out of curiosity, why not getting a mothership for defense? Move out with your entire army, do severe damage and if he's going for a basetrade recall your whole army. I can imagine it's really hard to get a mothership out in that circumstance, but why not if you can afford it.

On November 22 2011 01:58 JimmiC wrote:
I havn't had time to check this, but do archons with shields upgraded do much better vs mutas? (just thinking with the new cheaper upgrade) and is it more worth while to get those upgrades now?

On November 22 2011 02:22 NrGmonk wrote:
Just change the tag. This is pretty much a guide anyways <.<

Anyways I have just a few comments/things to add.

• You should add something about hugging the cannons so that they cover each other.
  
• It's also really useful to place your initial cannons so that they face the direction mutas will be coming from.
  
• One thing I disagree with you about is spending your minerals into zealots. I much rather prefer spending them into cannons. In the late game, I'll have around an average of 6 cannons per base and sometimes more in my far off expansions. First, I find this lets you have more time for your ht to get into position and aim a storm. In addition, I'd rather be way more safe than sorry. Most of my muta loses come from losing control of a base for a second and then losing a few stalkers and then it eventually snowballs. I also rely more on storm instead of zealots to take care of lings.
  
• You should add something about 3 base muta transitions. For example, If I scout a spire on 3 base when I've already committed to 1 or 2 colossi, I'm always going to pressure as the spire finishes. That way, either the zerg is forced not to make mutas or he makes mutas and dies to my push or he makes corruptors in which case I forcefield off the zerg and retreat back to my base. If you don't do this, you'll find yourself in a situation where you have 2-3 colossi with a gateway army without blink and 12 mutas attacking your probes, which I find is a very hard situation to come out of.

PS. I was gonna do something like this but you beat me to it.
PPS. I already linked this thread from the recommended threads thread.

On November 22 2011 02:41 coL.rsvp wrote:
I mentioned that although attacking off 2 base is a great strat against muta I'm not going to discuss it here.

On November 22 2011 02:44 CecilSunkure wrote:

I don't really get why you'd skip a gigantic portion of why people have problems with Mutas in the first place. As of now this thread won't really apply to most people in as meaningful of a way as if you directly address the problems (I talked about in my other post) most low level players have.

On November 22 2011 02:46 heroofcanton wrote:
There are a lot of really good pushed you can do vs z if he is quick teching to mutas that can punish the crap out of him. I know that if I try and rush mutas there is inevitable like a 6gate push or something and I'm boned.

On November 22 2011 02:41 coL.rsvp wrote:


I added some comments about cannon placement. Thanks.

Regarding cannons, if there's one thing I'm known for in PvZ, it's mass cannons :p My default in standard PvZ is to never make zealot and always mass cannon everywhere, but against mutas I've found it helpful to get some zealots instead of the extra cannons. I guess it just comes down to preference though, I certainly recognize the power of cannons.

I don't have too much experience with attacking 3 base transitions, my usual style is to respond with my own quick 3rd so I'm not going to be in any position to attack or pressure. I suppose if you go 2 base colo you should pressure... but that's a pretty all-in build anyway and I mentioned that although attacking off 2 base is a great strat against muta I'm not going to discuss it here.

On November 22 2011 02:51 coL.rsvp wrote:


This guide is focused on how to react to mutas and play against the style mid-late game. It seems like the problems you mention low-level players have are just basic how to play PvZ early game? What does that have to do with mutas though?

The reason why I don't discuss 2 base attacks against mutas is because I personally don't have much experience with it. If you or someone else has replays/suggestions of how to just kill the zerg if he goes mutas, let me know and I'll add to the OP.

On November 22 2011 01:31 CecilSunkure wrote:
I guarantee you most people have trouble against mutas because they fail to play PvZ properly in the early/mid game, leaving the Z with a huge income disparity in comparison the Protoss. This results in a huge amount of resources dumped into a Muta/Ling army, and that huge amount of resources keeps the Protoss from getting their needed vespene until the Protoss is finally fed up, runs out into the middle of the map in a last ditch attempt to death roll across the map where they get obliterated by Muta/Ling.

Happened in every student replay of mine where "Muta/Ling" was a concern.

On November 22 2011 02:30 decaf wrote:
Oh right, I didn't read point 7, because I never transition out of mutas~~
I think TD for instance has a pretty far away third, the distance from your main to your third is actually huge. Also I don't think getting a 4th is a realistic point of view. I have played dozens of ZvPs with this style and beat several GMs easily and I don't think anyone has ever been able to get a 4th up when I play my muta style. That's why I'm talking about mining out bases, a 4th just spreads you too thin in my opinion.
Well, about the part with the stalkers winning over mutas, it's just too much theorycrafting since stalkers should never be able to catch mutas unless they're flying away or clearly too many to handle.

Blink stalker HT is the best unit comp vs it, though. Have you seen the crazymoving vs hero game? I think it displays it very well. Hero defends perfectly almost thoughout the game and still has a hard time holding onto the game.

I especially like the part where you mention the excessive use of observers, best piece of advice in there

On November 22 2011 02:55 NrGmonk wrote:


Probably don't want to discuss it here but 2 base colossi builds don't always have to be allin. I used to think the same thing, but recently I've adopted a solid, reaction-based Mana/JYP style that involves fast robo, warp prism harass, and generally a 12-13 minute expand.

On November 22 2011 02:30 Geiko wrote:
Everytime I read something written by Anihc I think to myself "wow, this guy has the same ideas I have !". Then I realize that my ideas are generally what I've copied off of him because he always gives such good advice <3.


There are a couple of things in your guide that you haven't talked about and that I'd love clarification on though.

-) This Guide seems to be on how to react to mutas once you discover that Z has them as they fly in your base. You've hinted that there are other things viable if you scout the spore being morphed etc... (like double stargate phoenix if you start phoenix production before them). Are there any other ways to react ? Cecil suggested a timing attack before the mutas pop out, how viable do you think this is, and what type of timing would you recommend ?

(edit : ok diregard this first point, missed the first paragraph :S)

-) Upgrades. You say 1 or 2 forge, attack and armor, but do we get attack first to kill off mutas faster, or armor to not die to lings and glaives so fast ? And, especially with the new patch should shield upgrades come into play ?

-) I had the same concern as spoon with good zergs flying overseers around your base with the mutas. I've started getting a stargate anyway (gonna need one anyway for my late game mothership) and getting a couple of phoenixes to scout around my base. How viable do you think it is compared to observers if you have the apm to babysit them ?

On November 22 2011 02:59 CecilSunkure wrote:

It has to do with Mutas probably because it's really hard for someone to realize just how far behind they are when they play against a Muta/Ling player because all those Mutas and Lings sorta stack together really easily. If you play against a bunch of Roaches, then it's easy to see just how many roaches and just how far ahead your opponent was when you lost.

You don't have to talk about attacking off of 2 bases specifically, but it's like I said in my other post:

Basically they let the Zerg get too many drones by playing really badly, the Zerg makes a load of Mutas, and they think "Man Mutas are really hard to deal with" -> they interpret Mutas as the problem rather than attributing it to their bad play.

On November 22 2011 03:10 coL.rsvp wrote:


Ok, I agree with everything you've said but I still don't see how that has anything to do with defending against mutas? Maybe you're suggesting that I should put some kind of disclaimer to this discussion/guide that it's only applicable to higher level players?

On November 22 2011 03:47 Geiko wrote:



I have. They just get killed when I'm not paying attention

Wondering if it could work with someone more careful then I am.

I think I'll try Harstem's idea rather. Hallucinated phoenix sound less risky.

On November 22 2011 03:52 mizU wrote:
Don't you want to not have cannons touching to reduce splash?

On November 22 2011 03:18 CecilSunkure wrote:

Oh I see what you mean.

Okay so I've had a lot of lessons with a lot of students. Every time "Muta Ling" comes up as a topic, I end up actually addressing their bad play instead of the Mutas specifically. This is because Mutas are really easy to blame as a problem during a game instead of a Protoss actually playing bad. So then people will open this thread, see good advice, and then try it in their games and lose anyways, because they simply are playing bad.

So I'd suggest writing something like:

• Mutas shouldn't be accessible by a Zerg player in un-manageable numbers too early unless a Protoss is highly passive.
  
• Knowing this, a good Protoss will not let a Zerg bank enough resources to suddenly explode with many Mutas too early.
  
• Many people suffering from "Mutalisks" are really suffering from highly passive and in general bad PvZ play.
  
  • If you let a Zerg make too many drones freely, they will often times make a large Muta ball that you cannot actually deal with unless you played equally as greedy.
  
  
• Playing more active and with proper PvZ will result in a manageable Muta Ball, to which the rest of the guide applies.

I'd try to write a little more but I got class now and gotta run.

On November 22 2011 04:24 kcdc wrote:


I dunno man. In my experience and in a lot of pro games that I've seen, Z can safely get a lot of mutas out even if P plays well. P can slow it down with pressure, and if P's build is designed for pressure at the right times, that's even better. But it seems to me that Zergs have largely learned how to deal with 2-base pressure (usually defending with roaches and switching to mutas once they're safe), and that preventing muta balls from ever being built is no longer a reliable option. Good all-ins can work, but a good Protoss player also needs to know how to play macro vs muta.

On November 22 2011 05:24 ZeromuS wrote:


Yeah I agree. I rarely see Pros win against Muta play and if I do its with some sort of all in before the muta ball gets completely unmanageable.

CecilSunkure said:
Mutas shouldn't be accessible by a Zerg player in un-manageable numbers too early unless a Protoss is highly passive.

CecilSunkure said:
Knowing this, a good Protoss will not let a Zerg bank enough resources to suddenly explode with many Mutas too early.

On November 22 2011 06:44 samthesaluki wrote:
so what if the zerg has a lots of spines up at his bases how do you pressure enough to stop muta ball because usually when i ffe vs zerg they have mutas by tiime my 2nd base gets fully going.

On November 22 2011 07:02 Xequecal wrote:


Some Zerg will not take the third, and muta off two bases to try and catch you without units, and/or hope you can't micro against them without blink.

On November 22 2011 05:58 CecilSunkure wrote:

I'm not talking about Macro Muta... -.-



Sort of feel like nobody is really listening to what I'm saying.




I'm clearly not talking about pro players or pro games, I'm addressing a problem that I see. This is coming from empathy of how low level players play, think, and come onto the forums and think. This means if someone new to the forums or SC2 comes in here and reads the thread, they'll probably get a bunch of great advice that they simply can't apply -and they won't even know it unless they read my posts.

Sorry if it sounds like I'm making a big deal out of all this, but I just feel really terrible knowing people are going to get confused or miss important info when the solution to the problem is really as simple as pointing out: Muta numbers should always be manageable if you don't let a Zerg opponent run free for 13 minutes. If you let a decent Zerg run free for too long, it doesn't matter what tactics or strategies you use, as there will simply be too big of an income disparity from improper play to make a difference.

On November 22 2011 07:55 NrGmonk wrote:

Why don't you write a section regarding what you mean and then rsvp can decide if he wants to add it to his guide.

On November 22 2011 05:58 CecilSunkure wrote:

I'm not talking about Macro Muta... -.-



Sort of feel like nobody is really listening to what I'm saying.




I'm clearly not talking about pro players or pro games, I'm addressing a problem that I see. This is coming from empathy of how low level players play, think, and come onto the forums and think. This means if someone new to the forums or SC2 comes in here and reads the thread, they'll probably get a bunch of great advice that they simply can't apply -and they won't even know it unless they read my posts.

Sorry if it sounds like I'm making a big deal out of all this, but I just feel really terrible knowing people are going to get confused or miss important info when the solution to the problem is really as simple as pointing out: Muta numbers should always be manageable if you don't let a Zerg opponent run free for 13 minutes. If you let a decent Zerg run free for too long, it doesn't matter what tactics or strategies you use, as there will simply be too big of an income disparity from improper play to make a difference.

On November 22 2011 03:33 SoKHo wrote:
I'm only in high masters, but I found that speed warp prisms with HT in them are extremely useful for harassing + defending mutas. If the mutas spot the warp prism and tries to snipe the warp prism, I can drop a ht or 2 and storm them. Also, storming mineral lines and getting +20 drone kills helps a lot when your stuck in your base defending mutas.

On November 22 2011 04:14 matrius wrote:
Thanks alot for the post, definitely some stuff in there that will help me out!

Few comments:
1) Whenever I play against this, I always feel like I'm scrambling, which kinda messes up my game. But, hopefully I can play better next time with your advice
2) I find zergling runby's to be extremely difficult - in your first replay you had 5 cannons at your 3rd, and they just took them out easily, while killing the HT before you could react, and destroying your third which is a great deal for the zerg (all minerals, and now protoss can't get gas). I'm wondering if there is something more we could do in this area of defending expansions. Better sim city? Perhaps doing an almost complete wallin with a HT inside? Then blocking the last remaining space with probes so they can get in when attacking? If there was only one space through which to get probes, the zerglings would die off pretty quick as the ran single file in...
3) Along with some zealots, I'm wondering if a couple of colossi would be helpful to take care of zerglings/broodlings? No need for the range upgrade. You didn't seem to need immortals for the spine crawlers, and I think micro'd blink stalkers work well vs the spine crawlers anyway.
4) Have you ever made like 8 DT and then just took out an expansion and then run home to change into archons?

As well, I think you are right and should perhaps emphasize - its more import to get your 3rd as protoss than for the zerg to lose one of his expansions.

Sigh, it really seems like protoss have to work harder to defend this style than any other really...

Cheers!

On November 22 2011 05:38 Skyro wrote:
Perhaps you should add a screenshot of how to actually storm mutas/air units? Some people may not realize you actually have to storm at the dots below the mutas. I also think it's worth mentioning that you aren't advocating a purely passive game, and that putting pressure on the zerg can often force the zerg to make defenses (especially roaches) which delays mutas.

I think most people who have issues with mutas either are too passive initially so zerg can get mutas out super fast, and/or they incorrectly assess when they can push out. For me personally, when I feel forced to push out it's less of a "mutas harass is too hard to deal with" and more of a "he's powering his economy to a level where I must end this now" type of mentality.

Also what do you think about DT play instead of HT? I've had some mixed success by using DTs to deny mass expansions long enough to mass an army to push out. Then you can morph DTs into archons to strengthen your push.

On November 22 2011 11:36 Xaeldaren wrote:
Could you address using Stargate play to pre-empt Mutalisks? I open Stargate in my PvZ as a form of early game harassment, to force Hydralisks and to ward my opponent away from Mutalisks because of my early Phoenix count. Is this viable way to play?

(Apologies if this is unrelated as this thread is about dealing with the Mutalisks when they're actually out).

(Disclaimer: I'm a Platinum Protoss so I know I'm terrible.)

On November 22 2011 13:14 Jonas wrote:
Awesome OP, thanks for writing that up, rsvp.

Question: since muta/ling can basically go anywhere they want, you will not be able to defend all of your bases at once when your army moves out (I have a hard enough time defending all of my bases when my army is in my base, lol). So in what order should you try to save your bases when the zerg does inevitably go for a base trade? Is saving your tech tree more important than saving your mining bases? Should I preemptively build key tech structures at my expansion? if so when?

On November 22 2011 13:51 Purupururin wrote:
My current build vs Zerg is to go FFE --> Stargate 1 voidray (to defend any 2 base all ins) and the rest phoenix. I spend constant chrono on the stargate trying to keep this as active as possible while I tech to storm, blink, and expand.

The early phoenixes help buy time vs early mutas or even force the zerg away from muta ling. However, if he contnues to commit, I find that I'll have the templar quickly to defend. I'll stop phoenix production either when I get templar, or when I scout that he isn't doing any muta-age. The phoenix are helpful to me always to look around the map and the voidray I like to patrol around all the towers, so I get a lot of use out of these units,

I like this because it is safe versus anything a zerg can do to you, although 2 base roach hydra all ins can be difficult, but the storms will damage the units enough that you should be able to swiftly clean it up.

Although you say 1 templar per base, I use two. I feel safer, and if one dies, my base is still well defended. After a 1 or 2 storms the mutas are way to fragile.

Also, although you say warp prism, I have a problem using something slower than mutas, while he has so much air control. In fact, I have a problem harassing with anything vs mutas because of the mobility. Would you be okay with loosing a prism and zealots (although they are only minerals) every time you harass? I guess the speed upgrade would be critical if he continues to muta late game although I personally think someone should never go "mass muta."

Also, to continue on with the build above, after I get my third, I like to add 2 robos, for immortals, and an Immortal Stalker templar compisition, but also I like to produce some warp prisms, but with this I could go mass observers. I think what makes more sense is to go 1 robo after the 3rd and keep it super active depending on what he is making. If he continues muta, more observers and warp prisms. If not, you can get a warp prism or two but mostly immortals.

Also, I find a 3rd to be easy to defend while you make it vs any amount of mutas as long as you have defensive HT there. Pretty much wherever your defensive HT are, you are safe vs muta so use this.

Also, why are mass mutas good? Do you really see mass muta in your scene? The fragility of mutas in my opinion make them really weak late game units vs toss. Yeah, you can use late game mutas to counter attack late game just like lings, but if you are going mass muta, then you don't have an army that you can engage with. Defensive HT and the protoss core army is too good.

The phoenixes, is important I think to stop producing after storm. (Well at least this is true for what I do).

What do you think?

On November 22 2011 18:48 sleepingdog wrote:
Cool write-up, just found time to read all that.

What I wanted to comment on is double stargate - some people have mentioned it, but I think it deserves a closer look. If you open double stargate, you normally plan on going for few voidrays and a lot of phoenixes to press a roach-player into hydras. If your opponent has opened spire (with or without roach warren depending on his greed), I am convinced that you do not have to transition into blink immediately, you just have to continue to produce phoenixes. It is a very common misconception that mutas "counter" phoenixes once the numbers grow larger. That is most definitely not the case, I've done extensive testing in the unit-tester on that. Even if you do NOT micro your phoenixes, phoenixes beat mutas cost-efficiently regardless of the supply. The only way the zerg player will be able to overwhelm you is if you let him outmacro you. And now that's the funny thing, if you have opened double stargate, you have COMPLETE MAP CONTROL (!) vs a muta-opener. You can take your third extremely early and wall it off with cannons vs the inevitable mass-llings. Or you can use +1 zealots to bust into their third.

Intelligent zerg players will halt muta-production immediately, because there's no way you should ever get outplayed by mutas with double stargate phoenixes. What they will do is to try to (re-)take aircontrol with corruptors, who happen to counter phoenixes hard...and THEN procede with mutas. Now corruptors are slower than phoenixes and pose no threat to your ground army whatsoever. This - again - means you can take a safe fast 3rd or apply more pressure. Pretty much both can work in this situation depending on your preference and the spawning position.

My overall point: while I completely agree with rsvp on basicly every single build he has mentioned, double stargate indeed is the one build that doesn't require an immediate blink/storm transition.

On November 23 2011 01:30 coL.rsvp wrote:


Haha sorry for the lack of organization in the OP, but I'm sure I mention somewhere that if you had opened double stargate it's almost like an auto-win against mutas because then you just make phoenixes and some gateway units and win. So we agree 100%

On November 23 2011 01:51 Teoita wrote:


Do you feel like you have to open double stargate, or you are fine if you open single stargate and add a second if you scout a spire (and you aren't making colossus)?

On November 23 2011 02:05 coL.rsvp wrote:


Hmm I may have caused some confusion. If you opened double stargate and your opponent goes mutas, you should just be able to win off 2 base with a phoenix/gateway attack. You should not be making 2 gate phoenix and then transitioning into the defensive style that I outline in the OP.

If you open single stargate and your opponent goes mutas, you can continue making 1 gate phoenix and then transition into this guide. However, in my experience, if you wanted to do a 2 base phoenix/gateway attack after you've opened 1 stargate, the 2nd stargate isn't necessary and IMO it's better just to have more gateway units for the attack instead of extra phoenix.

On November 23 2011 02:28 Teoita wrote:


I see. My (possibly silly) idea was that if you open single stargate and scout mutas, you could add a second stargate and get 10-12 ish phoenixes; at that point, you can shoo away his mutas and push out with a gateway army while you force his mutas back by harassing with the phoenixes. Essentially you use your gateway army to attack, and your phoenix to fight the mutas wherever they are. This is however theorycrafting, i just wanted to hear the opinion of a better player

On November 23 2011 04:55 city42 wrote:
I think you did a great job with this guide. Most especially, the part about taking a second expansion early vs. spire is very wise advice. Mutas are a pain in the ass no matter what you do, but playing patiently and defensively with blink + storm gives you a good chance.

If you don't mind, I have a slightly off-topic question: why do you only use a single scout pvz TDA? In the replay against Swing, you seemingly would have been in quite a situation if he were at top right instead of bottom right.

On November 23 2011 05:45 Vapaach wrote:
I agree with most points, but I think that phoenix is the ONLY proper way to deal with mutas as protoss, even if you scout the spire as it is already finished. I will now explain why:

To play against muta with no phoenixes, you need to either:

A) Build a ton of cannons, which will eventually still not be enough if the mutaball grows too high (and you won't be able to take a 3rd)
B) Build lots of blink stalkers, which will not allow you to take a 3rd easily if at all
C) Just go 8-gate all-in or something, which is very likely be countered with mass spine + muta ling basetrade + mass hatch everywhere from z, forcing at least a draw if not a win

I will now answer some questions which might explain why phoenix are completely essential against muta:

Why is it hard/impossible to expand without phoenix?

A: Even with great unit and cannon positioning, you still won't be able to immediately have full defenses wherever the muta/ling attack comes. (obs can get shut down with muta + overseer, which most good zergs do nowadays) You will be able to bring your army wherever you need to eventually, but not before taking damage in your army and/or economy. There simply is no way to defend against muta/ling optimally without phoenix, even with AMAZING positioning and awareness. Even if you manage to expand, the Z can just keep expanding freely and massing mutalisks with the map control the z has, and eventually basetrade you whenever you move out. Obviously you will take some damage from the muta harass, which will make you be even more behind in an already bad position.

Why can't you really win with an all-in attack vs muta?

A: The answer is quite simple = basetrade. Muta/ling is an terrific composition to basetrade with due to it's mobility and high dps. Even if you have a significantly superior army, you will eventually be pinned down to a single pylon/nexus/whatever, and have really no hope of attacking. As long as the zerg was smart enough to bring even 1 drone to mine, you have basically lost. Also, splitting your forces is generally a bad idea and could only work if you have over 2x stronger army than your opponent, and the ability to build a durable proxy structure. Even if you bring probes with you, it is almost inconceivable to end in a situatuon where you have a economy that can rival your opponent's, and even if you somehow do, you will just end up in the same situation as before, but in worse shape than the first time.

Why are cannons a bad idea? Turrets are the way to defend against muta harass as terran..

Besides the obvious points mentioned before, there is also an additional problem with cannons, and that is the fact that they don't benefit from upgrades very much at all. They get no additional damage or armor, which is very problematic as the game goes on. As the muta upgrades start to stack, you will find yourself in a situation where you have to either split your army (causing you to take damage) or spend a TON of minerals to cannons (causing you to have a weaker army).

Personally, I never forge FE and always use hallucination to scout and react with double stargate phoenixes with +1 air and +1 shields upgrading. I think having to blindly go stargate with forge FE vs zerg is quite a terrible setback having to deal with.

On November 23 2011 06:07 Romitelli wrote:
I have a question: what do you do if Zerg flies his mutas directly over your army, should you still storm (maybe blinking the stalkers away)? I mean, if not, you would only be able to get 1 storm off until the mutas are over your doods.

On December 02 2011 07:35 stokes17 wrote:
Yo dood, Sick ass guide seriously, Your point about taking an early third totally busted my skull, very smart thinking sir. I also really like your explanation for why HT> Archon, completely agree. But i have one question:

Can you give any advice on how to aim your storms vs muta ? (yea obviously have flyer spotter assist thingy on) Do you try and just storm where they are, or do you try and lead them? Do you blanket the area to get the dmg out as fast as possible or do you storm slower but as precise as you can. I understand that this is kinda a detailed micro question( even GSL pros have a hard time making storms connect on muta), but I just feel like my storms are extremely bad and would like them to not be that, so any advice would be sick.

Thanks for being an awesome contributor to the community RSVP!!

On December 13 2011 07:15 Flonomenalz wrote:

I think mutas are the same speed or slower than a speed prism.

On December 13 2011 07:24 NrGmonk wrote:

Mutas are slightly faster, by 0.05 iirc. That's why unless you can guarantee a safe trip with your prism via observer positioning or clearing out overlords, a speed prism with 4 templar just seems like way to big a risk.

On December 13 2011 07:43 Nyast wrote:
I have a question. I played a game yesterday against a Zerg, I know the theory and everything, but still couldn't do a damn thing. Here's how it went: I took a very fast third, got some defenses up, quickly teched to blink stalkers and archons, and was able to take only minimal losses while snipping many mutas each time he tried to harass. Everything good so far.

I scout the map a bit later and realize the Zerg has taken half the map as expos, spread his creep almost up to my base.. and made 20-30 spines ( not an exageration ). He didn't have that many lings, but tons of upgraded mutas. I'm guessing he dumped his minerals excess into spines instead of mass lings.

Ultimately I pushed with my big army of stalkers + archons, avoiding his spines doomswall, and we base traded. He simply rebuilt his hatcheries in center of his spam wall, while killing off my bases. In the end there was simply too many spines for ANY kind of army to handle, excepting maybe colossi with range.. but colossi with range just don't do too well against mutas, as we all know

I could have pushed earlier instead of turtling, but in my experience when you push too soon, you lose too. I just don't really know how to handle that scenario. I had tons of obs to see his harass coming, but he simply contained me, I was good eco/upgrades/tech wise, but still lost..

Oh, and when he reached 200 ( ie. before than me ) he teched to Brood lords. That's another reason I avoided a direct confrontation when I arrived at 200 with my stalkers+archons ball, because BL behind a wall of spines is just impossible to handle.. and even with a MS, I don't think I would have won.

On December 13 2011 19:17 Nyast wrote:


Sure, but that's still not really answering my problem: there are 20 spines in front of my base. He has a moderate lings ball ( like 50-60 ), a huge muta ball upgraded ( like 30 of them, 2/2 ). Would you advise that I push with my stalkers/archons/templars ball into that army plus 20 spines ?

I'm asking how to handle a Zerg who mass spines contain you..