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so what if the zerg has a lots of spines up at his bases how do you pressure enough to stop muta ball because usually when i ffe vs zerg they have mutas by tiime my 2nd base gets fully going.
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On November 22 2011 06:44 samthesaluki wrote:
so what if the zerg has a lots of spines up at his bases how do you pressure enough to stop muta ball because usually when i ffe vs zerg they have mutas by tiime my 2nd base gets fully going.
Then you should post a replay because that shouldn't happen like that. A ffe has your 2nd base up way before almost any sane mutant build would hit and should be very solid vs ultra risky and rare styles like gas before pool 1 base muta.
Post your replay and we can help.
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On November 22 2011 06:52 vaderseven wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 06:44 samthesaluki wrote:
so what if the zerg has a lots of spines up at his bases how do you pressure enough to stop muta ball because usually when i ffe vs zerg they have mutas by tiime my 2nd base gets fully going. Then you should post a replay because that shouldn't happen like that. A ffe has your 2nd base up way before almost any sane mutant build would hit and should be very solid vs ultra risky and rare styles like gas before pool 1 base muta. Post your replay and we can help.
Some Zerg will not take the third, and muta off two bases to try and catch you without units, and/or hope you can't micro against them without blink.
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On November 22 2011 07:02 Xequecal wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 06:52 vaderseven wrote:On November 22 2011 06:44 samthesaluki wrote:
so what if the zerg has a lots of spines up at his bases how do you pressure enough to stop muta ball because usually when i ffe vs zerg they have mutas by tiime my 2nd base gets fully going. Then you should post a replay because that shouldn't happen like that. A ffe has your 2nd base up way before almost any sane mutant build would hit and should be very solid vs ultra risky and rare styles like gas before pool 1 base muta. Post your replay and we can help. Some Zerg will not take the third, and muta off two bases to try and catch you without units, and/or hope you can't micro against them without blink.
I know.
What I don't know is if this is what that poster was talking about or not. A replay would allow us to say this is why you lost instead having to blind theory craft counter every muta build possible.
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The real key against a muta build is to take the third base as fast as possible. The faster you take it, the better your chances. Of course the earlier you take it the more you risk getting run over by mass burrow-move roaches, so it's a tradeoff. If you make 4 sentries while WG is researching then warp in 4 stalkers on completion and then start the third immediately, you will absolutely crush any form of muta play. A three-base army can be very gas intensive, leaving you plenty of minerals to spam cannons and replace killed probes. The mutalisks can't really stop your gas mining very effectively so eventually you just get an unstoppable 200/200 army and can roll them.
Personally I think defensive storm is a big mistake as you're just playing right into their strategy, they want you to trade off gas because they have so much more of it. If you force them to trade gas for minerals (cannons) eventually you will crush them no matter how many bases they have. If they have 40 mutas out and you have a 200/200 army with a mothership you can kill all their stuff and whatever they remax on after you kill it. If they make 100 spine crawlers just go where those aren't. If they have forests at their expos just go kill the main, they can have infinite resources and it won't matter because when you kill the main they can't build units.
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I don't know how long the zergs you face take to get a muta count that forces you to have splash but I promise you that he can hit that critical number well before you have 200 food. An early 3rd is amazing and I was glad to see someone like rsvp say so as well but HT and storm is amazingly good and so is blink so the obviously synergy in the tech is a huge boost.
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On November 22 2011 07:07 Xequecal wrote:Personally I think defensive storm is a big mistake as you're just playing right into their strategy, they want you to trade off gas because they have so much more of it. If you force them to trade gas for minerals (cannons) eventually you will crush them no matter how many bases they have. If they have 40 mutas out and you have a 200/200 army with a mothership you can kill all their stuff and whatever they remax on after you kill it. If they make 100 spine crawlers just go where those aren't. If they have forests at their expos just go kill the main, they can have infinite resources and it won't matter because when you kill the main they can't build units.
Storm costs time not gas unless you need to replace the HT that casted it. Place your HT in such a way that mutas will have to commit to absorbing 4-5 volleys to snipe your HT and if they try to kill cannons then you can safely storm them to do a lot of damage to large numbers of mutas. One tick of storm on 9 mutas is ~150 gas which would be about break-even if you lost the HT, not counting the gate cooldown cost. If they have 20+ mutas (the point at which you're transitioning from blink stalkers to storm for defense) you're being insanely cost-efficient using an HT and getting the better end of the trade unless they have like 3x your bases mining gas in which case you've already lost or you're playing a map larger than any one I've seen or both.
Also, if a maxed zerg has infinite resources and anticipates to base trade you, they should have multiple hives and multiple tech structures spread around the map so they can continue production if you kill one of their bases. The fact that they do not is a mistake on their part, not a result of the game structure. A zerg can have more than one hive, one spawning pool, and one spire.
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Very nice thread and helpful for my platinum 'toss ^_^
I'm bad with protoss and especially vs mutas. But...
With my master zerg I kill most protoss by a +2 roach timing push while feigning mutas. I just overseer my base and look out for sentries all the time and deny protoss any scouting and rally the roaches into my main. They will have no idea what's coming as their build & gameplan is fucked as soon as they see some few mutas; most protoss I face 2 base colossi and when they switch to blink stalkers, they won't have enough gas to properly counter the roaches. Going for a fast third is cementing their own doom (ofc).
What I'm saying is, zerg doesn't really have to commit to mutas (and lings) and if you don't see the 2/3 mass roach push coming you're dead. I have far more success with this than going critical mass mutas+lings (that will often allow the 'toss to grab a third).
It's the tech(switching) vs gateway+immortal (needed vs roach, sentries may be useless with burrow) that kills protoss. You really can't do both *and* get a fast third. You could possible skip robo tech (and rely on hallucniate for scouting) but that'll leave you even more vulnerable without immortals (templars on 2 base = too few of them, low energy, gas starved => gets eaten by ling reinforcements).
Just my thoughts on this. I do actually beat zergs going mutas with my toss but they don't really execute their build correctly or are too sloppy with their macro.
On my zerg I genuinely enjoy stomping 'toss with "mutas" 
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Amazing guide as usual rsvp, perfect meta timming ^^
Thx a lot man, you keep pushing the non-pro serious P comunity foward 
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On November 22 2011 05:58 CecilSunkure wrote:
Sorry if it sounds like I'm making a big deal out of all this, but I just feel really terrible knowing people are going to get confused or miss important info when the solution to the problem is really as simple as pointing out: Muta numbers should always be manageable if you don't let a Zerg opponent run free for 13 minutes. If you let a decent Zerg run free for too long, it doesn't matter what tactics or strategies you use, as there will simply be too big of an income disparity from improper play to make a difference.
Not to enter into this argument or anything, but isn't that the case with most lower leveled players? Personally, from my experience with my friends who are in lower divisions, they usually blame balance or some other aspect of the game/mentality, or specific strategy, and wonder similar questions about a multitude of builds. Those players should be directed towards becoming better gamers overall anyways, and so this thread shouldn't really have to address that.
EDIT: Wow, forgot to talk about the topic at hand. Great OP... lol. It gives me some insight on how to improve my muta play now.
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United States8461 Posts
On November 22 2011 05:58 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 04:24 kcdc wrote:On November 22 2011 03:18 CecilSunkure wrote:On November 22 2011 03:10 coL.rsvp wrote:On November 22 2011 02:59 CecilSunkure wrote:On November 22 2011 02:51 coL.rsvp wrote:On November 22 2011 02:44 CecilSunkure wrote:On November 22 2011 02:41 coL.rsvp wrote:
I mentioned that although attacking off 2 base is a great strat against muta I'm not going to discuss it here. I don't really get why you'd skip a gigantic portion of why people have problems with Mutas in the first place. As of now this thread won't really apply to most people in as meaningful of a way as if you directly address the problems (I talked about in my other post) most low level players have. This guide is focused on how to react to mutas and play against the style mid-late game. It seems like the problems you mention low-level players have are just basic how to play PvZ early game? What does that have to do with mutas though? The reason why I don't discuss 2 base attacks against mutas is because I personally don't have much experience with it. If you or someone else has replays/suggestions of how to just kill the zerg if he goes mutas, let me know and I'll add to the OP. It has to do with Mutas probably because it's really hard for someone to realize just how far behind they are when they play against a Muta/Ling player because all those Mutas and Lings sorta stack together really easily. If you play against a bunch of Roaches, then it's easy to see just how many roaches and just how far ahead your opponent was when you lost. You don't have to talk about attacking off of 2 bases specifically, but it's like I said in my other post: On November 22 2011 01:31 CecilSunkure wrote:
I guarantee you most people have trouble against mutas because they fail to play PvZ properly in the early/mid game, leaving the Z with a huge income disparity in comparison the Protoss. This results in a huge amount of resources dumped into a Muta/Ling army, and that huge amount of resources keeps the Protoss from getting their needed vespene until the Protoss is finally fed up, runs out into the middle of the map in a last ditch attempt to death roll across the map where they get obliterated by Muta/Ling.
Happened in every student replay of mine where "Muta/Ling" was a concern. Basically they let the Zerg get too many drones by playing really badly, the Zerg makes a load of Mutas, and they think "Man Mutas are really hard to deal with" -> they interpret Mutas as the problem rather than attributing it to their bad play. Ok, I agree with everything you've said but I still don't see how that has anything to do with defending against mutas? Maybe you're suggesting that I should put some kind of disclaimer to this discussion/guide that it's only applicable to higher level players? Oh I see what you mean. Okay so I've had a lot of lessons with a lot of students. Every time "Muta Ling" comes up as a topic, I end up actually addressing their bad play instead of the Mutas specifically. This is because Mutas are really easy to blame as a problem during a game instead of a Protoss actually playing bad. So then people will open this thread, see good advice, and then try it in their games and lose anyways, because they simply are playing bad. So I'd suggest writing something like: - Mutas shouldn't be accessible by a Zerg player in un-manageable numbers too early unless a Protoss is highly passive.
- Knowing this, a good Protoss will not let a Zerg bank enough resources to suddenly explode with many Mutas too early.
- Many people suffering from "Mutalisks" are really suffering from highly passive and in general bad PvZ play.
- If you let a Zerg make too many drones freely, they will often times make a large Muta ball that you cannot actually deal with unless you played equally as greedy.
- Playing more active and with proper PvZ will result in a manageable Muta Ball, to which the rest of the guide applies.
I'd try to write a little more but I got class now and gotta run. I dunno man. In my experience and in a lot of pro games that I've seen, Z can safely get a lot of mutas out even if P plays well. P can slow it down with pressure, and if P's build is designed for pressure at the right times, that's even better. But it seems to me that Zergs have largely learned how to deal with 2-base pressure (usually defending with roaches and switching to mutas once they're safe), and that preventing muta balls from ever being built is no longer a reliable option. Good all-ins can work, but a good Protoss player also needs to know how to play macro vs muta. I'm not talking about Macro Muta... -.- Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 05:24 ZeromuS wrote:On November 22 2011 04:24 kcdc wrote:On November 22 2011 03:18 CecilSunkure wrote:On November 22 2011 03:10 coL.rsvp wrote:On November 22 2011 02:59 CecilSunkure wrote:On November 22 2011 02:51 coL.rsvp wrote:On November 22 2011 02:44 CecilSunkure wrote:On November 22 2011 02:41 coL.rsvp wrote:
I mentioned that although attacking off 2 base is a great strat against muta I'm not going to discuss it here. I don't really get why you'd skip a gigantic portion of why people have problems with Mutas in the first place. As of now this thread won't really apply to most people in as meaningful of a way as if you directly address the problems (I talked about in my other post) most low level players have. This guide is focused on how to react to mutas and play against the style mid-late game. It seems like the problems you mention low-level players have are just basic how to play PvZ early game? What does that have to do with mutas though? The reason why I don't discuss 2 base attacks against mutas is because I personally don't have much experience with it. If you or someone else has replays/suggestions of how to just kill the zerg if he goes mutas, let me know and I'll add to the OP. It has to do with Mutas probably because it's really hard for someone to realize just how far behind they are when they play against a Muta/Ling player because all those Mutas and Lings sorta stack together really easily. If you play against a bunch of Roaches, then it's easy to see just how many roaches and just how far ahead your opponent was when you lost. You don't have to talk about attacking off of 2 bases specifically, but it's like I said in my other post: On November 22 2011 01:31 CecilSunkure wrote:
I guarantee you most people have trouble against mutas because they fail to play PvZ properly in the early/mid game, leaving the Z with a huge income disparity in comparison the Protoss. This results in a huge amount of resources dumped into a Muta/Ling army, and that huge amount of resources keeps the Protoss from getting their needed vespene until the Protoss is finally fed up, runs out into the middle of the map in a last ditch attempt to death roll across the map where they get obliterated by Muta/Ling.
Happened in every student replay of mine where "Muta/Ling" was a concern. Basically they let the Zerg get too many drones by playing really badly, the Zerg makes a load of Mutas, and they think "Man Mutas are really hard to deal with" -> they interpret Mutas as the problem rather than attributing it to their bad play. Ok, I agree with everything you've said but I still don't see how that has anything to do with defending against mutas? Maybe you're suggesting that I should put some kind of disclaimer to this discussion/guide that it's only applicable to higher level players? Oh I see what you mean. Okay so I've had a lot of lessons with a lot of students. Every time "Muta Ling" comes up as a topic, I end up actually addressing their bad play instead of the Mutas specifically. This is because Mutas are really easy to blame as a problem during a game instead of a Protoss actually playing bad. So then people will open this thread, see good advice, and then try it in their games and lose anyways, because they simply are playing bad. So I'd suggest writing something like: - Mutas shouldn't be accessible by a Zerg player in un-manageable numbers too early unless a Protoss is highly passive.
- Knowing this, a good Protoss will not let a Zerg bank enough resources to suddenly explode with many Mutas too early.
- Many people suffering from "Mutalisks" are really suffering from highly passive and in general bad PvZ play.
- If you let a Zerg make too many drones freely, they will often times make a large Muta ball that you cannot actually deal with unless you played equally as greedy.
- Playing more active and with proper PvZ will result in a manageable Muta Ball, to which the rest of the guide applies.
I'd try to write a little more but I got class now and gotta run. I dunno man. In my experience and in a lot of pro games that I've seen, Z can safely get a lot of mutas out even if P plays well. P can slow it down with pressure, and if P's build is designed for pressure at the right times, that's even better. But it seems to me that Zergs have largely learned how to deal with 2-base pressure (usually defending with roaches and switching to mutas once they're safe), and that preventing muta balls from ever being built is no longer a reliable option. Good all-ins can work, but a good Protoss player also needs to know how to play macro vs muta. Yeah I agree. I rarely see Pros win against Muta play and if I do its with some sort of all in before the muta ball gets completely unmanageable. Sort of feel like nobody is really listening to what I'm saying. Show nested quote +CecilSunkure said:
Mutas shouldn't be accessible by a Zerg player in un-manageable numbers too early unless a Protoss is highly passive. Show nested quote +CecilSunkure said:
Knowing this, a good Protoss will not let a Zerg bank enough resources to suddenly explode with many Mutas too early. I'm clearly not talking about pro players or pro games, I'm addressing a problem that I see. This is coming from empathy of how low level players play, think, and come onto the forums and think. This means if someone new to the forums or SC2 comes in here and reads the thread, they'll probably get a bunch of great advice that they simply can't apply -and they won't even know it unless they read my posts. Sorry if it sounds like I'm making a big deal out of all this, but I just feel really terrible knowing people are going to get confused or miss important info when the solution to the problem is really as simple as pointing out: Muta numbers should always be manageable if you don't let a Zerg opponent run free for 13 minutes. If you let a decent Zerg run free for too long, it doesn't matter what tactics or strategies you use, as there will simply be too big of an income disparity from improper play to make a difference.
Why don't you write a section regarding what you mean and then rsvp can decide if he wants to add it to his guide.
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On November 22 2011 03:18 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 03:10 coL.rsvp wrote:On November 22 2011 02:59 CecilSunkure wrote:On November 22 2011 02:51 coL.rsvp wrote:On November 22 2011 02:44 CecilSunkure wrote:On November 22 2011 02:41 coL.rsvp wrote:
I mentioned that although attacking off 2 base is a great strat against muta I'm not going to discuss it here. I don't really get why you'd skip a gigantic portion of why people have problems with Mutas in the first place. As of now this thread won't really apply to most people in as meaningful of a way as if you directly address the problems (I talked about in my other post) most low level players have. This guide is focused on how to react to mutas and play against the style mid-late game. It seems like the problems you mention low-level players have are just basic how to play PvZ early game? What does that have to do with mutas though? The reason why I don't discuss 2 base attacks against mutas is because I personally don't have much experience with it. If you or someone else has replays/suggestions of how to just kill the zerg if he goes mutas, let me know and I'll add to the OP. It has to do with Mutas probably because it's really hard for someone to realize just how far behind they are when they play against a Muta/Ling player because all those Mutas and Lings sorta stack together really easily. If you play against a bunch of Roaches, then it's easy to see just how many roaches and just how far ahead your opponent was when you lost. You don't have to talk about attacking off of 2 bases specifically, but it's like I said in my other post: On November 22 2011 01:31 CecilSunkure wrote:
I guarantee you most people have trouble against mutas because they fail to play PvZ properly in the early/mid game, leaving the Z with a huge income disparity in comparison the Protoss. This results in a huge amount of resources dumped into a Muta/Ling army, and that huge amount of resources keeps the Protoss from getting their needed vespene until the Protoss is finally fed up, runs out into the middle of the map in a last ditch attempt to death roll across the map where they get obliterated by Muta/Ling.
Happened in every student replay of mine where "Muta/Ling" was a concern. Basically they let the Zerg get too many drones by playing really badly, the Zerg makes a load of Mutas, and they think "Man Mutas are really hard to deal with" -> they interpret Mutas as the problem rather than attributing it to their bad play. Ok, I agree with everything you've said but I still don't see how that has anything to do with defending against mutas? Maybe you're suggesting that I should put some kind of disclaimer to this discussion/guide that it's only applicable to higher level players? Oh I see what you mean. Okay so I've had a lot of lessons with a lot of students. Every time "Muta Ling" comes up as a topic, I end up actually addressing their bad play instead of the Mutas specifically. This is because Mutas are really easy to blame as a problem during a game instead of a Protoss actually playing bad. So then people will open this thread, see good advice, and then try it in their games and lose anyways, because they simply are playing bad. So I'd suggest writing something like: - Mutas shouldn't be accessible by a Zerg player in un-manageable numbers too early unless a Protoss is highly passive.
- Knowing this, a good Protoss will not let a Zerg bank enough resources to suddenly explode with many Mutas too early.
- Many people suffering from "Mutalisks" are really suffering from highly passive and in general bad PvZ play.
- If you let a Zerg make too many drones freely, they will often times make a large Muta ball that you cannot actually deal with unless you played equally as greedy.
- Playing more active and with proper PvZ will result in a manageable Muta Ball, to which the rest of the guide applies.
I'd try to write a little more but I got class now and gotta run.
Agree with rsvp. I'm a mid master player, and i suck as shit in PvZ, well, i suck as a player, but my PvZ is prolly my worst match up because of the zero initial map control + multitak required to not lose your army to a cheap run by or surround and so; and i think this happens to a LOT of P players. So if you add to those problems, bad decisions, yes, you're fked hard, and yes, the problem are not the mutas, is you as a player.
And btw, Cecilsunkure, even the very top P players cannot punish the top Z's enough to prevent them banking +1200 min/gas into muta switch when you only have 2 bases.
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On November 22 2011 07:59 Belha wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 03:18 CecilSunkure wrote:On November 22 2011 03:10 coL.rsvp wrote:On November 22 2011 02:59 CecilSunkure wrote:On November 22 2011 02:51 coL.rsvp wrote:On November 22 2011 02:44 CecilSunkure wrote:On November 22 2011 02:41 coL.rsvp wrote:
I mentioned that although attacking off 2 base is a great strat against muta I'm not going to discuss it here. I don't really get why you'd skip a gigantic portion of why people have problems with Mutas in the first place. As of now this thread won't really apply to most people in as meaningful of a way as if you directly address the problems (I talked about in my other post) most low level players have. This guide is focused on how to react to mutas and play against the style mid-late game. It seems like the problems you mention low-level players have are just basic how to play PvZ early game? What does that have to do with mutas though? The reason why I don't discuss 2 base attacks against mutas is because I personally don't have much experience with it. If you or someone else has replays/suggestions of how to just kill the zerg if he goes mutas, let me know and I'll add to the OP. It has to do with Mutas probably because it's really hard for someone to realize just how far behind they are when they play against a Muta/Ling player because all those Mutas and Lings sorta stack together really easily. If you play against a bunch of Roaches, then it's easy to see just how many roaches and just how far ahead your opponent was when you lost. You don't have to talk about attacking off of 2 bases specifically, but it's like I said in my other post: On November 22 2011 01:31 CecilSunkure wrote:
I guarantee you most people have trouble against mutas because they fail to play PvZ properly in the early/mid game, leaving the Z with a huge income disparity in comparison the Protoss. This results in a huge amount of resources dumped into a Muta/Ling army, and that huge amount of resources keeps the Protoss from getting their needed vespene until the Protoss is finally fed up, runs out into the middle of the map in a last ditch attempt to death roll across the map where they get obliterated by Muta/Ling.
Happened in every student replay of mine where "Muta/Ling" was a concern. Basically they let the Zerg get too many drones by playing really badly, the Zerg makes a load of Mutas, and they think "Man Mutas are really hard to deal with" -> they interpret Mutas as the problem rather than attributing it to their bad play. Ok, I agree with everything you've said but I still don't see how that has anything to do with defending against mutas? Maybe you're suggesting that I should put some kind of disclaimer to this discussion/guide that it's only applicable to higher level players? Oh I see what you mean. Okay so I've had a lot of lessons with a lot of students. Every time "Muta Ling" comes up as a topic, I end up actually addressing their bad play instead of the Mutas specifically. This is because Mutas are really easy to blame as a problem during a game instead of a Protoss actually playing bad. So then people will open this thread, see good advice, and then try it in their games and lose anyways, because they simply are playing bad. So I'd suggest writing something like: - Mutas shouldn't be accessible by a Zerg player in un-manageable numbers too early unless a Protoss is highly passive.
- Knowing this, a good Protoss will not let a Zerg bank enough resources to suddenly explode with many Mutas too early.
- Many people suffering from "Mutalisks" are really suffering from highly passive and in general bad PvZ play.
- If you let a Zerg make too many drones freely, they will often times make a large Muta ball that you cannot actually deal with unless you played equally as greedy.
- Playing more active and with proper PvZ will result in a manageable Muta Ball, to which the rest of the guide applies.
I'd try to write a little more but I got class now and gotta run. Agree with rsvp. I'm a mid master player, and i suck as shit in PvZ, well, i suck as a player, but my PvZ is prolly my worst match up because of the zero initial map control + multitak required to not lose your army to a cheap run by or surround and so; and i think this happens to a LOT of P players. So if you add to those problems, bad decisions, yes, you're fked hard, and yes, the problem are not the mutas, is you as a player. And btw, Cecilsunkure, even the very top P players cannot punish the top Z's enough to prevent them banking +1200 min/gas into muta switch when you only have 2 bases.
Would like to start off by saying this is a great thread, I personally have been trouble with Mutas in PvZ the last few weeks and know that a lot of other Protoss I have talked to (from Plat all the way to GM) are saying the same, this thread will definitely help. All Cecil is saying is that a lot of players will look at this guide and say ''Oh now I can deal with Mutas and not lose every PvZ'' when in fact they are just losing because they're getting flat out outplayed. Everyone has tons of ladder games they blame on ''stupid strategies'' or ''imbalanced units'' or ''poor map spawns'', but we all know in the back of our minds that we just go outplayed.
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On November 22 2011 07:59 Belha wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 03:18 CecilSunkure wrote:On November 22 2011 03:10 coL.rsvp wrote:On November 22 2011 02:59 CecilSunkure wrote:On November 22 2011 02:51 coL.rsvp wrote:On November 22 2011 02:44 CecilSunkure wrote:On November 22 2011 02:41 coL.rsvp wrote:
I mentioned that although attacking off 2 base is a great strat against muta I'm not going to discuss it here. I don't really get why you'd skip a gigantic portion of why people have problems with Mutas in the first place. As of now this thread won't really apply to most people in as meaningful of a way as if you directly address the problems (I talked about in my other post) most low level players have. This guide is focused on how to react to mutas and play against the style mid-late game. It seems like the problems you mention low-level players have are just basic how to play PvZ early game? What does that have to do with mutas though? The reason why I don't discuss 2 base attacks against mutas is because I personally don't have much experience with it. If you or someone else has replays/suggestions of how to just kill the zerg if he goes mutas, let me know and I'll add to the OP. It has to do with Mutas probably because it's really hard for someone to realize just how far behind they are when they play against a Muta/Ling player because all those Mutas and Lings sorta stack together really easily. If you play against a bunch of Roaches, then it's easy to see just how many roaches and just how far ahead your opponent was when you lost. You don't have to talk about attacking off of 2 bases specifically, but it's like I said in my other post: On November 22 2011 01:31 CecilSunkure wrote:
I guarantee you most people have trouble against mutas because they fail to play PvZ properly in the early/mid game, leaving the Z with a huge income disparity in comparison the Protoss. This results in a huge amount of resources dumped into a Muta/Ling army, and that huge amount of resources keeps the Protoss from getting their needed vespene until the Protoss is finally fed up, runs out into the middle of the map in a last ditch attempt to death roll across the map where they get obliterated by Muta/Ling.
Happened in every student replay of mine where "Muta/Ling" was a concern. Basically they let the Zerg get too many drones by playing really badly, the Zerg makes a load of Mutas, and they think "Man Mutas are really hard to deal with" -> they interpret Mutas as the problem rather than attributing it to their bad play. Ok, I agree with everything you've said but I still don't see how that has anything to do with defending against mutas? Maybe you're suggesting that I should put some kind of disclaimer to this discussion/guide that it's only applicable to higher level players? Oh I see what you mean. Okay so I've had a lot of lessons with a lot of students. Every time "Muta Ling" comes up as a topic, I end up actually addressing their bad play instead of the Mutas specifically. This is because Mutas are really easy to blame as a problem during a game instead of a Protoss actually playing bad. So then people will open this thread, see good advice, and then try it in their games and lose anyways, because they simply are playing bad. So I'd suggest writing something like: - Mutas shouldn't be accessible by a Zerg player in un-manageable numbers too early unless a Protoss is highly passive.
- Knowing this, a good Protoss will not let a Zerg bank enough resources to suddenly explode with many Mutas too early.
- Many people suffering from "Mutalisks" are really suffering from highly passive and in general bad PvZ play.
- If you let a Zerg make too many drones freely, they will often times make a large Muta ball that you cannot actually deal with unless you played equally as greedy.
- Playing more active and with proper PvZ will result in a manageable Muta Ball, to which the rest of the guide applies.
I'd try to write a little more but I got class now and gotta run. Agree with rsvp. I'm a mid master player, and i suck as shit in PvZ, well, i suck as a player, but my PvZ is prolly my worst match up because of the zero initial map control + multitak required to not lose your army to a cheap run by or surround and so; and i think this happens to a LOT of P players. So if you add to those problems, bad decisions, yes, you're fked hard, and yes, the problem are not the mutas, is you as a player. And btw, Cecilsunkure, even the very top P players cannot punish the top Z's enough to prevent them banking +1200 min/gas into muta switch when you only have 2 bases.
I think for argument sake, I would say both RSVP and Cecil are right
RSVP is giving advice on mutas mid/late game assuming they are out (as opposed to more preventative measures that others do like 6gate all-in before it happens). Cecil is simply saying that for many players, the muta problem is caused by poor early game play (either macro or over-passiveness). So many people get caught up thinking about how to defend mutas (like with storm/blink etc.) and probably still struggle because they simply let zerg macro up un-manageable amounts of mutas.
So I would say the muta problem comes from 2 sources:
1) You let zerg macro-up and mass ridculous amounts of mutas (Cecil's view)
2) You play competently, and zerg doesn't get riduculous amounts, but mutas are still darn annoying (which is where RSVP's advice comes in).
Feel free to correct me if I have interpreted either of u wrong Cecil & RSVP
Otherwise, great guide and much needed help!!!!!!
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On November 22 2011 07:55 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 05:58 CecilSunkure wrote:On November 22 2011 04:24 kcdc wrote:On November 22 2011 03:18 CecilSunkure wrote:On November 22 2011 03:10 coL.rsvp wrote:On November 22 2011 02:59 CecilSunkure wrote:On November 22 2011 02:51 coL.rsvp wrote:On November 22 2011 02:44 CecilSunkure wrote:On November 22 2011 02:41 coL.rsvp wrote:
I mentioned that although attacking off 2 base is a great strat against muta I'm not going to discuss it here. I don't really get why you'd skip a gigantic portion of why people have problems with Mutas in the first place. As of now this thread won't really apply to most people in as meaningful of a way as if you directly address the problems (I talked about in my other post) most low level players have. This guide is focused on how to react to mutas and play against the style mid-late game. It seems like the problems you mention low-level players have are just basic how to play PvZ early game? What does that have to do with mutas though? The reason why I don't discuss 2 base attacks against mutas is because I personally don't have much experience with it. If you or someone else has replays/suggestions of how to just kill the zerg if he goes mutas, let me know and I'll add to the OP. It has to do with Mutas probably because it's really hard for someone to realize just how far behind they are when they play against a Muta/Ling player because all those Mutas and Lings sorta stack together really easily. If you play against a bunch of Roaches, then it's easy to see just how many roaches and just how far ahead your opponent was when you lost. You don't have to talk about attacking off of 2 bases specifically, but it's like I said in my other post: On November 22 2011 01:31 CecilSunkure wrote:
I guarantee you most people have trouble against mutas because they fail to play PvZ properly in the early/mid game, leaving the Z with a huge income disparity in comparison the Protoss. This results in a huge amount of resources dumped into a Muta/Ling army, and that huge amount of resources keeps the Protoss from getting their needed vespene until the Protoss is finally fed up, runs out into the middle of the map in a last ditch attempt to death roll across the map where they get obliterated by Muta/Ling.
Happened in every student replay of mine where "Muta/Ling" was a concern. Basically they let the Zerg get too many drones by playing really badly, the Zerg makes a load of Mutas, and they think "Man Mutas are really hard to deal with" -> they interpret Mutas as the problem rather than attributing it to their bad play. Ok, I agree with everything you've said but I still don't see how that has anything to do with defending against mutas? Maybe you're suggesting that I should put some kind of disclaimer to this discussion/guide that it's only applicable to higher level players? Oh I see what you mean. Okay so I've had a lot of lessons with a lot of students. Every time "Muta Ling" comes up as a topic, I end up actually addressing their bad play instead of the Mutas specifically. This is because Mutas are really easy to blame as a problem during a game instead of a Protoss actually playing bad. So then people will open this thread, see good advice, and then try it in their games and lose anyways, because they simply are playing bad. So I'd suggest writing something like: - Mutas shouldn't be accessible by a Zerg player in un-manageable numbers too early unless a Protoss is highly passive.
- Knowing this, a good Protoss will not let a Zerg bank enough resources to suddenly explode with many Mutas too early.
- Many people suffering from "Mutalisks" are really suffering from highly passive and in general bad PvZ play.
- If you let a Zerg make too many drones freely, they will often times make a large Muta ball that you cannot actually deal with unless you played equally as greedy.
- Playing more active and with proper PvZ will result in a manageable Muta Ball, to which the rest of the guide applies.
I'd try to write a little more but I got class now and gotta run. I dunno man. In my experience and in a lot of pro games that I've seen, Z can safely get a lot of mutas out even if P plays well. P can slow it down with pressure, and if P's build is designed for pressure at the right times, that's even better. But it seems to me that Zergs have largely learned how to deal with 2-base pressure (usually defending with roaches and switching to mutas once they're safe), and that preventing muta balls from ever being built is no longer a reliable option. Good all-ins can work, but a good Protoss player also needs to know how to play macro vs muta. I'm not talking about Macro Muta... -.- On November 22 2011 05:24 ZeromuS wrote:On November 22 2011 04:24 kcdc wrote:On November 22 2011 03:18 CecilSunkure wrote:On November 22 2011 03:10 coL.rsvp wrote:On November 22 2011 02:59 CecilSunkure wrote:On November 22 2011 02:51 coL.rsvp wrote:On November 22 2011 02:44 CecilSunkure wrote:On November 22 2011 02:41 coL.rsvp wrote:
I mentioned that although attacking off 2 base is a great strat against muta I'm not going to discuss it here. I don't really get why you'd skip a gigantic portion of why people have problems with Mutas in the first place. As of now this thread won't really apply to most people in as meaningful of a way as if you directly address the problems (I talked about in my other post) most low level players have. This guide is focused on how to react to mutas and play against the style mid-late game. It seems like the problems you mention low-level players have are just basic how to play PvZ early game? What does that have to do with mutas though? The reason why I don't discuss 2 base attacks against mutas is because I personally don't have much experience with it. If you or someone else has replays/suggestions of how to just kill the zerg if he goes mutas, let me know and I'll add to the OP. It has to do with Mutas probably because it's really hard for someone to realize just how far behind they are when they play against a Muta/Ling player because all those Mutas and Lings sorta stack together really easily. If you play against a bunch of Roaches, then it's easy to see just how many roaches and just how far ahead your opponent was when you lost. You don't have to talk about attacking off of 2 bases specifically, but it's like I said in my other post: On November 22 2011 01:31 CecilSunkure wrote:
I guarantee you most people have trouble against mutas because they fail to play PvZ properly in the early/mid game, leaving the Z with a huge income disparity in comparison the Protoss. This results in a huge amount of resources dumped into a Muta/Ling army, and that huge amount of resources keeps the Protoss from getting their needed vespene until the Protoss is finally fed up, runs out into the middle of the map in a last ditch attempt to death roll across the map where they get obliterated by Muta/Ling.
Happened in every student replay of mine where "Muta/Ling" was a concern. Basically they let the Zerg get too many drones by playing really badly, the Zerg makes a load of Mutas, and they think "Man Mutas are really hard to deal with" -> they interpret Mutas as the problem rather than attributing it to their bad play. Ok, I agree with everything you've said but I still don't see how that has anything to do with defending against mutas? Maybe you're suggesting that I should put some kind of disclaimer to this discussion/guide that it's only applicable to higher level players? Oh I see what you mean. Okay so I've had a lot of lessons with a lot of students. Every time "Muta Ling" comes up as a topic, I end up actually addressing their bad play instead of the Mutas specifically. This is because Mutas are really easy to blame as a problem during a game instead of a Protoss actually playing bad. So then people will open this thread, see good advice, and then try it in their games and lose anyways, because they simply are playing bad. So I'd suggest writing something like: - Mutas shouldn't be accessible by a Zerg player in un-manageable numbers too early unless a Protoss is highly passive.
- Knowing this, a good Protoss will not let a Zerg bank enough resources to suddenly explode with many Mutas too early.
- Many people suffering from "Mutalisks" are really suffering from highly passive and in general bad PvZ play.
- If you let a Zerg make too many drones freely, they will often times make a large Muta ball that you cannot actually deal with unless you played equally as greedy.
- Playing more active and with proper PvZ will result in a manageable Muta Ball, to which the rest of the guide applies.
I'd try to write a little more but I got class now and gotta run. I dunno man. In my experience and in a lot of pro games that I've seen, Z can safely get a lot of mutas out even if P plays well. P can slow it down with pressure, and if P's build is designed for pressure at the right times, that's even better. But it seems to me that Zergs have largely learned how to deal with 2-base pressure (usually defending with roaches and switching to mutas once they're safe), and that preventing muta balls from ever being built is no longer a reliable option. Good all-ins can work, but a good Protoss player also needs to know how to play macro vs muta. Yeah I agree. I rarely see Pros win against Muta play and if I do its with some sort of all in before the muta ball gets completely unmanageable. Sort of feel like nobody is really listening to what I'm saying. CecilSunkure said:
Mutas shouldn't be accessible by a Zerg player in un-manageable numbers too early unless a Protoss is highly passive. CecilSunkure said:
Knowing this, a good Protoss will not let a Zerg bank enough resources to suddenly explode with many Mutas too early. I'm clearly not talking about pro players or pro games, I'm addressing a problem that I see. This is coming from empathy of how low level players play, think, and come onto the forums and think. This means if someone new to the forums or SC2 comes in here and reads the thread, they'll probably get a bunch of great advice that they simply can't apply -and they won't even know it unless they read my posts. Sorry if it sounds like I'm making a big deal out of all this, but I just feel really terrible knowing people are going to get confused or miss important info when the solution to the problem is really as simple as pointing out: Muta numbers should always be manageable if you don't let a Zerg opponent run free for 13 minutes. If you let a decent Zerg run free for too long, it doesn't matter what tactics or strategies you use, as there will simply be too big of an income disparity from improper play to make a difference. Why don't you write a section regarding what you mean and then rsvp can decide if he wants to add it to his guide.
Okay:
Before you read this guide, try and and make sure you don't have large macro or passivity problems, or both at once. No matter what sort of tactics you use, if you let a Zerg player get too many more workers than you too fast, they'll have a ball of Muta/Ling that just isn't manageable no matter what you do. Play actively, keep from being too passive, and ensure that you have at least equal macro to your opponents when applying the guidance suggested in this thread.
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What about a 2 base 2 stargate early attack? I did this in a game earlier today, focusing more on establishing a third at about 9:00 than doing much damage. With a couple of leftover phoenix I had great scouting info and so I saw his spire very early. I found that double phoenix production with a couple of stalkers for support was amazing against mutas. A few notes about this game though, Z made about 12 lings very early and did no damage and I got my 3rd before he did. He also engaged pretty badly, allowing me to fight with stalkers and phoenixes under a guardian shield. I am only in platinum (my opponent was diamond though), so is this a strong opening or not?
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This is about the first protoss thread I've seen that has a real answer to mutas. That observer cloud thing is a super good idea. I'll have to start looking for too competent stalker movement and make an overseer if this becomes common.
I personally don't really fear storm. When I see it coming I transition into roaches, as for the mutas, they rarely take more than 20 damage per storm, and the templar themselves are super vulnerable. But maybe at the high level it is more effective.
Still, a good guide, you complainers should be listening to this guy. The only thing he doesn't seem to deal with is spine crawler walls that I put up so that my last engagements will be beneficial. I always make sure I have big walls in the middle of the map to retreat to, and to delay the stalkers so that I can put the final nail in the coffin of his economy before I engage.
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Watching MLG, i NEVER saw LiquidHerO not open stargate in PvZ.. It seems that he opens stargate because of the current metagame being mass mutas/ people opening hydras then transitioning into collosus to hard counter it. Transitioning into collosus is fine personally i think if you have only about 3.. Also say i 1 gate expo and i don't open stargate i will put down a Twilight+Robo then 3 gates while i am getting an observer.. I think opening this way gives you alot of leverage because you can either not get a robo bay and get blink and expand while putting warpprisim pressure on. At the same time because having blink+ collosus Once i see Mutas i Set the Stalkers i already have to Hotkey 1 and the rest of my army on hotkey 2, and more stlakers i make i usually add them to hotkey 2 because i need them to defend collosus n stuff. I found blink stalker+Phionex (if your already going phionex) is really good to defend. Your explanation on how to counter mutas was really good added some knowledge for me on how to be better! Thanks ^^
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Extremely well written thread about dealing with mutas, a lot of people complain about it, and a lot of people respond very poorly to it. This thread is an absolute must read if you are having trouble with mutas and/or don't know what unit composition to use.
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Could you address using Stargate play to pre-empt Mutalisks? I open Stargate in my PvZ as a form of early game harassment, to force Hydralisks and to ward my opponent away from Mutalisks because of my early Phoenix count. Is this viable way to play?
(Apologies if this is unrelated as this thread is about dealing with the Mutalisks when they're actually out).
(Disclaimer: I'm a Platinum Protoss so I know I'm terrible.)
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