EPTPhoton canons? Its too early for colossus, so I just get overwhelmed. I can hold pretty easily if there are no scvs. But I just die at that point most games where I try this.
[G] A slightly improved PvT 1 gate FE - Page 5
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Necrophantasia
Japan299 Posts
Photon canons? Its too early for colossus, so I just get overwhelmed. I can hold pretty easily if there are no scvs. But I just die at that point most games where I try this. | ||
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Fairwell
Austria195 Posts
On November 18 2011 08:01 kcdc wrote: Honestly, I hadn't thought of doing that. It sounds like it would be difficult to execute because it's hard to chain 5 chronoboosts on WG tech perfectly. Having played PvP, I don't think a 5:30 warp-in is a realistic expectation for me in a game.....and I'm pretty sure it's not possible off of a 13-gate. I've been doing the 11gate/3gate pressure build in pvp as of lately a lot and therefore being forced to practice using 5cb on warpgates nicely, vs the ai I managed like 5:28min, in a real game where you need to check for sneaky bunkers going up around your nexus vs a 2rax etc this will look different for sure. :-) I did some runs vs the ai now and i found out that if you follow your bo perfectly vs the 2rax (that means 2cb on nexus, cut probes slightly to get up your 2nd gate in time at 27supply, then start sentry and then probe afterwards) and you use one cb each on the first sentry (like you do in your reply) and one on the zealot (which you did, but pretty late) the timing works out perfectly. I'll therefore stick to your version, it times out nicely and seems solid to me. I'm really not afraid of 1rax conc pushes, just of 2raxing. :-) Sidenote: You should maybe fix the order in your guide where you wrote that you get a gate, then probe and then a sentry vs 2rax, while actually it times out perfectly if you get gate, then sentry and then get your next probe (like you also did vs Pokebunny). This is just a minor detail though, but maybe you can change the order in your guide and also add information about your cb usage (3times on wg, 1x sentry, 1x 2nd zealot). If you happen to run into a terran doing the 2rax while grabbing 8-10scvs and you hold it nicely, could you upload a replay of this please? I would be really nice to see a good execution on how to use your probes and units in combination in that circumstance. | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On November 18 2011 08:23 Fairwell wrote: I've been doing the 11gate/3gate pressure build in pvp as of lately a lot and therefore being forced to practice using 5cb on warpgates nicely, vs the ai I managed like 5:28min, in a real game where you need to check for sneaky bunkers going up around your nexus vs a 2rax etc this will look different for sure. :-) I did some runs vs the ai now and i found out that if you follow your bo perfectly vs the 2rax (that means 2cb on nexus, cut probes slightly to get up your 2nd gate in time at 27supply, then start sentry and then probe afterwards) and you use one cb each on the first sentry (like you do in your reply) and one on the zealot (which you did, but pretty late) the timing works out perfectly. I'll therefore stick to your version, it times out nicely and seems solid to me. I'm really not afraid of 1rax conc pushes, just of 2raxing. :-) Sidenote: You should maybe fix the order in your guide where you wrote that you get a gate, then probe and then a sentry vs 2rax, while actually it times out perfectly if you get gate, then sentry and then get your next probe (like you also did vs Pokebunny). This is just a minor detail though, but maybe you can change the order in your guide and also add information about your cb usage (3times on wg, 1x sentry, 1x 2nd zealot). If you happen to run into a terran doing the 2rax while grabbing 8-10scvs and you hold it nicely, could you upload a replay of this please? I would be really nice to see a good execution on how to use your probes and units in combination in that circumstance. Good comment. I don't think I've ever run into that many SCVs pulled with a 2 rax, but I'll let you know if I do. I actually do get the probe before sentry usually, although in that game, I knew he was 2 raxing, so I might have gone sentry first. The difference in order is only 5 game seconds, so it's not much different either way. | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On November 18 2011 08:19 Necrophantasia wrote: How do you respond with this build if your opponent goes 1 base marine marauder and hits you at around 8:30 with like 8-10 scvs pulled? Photon canons? Its too early for colossus, so I just get overwhelmed. I can hold pretty easily if there are no scvs. But I just die at that point most games where I try this. I don't remember running into that, but I imagine I'd just hold back as long as I can to maximize my unit count and pull probes when I feel forced to fight. This sounds like one of those problems you'd have with any 1 gate FE. | ||
QTIP.
United States2113 Posts
In other words, at what point do you get the Robo when you don't know if 2-rax is going to hit you, or Cloaked banshee is going to hit you? | ||
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Quochobao
United States350 Posts
On November 18 2011 12:32 QTIP. wrote: At what point due you decide to get a Robo if you you don't see a 2nd rax go down, but know that they are collecting gas? In other words, at what point do you get the Robo when you don't know if 2-rax is going to hit you, or Cloaked banshee is going to hit you? I would like to know the answer to this too. Do I go up to three gates and then add a robo? What is the immediate transition after maynarding the probes? | ||
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StrinterN
Denmark531 Posts
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CaptainHaz
United States240 Posts
On November 18 2011 15:33 Quochobao wrote: I would like to know the answer to this too. Do I go up to three gates and then add a robo? What is the immediate transition after maynarding the probes? The robo+3gate+gas timing is basically cut at ~30 probes or so and drop everything unless you can otherwise confirm that he's going for bio. You can drop double forges here, but I personally hesitate to do that unless I see a marauder. Basically, whatever midgame you want to transition into do so around 30 to 40 supply. | ||
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GomJabbar
United States161 Posts
Do you ever vary what units you make initially? For instance, changing the double stalker warp in to zealots if he's attacking with more marauders? Or warping in sentries instead? | ||
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AxUU
Finland162 Posts
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
What is the use for the early zealot if you don't intend to poke?? It has absolutely no scouting / anti-scouting use. It only means you get the nexus up later and your 2nd / 3rd gate up later. Idling the gateway first and getting stalker first into faster extra gates is better imo. You get your nexus up much faster and you'll have the same amount of units when warpgate finishes. Zealot first is spending money into a unit that you don't need untill they push anyway. Any threatening push has a marauder anyway and thus will come quite late, just delay that zealot and get your nexus and extra gateways faster instead, it's much better imo. The only times I like the zealot first is when the map is really small and there is some value in a zealot/stalker poke. At the moment that is only the case with xel naga and then I only do a zealot+stalker poke if they are not walling in. If they do wall in I go for a quick robo + immortal build to get some free depot kills on his walls (which I feel is worth delaying the expo a bit). | ||
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WrathOfAiur
Germany243 Posts
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
On November 18 2011 20:50 WrathOfAiur wrote: the zealot is useful against the 1 marine 2 marauder poke. and he said he wants to be kinda safe against everything, so that should be the answer you are looking for. that is rare these days and easy to scout. If terran opts for pressure it's 90% of the time a reactor first opening. If they open tech lab after rine you can easily adjust the build. On bigger maps you don't even really need to. In general it just doesn't make sense to get that zealot. If your mindset is to expand no matter what they do basically, then you should expand as fast as possible. Getting the nexus up faster works out much smoother imo because: - you can get it before the third pylon without getting some awkward supply block or probe cut, zealot first either delays the nexus till after the third pylon (thus 200 minerals later) or causes some supply block - faster nexus means the nexus finishes earlier, in fact just about the same time as warpgate finishes. This means you don't need that 4th pylon against pressure saving you 100 minerals. With a nexus just a bit later this timing can get awkward and you thus need to spend 100 on the 4th pylon. - faster nexus gives some extra energy which is useful when you need to chrono your gates against 2 rax pressure. Faster nexus also means it's finished faster meaning it has more hitpoints in the case of fast pressure. Ofcourse faster nexus has the disadvantage that your window for canceling it in case of some weird all-in is smaller but we probe scout for that anyway. | ||
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WrathOfAiur
Germany243 Posts
On November 18 2011 21:01 Markwerf wrote: that is rare these days and easy to scout. If terran opts for pressure it's 90% of the time a reactor first opening. If they open tech lab after rine you can easily adjust the build. you can't scout it. and even if you happen to scout it, you can't magically warp in the zealot afterwards, because your gate will be busy with producing the other units. the rest you said is totally irrelevant for the decision why you would want a zealot with this build (Although I don't disagree with you completely). the answer is simple. and I might add, that you can kill of ebays quicker if they decide to block your nexus. | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
On November 18 2011 21:21 WrathOfAiur wrote: you can't scout it. and even if you happen to scout it, you can't magically warp in the zealot afterwards, because your gate will be busy with producing the other units. the rest you said is totally irrelevant for the decision why you would want a zealot with this build (Although I don't disagree with you completely). the answer is simple. and I might add, that you can kill of ebays quicker if they decide to block your nexus. you can quee up the zealot and cancel it if they don't go techlab. And it's easy to scout.. you know where their first rax is and even if they have walled off you can see if they get tech lab after the marine or not. And the rest is relevant, zealot has a huge impact on the nexus timing because of the third pylon. A huk style FE gets the nexus about 40 seconds faster, which is a huge plus and it is just as safe against reactor first pressure since that comes around the time warpgate finishes anyway.. It is less safe against other stuff like tech lab first, or no gas marine all-in etc. but you should be able to scout for those in time with a 13-scout. The only 'use' of that first zealot is a zealot stalker poke imo but that tends to be quite useless these days, either the map is too big so poking with zealot takes too long or they tend to wall off. | ||
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WrathOfAiur
Germany243 Posts
On November 18 2011 21:35 Markwerf wrote: And it's easy to scout.. you know where their first rax is and even if they have walled off you can see if they get tech lab after the marine or not. ???????? how can you see that? if the marine is microed correctly you won't see anything. | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
On November 18 2011 21:44 WrathOfAiur wrote: ???????? how can you see that? if the marine is microed correctly you won't see anything. are you joking?? your probe is sitting next to the rax when the marine comes out? you know perfectly well if they get techlab or reactor... if they delay the techlab or cancel the reactor then you can't see but then their build is slowed down enough for it not to matter really. | ||
monk
United States8477 Posts
On November 18 2011 22:08 Markwerf wrote: are you joking?? your probe is sitting next to the rax when the marine comes out? you know perfectly well if they get techlab or reactor... if they delay the techlab or cancel the reactor then you can't see but then their build is slowed down enough for it not to matter really. This is completely unrealistic. You will lose your probe if you try to dely the addon by more than 2 seconds. | ||
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Schwopzi
Netherlands954 Posts
On November 18 2011 21:35 Markwerf wrote: you can quee up the zealot and cancel it if they don't go techlab. And it's easy to scout.. you know where their first rax is and even if they have walled off you can see if they get tech lab after the marine or not. And the rest is relevant, zealot has a huge impact on the nexus timing because of the third pylon. A huk style FE gets the nexus about 40 seconds faster, which is a huge plus and it is just as safe against reactor first pressure since that comes around the time warpgate finishes anyway.. It is less safe against other stuff like tech lab first, or no gas marine all-in etc. but you should be able to scout for those in time with a 13-scout. The only 'use' of that first zealot is a zealot stalker poke imo but that tends to be quite useless these days, either the map is too big so poking with zealot takes too long or they tend to wall off. Unless the map is really big (oh hello calm before the storm) a terran can do significant damage if no zealot is build, which is nigh guaranteed to be scouted by terran. Don't forget- not making that zealot leaves you weaker up to past your first warpin; and 1 zealot makes all the difference in the world against marauders. | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On November 18 2011 12:32 QTIP. wrote: At what point due you decide to get a Robo if you you don't see a 2nd rax go down, but know that they are collecting gas? In other words, at what point do you get the Robo when you don't know if 2-rax is going to hit you, or Cloaked banshee is going to hit you? I do try to get as much scouting info as I can. You don't see it in that replay because I knew he was going reactor 2-rax, but I'm active with my scouting probe after it's forced out by the marine. I'll move around below the ramp trying to get a marine count and to see if there's a marauder or a bunker, I hold a watch tower to see if there's an early push coming, and I'll move the watch tower probe up to his natural to see if he's expanding or leaving his base. Long story short, I try to get as much information as I can (including what would make sense from T given the map and positions), and then I play it by feel after 30 food. If I feel comfortable that T is going for a quick expansion, I might take a robo and a gas after my first 2 gates to rush colossi and upgrades. If I'm not sure at all what he's doing, I'll get the third gate and then the robo early enough to get an obs for cloaked banshees. I think you need to start the robo by like 6:30 at the latest to deal with cloak, and by that time, any normal bio push should have been seen by your scout probe at the tower or T's nat. Also, you can defend bio pushes with 2 gate robo, but you need to constantly produce units out of those gates, which people rarely do. | ||
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