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This guide gives me some hope, I'll definitely watch the replays and take advantage of the advices.
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On November 22 2011 03:47 Geiko wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 03:08 coL.rsvp wrote:
I dunno about the phoenix around the map, that's a bit too theorycrafty for me :p You should try it! I have. They just get killed when I'm not paying attention  Wondering if it could work with someone more careful then I am. I think I'll try Harstem's idea rather. Hallucinated phoenix sound less risky.
You can try it, but I don't like it because it still sounds like a drain on apm (at least more so than observers), and also I discourage sentries against mutas so if you already have sentries saved up then sure but I would not suggest remaking several sentries just for hallucination.
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On November 22 2011 03:52 mizU wrote:
Don't you want to not have cannons touching to reduce splash?
Mutas don't have a "splash" attack. They have a bounce attack, which means each shot will hit 3 targets regardless (as long as there is a unit near the initial target).
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Thanks for this thread, rsvp. Mutas make a comeback and we need help from you the pros/GMs.
At my level (plat), they are present half of the games. The other half are all-ins trying to break the FFEs 
Regarding what Cecil said about student having the issue of not being agressive enough and so letting the zerg play mutas, I must say that the most successful muta play I encounter is roach into muta. They make a respectable number of roaches, which leads me to sit back and tech to robo, then when my first obs scouts the spire, it's roba bay cancel time and exactly what rsvp says. But they already have 10 incoming mutas ready to shit glaives all over my expos, too late for the 2 base all-in.
Also I'm not good enough to have perfect storms or react fast enough for the parked HTs to no be sniped by the incoming mutas I'll try the spread obs and see if it helps. What I do usually is get a shitton of cannons (well, 5-6 per expo).
Again, at my level, archons are good I found, because the zergs cannot magicbox properly. But yes, storm is so good against muta/ling it makes me cry.
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On November 22 2011 03:18 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 03:10 coL.rsvp wrote:On November 22 2011 02:59 CecilSunkure wrote:On November 22 2011 02:51 coL.rsvp wrote:On November 22 2011 02:44 CecilSunkure wrote:On November 22 2011 02:41 coL.rsvp wrote:
I mentioned that although attacking off 2 base is a great strat against muta I'm not going to discuss it here. I don't really get why you'd skip a gigantic portion of why people have problems with Mutas in the first place. As of now this thread won't really apply to most people in as meaningful of a way as if you directly address the problems (I talked about in my other post) most low level players have. This guide is focused on how to react to mutas and play against the style mid-late game. It seems like the problems you mention low-level players have are just basic how to play PvZ early game? What does that have to do with mutas though? The reason why I don't discuss 2 base attacks against mutas is because I personally don't have much experience with it. If you or someone else has replays/suggestions of how to just kill the zerg if he goes mutas, let me know and I'll add to the OP. It has to do with Mutas probably because it's really hard for someone to realize just how far behind they are when they play against a Muta/Ling player because all those Mutas and Lings sorta stack together really easily. If you play against a bunch of Roaches, then it's easy to see just how many roaches and just how far ahead your opponent was when you lost. You don't have to talk about attacking off of 2 bases specifically, but it's like I said in my other post: On November 22 2011 01:31 CecilSunkure wrote:
I guarantee you most people have trouble against mutas because they fail to play PvZ properly in the early/mid game, leaving the Z with a huge income disparity in comparison the Protoss. This results in a huge amount of resources dumped into a Muta/Ling army, and that huge amount of resources keeps the Protoss from getting their needed vespene until the Protoss is finally fed up, runs out into the middle of the map in a last ditch attempt to death roll across the map where they get obliterated by Muta/Ling.
Happened in every student replay of mine where "Muta/Ling" was a concern. Basically they let the Zerg get too many drones by playing really badly, the Zerg makes a load of Mutas, and they think "Man Mutas are really hard to deal with" -> they interpret Mutas as the problem rather than attributing it to their bad play. Ok, I agree with everything you've said but I still don't see how that has anything to do with defending against mutas? Maybe you're suggesting that I should put some kind of disclaimer to this discussion/guide that it's only applicable to higher level players? Oh I see what you mean. Okay so I've had a lot of lessons with a lot of students. Every time "Muta Ling" comes up as a topic, I end up actually addressing their bad play instead of the Mutas specifically. This is because Mutas are really easy to blame as a problem during a game instead of a Protoss actually playing bad. So then people will open this thread, see good advice, and then try it in their games and lose anyways, because they simply are playing bad. So I'd suggest writing something like: - Mutas shouldn't be accessible by a Zerg player in un-manageable numbers too early unless a Protoss is highly passive.
- Knowing this, a good Protoss will not let a Zerg bank enough resources to suddenly explode with many Mutas too early.
- Many people suffering from "Mutalisks" are really suffering from highly passive and in general bad PvZ play.
- If you let a Zerg make too many drones freely, they will often times make a large Muta ball that you cannot actually deal with unless you played equally as greedy.
- Playing more active and with proper PvZ will result in a manageable Muta Ball, to which the rest of the guide applies.
I'd try to write a little more but I got class now and gotta run.
I was just wondering how would you let Zerg not drone and expand freely once he gets his mutas?
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Awesome "guide"(?).
Some of the protoss players I know is whining about mass muta being impossible to deal with but hopefully this will help them
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Thanks alot for the post, definitely some stuff in there that will help me out!
Few comments:
1) Whenever I play against this, I always feel like I'm scrambling, which kinda messes up my game. But, hopefully I can play better next time with your advice
2) I find zergling runby's to be extremely difficult - in your first replay you had 5 cannons at your 3rd, and they just took them out easily, while killing the HT before you could react, and destroying your third which is a great deal for the zerg (all minerals, and now protoss can't get gas). I'm wondering if there is something more we could do in this area of defending expansions. Better sim city? Perhaps doing an almost complete wallin with a HT inside? Then blocking the last remaining space with probes so they can get in when attacking? If there was only one space through which to get probes, the zerglings would die off pretty quick as the ran single file in...
3) Along with some zealots, I'm wondering if a couple of colossi would be helpful to take care of zerglings/broodlings? No need for the range upgrade. You didn't seem to need immortals for the spine crawlers, and I think micro'd blink stalkers work well vs the spine crawlers anyway.
4) Have you ever made like 8 DT and then just took out an expansion and then run home to change into archons?
As well, I think you are right and should perhaps emphasize - its more import to get your 3rd as protoss than for the zerg to lose one of his expansions.
Sigh, it really seems like protoss have to work harder to defend this style than any other really...
Cheers!
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[/QUOTE]
I was just wondering how would you let Zerg not drone and expand freely once he gets his mutas?
[/QUOTE]
Agreed on this, assuming a standard FFE or early gate expo, some advice here would be nice. Say we send some early zealots in and see nothing but lings or do scout the spire, what kind of followup would you recommend?
The post is great though, gonna watch the replays now as mutas are a nightmare. Also didn't realize rsvp was Anihc, always has great posts <3.
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On November 22 2011 04:09 K3Nyy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 03:18 CecilSunkure wrote:On November 22 2011 03:10 coL.rsvp wrote:On November 22 2011 02:59 CecilSunkure wrote:On November 22 2011 02:51 coL.rsvp wrote:On November 22 2011 02:44 CecilSunkure wrote:On November 22 2011 02:41 coL.rsvp wrote:
I mentioned that although attacking off 2 base is a great strat against muta I'm not going to discuss it here. I don't really get why you'd skip a gigantic portion of why people have problems with Mutas in the first place. As of now this thread won't really apply to most people in as meaningful of a way as if you directly address the problems (I talked about in my other post) most low level players have. This guide is focused on how to react to mutas and play against the style mid-late game. It seems like the problems you mention low-level players have are just basic how to play PvZ early game? What does that have to do with mutas though? The reason why I don't discuss 2 base attacks against mutas is because I personally don't have much experience with it. If you or someone else has replays/suggestions of how to just kill the zerg if he goes mutas, let me know and I'll add to the OP. It has to do with Mutas probably because it's really hard for someone to realize just how far behind they are when they play against a Muta/Ling player because all those Mutas and Lings sorta stack together really easily. If you play against a bunch of Roaches, then it's easy to see just how many roaches and just how far ahead your opponent was when you lost. You don't have to talk about attacking off of 2 bases specifically, but it's like I said in my other post: On November 22 2011 01:31 CecilSunkure wrote:
I guarantee you most people have trouble against mutas because they fail to play PvZ properly in the early/mid game, leaving the Z with a huge income disparity in comparison the Protoss. This results in a huge amount of resources dumped into a Muta/Ling army, and that huge amount of resources keeps the Protoss from getting their needed vespene until the Protoss is finally fed up, runs out into the middle of the map in a last ditch attempt to death roll across the map where they get obliterated by Muta/Ling.
Happened in every student replay of mine where "Muta/Ling" was a concern. Basically they let the Zerg get too many drones by playing really badly, the Zerg makes a load of Mutas, and they think "Man Mutas are really hard to deal with" -> they interpret Mutas as the problem rather than attributing it to their bad play. Ok, I agree with everything you've said but I still don't see how that has anything to do with defending against mutas? Maybe you're suggesting that I should put some kind of disclaimer to this discussion/guide that it's only applicable to higher level players? Oh I see what you mean. Okay so I've had a lot of lessons with a lot of students. Every time "Muta Ling" comes up as a topic, I end up actually addressing their bad play instead of the Mutas specifically. This is because Mutas are really easy to blame as a problem during a game instead of a Protoss actually playing bad. So then people will open this thread, see good advice, and then try it in their games and lose anyways, because they simply are playing bad. So I'd suggest writing something like: - Mutas shouldn't be accessible by a Zerg player in un-manageable numbers too early unless a Protoss is highly passive.
- Knowing this, a good Protoss will not let a Zerg bank enough resources to suddenly explode with many Mutas too early.
- Many people suffering from "Mutalisks" are really suffering from highly passive and in general bad PvZ play.
- If you let a Zerg make too many drones freely, they will often times make a large Muta ball that you cannot actually deal with unless you played equally as greedy.
- Playing more active and with proper PvZ will result in a manageable Muta Ball, to which the rest of the guide applies.
I'd try to write a little more but I got class now and gotta run. I was just wondering how would you let Zerg not drone and expand freely once he gets his mutas?
He means before mutas.
The low-risk tactic of sending out a small force of units towards a Z base at around 4-6 minutes to force the Z to make some units instead of drones is the first thing to come to mind. Even Naniwa's 2 zealot "push" forces a Z to make at least 6 lings early in the game when they want to be droning as hard as possible. Most Z players will only have their initial 2-4 lings right up to 6 minutes, forcing a few units cuts heavily into their early drone production. And you don't even need to deal damage with your army. Turn them around once you think you've convinced the Z player to respond.
The more early drones you can deny in the game, the longer it will take before the Z hits critical mass to start their endless macro cycle.
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Thanks RSVP. I look to your posts and your authority because you are a good player and you are always gracious on these forums. I have struggled with multi/ling in PvZ and the threads that have developed contain so much contradictory information. You suggestions of a (relatively) fast 3rd, a bunch of obs, and storm seems solid. I believe in this advice, but I feel that high templar are always such a gamble to the extent that they are easily picked off. However, with the obs to spot the muta, that should help me micro templar in my base to storm before they get picked off.
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On November 22 2011 03:18 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 03:10 coL.rsvp wrote:On November 22 2011 02:59 CecilSunkure wrote:On November 22 2011 02:51 coL.rsvp wrote:On November 22 2011 02:44 CecilSunkure wrote:On November 22 2011 02:41 coL.rsvp wrote:
I mentioned that although attacking off 2 base is a great strat against muta I'm not going to discuss it here. I don't really get why you'd skip a gigantic portion of why people have problems with Mutas in the first place. As of now this thread won't really apply to most people in as meaningful of a way as if you directly address the problems (I talked about in my other post) most low level players have. This guide is focused on how to react to mutas and play against the style mid-late game. It seems like the problems you mention low-level players have are just basic how to play PvZ early game? What does that have to do with mutas though? The reason why I don't discuss 2 base attacks against mutas is because I personally don't have much experience with it. If you or someone else has replays/suggestions of how to just kill the zerg if he goes mutas, let me know and I'll add to the OP. It has to do with Mutas probably because it's really hard for someone to realize just how far behind they are when they play against a Muta/Ling player because all those Mutas and Lings sorta stack together really easily. If you play against a bunch of Roaches, then it's easy to see just how many roaches and just how far ahead your opponent was when you lost. You don't have to talk about attacking off of 2 bases specifically, but it's like I said in my other post: On November 22 2011 01:31 CecilSunkure wrote:
I guarantee you most people have trouble against mutas because they fail to play PvZ properly in the early/mid game, leaving the Z with a huge income disparity in comparison the Protoss. This results in a huge amount of resources dumped into a Muta/Ling army, and that huge amount of resources keeps the Protoss from getting their needed vespene until the Protoss is finally fed up, runs out into the middle of the map in a last ditch attempt to death roll across the map where they get obliterated by Muta/Ling.
Happened in every student replay of mine where "Muta/Ling" was a concern. Basically they let the Zerg get too many drones by playing really badly, the Zerg makes a load of Mutas, and they think "Man Mutas are really hard to deal with" -> they interpret Mutas as the problem rather than attributing it to their bad play. Ok, I agree with everything you've said but I still don't see how that has anything to do with defending against mutas? Maybe you're suggesting that I should put some kind of disclaimer to this discussion/guide that it's only applicable to higher level players? Oh I see what you mean. Okay so I've had a lot of lessons with a lot of students. Every time "Muta Ling" comes up as a topic, I end up actually addressing their bad play instead of the Mutas specifically. This is because Mutas are really easy to blame as a problem during a game instead of a Protoss actually playing bad. So then people will open this thread, see good advice, and then try it in their games and lose anyways, because they simply are playing bad. So I'd suggest writing something like: - Mutas shouldn't be accessible by a Zerg player in un-manageable numbers too early unless a Protoss is highly passive.
- Knowing this, a good Protoss will not let a Zerg bank enough resources to suddenly explode with many Mutas too early.
- Many people suffering from "Mutalisks" are really suffering from highly passive and in general bad PvZ play.
- If you let a Zerg make too many drones freely, they will often times make a large Muta ball that you cannot actually deal with unless you played equally as greedy.
- Playing more active and with proper PvZ will result in a manageable Muta Ball, to which the rest of the guide applies.
I'd try to write a little more but I got class now and gotta run.
I dunno man. In my experience and in a lot of pro games that I've seen, Z can safely get a lot of mutas out even if P plays well. P can slow it down with pressure, and if P's build is designed for pressure at the right times, that's even better. But it seems to me that Zergs have largely learned how to deal with 2-base pressure (usually defending with roaches and switching to mutas once they're safe), and that preventing muta balls from ever being built is no longer a reliable option. Good all-ins can work, but a good Protoss player also needs to know how to play macro vs muta.
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Canada13389 Posts
On November 22 2011 04:24 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 03:18 CecilSunkure wrote:On November 22 2011 03:10 coL.rsvp wrote:On November 22 2011 02:59 CecilSunkure wrote:On November 22 2011 02:51 coL.rsvp wrote:On November 22 2011 02:44 CecilSunkure wrote:On November 22 2011 02:41 coL.rsvp wrote:
I mentioned that although attacking off 2 base is a great strat against muta I'm not going to discuss it here. I don't really get why you'd skip a gigantic portion of why people have problems with Mutas in the first place. As of now this thread won't really apply to most people in as meaningful of a way as if you directly address the problems (I talked about in my other post) most low level players have. This guide is focused on how to react to mutas and play against the style mid-late game. It seems like the problems you mention low-level players have are just basic how to play PvZ early game? What does that have to do with mutas though? The reason why I don't discuss 2 base attacks against mutas is because I personally don't have much experience with it. If you or someone else has replays/suggestions of how to just kill the zerg if he goes mutas, let me know and I'll add to the OP. It has to do with Mutas probably because it's really hard for someone to realize just how far behind they are when they play against a Muta/Ling player because all those Mutas and Lings sorta stack together really easily. If you play against a bunch of Roaches, then it's easy to see just how many roaches and just how far ahead your opponent was when you lost. You don't have to talk about attacking off of 2 bases specifically, but it's like I said in my other post: On November 22 2011 01:31 CecilSunkure wrote:
I guarantee you most people have trouble against mutas because they fail to play PvZ properly in the early/mid game, leaving the Z with a huge income disparity in comparison the Protoss. This results in a huge amount of resources dumped into a Muta/Ling army, and that huge amount of resources keeps the Protoss from getting their needed vespene until the Protoss is finally fed up, runs out into the middle of the map in a last ditch attempt to death roll across the map where they get obliterated by Muta/Ling.
Happened in every student replay of mine where "Muta/Ling" was a concern. Basically they let the Zerg get too many drones by playing really badly, the Zerg makes a load of Mutas, and they think "Man Mutas are really hard to deal with" -> they interpret Mutas as the problem rather than attributing it to their bad play. Ok, I agree with everything you've said but I still don't see how that has anything to do with defending against mutas? Maybe you're suggesting that I should put some kind of disclaimer to this discussion/guide that it's only applicable to higher level players? Oh I see what you mean. Okay so I've had a lot of lessons with a lot of students. Every time "Muta Ling" comes up as a topic, I end up actually addressing their bad play instead of the Mutas specifically. This is because Mutas are really easy to blame as a problem during a game instead of a Protoss actually playing bad. So then people will open this thread, see good advice, and then try it in their games and lose anyways, because they simply are playing bad. So I'd suggest writing something like: - Mutas shouldn't be accessible by a Zerg player in un-manageable numbers too early unless a Protoss is highly passive.
- Knowing this, a good Protoss will not let a Zerg bank enough resources to suddenly explode with many Mutas too early.
- Many people suffering from "Mutalisks" are really suffering from highly passive and in general bad PvZ play.
- If you let a Zerg make too many drones freely, they will often times make a large Muta ball that you cannot actually deal with unless you played equally as greedy.
- Playing more active and with proper PvZ will result in a manageable Muta Ball, to which the rest of the guide applies.
I'd try to write a little more but I got class now and gotta run. I dunno man. In my experience and in a lot of pro games that I've seen, Z can safely get a lot of mutas out even if P plays well. P can slow it down with pressure, and if P's build is designed for pressure at the right times, that's even better. But it seems to me that Zergs have largely learned how to deal with 2-base pressure (usually defending with roaches and switching to mutas once they're safe), and that preventing muta balls from ever being built is no longer a reliable option. Good all-ins can work, but a good Protoss player also needs to know how to play macro vs muta.
Yeah I agree. I rarely see Pros win against Muta play and if I do its with some sort of all in before the muta ball gets completely unmanageable.
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Im a zerg player and as soon as I see archons I just stop making muta because the splash kills them so fast so I transition out of them.
Personally I dont use muta so much in ZvP and ive actually switched over to ling hydra corruptor and it seems to be doing interesting things for the matchup for me. Its a fairly fragile unit composition but it seems to be working in most cases since either the ling hydra attack is timed perfect and kills the other player or if they get out colossus I have the corruptor to kill them off. Then after that if I see storm I switch out but most of the time the game is over before they can tech switch again.
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Perhaps you should add a screenshot of how to actually storm mutas/air units? Some people may not realize you actually have to storm at the dots below the mutas. I also think it's worth mentioning that you aren't advocating a purely passive game, and that putting pressure on the zerg can often force the zerg to make defenses (especially roaches) which delays mutas.
I think most people who have issues with mutas either are too passive initially so zerg can get mutas out super fast, and/or they incorrectly assess when they can push out. For me personally, when I feel forced to push out it's less of a "mutas harass is too hard to deal with" and more of a "he's powering his economy to a level where I must end this now" type of mentality.
Also what do you think about DT play instead of HT? I've had some mixed success by using DTs to deny mass expansions long enough to mass an army to push out. Then you can morph DTs into archons to strengthen your push.
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in my opinion getting sheilds is a lot better than armour because when using blink on your stalkers, you blink when your lose all your sheilds and take very minimal hull damage. sheilds also benefits cannons a lot against the muta glaive wyum.
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On November 22 2011 04:24 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 03:18 CecilSunkure wrote:On November 22 2011 03:10 coL.rsvp wrote:On November 22 2011 02:59 CecilSunkure wrote:On November 22 2011 02:51 coL.rsvp wrote:On November 22 2011 02:44 CecilSunkure wrote:On November 22 2011 02:41 coL.rsvp wrote:
I mentioned that although attacking off 2 base is a great strat against muta I'm not going to discuss it here. I don't really get why you'd skip a gigantic portion of why people have problems with Mutas in the first place. As of now this thread won't really apply to most people in as meaningful of a way as if you directly address the problems (I talked about in my other post) most low level players have. This guide is focused on how to react to mutas and play against the style mid-late game. It seems like the problems you mention low-level players have are just basic how to play PvZ early game? What does that have to do with mutas though? The reason why I don't discuss 2 base attacks against mutas is because I personally don't have much experience with it. If you or someone else has replays/suggestions of how to just kill the zerg if he goes mutas, let me know and I'll add to the OP. It has to do with Mutas probably because it's really hard for someone to realize just how far behind they are when they play against a Muta/Ling player because all those Mutas and Lings sorta stack together really easily. If you play against a bunch of Roaches, then it's easy to see just how many roaches and just how far ahead your opponent was when you lost. You don't have to talk about attacking off of 2 bases specifically, but it's like I said in my other post: On November 22 2011 01:31 CecilSunkure wrote:
I guarantee you most people have trouble against mutas because they fail to play PvZ properly in the early/mid game, leaving the Z with a huge income disparity in comparison the Protoss. This results in a huge amount of resources dumped into a Muta/Ling army, and that huge amount of resources keeps the Protoss from getting their needed vespene until the Protoss is finally fed up, runs out into the middle of the map in a last ditch attempt to death roll across the map where they get obliterated by Muta/Ling.
Happened in every student replay of mine where "Muta/Ling" was a concern. Basically they let the Zerg get too many drones by playing really badly, the Zerg makes a load of Mutas, and they think "Man Mutas are really hard to deal with" -> they interpret Mutas as the problem rather than attributing it to their bad play. Ok, I agree with everything you've said but I still don't see how that has anything to do with defending against mutas? Maybe you're suggesting that I should put some kind of disclaimer to this discussion/guide that it's only applicable to higher level players? Oh I see what you mean. Okay so I've had a lot of lessons with a lot of students. Every time "Muta Ling" comes up as a topic, I end up actually addressing their bad play instead of the Mutas specifically. This is because Mutas are really easy to blame as a problem during a game instead of a Protoss actually playing bad. So then people will open this thread, see good advice, and then try it in their games and lose anyways, because they simply are playing bad. So I'd suggest writing something like: - Mutas shouldn't be accessible by a Zerg player in un-manageable numbers too early unless a Protoss is highly passive.
- Knowing this, a good Protoss will not let a Zerg bank enough resources to suddenly explode with many Mutas too early.
- Many people suffering from "Mutalisks" are really suffering from highly passive and in general bad PvZ play.
- If you let a Zerg make too many drones freely, they will often times make a large Muta ball that you cannot actually deal with unless you played equally as greedy.
- Playing more active and with proper PvZ will result in a manageable Muta Ball, to which the rest of the guide applies.
I'd try to write a little more but I got class now and gotta run. I dunno man. In my experience and in a lot of pro games that I've seen, Z can safely get a lot of mutas out even if P plays well. P can slow it down with pressure, and if P's build is designed for pressure at the right times, that's even better. But it seems to me that Zergs have largely learned how to deal with 2-base pressure (usually defending with roaches and switching to mutas once they're safe), and that preventing muta balls from ever being built is no longer a reliable option. Good all-ins can work, but a good Protoss player also needs to know how to play macro vs muta.
I'm not talking about Macro Muta... -.-
On November 22 2011 05:24 ZeromuS wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 04:24 kcdc wrote:On November 22 2011 03:18 CecilSunkure wrote:On November 22 2011 03:10 coL.rsvp wrote:On November 22 2011 02:59 CecilSunkure wrote:On November 22 2011 02:51 coL.rsvp wrote:On November 22 2011 02:44 CecilSunkure wrote:On November 22 2011 02:41 coL.rsvp wrote:
I mentioned that although attacking off 2 base is a great strat against muta I'm not going to discuss it here. I don't really get why you'd skip a gigantic portion of why people have problems with Mutas in the first place. As of now this thread won't really apply to most people in as meaningful of a way as if you directly address the problems (I talked about in my other post) most low level players have. This guide is focused on how to react to mutas and play against the style mid-late game. It seems like the problems you mention low-level players have are just basic how to play PvZ early game? What does that have to do with mutas though? The reason why I don't discuss 2 base attacks against mutas is because I personally don't have much experience with it. If you or someone else has replays/suggestions of how to just kill the zerg if he goes mutas, let me know and I'll add to the OP. It has to do with Mutas probably because it's really hard for someone to realize just how far behind they are when they play against a Muta/Ling player because all those Mutas and Lings sorta stack together really easily. If you play against a bunch of Roaches, then it's easy to see just how many roaches and just how far ahead your opponent was when you lost. You don't have to talk about attacking off of 2 bases specifically, but it's like I said in my other post: On November 22 2011 01:31 CecilSunkure wrote:
I guarantee you most people have trouble against mutas because they fail to play PvZ properly in the early/mid game, leaving the Z with a huge income disparity in comparison the Protoss. This results in a huge amount of resources dumped into a Muta/Ling army, and that huge amount of resources keeps the Protoss from getting their needed vespene until the Protoss is finally fed up, runs out into the middle of the map in a last ditch attempt to death roll across the map where they get obliterated by Muta/Ling.
Happened in every student replay of mine where "Muta/Ling" was a concern. Basically they let the Zerg get too many drones by playing really badly, the Zerg makes a load of Mutas, and they think "Man Mutas are really hard to deal with" -> they interpret Mutas as the problem rather than attributing it to their bad play. Ok, I agree with everything you've said but I still don't see how that has anything to do with defending against mutas? Maybe you're suggesting that I should put some kind of disclaimer to this discussion/guide that it's only applicable to higher level players? Oh I see what you mean. Okay so I've had a lot of lessons with a lot of students. Every time "Muta Ling" comes up as a topic, I end up actually addressing their bad play instead of the Mutas specifically. This is because Mutas are really easy to blame as a problem during a game instead of a Protoss actually playing bad. So then people will open this thread, see good advice, and then try it in their games and lose anyways, because they simply are playing bad. So I'd suggest writing something like: - Mutas shouldn't be accessible by a Zerg player in un-manageable numbers too early unless a Protoss is highly passive.
- Knowing this, a good Protoss will not let a Zerg bank enough resources to suddenly explode with many Mutas too early.
- Many people suffering from "Mutalisks" are really suffering from highly passive and in general bad PvZ play.
- If you let a Zerg make too many drones freely, they will often times make a large Muta ball that you cannot actually deal with unless you played equally as greedy.
- Playing more active and with proper PvZ will result in a manageable Muta Ball, to which the rest of the guide applies.
I'd try to write a little more but I got class now and gotta run. I dunno man. In my experience and in a lot of pro games that I've seen, Z can safely get a lot of mutas out even if P plays well. P can slow it down with pressure, and if P's build is designed for pressure at the right times, that's even better. But it seems to me that Zergs have largely learned how to deal with 2-base pressure (usually defending with roaches and switching to mutas once they're safe), and that preventing muta balls from ever being built is no longer a reliable option. Good all-ins can work, but a good Protoss player also needs to know how to play macro vs muta. Yeah I agree. I rarely see Pros win against Muta play and if I do its with some sort of all in before the muta ball gets completely unmanageable.
Sort of feel like nobody is really listening to what I'm saying.
CecilSunkure said:
Mutas shouldn't be accessible by a Zerg player in un-manageable numbers too early unless a Protoss is highly passive.
CecilSunkure said:
Knowing this, a good Protoss will not let a Zerg bank enough resources to suddenly explode with many Mutas too early.
I'm clearly not talking about pro players or pro games, I'm addressing a problem that I see. This is coming from empathy of how low level players play, think, and come onto the forums and think. This means if someone new to the forums or SC2 comes in here and reads the thread, they'll probably get a bunch of great advice that they simply can't apply -and they won't even know it unless they read my posts.
Sorry if it sounds like I'm making a big deal out of all this, but I just feel really terrible knowing people are going to get confused or miss important info when the solution to the problem is really as simple as pointing out: Muta numbers should always be manageable if you don't let a Zerg opponent run free for 13 minutes. If you let a decent Zerg run free for too long, it doesn't matter what tactics or strategies you use, as there will simply be too big of an income disparity from improper play to make a difference.
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This is a very very excellent read and I felt that very recently PvZ had pretty much just ended up revolving around surprising the Protoss with a whole bunch of mutas. This is perfect as this thread was made just as I was looking for ways to deal with mutas as I usually feel it's quite impossible to outproduce in phoenix etc.
Concerning using HT to guard your mineral line, let's pretend you didn't notice the mutas on the minimap and they're already in your mineral line, is it worth it to storm everything in your mineral line? Actually now I think about it, it make more sense to pull probes but by that point your HT might be dead. I guess I would simply need more map awareness?
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Just add a simple statement stating this guide, while the ideas apply vs muta play in general, is specificly about 3 base macro muta styles where the toss and zerg enter the early mid game with neither side having a large lead.
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RSVP You are the man! Thaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaanks
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Great post. Love your stream too
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EPT
