EPTThe lower early infrastructure spending is an interesting point. Since my build can get by on 2 gates for a longer period of time, it does allow a quicker robo or forge. On the other hand, the Sase build allows pressure with 5 stalkers while I'll be in a more defensive posture with a sentry.
[G] A slightly improved PvT 1 gate FE - Page 8
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
The lower early infrastructure spending is an interesting point. Since my build can get by on 2 gates for a longer period of time, it does allow a quicker robo or forge. On the other hand, the Sase build allows pressure with 5 stalkers while I'll be in a more defensive posture with a sentry. | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
The nice thing about such a build is that the nexus actually finishes just before your warpgates from 5cb on warpgate would finish. So if you want you could actually cut probes at 21 and make 4 gates still to finish just in time, using the pop from the nexus to allow 4 units when cb finishes. It let's you be safe against almost any build really as long as you cut probes at the right time and make more gates earlier to adjust. If you scout they are NOT planning fast aggresive play, which can usually be seen by either a fast 2nd depot or a building command center you can proceed and not cut any probes at all, at which point this build is massively ahead of a zealot first 1 gate FE because it has the nexus 1 minute earlier. It is true though that such a build has more trouble dealing with super fast bunker pressure but that is only a option for terran if they spawn close enough really. For example 1 rax marine marauder pressure is really not a problem on a long spawn distance, you simply poke with your stalker as long as you can and then you simply clean up with your first wave of units warped in. What I usually do on a map like metalopolis for example is this: I scout from 13 gate to the closest possible spawn position. If they are there I tend to play a 1 gate FE with zealot - stalker - stalker but using minimal units on gas, if they are cross spawn i simply go for a sase like FE. I then poke with the probe a bit to see how fast i need to get my 2nd,3rd and 4th gate. If they pressure i get all these before 3rd pylon, if they don't pressure much i just go 3rd pylon -> 2nd gate, 3rd gate. Always use 5 cb on warpgate. Using all the cb on warpgate is not the most efficient use of warpgate in case you are not making many gates fast but it's ideal because you spend cb on getting units faster without actually having to spend money straight away. CBing probes or units has the problem that you also have to spend your money earlier causing you some idle buildings later on anyway. For that reason 2 CB on nexus is ideal here, by not CBing a 3rd time you get the 2nd nexus up faster and gain some extra safety by having warpgate 10s faster. | ||
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Fairwell
Austria195 Posts
On November 27 2011 15:34 kcdc wrote: The lower early infrastructure spending is an interesting point. Since my build can get by on 2 gates for a longer period of time, it does allow a quicker robo or forge. On the other hand, the Sase build allows pressure with 5 stalkers while I'll be in a more defensive posture with a sentry. Yep, that was exactly one of the points I realised when playing around with those builds. Depending on your followup both builds have different merits. On November 27 2011 21:59 Markwerf wrote: Fairwell, though I have never seen the Sase version I do a somewhat similar version but I mine even less gas at the beginning so I have around 60 gas when my cybercore finishes. That lets me make nexus before cyber finishes at 3:20, it's very hard for terran to block it at that timing as they will usually be entering your base around that time actually. That's indeed a very interesting point I've never thought of so far. Thanks for pointing this out. When do you get your probes in gas with this version and do you have 150gas for 3 more stalkers right the moment your warpgates finish with 5cb or do you get a zealot in there as well then? On November 27 2011 21:59 Markwerf wrote: The nice thing about such a build is that the nexus actually finishes just before your warpgates from 5cb on warpgate would finish. So if you want you could actually cut probes at 21 and make 4 gates still to finish just in time, using the pop from the nexus to allow 4 units when cb finishes. It let's you be safe against almost any build really as long as you cut probes at the right time and make more gates earlier to adjust. This could be very helpful if you expect someone pulling quite some scvs (some players have strong tendencies to do so :-)). Why is the probecut at 21 then instead of 22? You should get 10 additional supply from the nexus (2 more than from the 3rd pylon otherwise) but get one more unit out instead. I assume that you suggest cutting probes at 21 in this circumstance because you won't have the money for a full 4 unit warpin right away otherwise. On November 27 2011 21:59 Markwerf wrote: What I usually do on a map like metalopolis for example is this: I scout from 13 gate to the closest possible spawn position. If they are there I tend to play a 1 gate FE with zealot - stalker - stalker but using minimal units on gas, if they are cross spawn i simply go for a sase like FE. I then poke with the probe a bit to see how fast i need to get my 2nd,3rd and 4th gate. If they pressure i get all these before 3rd pylon, if they don't pressure much i just go 3rd pylon -> 2nd gate, 3rd gate. Always use 5 cb on warpgate. Using all the cb on warpgate is not the most efficient use of warpgate in case you are not making many gates fast but it's ideal because you spend cb on getting units faster without actually having to spend money straight away. CBing probes or units has the problem that you also have to spend your money earlier causing you some idle buildings later on anyway. For that reason 2 CB on nexus is ideal here, by not CBing a 3rd time you get the 2nd nexus up faster and gain some extra safety by having warpgate 10s faster. You have a good point about the cb usage, that's why I also like to only use 2 cb on my nexus early on nowadays, because normally you do some probe cut to get your nexus out super fast anyways (except for the kcdc version here) and why would I want to use a 3rd cb on my nexus a little bit beforehand then. Like mentioned above, I'd be really interested in when you mine your gas (to get your nexus down at 3:20min) and if you expect heavy aggression and get 3 more gates what your gas count is at warpin time. I assume you will have the gas to warp in 2 stalkers and the rest zealots at that point, since normally when I do the Sase-version I put the 3rd probe back into gas after I placed down my nexus and exactly have enough gas for 3 stalkers then. | ||
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Xanatoss
Germany539 Posts
On November 27 2011 21:59 Markwerf wrote: Using all the cb on warpgate is not the most efficient use of warpgate in case you are not making many gates fast but it's ideal because you spend cb on getting units faster without actually having to spend money straight away. CBing probes or units has the problem that you also have to spend your money earlier causing you some idle buildings later on anyway. For that reason 2 CB on nexus is ideal here, by not CBing a 3rd time you get the 2nd nexus up faster and gain some extra safety by having warpgate 10s faster. I want to highlight that thought again because its brilliant. I really disliked all these early 1 Gate Expands because the huge Probecuts felt illogical while attempting to do a very economical opening. On the other side boosting Warpgate for just a single Gate seems like utter garbage and boosting the first Gate itself appears to be a waste as soon as you consider the same effect on WG with more than one Gate upon completion. I wonder how much longer it would have taken me to combine all these points with my own thoughts finally into your Opening. As bonus it even feels very smooth and natural. 2nd Nexus lines up with WG perfectly and therefore decreases its opportunity costs immediately to 275. I love it and owe you one if we ever meet in person 8] | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On November 27 2011 21:59 Markwerf wrote: [Fast bunker pressure] is only a option for terran if they spawn close enough really. For example 1 rax marine marauder pressure is really not a problem on a long spawn distance, you simply poke with your stalker as long as you can and then you simply clean up with your first wave of units warped in. This isn't really true. T can have multiple bunkers finished by the time you can warp in units, and if you let him get to this point, you're screwed. You need to pull probes and fight his marauders+SCVs with probes+2 stalkers. You wind up losing more than T does. This pressure is the primary reason I moved away from these styles of FE's. | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
On November 28 2011 07:00 kcdc wrote: This isn't really true. T can have multiple bunkers finished by the time you can warp in units, and if you let him get to this point, you're screwed. You need to pull probes and fight his marauders+SCVs with probes+2 stalkers. You wind up losing more than T does. This pressure is the primary reason I moved away from these styles of FE's. On a very large map they won't have any backup units early for their SCV's to build the bunker so you can just pull a roughly equal number of probes and use your stalker. Also if they finish the bunker and you can make sure you can intercept any units going towards it a bunker is not that bad, you can simply wait 1 more round and then kill the bunker, like zergs do with lings in ZvT. Still I agree completely that the trouble you go through on some maps to stop this is not worth it and you might as well be better off with a slightly later FE with some more units. There are tons of small variations you can make for the smaller maps, for example on a small 2 player map like XNC I like to not scout at all and simply go with a zealot stalker push. Not scouting saves around 60 minerals I think and lets you do a fairly fast expo still while getting the information you need from a zealot push. There is also an option of not scouting and boosting out 2 zealots while the cybercore is making so you can go for a 2 zealot + 1 stalker push which can do decent damage many times or at least tell you what's up otherwise. Finally on maps with a choke to the natural there are valid points to make towards doing the build you described because an early sentry is so useful on those maps, on shakuras especially I like the build because 1 full energy sentry is enough to stop or stall any midgame aggresion so you can do a very greedy tech to colo to followup. A very quick 2 ranged colo push is so damn strong on shakuras that I usually prefer that route. Either way I think you can handle most forms of aggresion with the various FE builds but they simply differ in the amount of damage you take. Huk/Sase style FE's take more damage against really fast aggresion (marine-> marauder) but also do much better against gasless expo's. Hereby named kcdc version is very solid when the map has a second ramp and is a little smaller (or features risk of proxies). | ||
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zmansman17
United States2567 Posts
On November 28 2011 07:00 kcdc wrote: This isn't really true. T can have multiple bunkers finished by the time you can warp in units, and if you let him get to this point, you're screwed. You need to pull probes and fight his marauders+SCVs with probes+2 stalkers. You wind up losing more than T does. This pressure is the primary reason I moved away from these styles of FE's. I find that reaper FE is the best build against Toss at this point. Especially if I early scout and see Nexus first or 1 gate FE, reapers ensure some early damage and map control. I love the build because I get an early FE, gas for stim, map control and can micro against zealots all day. On certain maps, like Antigua shipyard, for example, the small corridor on the side of each presents a perfect backdoor to enter 3 reapers and 1 shot probes when their 1st or 2nd stalker is either at their natural (where you initially killed their zealot) or at the tower. The goal is not to be greedy and only grab a few probe kills before going back down and keeping the constant threat at the Protoss door. Meanwhile as Terran I can choose to be super greedy or just greedy. I find that against Toss, I must be relatively greedy overall. Against a top master player recently, I dropped a 3rd while using reapers for constant harass. I then bunkered the intersection of these bases, created the infrastructure that was commensurate with my income and bam, I'm so far ahead. By the time his observer arrived and spotted my 3rd, it was way too late and I had several bunkers and tons of production. I think if Toss is going to Nexus first or 1 Gate FE s/he must use early chronos for units and not be greedy with probes. Even if that means a slight reprieve from probe production. Furthermore, I think Toss needs to pressure the Terran at 6:30 with at least 1 stalker (using 1 to defend). Otherwise the reaper map control grants Terran a lot of leeway in the MU (my mmr= top master gm). | ||
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TylerThaCreator
United States906 Posts
vs a 2 rax with reactor/techlab with concussive (so 2 marauders, around 6 marines, and 4 scvs) is going 2 gate robo viable? Or does it always have to be extra gates? I pulled about 10 probes vs this and got absolutely crushed. http://drop.sc/67731 Cross positions shattered, I went for 3 chrono on nexus. Would saving a chrono for wg be of any use? | ||
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Xanatoss
Germany539 Posts
On December 04 2011 03:20 TylerThaCreator wrote: Quick question, had to skip ahead from page 6 so I'm unsure if this was answered but vs a 2 rax with reactor/techlab with concussive (so 2 marauders, around 6 marines, and 4 scvs) is going 2 gate robo viable? Or does it always have to be extra gates? I pulled about 10 probes vs this and got absolutely crushed. http://drop.sc/67731 Cross positions shattered, I went for 3 chrono on nexus. Would saving a chrono for wg be of any use? Why do you not follow the BO? Chronoboost on Stalker is waste because of no following production. Expand on 27 (send Probe @ 300 Minerals so you dont miss the expand timing) while cuting 1 probe, then Gate, then Sentry and more Probes. By exactly following the BO you could have had almost another couple of Units at each point after Warpgate. In addition warp in 2 Stalkers instead of 2 Zealots and use Guardian Shield. 2 Zealots under Guardian Shield against Stimless-MM lasts quite long while the stalkers provide the DPS necessary to kill the push even if they kite. 2 additional Zealots on the other side just extends your suffering against concussive. If T brings SCVs to build bunkers either snipe them with your stalkers before engaging or use your pulled probes to focus them down while your Army deals with his. Working SCVs dont fight back. This build hardcounters the crap out of 2 Rax so the 3rd production structure is mostly up to preference. | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On December 04 2011 03:20 TylerThaCreator wrote: Quick question, had to skip ahead from page 6 so I'm unsure if this was answered but vs a 2 rax with reactor/techlab with concussive (so 2 marauders, around 6 marines, and 4 scvs) is going 2 gate robo viable? Or does it always have to be extra gates? I pulled about 10 probes vs this and got absolutely crushed. http://drop.sc/67731 Cross positions shattered, I went for 3 chrono on nexus. Would saving a chrono for wg be of any use? I do 3 chrono on probes at start. 2 chrono is about as good, but I do 3. I might change the guide, but I need to do a controlled test of the difference. Things like how close the mineral patches are on each map changes the outcome. And yes, 2 gate robo works vs that push. You were closer to defending that push than you probably felt like you were. The key was that you were up on your ramp finishing warping in your 5th and 6th units at 6:30 when you should have them down the ramp by 6:15 at the latest. You can make up most of that difference by spending one more chrono on WG tech (you had one unused), starting your 2nd gate a little earlier, and warping in below your ramp if possible. Place your warp-in pylon on the ledge in your main so that it powers the low-ground but can't be sniped. And if you're going to pull probes, lead with a zealot, not with the probes. But you shouldn't usually have to pull probes against that push, although if T brings 4 SCVs, I guess you might want to pull a few workers yourself. | ||
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TylerThaCreator
United States906 Posts
edit: I tend to chrono out stalker because I want to be able to kill the scouting SCV ASAP. | ||
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Fairwell
Austria195 Posts
On December 04 2011 05:45 TylerThaCreator wrote: edit: I tend to chrono out stalker because I want to be able to kill the scouting SCV ASAP. That is helpful if you want to tech, apply some early pressure (zealot+stalker poke) or do a mc-style-1gate-fe. Otherwise I don't really see the point in doing it. Especially in the 1gate-fe described in the op you are going to cut unit production after your stalker for a bit anyways and you will be missing this cb a little bit later. A terran that sees such a late gas and amount of cb saved up will think of a 1gate fe or 4gate and check if you expand. There really isn't anything you crucial information you can hide in those 10sec in your base. | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On December 04 2011 05:45 TylerThaCreator wrote: Ty for the help guys edit: I tend to chrono out stalker because I want to be able to kill the scouting SCV ASAP. Also, use guardian shield instead of forcefield. +2 armor might not seem like much, but it makes your army almost twice as strong against that push. | ||
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OxyFuel
Canada195 Posts
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opisska
Poland8852 Posts
I am a platinum player. I can lose 6 minute games using this build all day long, what do I learn from that? (Not to mention that it is not particularly amusing.) I have basically never in my life beaten a marauder heavy early attack without an immortal or two. At high level, when you can expect good micro form both sides, this build is excellent. At lwo level, where microing gateway units is orders of magnitude more difficult than m&m, this is just a very stupid way of playing. But we won't ever get a guide what to do, will we? (Apart of "get better with you micro".) | ||
Teoita
Italy12248 Posts
On December 04 2011 22:04 opisska wrote: I think that guides like this are the best example, how the TL "top level only" atitude is detrimental to helping any lower level players. I am a platinum player. I can lose 6 minute games using this build all day long, what do I learn from that? (Not to mention that it is not particularly amusing.) I have basically never in my life beaten a marauder heavy early attack without an immortal or two. At high level, when you can expect good micro form both sides, this build is excellent. At lwo level, where microing gateway units is orders of magnitude more difficult than m&m, this is just a very stupid way of playing. But we won't ever get a guide what to do, will we? (Apart of "get better with you micro".) I don't understand your point. None is telling you to always 1gate fe or whatever; you can always open 2gate robo and/or 3gate expand and play super safe if you want to not die to early game pressure. If you do want to improve as a player and get in higher leagues however (which is the target audience for tl guides), eventually you will have to get comfortable in 1gate expanding in a lot of pvt situations; this guide is a good way to start doing it. If you don't want to lose ladder games, just grab a practice partner and practice... | ||
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iAmJeffReY
United States4262 Posts
On December 04 2011 22:04 opisska wrote: I think that guides like this are the best example, how the TL "top level only" atitude is detrimental to helping any lower level players. I am a platinum player. I can lose 6 minute games using this build all day long, what do I learn from that? (Not to mention that it is not particularly amusing.) I have basically never in my life beaten a marauder heavy early attack without an immortal or two. At high level, when you can expect good micro form both sides, this build is excellent. At lwo level, where microing gateway units is orders of magnitude more difficult than m&m, this is just a very stupid way of playing. But we won't ever get a guide what to do, will we? (Apart of "get better with you micro".) Then you know your issues, and you continue running the build working on that ever so difficult protoss micro early game. Scout better. Place probes outside his base so you can see him coming. Pull drones. 2 nexus vs 1 OC you can afford to lose practically all your probe at your natural, and still be safe. If I'm not mistaken, does this guide not advocate an early robo after the expo? What's the issue? | ||
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Complete
United States1864 Posts
 scv/marine allins are very hard to deal with going zealot,stalker,sentry | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On December 04 2011 23:40 Complete wrote: Mmm, I stopped doing this build scv/marine allins are very hard to deal with going zealot,stalker,sentry They're hard to defend with any FE. You pretty much have to see them coming, but at least this build has a shot to get the sentry in time to delay them for 15 seconds which lets you get WG before you're completely dead. On December 04 2011 22:04 opisska wrote: I think that guides like this are the best example, how the TL "top level only" atitude is detrimental to helping any lower level players. I am a platinum player. I can lose 6 minute games using this build all day long, what do I learn from that? (Not to mention that it is not particularly amusing.) I have basically never in my life beaten a marauder heavy early attack without an immortal or two. At high level, when you can expect good micro form both sides, this build is excellent. At lwo level, where microing gateway units is orders of magnitude more difficult than m&m, this is just a very stupid way of playing. But we won't ever get a guide what to do, will we? (Apart of "get better with you micro".) You don't have to do the build. But if you want to improve, why don't you just grab a partner and practice against whatever you're having problems with. The micro really isn't hard at all unless T has bunkers in your way, and if you follow my advice about pulling probes for a 2-marauder push with SCVs, T shouldn't ever get bunkers between your army and his. All you have to do is A-move and pull back your stalkers when your zealots are about to die. | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
On December 04 2011 22:04 opisska wrote: I think that guides like this are the best example, how the TL "top level only" atitude is detrimental to helping any lower level players. I am a platinum player. I can lose 6 minute games using this build all day long, what do I learn from that? (Not to mention that it is not particularly amusing.) I have basically never in my life beaten a marauder heavy early attack without an immortal or two. At high level, when you can expect good micro form both sides, this build is excellent. At lwo level, where microing gateway units is orders of magnitude more difficult than m&m, this is just a very stupid way of playing. But we won't ever get a guide what to do, will we? (Apart of "get better with you micro".) Look for builds like 3 gate expand or 2 gate robo in PvT. I know for sure that there is a guide for 2 gate robo, but there is probably one for 3 gate expand as well. | ||
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