[G] PvZ Dealing with Muta - Page 2

On November 22 2011 02:22 NrGmonk wrote:
Just change the tag. This is pretty much a guide anyways <.<

Anyways I have just a few comments/things to add.

• You should add something about hugging the cannons so that they cover each other.
  
• It's also really useful to place your initial cannons so that they face the direction mutas will be coming from.
  
• One thing I disagree with you about is spending your minerals into zealots. I much rather prefer spending them into cannons. In the late game, I'll have around an average of 6 cannons per base and sometimes more in my far off expansions. First, I find this lets you have more time for your ht to get into position and aim a storm. In addition, I'd rather be way more safe than sorry. Most of my muta loses come from losing control of a base for a second and then losing a few stalkers and then it eventually snowballs. I also rely more on storm instead of zealots to take care of lings.
  
• You should add something about 3 base muta transitions. For example, If I scout a spire on 3 base when I've already committed to 1 or 2 colossi, I'm always going to pressure as the spire finishes. That way, either the zerg is forced not to make mutas or he makes mutas and dies to my push or he makes corruptors in which case I forcefield off the zerg and retreat back to my base. If you don't do this, you'll find yourself in a situation where you have 2-3 colossi with a gateway army without blink and 12 mutas attacking your probes, which I find is a very hard situation to come out of.

PS. I was gonna do something like this but you beat me to it.
PPS. I already linked this thread from the recommended threads thread.

On November 22 2011 02:41 coL.rsvp wrote:
I mentioned that although attacking off 2 base is a great strat against muta I'm not going to discuss it here.

On November 22 2011 02:44 CecilSunkure wrote:

I don't really get why you'd skip a gigantic portion of why people have problems with Mutas in the first place. As of now this thread won't really apply to most people in as meaningful of a way as if you directly address the problems (I talked about in my other post) most low level players have.

On November 22 2011 02:46 heroofcanton wrote:
There are a lot of really good pushed you can do vs z if he is quick teching to mutas that can punish the crap out of him. I know that if I try and rush mutas there is inevitable like a 6gate push or something and I'm boned.

On November 22 2011 02:41 coL.rsvp wrote:


I added some comments about cannon placement. Thanks.

Regarding cannons, if there's one thing I'm known for in PvZ, it's mass cannons :p My default in standard PvZ is to never make zealot and always mass cannon everywhere, but against mutas I've found it helpful to get some zealots instead of the extra cannons. I guess it just comes down to preference though, I certainly recognize the power of cannons.

I don't have too much experience with attacking 3 base transitions, my usual style is to respond with my own quick 3rd so I'm not going to be in any position to attack or pressure. I suppose if you go 2 base colo you should pressure... but that's a pretty all-in build anyway and I mentioned that although attacking off 2 base is a great strat against muta I'm not going to discuss it here.

On November 22 2011 02:51 coL.rsvp wrote:


This guide is focused on how to react to mutas and play against the style mid-late game. It seems like the problems you mention low-level players have are just basic how to play PvZ early game? What does that have to do with mutas though?

The reason why I don't discuss 2 base attacks against mutas is because I personally don't have much experience with it. If you or someone else has replays/suggestions of how to just kill the zerg if he goes mutas, let me know and I'll add to the OP.

On November 22 2011 01:31 CecilSunkure wrote:
I guarantee you most people have trouble against mutas because they fail to play PvZ properly in the early/mid game, leaving the Z with a huge income disparity in comparison the Protoss. This results in a huge amount of resources dumped into a Muta/Ling army, and that huge amount of resources keeps the Protoss from getting their needed vespene until the Protoss is finally fed up, runs out into the middle of the map in a last ditch attempt to death roll across the map where they get obliterated by Muta/Ling.

Happened in every student replay of mine where "Muta/Ling" was a concern.

On November 22 2011 02:30 decaf wrote:
Oh right, I didn't read point 7, because I never transition out of mutas~~
I think TD for instance has a pretty far away third, the distance from your main to your third is actually huge. Also I don't think getting a 4th is a realistic point of view. I have played dozens of ZvPs with this style and beat several GMs easily and I don't think anyone has ever been able to get a 4th up when I play my muta style. That's why I'm talking about mining out bases, a 4th just spreads you too thin in my opinion.
Well, about the part with the stalkers winning over mutas, it's just too much theorycrafting since stalkers should never be able to catch mutas unless they're flying away or clearly too many to handle.

Blink stalker HT is the best unit comp vs it, though. Have you seen the crazymoving vs hero game? I think it displays it very well. Hero defends perfectly almost thoughout the game and still has a hard time holding onto the game.

I especially like the part where you mention the excessive use of observers, best piece of advice in there

On November 22 2011 02:55 NrGmonk wrote:


Probably don't want to discuss it here but 2 base colossi builds don't always have to be allin. I used to think the same thing, but recently I've adopted a solid, reaction-based Mana/JYP style that involves fast robo, warp prism harass, and generally a 12-13 minute expand.

On November 22 2011 02:30 Geiko wrote:
Everytime I read something written by Anihc I think to myself "wow, this guy has the same ideas I have !". Then I realize that my ideas are generally what I've copied off of him because he always gives such good advice <3.


There are a couple of things in your guide that you haven't talked about and that I'd love clarification on though.

-) This Guide seems to be on how to react to mutas once you discover that Z has them as they fly in your base. You've hinted that there are other things viable if you scout the spore being morphed etc... (like double stargate phoenix if you start phoenix production before them). Are there any other ways to react ? Cecil suggested a timing attack before the mutas pop out, how viable do you think this is, and what type of timing would you recommend ?

(edit : ok diregard this first point, missed the first paragraph :S)

-) Upgrades. You say 1 or 2 forge, attack and armor, but do we get attack first to kill off mutas faster, or armor to not die to lings and glaives so fast ? And, especially with the new patch should shield upgrades come into play ?

-) I had the same concern as spoon with good zergs flying overseers around your base with the mutas. I've started getting a stargate anyway (gonna need one anyway for my late game mothership) and getting a couple of phoenixes to scout around my base. How viable do you think it is compared to observers if you have the apm to babysit them ?

On November 22 2011 02:59 CecilSunkure wrote:

It has to do with Mutas probably because it's really hard for someone to realize just how far behind they are when they play against a Muta/Ling player because all those Mutas and Lings sorta stack together really easily. If you play against a bunch of Roaches, then it's easy to see just how many roaches and just how far ahead your opponent was when you lost.

You don't have to talk about attacking off of 2 bases specifically, but it's like I said in my other post:

Basically they let the Zerg get too many drones by playing really badly, the Zerg makes a load of Mutas, and they think "Man Mutas are really hard to deal with" -> they interpret Mutas as the problem rather than attributing it to their bad play.

On November 22 2011 03:10 coL.rsvp wrote:


Ok, I agree with everything you've said but I still don't see how that has anything to do with defending against mutas? Maybe you're suggesting that I should put some kind of disclaimer to this discussion/guide that it's only applicable to higher level players?