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On November 18 2011 21:01 Markwerf wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2011 20:50 WrathOfAiur wrote:
the zealot is useful against the 1 marine 2 marauder poke. and he said he wants to be kinda safe against everything, so that should be the answer you are looking for. that is rare these days and easy to scout. If terran opts for pressure it's 90% of the time a reactor first opening. If they open tech lab after rine you can easily adjust the build. On bigger maps you don't even really need to. In general it just doesn't make sense to get that zealot. If your mindset is to expand no matter what they do basically, then you should expand as fast as possible. Getting the nexus up faster works out much smoother imo because: - you can get it before the third pylon without getting some awkward supply block or probe cut, zealot first either delays the nexus till after the third pylon (thus 200 minerals later) or causes some supply block - faster nexus means the nexus finishes earlier, in fact just about the same time as warpgate finishes. This means you don't need that 4th pylon against pressure saving you 100 minerals. With a nexus just a bit later this timing can get awkward and you thus need to spend 100 on the 4th pylon. - faster nexus gives some extra energy which is useful when you need to chrono your gates against 2 rax pressure. Faster nexus also means it's finished faster meaning it has more hitpoints in the case of fast pressure. Ofcourse faster nexus has the disadvantage that your window for canceling it in case of some weird all-in is smaller but we probe scout for that anyway.
Others have said this already, but to reiterate, if you don't get the zealot, you can die to marauder pressure pretty easily, and you'll get delayed substantially by an ebay block. And no, you can't scout marauder pressure before it's too late. T just has to chase your scout probe out and then park his marine at the bottom of the ramp and you'll never see the tech lab.
The 20 and 22 food expansions are safe-ish, but require a ton of probe cutting, so the earlier nexus isn't as economical as it seems.
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On November 18 2011 23:41 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2011 12:32 QTIP. wrote:
At what point due you decide to get a Robo if you you don't see a 2nd rax go down, but know that they are collecting gas?
In other words, at what point do you get the Robo when you don't know if 2-rax is going to hit you, or Cloaked banshee is going to hit you? I do try to get as much scouting info as I can. You don't see it in that replay because I knew he was going reactor 2-rax, but I'm active with my scouting probe after it's forced out by the marine. I'll move around below the ramp trying to get a marine count and to see if there's a marauder or a bunker, I hold a watch tower to see if there's an early push coming, and I'll move the watch tower probe up to his natural to see if he's expanding or leaving his base. Long story short, I try to get as much information as I can (including what would make sense from T given the map and positions), and then I play it by feel after 30 food. If I feel comfortable that T is going for a quick expansion, I might take a robo and a gas after my first 2 gates to rush colossi and upgrades. If I'm not sure at all what he's doing, I'll get the third gate and then the robo early enough to get an obs for cloaked banshees. I think you need to start the robo by like 6:30 at the latest to deal with cloak, and by that time, any normal bio push should have been seen by your scout probe at the tower or T's nat. Also, you can defend bio pushes with 2 gate robo, but you need to constantly produce units out of those gates, which people rarely do.
robo needs to be started by 5:55 with obs started instantly with 1 chrono to get it out by 7:30 (normal cloak bancheese time).
The issue with 1g nexus 2g robo is you can't constantly produce out of the 2 gateways unless you cut probes. You can if you don't have to build the robo and observer (saves you 225 minerals 175 gas) but it's difficult to say they aren't going cloak if they delay their 2rax push a little.
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United States2113 Posts
On November 18 2011 23:41 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2011 12:32 QTIP. wrote:
At what point due you decide to get a Robo if you you don't see a 2nd rax go down, but know that they are collecting gas?
In other words, at what point do you get the Robo when you don't know if 2-rax is going to hit you, or Cloaked banshee is going to hit you? I do try to get as much scouting info as I can. You don't see it in that replay because I knew he was going reactor 2-rax, but I'm active with my scouting probe after it's forced out by the marine. I'll move around below the ramp trying to get a marine count and to see if there's a marauder or a bunker, I hold a watch tower to see if there's an early push coming, and I'll move the watch tower probe up to his natural to see if he's expanding or leaving his base. Long story short, I try to get as much information as I can (including what would make sense from T given the map and positions), and then I play it by feel after 30 food. If I feel comfortable that T is going for a quick expansion, I might take a robo and a gas after my first 2 gates to rush colossi and upgrades. If I'm not sure at all what he's doing, I'll get the third gate and then the robo early enough to get an obs for cloaked banshees. I think you need to start the robo by like 6:30 at the latest to deal with cloak, and by that time, any normal bio push should have been seen by your scout probe at the tower or T's nat. Also, you can defend bio pushes with 2 gate robo, but you need to constantly produce units out of those gates, which people rarely do.
Yeah, I knew from your replay that you wouldn't have to worry about cloaked banshee unless PokeBunny went super tricky and cancelled the 2nd rax.
Though I'm not quite good enough to play PokeBunny, many Terrans I play will wall off with 3 Supply depots (with a bunker behind), or 2 Depots with a bunker. Marauders are kept in the back and the Marines in the bunker give the illusion of a tech-based build. However, they simply salvage the bunker move out with a 2-rax timing and can punish 1 Gate FE's that add a Robo too quickly.
Of course, others will have that bunker because they are actually teching to Banshee, and producing an early Robo would be the correct choice.
It turns into a guessing game here, and I suppose there is no guaranteed way to make the correct choice, but instead you must play the probabilities based on persistent scouting.
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On November 18 2011 22:11 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2011 22:08 Markwerf wrote:On November 18 2011 21:44 WrathOfAiur wrote:On November 18 2011 21:35 Markwerf wrote:
And it's easy to scout.. you know where their first rax is and even if they have walled off you can see if they get tech lab after the marine or not.
???????? how can you see that? if the marine is microed correctly you won't see anything. are you joking?? your probe is sitting next to the rax when the marine comes out? you know perfectly well if they get techlab or reactor... if they delay the techlab or cancel the reactor then you can't see but then their build is slowed down enough for it not to matter really. This is completely unrealistic. You will lose your probe if you try to dely the addon by more than 2 seconds.
Can you build a pylon to block the addon and cancel it once you do/don't see them lift their rax?
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I hope that nobody argues that you popularized the 1 gate FE.
Have you tried the nexus first? I'm doing that on larger maps now and 3 gate expand on smaller ones. I want to try that 2 gas 1 gate expand on smaller maps because I think the major factor is sentries. How do you feel about this?
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On November 19 2011 01:17 Fuhrmaaj wrote:
I hope that nobody argues that you popularized the 1 gate FE.
Have you tried the nexus first? I'm doing that on larger maps now and 3 gate expand on smaller ones. I want to try that 2 gas 1 gate expand on smaller maps because I think the major factor is sentries. How do you feel about this?
This seems really counterintuitive, on smaller maps where earlier pressure is stronger, the sentries are going to be less useful in earlier engagements. Two gas expand allows for a stronger midgame army with a good sentry count, but a 1 gas expand can deal much better with something like a 2 rax aggression or a marauder conc shell rush.
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On November 19 2011 00:43 QTIP. wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2011 23:41 kcdc wrote:On November 18 2011 12:32 QTIP. wrote:
At what point due you decide to get a Robo if you you don't see a 2nd rax go down, but know that they are collecting gas?
In other words, at what point do you get the Robo when you don't know if 2-rax is going to hit you, or Cloaked banshee is going to hit you? I do try to get as much scouting info as I can. You don't see it in that replay because I knew he was going reactor 2-rax, but I'm active with my scouting probe after it's forced out by the marine. I'll move around below the ramp trying to get a marine count and to see if there's a marauder or a bunker, I hold a watch tower to see if there's an early push coming, and I'll move the watch tower probe up to his natural to see if he's expanding or leaving his base. Long story short, I try to get as much information as I can (including what would make sense from T given the map and positions), and then I play it by feel after 30 food. If I feel comfortable that T is going for a quick expansion, I might take a robo and a gas after my first 2 gates to rush colossi and upgrades. If I'm not sure at all what he's doing, I'll get the third gate and then the robo early enough to get an obs for cloaked banshees. I think you need to start the robo by like 6:30 at the latest to deal with cloak, and by that time, any normal bio push should have been seen by your scout probe at the tower or T's nat. Also, you can defend bio pushes with 2 gate robo, but you need to constantly produce units out of those gates, which people rarely do. Yeah, I knew from your replay that you wouldn't have to worry about cloaked banshee unless PokeBunny went super tricky and cancelled the 2nd rax. Though I'm not quite good enough to play PokeBunny, many Terrans I play will wall off with 3 Supply depots (with a bunker behind), or 2 Depots with a bunker. Marauders are kept in the back and the Marines in the bunker give the illusion of a tech-based build. However, they simply salvage the bunker move out with a 2-rax timing and can punish 1 Gate FE's that add a Robo too quickly. Of course, others will have that bunker because they are actually teching to Banshee, and producing an early Robo would be the correct choice. It turns into a guessing game here, and I suppose there is no guaranteed way to make the correct choice, but instead you must play the probabilities based on persistent scouting.
When does 2-rax leave T's base? 5:30ish? These are things I should probably know, but like I said, I really play this MU by feel after my opening which probably isn't for the best.
Anyway, if it's 5:30, then you can sac a probe up T's ramp at 5:40, and if there's no push coming, you can reactively take an early robo.
I remember losing once to a Terran that took no gas for my scout probe, bunkered his natural to fake no-gas expand, and then proxied 2-port cloaked banshees, so there are ways to metagame anything P can do, but this opening seems to work well against the normal stuff.
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On November 18 2011 23:47 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2011 21:01 Markwerf wrote:On November 18 2011 20:50 WrathOfAiur wrote:
the zealot is useful against the 1 marine 2 marauder poke. and he said he wants to be kinda safe against everything, so that should be the answer you are looking for. that is rare these days and easy to scout. If terran opts for pressure it's 90% of the time a reactor first opening. If they open tech lab after rine you can easily adjust the build. On bigger maps you don't even really need to. In general it just doesn't make sense to get that zealot. If your mindset is to expand no matter what they do basically, then you should expand as fast as possible. Getting the nexus up faster works out much smoother imo because: - you can get it before the third pylon without getting some awkward supply block or probe cut, zealot first either delays the nexus till after the third pylon (thus 200 minerals later) or causes some supply block - faster nexus means the nexus finishes earlier, in fact just about the same time as warpgate finishes. This means you don't need that 4th pylon against pressure saving you 100 minerals. With a nexus just a bit later this timing can get awkward and you thus need to spend 100 on the 4th pylon. - faster nexus gives some extra energy which is useful when you need to chrono your gates against 2 rax pressure. Faster nexus also means it's finished faster meaning it has more hitpoints in the case of fast pressure. Ofcourse faster nexus has the disadvantage that your window for canceling it in case of some weird all-in is smaller but we probe scout for that anyway. Others have said this already, but to reiterate, if you don't get the zealot, you can die to marauder pressure pretty easily, and you'll get delayed substantially by an ebay block. And no, you can't scout marauder pressure before it's too late. T just has to chase your scout probe out and then park his marine at the bottom of the ramp and you'll never see the tech lab. The 20 and 22 food expansions are safe-ish, but require a ton of probe cutting, so the earlier nexus isn't as economical as it seems.
An ebay block is rare and not really a problem. You simply quee the zealot and if they block you can let the zealot finish. Not many terran builds can easily ebay block though so it will happen in very few cases, especially as queeing up a zealot won't really give them a clue that your about to expand that fast.
1 rax techlab first marauder pressure is not too much of a problem imo in the current map pool, just try to prevent an early bunker from getting up and kill the pressure with your first warp in round. Ofcourse 20 nexus expanding is not so great on maps like xel naga or close air metalopolis but any other map i vastly prefer it over zealot first into nexus.
It simply makes more sense to get nexus and 2nd+3rd gateway faster, by the time most pushes come you'll have exactly the same amount of units but your nexus was up much faster. Except proxies I don't see how terran can break 20 nexus on most of the current map pool.
On the smaller maps zealot first into potential poking is fine but I'd rather play quick robo then.
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United States2113 Posts
On November 19 2011 02:19 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2011 00:43 QTIP. wrote:On November 18 2011 23:41 kcdc wrote:On November 18 2011 12:32 QTIP. wrote:
At what point due you decide to get a Robo if you you don't see a 2nd rax go down, but know that they are collecting gas?
In other words, at what point do you get the Robo when you don't know if 2-rax is going to hit you, or Cloaked banshee is going to hit you? I do try to get as much scouting info as I can. You don't see it in that replay because I knew he was going reactor 2-rax, but I'm active with my scouting probe after it's forced out by the marine. I'll move around below the ramp trying to get a marine count and to see if there's a marauder or a bunker, I hold a watch tower to see if there's an early push coming, and I'll move the watch tower probe up to his natural to see if he's expanding or leaving his base. Long story short, I try to get as much information as I can (including what would make sense from T given the map and positions), and then I play it by feel after 30 food. If I feel comfortable that T is going for a quick expansion, I might take a robo and a gas after my first 2 gates to rush colossi and upgrades. If I'm not sure at all what he's doing, I'll get the third gate and then the robo early enough to get an obs for cloaked banshees. I think you need to start the robo by like 6:30 at the latest to deal with cloak, and by that time, any normal bio push should have been seen by your scout probe at the tower or T's nat. Also, you can defend bio pushes with 2 gate robo, but you need to constantly produce units out of those gates, which people rarely do. Yeah, I knew from your replay that you wouldn't have to worry about cloaked banshee unless PokeBunny went super tricky and cancelled the 2nd rax. Though I'm not quite good enough to play PokeBunny, many Terrans I play will wall off with 3 Supply depots (with a bunker behind), or 2 Depots with a bunker. Marauders are kept in the back and the Marines in the bunker give the illusion of a tech-based build. However, they simply salvage the bunker move out with a 2-rax timing and can punish 1 Gate FE's that add a Robo too quickly. Of course, others will have that bunker because they are actually teching to Banshee, and producing an early Robo would be the correct choice. It turns into a guessing game here, and I suppose there is no guaranteed way to make the correct choice, but instead you must play the probabilities based on persistent scouting. When does 2-rax leave T's base? 5:30ish? These are things I should probably know, but like I said, I really play this MU by feel after my opening which probably isn't for the best. Anyway, if it's 5:30, then you can sac a probe up T's ramp at 5:40, and if there's no push coming, you can reactively take an early robo. I remember losing once to a Terran that took no gas for my scout probe, bunkered his natural to fake no-gas expand, and then proxied 2-port cloaked banshees, so there are ways to metagame anything P can do, but this opening seems to work well against the normal stuff.
Yeah - that's what I figured. I have no problem playing the probabilities, I'm just looking for any edge I can get.
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On November 19 2011 02:19 kcdc wrote:
I remember losing once to a Terran that took no gas for my scout probe, bunkered his natural to fake no-gas expand, and then proxied 2-port cloaked banshees, so there are ways to metagame anything P can do, but this opening seems to work well against the normal stuff.
On the last day of the groupstages in NASL2 TLO did this vs TT1 in game3 on Antiga Shipyard. Things like these can always happen, but it's kinda rare. However, no matter which 1gate fe version you choose, this issue remains.
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On November 19 2011 03:48 Fairwell wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2011 02:19 kcdc wrote:
I remember losing once to a Terran that took no gas for my scout probe, bunkered his natural to fake no-gas expand, and then proxied 2-port cloaked banshees, so there are ways to metagame anything P can do, but this opening seems to work well against the normal stuff. On the last day of the groupstages in NASL2 TLO did this vs TT1 in game3 on Antiga Shipyard. Things like these can always happen, but it's kinda rare. However, no matter which 1gate fe version you choose, this issue remains.
Yeah, I think I delayed robo that game for double upgrades or something. If a build is 100% safe against every possible opening (2-gate robo with fast obs before expansion), it's probably not greedy enough to keep up into mid-game.
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kcdc,
Thanks for sharing with this build it's awesome  appart from one situation: Marine rush.
I am in a Bronze league. I've played recently against a Terran who pushed at 5th minute. He learned his BO very well executing it in every game. I looked at his Match History and every game he won the game did not last more than 6 min. I am sure he repeates this in every match.
Basically, the thing is he comes with 7 marines. At about 5:15 he's at natural when position is close on big maps. Others Marines (usually three due to 3 rax) are on the way. At that time we can have only 1Z 1St 1S exewcuting this build. I don't think it can be held with this build or any other if C.C is after GW. What do you think?
Thanks
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I just tested this in the unit trainer, I can win that battle while only losing my zealot, or zealot and sentry, and I don't have to do any stutter step for it either. If you keep the stalker alive, you can then do stutter step micro and whittle down their marines without taking damage, just make sure to keep your stalker alive and you'll be fine. Your reinforcements will help more than his will, 3 stalkers with some micro can really put the hurt on marines not inside a bunker. And you don't mind if your exp nexus take a few hits, its got like 1500hp or something....
On November 19 2011 04:37 ZikO wrote:kcdc, Thanks for sharing with this build it's awesome appart from one situation: Marine rush. I am in a Bronze league. I've played recently against a Terran who pushed at 5th minute. He learned his BO very well executing it in every game. I looked at his Match History and every game he won the game did not last more than 6 min. I am sure he repeates this in every match. Basically, the thing is he comes with 7 marines. At about 5:15 he's at natural when position is close on big maps. Others Marines (usually three due to 3 rax) are on the way. At that time we can have only 1Z 1St 1S exewcuting this build. I don't think it can be held with this build or any other if C.C is after GW. What do you think? Thanks
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Thanks a lot kcdc, this has changed my whole matchup now!! The only thing I think I'm really going to have to keep in mind is a robo bay at 5:30 for banshees if I don't see marauders - I wish SC2 showed a time in game!
Thanks again!
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On November 19 2011 04:37 ZikO wrote:kcdc, Thanks for sharing with this build it's awesome appart from one situation: Marine rush. I am in a Bronze league. I've played recently against a Terran who pushed at 5th minute. He learned his BO very well executing it in every game. I looked at his Match History and every game he won the game did not last more than 6 min. I am sure he repeates this in every match. Basically, the thing is he comes with 7 marines. At about 5:15 he's at natural when position is close on big maps. Others Marines (usually three due to 3 rax) are on the way. At that time we can have only 1Z 1St 1S exewcuting this build. I don't think it can be held with this build or any other if C.C is after GW. What do you think? Thanks
There's a high master/GM Terran with ID Matty that does a marine+SCV timing (I'd call it an all-in, but he leaves a MULE) quite often. My advice is pretty simple: don't expand against cheese.
If T goes for a fast 2-rax without gas, you need to respond.
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On November 19 2011 05:13 matrius wrote:
Thanks a lot kcdc, this has changed my whole matchup now!! The only thing I think I'm really going to have to keep in mind is a robo bay at 5:30 for banshees if I don't see marauders - I wish SC2 showed a time in game!
Thanks again!
And do I ever have a treat for you: I've enabled an in-game clock that you can toggle on in your SC2 menu options! Other players may get jealous, so don't tell!
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On November 19 2011 05:20 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2011 05:13 matrius wrote:
Thanks a lot kcdc, this has changed my whole matchup now!! The only thing I think I'm really going to have to keep in mind is a robo bay at 5:30 for banshees if I don't see marauders - I wish SC2 showed a time in game!
Thanks again! And do I ever have a treat for you: I've enabled an in-game clock that you can toggle on in your SC2 menu options! Other players may get jealous, so don't tell!
wtf, they have that?
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On November 19 2011 05:17 kcdc wrote:
There's a high master/GM Terran with ID Matty that does a marine+SCV timing (I'd call it an all-in, but he leaves a MULE) quite often. My advice is pretty simple: don't expand against cheese.
If T goes for a fast 2-rax without gas, you need to respond.
how are you scouting that cheese? with a 1 gate expo build.
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On November 19 2011 05:23 CaptainHaz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2011 05:20 kcdc wrote:On November 19 2011 05:13 matrius wrote:
Thanks a lot kcdc, this has changed my whole matchup now!! The only thing I think I'm really going to have to keep in mind is a robo bay at 5:30 for banshees if I don't see marauders - I wish SC2 showed a time in game!
Thanks again! And do I ever have a treat for you: I've enabled an in-game clock that you can toggle on in your SC2 menu options! Other players may get jealous, so don't tell! wtf, they have that?
Blizzard patched this option into the game several months ago already, I'm quite surprised people still don't know this.
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just how do you get the nexus down to 4:25!? ive been following the build exactly up to that point but i always seem to get my nexus between 4:30 and 4:35 (2 chrono on nexus) but in your replay it goes down at 4:25, the only thing i can think of is maybe the probe split and keeping probes on close patches, but i dont see anything else that would make a difference, just how much of a difference does that close patch mining mineral trick make
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EPT
