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On November 23 2011 01:51 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2011 01:30 coL.rsvp wrote:On November 22 2011 18:48 sleepingdog wrote:
Cool write-up, just found time to read all that.
What I wanted to comment on is double stargate - some people have mentioned it, but I think it deserves a closer look. If you open double stargate, you normally plan on going for few voidrays and a lot of phoenixes to press a roach-player into hydras. If your opponent has opened spire (with or without roach warren depending on his greed), I am convinced that you do not have to transition into blink immediately, you just have to continue to produce phoenixes. It is a very common misconception that mutas "counter" phoenixes once the numbers grow larger. That is most definitely not the case, I've done extensive testing in the unit-tester on that. Even if you do NOT micro your phoenixes, phoenixes beat mutas cost-efficiently regardless of the supply. The only way the zerg player will be able to overwhelm you is if you let him outmacro you. And now that's the funny thing, if you have opened double stargate, you have COMPLETE MAP CONTROL (!) vs a muta-opener. You can take your third extremely early and wall it off with cannons vs the inevitable mass-llings. Or you can use +1 zealots to bust into their third.
Intelligent zerg players will halt muta-production immediately, because there's no way you should ever get outplayed by mutas with double stargate phoenixes. What they will do is to try to (re-)take aircontrol with corruptors, who happen to counter phoenixes hard...and THEN procede with mutas. Now corruptors are slower than phoenixes and pose no threat to your ground army whatsoever. This - again - means you can take a safe fast 3rd or apply more pressure. Pretty much both can work in this situation depending on your preference and the spawning position.
My overall point: while I completely agree with rsvp on basicly every single build he has mentioned, double stargate indeed is the one build that doesn't require an immediate blink/storm transition. Haha sorry for the lack of organization in the OP, but I'm sure I mention somewhere that if you had opened double stargate it's almost like an auto-win against mutas because then you just make phoenixes and some gateway units and win. So we agree 100%  Do you feel like you have to open double stargate, or you are fine if you open single stargate and add a second if you scout a spire (and you aren't making colossus)?
Hmm I may have caused some confusion. If you opened double stargate and your opponent goes mutas, you should just be able to win off 2 base with a phoenix/gateway attack. You should not be making 2 gate phoenix and then transitioning into the defensive style that I outline in the OP.
If you open single stargate and your opponent goes mutas, you can continue making 1 gate phoenix and then transition into this guide. However, in my experience, if you wanted to do a 2 base phoenix/gateway attack after you've opened 1 stargate, the 2nd stargate isn't necessary and IMO it's better just to have more gateway units for the attack instead of extra phoenix.
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Italy12246 Posts
On November 23 2011 02:05 coL.rsvp wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2011 01:51 Teoita wrote:On November 23 2011 01:30 coL.rsvp wrote:On November 22 2011 18:48 sleepingdog wrote:
Cool write-up, just found time to read all that.
What I wanted to comment on is double stargate - some people have mentioned it, but I think it deserves a closer look. If you open double stargate, you normally plan on going for few voidrays and a lot of phoenixes to press a roach-player into hydras. If your opponent has opened spire (with or without roach warren depending on his greed), I am convinced that you do not have to transition into blink immediately, you just have to continue to produce phoenixes. It is a very common misconception that mutas "counter" phoenixes once the numbers grow larger. That is most definitely not the case, I've done extensive testing in the unit-tester on that. Even if you do NOT micro your phoenixes, phoenixes beat mutas cost-efficiently regardless of the supply. The only way the zerg player will be able to overwhelm you is if you let him outmacro you. And now that's the funny thing, if you have opened double stargate, you have COMPLETE MAP CONTROL (!) vs a muta-opener. You can take your third extremely early and wall it off with cannons vs the inevitable mass-llings. Or you can use +1 zealots to bust into their third.
Intelligent zerg players will halt muta-production immediately, because there's no way you should ever get outplayed by mutas with double stargate phoenixes. What they will do is to try to (re-)take aircontrol with corruptors, who happen to counter phoenixes hard...and THEN procede with mutas. Now corruptors are slower than phoenixes and pose no threat to your ground army whatsoever. This - again - means you can take a safe fast 3rd or apply more pressure. Pretty much both can work in this situation depending on your preference and the spawning position.
My overall point: while I completely agree with rsvp on basicly every single build he has mentioned, double stargate indeed is the one build that doesn't require an immediate blink/storm transition. Haha sorry for the lack of organization in the OP, but I'm sure I mention somewhere that if you had opened double stargate it's almost like an auto-win against mutas because then you just make phoenixes and some gateway units and win. So we agree 100% Do you feel like you have to open double stargate, or you are fine if you open single stargate and add a second if you scout a spire (and you aren't making colossus)? Hmm I may have caused some confusion. If you opened double stargate and your opponent goes mutas, you should just be able to win off 2 base with a phoenix/gateway attack. You should not be making 2 gate phoenix and then transitioning into the defensive style that I outline in the OP. If you open single stargate and your opponent goes mutas, you can continue making 1 gate phoenix and then transition into this guide. However, in my experience, if you wanted to do a 2 base phoenix/gateway attack after you've opened 1 stargate, the 2nd stargate isn't necessary and IMO it's better just to have more gateway units for the attack instead of extra phoenix.
I see. My (possibly silly) idea was that if you open single stargate and scout mutas, you could add a second stargate and get 10-12 ish phoenixes; at that point, you can shoo away his mutas and push out with a gateway army while you force his mutas back by harassing with the phoenixes. Essentially you use your gateway army to attack, and your phoenix to fight the mutas wherever they are. This is however theorycrafting, i just wanted to hear the opinion of a better player
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I think blink w/ +attack into storm is the best way to deal with mutas directly, but once you get your third secured and have 6-8ish HT plus enough stalkers to not die immediately, you should get a few DTs to pressure his expos. Secure your additional expos with stalker+HT+cannon while pressuring his expos with zeal/DT mix whenever you're pushing or he's attacking. Storm+Feedback+blink+DT is good against a wide variety of compositions too.
http://drop.sc/62504
Not sure if this is a good demonstration replay or not, I did make several mistakes, as did my opponent.
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On November 23 2011 02:28 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2011 02:05 coL.rsvp wrote:On November 23 2011 01:51 Teoita wrote:On November 23 2011 01:30 coL.rsvp wrote:On November 22 2011 18:48 sleepingdog wrote:
Cool write-up, just found time to read all that.
What I wanted to comment on is double stargate - some people have mentioned it, but I think it deserves a closer look. If you open double stargate, you normally plan on going for few voidrays and a lot of phoenixes to press a roach-player into hydras. If your opponent has opened spire (with or without roach warren depending on his greed), I am convinced that you do not have to transition into blink immediately, you just have to continue to produce phoenixes. It is a very common misconception that mutas "counter" phoenixes once the numbers grow larger. That is most definitely not the case, I've done extensive testing in the unit-tester on that. Even if you do NOT micro your phoenixes, phoenixes beat mutas cost-efficiently regardless of the supply. The only way the zerg player will be able to overwhelm you is if you let him outmacro you. And now that's the funny thing, if you have opened double stargate, you have COMPLETE MAP CONTROL (!) vs a muta-opener. You can take your third extremely early and wall it off with cannons vs the inevitable mass-llings. Or you can use +1 zealots to bust into their third.
Intelligent zerg players will halt muta-production immediately, because there's no way you should ever get outplayed by mutas with double stargate phoenixes. What they will do is to try to (re-)take aircontrol with corruptors, who happen to counter phoenixes hard...and THEN procede with mutas. Now corruptors are slower than phoenixes and pose no threat to your ground army whatsoever. This - again - means you can take a safe fast 3rd or apply more pressure. Pretty much both can work in this situation depending on your preference and the spawning position.
My overall point: while I completely agree with rsvp on basicly every single build he has mentioned, double stargate indeed is the one build that doesn't require an immediate blink/storm transition. Haha sorry for the lack of organization in the OP, but I'm sure I mention somewhere that if you had opened double stargate it's almost like an auto-win against mutas because then you just make phoenixes and some gateway units and win. So we agree 100% Do you feel like you have to open double stargate, or you are fine if you open single stargate and add a second if you scout a spire (and you aren't making colossus)? Hmm I may have caused some confusion. If you opened double stargate and your opponent goes mutas, you should just be able to win off 2 base with a phoenix/gateway attack. You should not be making 2 gate phoenix and then transitioning into the defensive style that I outline in the OP. If you open single stargate and your opponent goes mutas, you can continue making 1 gate phoenix and then transition into this guide. However, in my experience, if you wanted to do a 2 base phoenix/gateway attack after you've opened 1 stargate, the 2nd stargate isn't necessary and IMO it's better just to have more gateway units for the attack instead of extra phoenix. I see. My (possibly silly) idea was that if you open single stargate and scout mutas, you could add a second stargate and get 10-12 ish phoenixes; at that point, you can shoo away his mutas and push out with a gateway army while you force his mutas back by harassing with the phoenixes. Essentially you use your gateway army to attack, and your phoenix to fight the mutas wherever they are. This is however theorycrafting, i just wanted to hear the opinion of a better player lots of Phoenix is a fine opening against z, but it's not a very good response, it takes a LOT of phoenix to be useful in the midgame, and you're screwed if he gets 1 fungal off plus anything else that shoots up. Corruptor also is an issue, as it encourages HT play and you've sunk a lot more gas into stargate.
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On November 23 2011 02:28 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2011 02:05 coL.rsvp wrote:On November 23 2011 01:51 Teoita wrote:On November 23 2011 01:30 coL.rsvp wrote:On November 22 2011 18:48 sleepingdog wrote:
Cool write-up, just found time to read all that.
What I wanted to comment on is double stargate - some people have mentioned it, but I think it deserves a closer look. If you open double stargate, you normally plan on going for few voidrays and a lot of phoenixes to press a roach-player into hydras. If your opponent has opened spire (with or without roach warren depending on his greed), I am convinced that you do not have to transition into blink immediately, you just have to continue to produce phoenixes. It is a very common misconception that mutas "counter" phoenixes once the numbers grow larger. That is most definitely not the case, I've done extensive testing in the unit-tester on that. Even if you do NOT micro your phoenixes, phoenixes beat mutas cost-efficiently regardless of the supply. The only way the zerg player will be able to overwhelm you is if you let him outmacro you. And now that's the funny thing, if you have opened double stargate, you have COMPLETE MAP CONTROL (!) vs a muta-opener. You can take your third extremely early and wall it off with cannons vs the inevitable mass-llings. Or you can use +1 zealots to bust into their third.
Intelligent zerg players will halt muta-production immediately, because there's no way you should ever get outplayed by mutas with double stargate phoenixes. What they will do is to try to (re-)take aircontrol with corruptors, who happen to counter phoenixes hard...and THEN procede with mutas. Now corruptors are slower than phoenixes and pose no threat to your ground army whatsoever. This - again - means you can take a safe fast 3rd or apply more pressure. Pretty much both can work in this situation depending on your preference and the spawning position.
My overall point: while I completely agree with rsvp on basicly every single build he has mentioned, double stargate indeed is the one build that doesn't require an immediate blink/storm transition. Haha sorry for the lack of organization in the OP, but I'm sure I mention somewhere that if you had opened double stargate it's almost like an auto-win against mutas because then you just make phoenixes and some gateway units and win. So we agree 100% Do you feel like you have to open double stargate, or you are fine if you open single stargate and add a second if you scout a spire (and you aren't making colossus)? Hmm I may have caused some confusion. If you opened double stargate and your opponent goes mutas, you should just be able to win off 2 base with a phoenix/gateway attack. You should not be making 2 gate phoenix and then transitioning into the defensive style that I outline in the OP. If you open single stargate and your opponent goes mutas, you can continue making 1 gate phoenix and then transition into this guide. However, in my experience, if you wanted to do a 2 base phoenix/gateway attack after you've opened 1 stargate, the 2nd stargate isn't necessary and IMO it's better just to have more gateway units for the attack instead of extra phoenix. I see. My (possibly silly) idea was that if you open single stargate and scout mutas, you could add a second stargate and get 10-12 ish phoenixes; at that point, you can shoo away his mutas and push out with a gateway army while you force his mutas back by harassing with the phoenixes. Essentially you use your gateway army to attack, and your phoenix to fight the mutas wherever they are. This is however theorycrafting, i just wanted to hear the opinion of a better player
The problem lies within the way zerg production works. Meaning, once you scout the spire and throw up the 2nd stargate, the zerg player can produce his first "bunch" of mutas before you are able to go heavy on phoenixes from the 2nd stargate. The zerg has a small window where his mutas will dominate your one stargate air-force...this small window is sufficient for skilled zergs to contain you on 2 base while they establish their 3rd.
And THEN you are in a world of kaka because a saturated 3 base zerg can outproduce you, 2 stargate or not. He'll use one round of larvae for corruptors and continue the contain. 6 gas vs 4 gas is a huge deal at that point into the game. Better to just take a fast 3rd yourself, use stalkers for early defense and screw the single stargate.
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Thank you very much rsvp you really have outdone your self this time. This is a amazing guide that i think any skill level can learn from. I have a history of making a bit to many archons which i try and not do anymore. Also i have never made more then 2 observers before, so i will try making a few more if i scout mutas. Thanks again look forward to seeing more guides.
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I think you did a great job with this guide. Most especially, the part about taking a second expansion early vs. spire is very wise advice. Mutas are a pain in the ass no matter what you do, but playing patiently and defensively with blink + storm gives you a good chance.
If you don't mind, I have a slightly off-topic question: why do you only use a single scout pvz TDA? In the replay against Swing, you seemingly would have been in quite a situation if he were at top right instead of bottom right.
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On November 23 2011 04:55 city42 wrote:
I think you did a great job with this guide. Most especially, the part about taking a second expansion early vs. spire is very wise advice. Mutas are a pain in the ass no matter what you do, but playing patiently and defensively with blink + storm gives you a good chance.
If you don't mind, I have a slightly off-topic question: why do you only use a single scout pvz TDA? In the replay against Swing, you seemingly would have been in quite a situation if he were at top right instead of bottom right.
I sometimes do use a 2nd probe scout on TDA. But even had he been top right I still would have been fine, I'll just have to micro for maybe 5-10 more seconds and I'll probably lose a few probes but not enough to put me behind.
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I agree with most points, but I think that phoenix is the ONLY proper way to deal with mutas as protoss, even if you scout the spire as it is already finished. I will now explain why:
To play against muta with no phoenixes, you need to either:
A) Build a ton of cannons, which will eventually still not be enough if the mutaball grows too high (and you won't be able to take a 3rd)
B) Build lots of blink stalkers, which will not allow you to take a 3rd easily if at all
C) Just go 8-gate all-in or something, which is very likely be countered with mass spine + muta ling basetrade + mass hatch everywhere from z, forcing at least a draw if not a win
I will now answer some questions which might explain why phoenix are completely essential against muta:
Why is it hard/impossible to expand without phoenix?
A: Even with great unit and cannon positioning, you still won't be able to immediately have full defenses wherever the muta/ling attack comes. (obs can get shut down with muta + overseer, which most good zergs do nowadays) Archons and templar are efficient against mutas, but inefficient, and stalkers rarely have enough dps to do anything else than do some damage to the agile mutas. You will be able to bring your army wherever you need to eventually, but not before taking damage in your army and/or economy. There simply is no way to defend against muta/ling optimally without phoenix, even with AMAZING (Naniwa, HuK, etc have lost with ridiculously good positioning vs mutas with no phoenix and really no major mistakes made) positioning and awareness. Even if you manage to expand, the Z can just keep expanding freely and massing mutalisks with the map control the z has, and eventually basetrade you whenever you move out. Obviously you will take some damage from the muta harass, which will make you be even more behind in an already bad position.
Why can't you really win with an all-in attack vs muta?
A: The answer is quite simple = basetrade. Muta/ling is an terrific composition to basetrade with due to it's mobility and high dps. Even if you have a significantly superior army, you will eventually be pinned down to a single pylon/nexus/whatever, and have really no hope of attacking. As long as the zerg was smart enough to bring even 1 drone to mine, you have basically lost. Also, splitting your forces is generally a bad idea and could only work if you have over 2x stronger army than your opponent, and the ability to build a durable proxy structure. Even if you bring probes with you, it is almost inconceivable to end in a situatuon where you have a economy that can rival your opponent's, and even if you somehow do, you will just end up in the same situation as before, but in worse shape than the first time.
Why are cannons a bad idea? Turrets are the way to defend against muta harass as terran..
Besides the obvious points mentioned before, there is also an additional problem with cannons, and that is the fact that they don't benefit from upgrades very much at all. They get no additional damage or armor, which is very problematic as the game goes on. As the muta upgrades start to stack, you will find yourself in a situation where you have to either split your army (causing you to take damage) or spend a TON of minerals to cannons (causing you to have a weaker army).
Personally, I never forge FE and always use hallucination to scout and react with double stargate phoenixes with +1 air and +1 shields upgrading. I think having to blindly go stargate with forge FE vs zerg is quite a terrible setback having to deal with.
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I would like to add for review, if possible, a few things, since at my level I try to handle muta/ling more than roach stuff since roaches are solved by the ever present sentry count...
- +1 attack, full cb off of FFE. Do the forgeFE opener, then when things settle you: have 250 when 1st gate finishes, get a zeal and place 2nd gate, then another zeal, then when 2nd gate is done, get zeal/zeal and when they are out, go pressure 3rd. While you are doing this, you should have used your first 100 gas for ground attack upgrade, and have 2 probes on the map for scouting 3rd. If no third (scouting 4th and 5th and ninja locations), respond accordingly of course, but if everything goes well, you will attack their 3rd and see what they have to respond with. If it is pure ling, you know to take your 3rd and continue with TC and with the advice on this thread, don't need robo, don't need hallu (do need sentries). Also, you get cyber core when zeals are building and u have constant probe creation, get warpgate, more gates, etc. This is purely personal preference but it works for me.
- Conditions: 1) If you find yourself against muta and 2) you are following the advice in this thread and 3) you want to upgrade past 1/1, then get armor. This is because if you satisfy these conditions, the bulk of your damage comes from storm and stalkers, and +2 ground doesn't help storm at all and has a debatable value as an investment for stalkers. Point is, it doesn't help your comp as much as +2 armor. +2 armor helps health heavy zealot (your core is Z-S-HT), and armored stalkers (getting that critical 6/.5/.5 dmg on stalker health) fight muta ling, and allow them to last longer vs muta. General reasoning is: ground doesn't help storm, helps zeals only against ling, and helps stalkers at varying degrees against muta, depending on who they shoot first (ling or muta). Armor also doesn't help storm, but helps both zeals and stalkers against either lings, or muta, or both.
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On November 23 2011 05:45 Vapaach wrote:
I agree with most points, but I think that phoenix is the ONLY proper way to deal with mutas as protoss, even if you scout the spire as it is already finished. I will now explain why:
To play against muta with no phoenixes, you need to either:
A) Build a ton of cannons, which will eventually still not be enough if the mutaball grows too high (and you won't be able to take a 3rd)
B) Build lots of blink stalkers, which will not allow you to take a 3rd easily if at all
C) Just go 8-gate all-in or something, which is very likely be countered with mass spine + muta ling basetrade + mass hatch everywhere from z, forcing at least a draw if not a win
I will now answer some questions which might explain why phoenix are completely essential against muta:
Why is it hard/impossible to expand without phoenix?
A: Even with great unit and cannon positioning, you still won't be able to immediately have full defenses wherever the muta/ling attack comes. (obs can get shut down with muta + overseer, which most good zergs do nowadays) You will be able to bring your army wherever you need to eventually, but not before taking damage in your army and/or economy. There simply is no way to defend against muta/ling optimally without phoenix, even with AMAZING positioning and awareness. Even if you manage to expand, the Z can just keep expanding freely and massing mutalisks with the map control the z has, and eventually basetrade you whenever you move out. Obviously you will take some damage from the muta harass, which will make you be even more behind in an already bad position.
Why can't you really win with an all-in attack vs muta?
A: The answer is quite simple = basetrade. Muta/ling is an terrific composition to basetrade with due to it's mobility and high dps. Even if you have a significantly superior army, you will eventually be pinned down to a single pylon/nexus/whatever, and have really no hope of attacking. As long as the zerg was smart enough to bring even 1 drone to mine, you have basically lost. Also, splitting your forces is generally a bad idea and could only work if you have over 2x stronger army than your opponent, and the ability to build a durable proxy structure. Even if you bring probes with you, it is almost inconceivable to end in a situatuon where you have a economy that can rival your opponent's, and even if you somehow do, you will just end up in the same situation as before, but in worse shape than the first time.
Why are cannons a bad idea? Turrets are the way to defend against muta harass as terran..
Besides the obvious points mentioned before, there is also an additional problem with cannons, and that is the fact that they don't benefit from upgrades very much at all. They get no additional damage or armor, which is very problematic as the game goes on. As the muta upgrades start to stack, you will find yourself in a situation where you have to either split your army (causing you to take damage) or spend a TON of minerals to cannons (causing you to have a weaker army).
Personally, I never forge FE and always use hallucination to scout and react with double stargate phoenixes with +1 air and +1 shields upgrading. I think having to blindly go stargate with forge FE vs zerg is quite a terrible setback having to deal with.
The fact that zerg can outproduce you nullifies this whole argument. Theory is different than practice here. If I played Zerg, had muta, I can see your base right? 1 Stargate means more muta. 2 Stargate means more muta, or more bases, or more bases and roach, or a lot more roach, or pure ling/bling, more bases and ling/bling, more muta with some corruptors and more bases, etc. See how thats a bad deal for protoss?
You might win at your level with your particular reaction, but to someone who commits properly after seeing what you're doing you will fail pretty bad. I predict a paradigm shift for you in the next 2 months.
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On November 23 2011 05:45 Vapaach wrote:
I agree with most points, but I think that phoenix is the ONLY proper way to deal with mutas as protoss, even if you scout the spire as it is already finished. I will now explain why:
To play against muta with no phoenixes, you need to either:
A) Build a ton of cannons, which will eventually still not be enough if the mutaball grows too high (and you won't be able to take a 3rd)
B) Build lots of blink stalkers, which will not allow you to take a 3rd easily if at all
C) Just go 8-gate all-in or something, which is very likely be countered with mass spine + muta ling basetrade + mass hatch everywhere from z, forcing at least a draw if not a win
I will now answer some questions which might explain why phoenix are completely essential against muta:
Why is it hard/impossible to expand without phoenix?
A: Even with great unit and cannon positioning, you still won't be able to immediately have full defenses wherever the muta/ling attack comes. (obs can get shut down with muta + overseer, which most good zergs do nowadays) You will be able to bring your army wherever you need to eventually, but not before taking damage in your army and/or economy. There simply is no way to defend against muta/ling optimally without phoenix, even with AMAZING positioning and awareness. Even if you manage to expand, the Z can just keep expanding freely and massing mutalisks with the map control the z has, and eventually basetrade you whenever you move out. Obviously you will take some damage from the muta harass, which will make you be even more behind in an already bad position.
Why can't you really win with an all-in attack vs muta?
A: The answer is quite simple = basetrade. Muta/ling is an terrific composition to basetrade with due to it's mobility and high dps. Even if you have a significantly superior army, you will eventually be pinned down to a single pylon/nexus/whatever, and have really no hope of attacking. As long as the zerg was smart enough to bring even 1 drone to mine, you have basically lost. Also, splitting your forces is generally a bad idea and could only work if you have over 2x stronger army than your opponent, and the ability to build a durable proxy structure. Even if you bring probes with you, it is almost inconceivable to end in a situatuon where you have a economy that can rival your opponent's, and even if you somehow do, you will just end up in the same situation as before, but in worse shape than the first time.
Why are cannons a bad idea? Turrets are the way to defend against muta harass as terran..
Besides the obvious points mentioned before, there is also an additional problem with cannons, and that is the fact that they don't benefit from upgrades very much at all. They get no additional damage or armor, which is very problematic as the game goes on. As the muta upgrades start to stack, you will find yourself in a situation where you have to either split your army (causing you to take damage) or spend a TON of minerals to cannons (causing you to have a weaker army).
Personally, I never forge FE and always use hallucination to scout and react with double stargate phoenixes with +1 air and +1 shields upgrading. I think having to blindly go stargate with forge FE vs zerg is quite a terrible setback having to deal with.
So in other words, you completely disagree with me lol. Which is fine. If phoenix works for you, keep doing it. There are many solutions to the same problem and I don't claim to have found the most optimal solution. But please don't say that I'm wrong (i.e. can't expand without pheonix, cannons are bad), or that phoenix is the ONLY way to deal with muta. I think I have explained in detail why my solution works and supported my claims with multiple replays against world class players.
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On November 23 2011 05:50 tehemperorer wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2011 05:45 Vapaach wrote:
I agree with most points, but I think that phoenix is the ONLY proper way to deal with mutas as protoss, even if you scout the spire as it is already finished. I will now explain why:
To play against muta with no phoenixes, you need to either:
A) Build a ton of cannons, which will eventually still not be enough if the mutaball grows too high (and you won't be able to take a 3rd)
B) Build lots of blink stalkers, which will not allow you to take a 3rd easily if at all
C) Just go 8-gate all-in or something, which is very likely be countered with mass spine + muta ling basetrade + mass hatch everywhere from z, forcing at least a draw if not a win
I will now answer some questions which might explain why phoenix are completely essential against muta:
Why is it hard/impossible to expand without phoenix?
A: Even with great unit and cannon positioning, you still won't be able to immediately have full defenses wherever the muta/ling attack comes. (obs can get shut down with muta + overseer, which most good zergs do nowadays) You will be able to bring your army wherever you need to eventually, but not before taking damage in your army and/or economy. There simply is no way to defend against muta/ling optimally without phoenix, even with AMAZING positioning and awareness. Even if you manage to expand, the Z can just keep expanding freely and massing mutalisks with the map control the z has, and eventually basetrade you whenever you move out. Obviously you will take some damage from the muta harass, which will make you be even more behind in an already bad position.
Why can't you really win with an all-in attack vs muta?
A: The answer is quite simple = basetrade. Muta/ling is an terrific composition to basetrade with due to it's mobility and high dps. Even if you have a significantly superior army, you will eventually be pinned down to a single pylon/nexus/whatever, and have really no hope of attacking. As long as the zerg was smart enough to bring even 1 drone to mine, you have basically lost. Also, splitting your forces is generally a bad idea and could only work if you have over 2x stronger army than your opponent, and the ability to build a durable proxy structure. Even if you bring probes with you, it is almost inconceivable to end in a situatuon where you have a economy that can rival your opponent's, and even if you somehow do, you will just end up in the same situation as before, but in worse shape than the first time.
Why are cannons a bad idea? Turrets are the way to defend against muta harass as terran..
Besides the obvious points mentioned before, there is also an additional problem with cannons, and that is the fact that they don't benefit from upgrades very much at all. They get no additional damage or armor, which is very problematic as the game goes on. As the muta upgrades start to stack, you will find yourself in a situation where you have to either split your army (causing you to take damage) or spend a TON of minerals to cannons (causing you to have a weaker army).
Personally, I never forge FE and always use hallucination to scout and react with double stargate phoenixes with +1 air and +1 shields upgrading. I think having to blindly go stargate with forge FE vs zerg is quite a terrible setback having to deal with. The fact that zerg can outproduce you nullifies this whole argument. Theory is different than practice here. If I played Zerg, had muta, I can see your base right? 1 Stargate means more muta. 2 Stargate means more muta, or more bases, or more bases and roach, or a lot more roach, or pure ling/bling, more bases and ling/bling, more muta with some corruptors and more bases, etc. See how thats a bad deal for protoss? You might win at your level with your particular reaction, but to someone who commits properly after seeing what you're doing you will fail pretty bad. I predict a paradigm shift for you in the next 2 months.
Obviously the tech switch IS possible, but I should be able to scout it in time and react accordingly. Also, I am a high masters player (currently rank 7 with 800 points) who has beaten 10+ EU gms as well if that makes my point any more valid ^^. If you stop making mutas, I can harass drones, overlords and queens with the phoenix (and force spores/additional queens), allowing me to get an economical advanage. If you switch to pure roach, I can just make a few voids. In the case of infestors, phoenixes are great. If you make hydras, I should be able to kill some with the phoenixes and have enough time to make colossi/templar/enough gateway units. Obviously there are situations where you can win a game due to circumstances unrelated to army composition, but in a normal situation these rules should apply.
On November 23 2011 05:54 coL.rsvp wrote:
So in other words, you completely disagree with me lol. Which is fine. If phoenix works for you, keep doing it. There are many solutions to the same problem and I don't claim to have found the most optimal solution. But please don't say that I'm wrong (i.e. can't expand without pheonix, cannons are bad), or that phoenix is the ONLY way to deal with muta. I think I have explained in detail why my solution works and supported my claims with multiple replays against world class players.
I think you have great points with the suppositions you make, but there is one flaw in the whole concept of non-phoenix muta defense: you rely heavily on observers. I used to use the observer + gateway unit strategy a lot, and it actually worked very well. At some point in my games some zergs started smartly killing the observers with overseers, and it is quite risky to rely on something that can be denied regardless of your actions (or can you disagree?). Not only do I end up being vulnerable but I also lose a ton of gas for nothing. It is definitely possible to win without phoenix, but I think the phoenix way of dealing with it is more consistent.
I would be very interested to hear your thoughts about how to keep observers alive, or how to deal with muta/ling without them.
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Brunei Darussalam566 Posts
I have a question: what do you do if Zerg flies his mutas directly over your army, should you still storm (maybe blinking the stalkers away)? I mean, if not, you would only be able to get 1 storm off until the mutas are over your doods.
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On November 23 2011 06:07 Romitelli wrote:
I have a question: what do you do if Zerg flies his mutas directly over your army, should you still storm (maybe blinking the stalkers away)? I mean, if not, you would only be able to get 1 storm off until the mutas are over your doods.
Yes. You will hit more mutas than your own units, and plus your own units have more health than mutas so they die first anyway. I'd even storm my own probes if there was a huge muta ball over my mineral line.
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Brunei Darussalam566 Posts
On November 23 2011 06:18 coL.rsvp wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2011 06:07 Romitelli wrote:
I have a question: what do you do if Zerg flies his mutas directly over your army, should you still storm (maybe blinking the stalkers away)? I mean, if not, you would only be able to get 1 storm off until the mutas are over your doods. Yes. You will hit more mutas than your own units, and plus your own units have more health than mutas so they die first anyway. I'd even storm my own probes if there was a huge muta ball over my mineral line.
Thank you for the prompt answer! PvZ has been so difficult lately that I have even considered switching.
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On November 22 2011 13:14 Jonas wrote:Awesome OP, thanks for writing that up, rsvp. Question: since muta/ling can basically go anywhere they want, you will not be able to defend all of your bases at once when your army moves out (I have a hard enough time defending all of my bases when my army is in my base, lol). So in what order should you try to save your bases when the zerg does inevitably go for a base trade? Is saving your tech tree more important than saving your mining bases? Should I preemptively build key tech structures at my expansion? if so when?
2 ht at each base, make cannons, observer spot the mutas, and you can cost effectively defend as you roll their front.
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I think the best way to deal with muta, use ht and blink stalkers, strom with blinking back weaking stalkers will make the fight so much better
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2nd replay was an aweeeeeeeesome game against violet, grats
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EPT
