EPT[G] A slightly improved PvT 1 gate FE - Page 7
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Welmu
Finland3295 Posts
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unit
United States2621 Posts
On November 23 2011 03:49 Welmu wrote: Hmmm, I dont realize why this would be better than 1g expand --> 3gates. You will only get 2gates with this and you will have to add more gates pretty soon anyways. Also 3gates allows you to be more reactive to what Terran does. I usually do expand at 27 supply too when I transition to 3gates so it won't help me to get it earlier. you are completely free to add more gates as you wish, personally i just go double forge w/it and go up to 8gates w/ chargelot archon 2/2 push...trying to work a robo in there though TT | ||
monk
United States8476 Posts
On November 23 2011 03:49 Welmu wrote: Hmmm, I dont realize why this would be better than 1g expand --> 3gates. You will only get 2gates with this and you will have to add more gates pretty soon anyways. Also 3gates allows you to be more reactive to what Terran does. I usually do expand at 27 supply too when I transition to 3gates so it won't help me to get it earlier. He gets 3 gates, just staggers the 2nd and 3rd gates a bit. | ||
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Welmu
Finland3295 Posts
On November 23 2011 04:28 NrGmonk wrote: He gets 3 gates, just staggers the 2nd and 3rd gates a bit. Ah okey, I didn't find anything about 3rd gateway in OP >_< | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On November 23 2011 03:46 unit wrote: just how do you get the nexus down to 4:25!? ive been following the build exactly up to that point but i always seem to get my nexus between 4:30 and 4:35 (2 chrono on nexus) but in your replay it goes down at 4:25, the only thing i can think of is maybe the probe split and keeping probes on close patches, but i dont see anything else that would make a difference, just how much of a difference does that close patch mining mineral trick make The trick is that I'm a badass. Mmmmmm, no, that's not it. It's probe micro. XNC is the fastest map to mine on too. | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On November 23 2011 03:49 Welmu wrote: Hmmm, I dont realize why this would be better than 1g expand --> 3gates. You will only get 2gates with this and you will have to add more gates pretty soon anyways. Also 3gates allows you to be more reactive to what Terran does. I usually do expand at 27 supply too when I transition to 3gates so it won't help me to get it earlier. My idea with this opening is to optimize unit/building production to get as many units as possible at standard bio timings with maximum economy (faster nexus, more probes). Getting an early sentry also gives you more energy accumulation. If you go zealot-stalker-nexus-stalker, you have less 75 minerals for probes/gateways than zealot-stalker-nexus-sentry, and the stalker's longer build time means you'll need to use more chronoboost to get a fourth unit done before WG tech finishes. You'll need to cut a probe to get your 2nd gate finished by 6 minutes, and you'll need to cut more probes if you want 3 gates finished near that timing. | ||
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MoreSore
Ireland73 Posts
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Fairwell
Austria195 Posts
Keep in mind that if you scout out a gasless fe opening you can adjust and just chrono out your probes more with this version as well instead of using it on the sentry and zealot for example. So afterall you will be behind about 2-3 probes in that case. If you do the huk-fe and pull 1 probe out of gas and doing it on 19 supply (what Sase seems to be constantly doing on his stream), you can get your nexus down like 20sec earlier and get more ahead. Or you could even do the whitera version of delaying your cyber core once you spot gasless fe and get your nexus down faster. Your warpgate tech is going to be delayed, something your opponent will also be scouting. So the results so far from my testing: - Go for the opening kcdc describes here, it's really good. - If you scout gasless fe, quickly transition into a more greedy version (huk version; but only cut probes at 19/20 depending on version). - If you scout 1rax marauder conc expand go for the mc 1gate fe (basically zealot-stalker-stalker and expand at 31 supply). - If you scout your opponent too late (bigger 4 player map for example) just go for this 1gate fe version, it does fine vs all those openings if you do it correctly, unless you tech right after your 2nd gate and you face some kind of proxy-rax or similar. *sidenote* I recommend to always start that zealot and only cancel it if you see the gasless expand and the terran is not engineering blocking your natural expansion. Your expansion will be heavily delayed if you skip the zealot in this case and on most maps taking your natural somewhere else is kinda risky since it's tough to defend later on. | ||
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unit
United States2621 Posts
On November 23 2011 14:04 kcdc wrote: The trick is that I'm a badass. Mmmmmm, no, that's not it. It's probe micro. XNC is the fastest map to mine on too. i didnt expect this thread to help me as a player and not just in PvT, i never really focused on the early probe micro as i didnt feel it that important, well...seems like i was wrong and its def worth doing, as the time difference between our builds means that i had far more trouble holding off 2rax agression than i should have...also this is rather useful PvP ;3 | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
On November 25 2011 09:06 Fairwell wrote: I've been doing some testing regarding your 1gate fe version vs the huk fe (the greedy version where you cut probes at 20, get your nexus down, then produce a stalker), but instead of cb wg tech all the time and adding 2 more gates and then resuming probe production which you would need to do vs something like a 2rax pressure to not die, I resumed probe production and used all chronos except for one on it. I've been doing this in the past whenever I wanted to open huk-fe but scouted a gasless fe from the terran, so there was no need to cut more probes and rush for that warpgate tech unless you want to go on the aggressive. If you compare this to your version (without halting probe production on 27 supply), the moment both nexi are finishd (around 6:10 ingame time) the huk fe had 4 probes more. However, the 20food huk expo (especially true for the later versions where you get a stalker out before nexus or even sentries) is behind in economy otherwise. Keep in mind that if you scout out a gasless fe opening you can adjust and just chrono out your probes more with this version as well instead of using it on the sentry and zealot for example. So afterall you will be behind about 2-3 probes in that case. If you do the huk-fe and pull 1 probe out of gas and doing it on 19 supply (what Sase seems to be constantly doing on his stream), you can get your nexus down like 20sec earlier and get more ahead. Or you could even do the whitera version of delaying your cyber core once you spot gasless fe and get your nexus down faster. Your warpgate tech is going to be delayed, something your opponent will also be scouting. So the results so far from my testing: - Go for the opening kcdc describes here, it's really good. - If you scout gasless fe, quickly transition into a more greedy version (huk version; but only cut probes at 19/20 depending on version). - If you scout 1rax marauder conc expand go for the mc 1gate fe (basically zealot-stalker-stalker and expand at 31 supply). - If you scout your opponent too late (bigger 4 player map for example) just go for this 1gate fe version, it does fine vs all those openings if you do it correctly, unless you tech right after your 2nd gate and you face some kind of proxy-rax or similar. *sidenote* I recommend to always start that zealot and only cancel it if you see the gasless expand and the terran is not engineering blocking your natural expansion. Your expansion will be heavily delayed if you skip the zealot in this case and on most maps taking your natural somewhere else is kinda risky since it's tough to defend later on. you can do a huk type of FE without cutting probes though. Imo it's the best version of them all most of the time. If you do the build well you can drop your nexus before even starting warpgate technology and you're way ahead of this kcdc 1 gate FE build then. It's riskier in the early game ofcourse (though evens out in units at warpgate) and you get to scout before making the critical decision most of the time. If you don't scout them in time you can either guess they didn't proxy or do the safer 1 gate FE still. | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
Fairwell and Merkwerf, I do wonder how my opening would compare to a Huk-style FE that's safer against Terran builds that aren't no-gas FE. The Huk-style builds that you're comparing my build to aren't safe if you scout gas (and aren't safe against no-gas cheese that you can't 100% rule out before you've committed), so IMO, it'd make more sense to compare builds that are equally safe. If you want to throw risky builds into the pool, there are greedier options. | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
On November 23 2011 14:04 kcdc wrote: The trick is that I'm a badass. Mmmmmm, no, that's not it. It's probe micro. XNC is the fastest map to mine on too. Maybe also the fact that the nexus goes down at 26 on your replay instead of 27/28 as indicated in your post. But yeah, XN is perfect for probe stacking anyway. | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On November 27 2011 02:11 ZenithM wrote: Maybe also the fact that the nexus goes down at 26 on your replay instead of 27/28 as indicated in your post. But yeah, XN is perfect for probe stacking anyway. Huh, weird. I've been favoring 3 chronos on probes lately, but it might be the case that really efficient mining with 2 chronos can get you 400 minerals without probe cutting at 26 food. That'll never happen on maps with less than 4 close patches tho. | ||
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starfox0_0
United States29 Posts
The big problem is that I forgot how to do it but this reminded me of it and now it's time to practice. | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
On November 27 2011 02:28 kcdc wrote: Huh, weird. I've been favoring 3 chronos on probes lately, but it might be the case that really efficient mining with 2 chronos can get you 400 minerals without probe cutting at 26 food. That'll never happen on maps with less than 4 close patches tho. Yep, I just checked, with the perfect 2-2-2-2 stacking on close patches I got at around 0:55, I could plant down my nexus at 4:20 with 26/34 and maybe 2-3 game seconds probe cut on my nexus. I brought back my scouting probe very early though. I don't think this scenario is very realistic. | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
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Zalor
United States7 Posts
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Xanatoss
Germany539 Posts
On November 27 2011 08:20 Zalor wrote: Where do i spend my chrono after the first 2 or 3 chronos on the nexus? Specifically how many times do i need to chrono my core to have it line up with the 2 gateways. And also should i chrono the first stalker out? y u no read thread? 2 CB on Nexus Expo @ 27 Food 3 CB on CyCore 1 on Sentry 1 on 2nd Zealot lines up @ 5:46 With 3 CB on Nexus you need to stack Probes perfectly on 4 Patches and even then the Buildorder is unforgiving close. I recommend to stick with the regular version, all in all the difference is not even 50 minerals (3rd CB on Nexus). | ||
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Fairwell
Austria195 Posts
On November 27 2011 01:54 kcdc wrote: Fairwell, thanks for running those tests. I agree with your logic tree at the end, more or less, tho I do prefer to stay with zealot-stalker-sentry-zealot vs 1-rax marauder rather than zealot-stalker-stalker. If I expect that poke, I just pull ~4 probes out at the timing it would show up which makes it pretty easy to clean up. And if the poke doesn't come, the nexus finishes a few seconds later and you get those probes back to mining, so there's very little cost. Fairwell and Merkwerf, I do wonder how my opening would compare to a Huk-style FE that's safer against Terran builds that aren't no-gas FE. The Huk-style builds that you're comparing my build to aren't safe if you scout gas (and aren't safe against no-gas cheese that you can't 100% rule out before you've committed), so IMO, it'd make more sense to compare builds that are equally safe. If you want to throw risky builds into the pool, there are greedier options. I did some more testing, this time regarding only safe builds which you can use without really getting a good intel about your opponent's opening (because your scouting probe gets to his base too late and you can't see if he took a gas for example or you can't rule out any proxy rax + bunker pressure shenanigans). For the following I assume a gateway scout, which I always do on 2 player maps like XNC and mostly also on maps with 2 spawning possibilities for your opponent. A 9pylon scout basically works as well and I've switched to doing it more often lately because quit some terrans nowadays seem to like to start their supply debot right about 3-4sec ingame before your scouting probe gets into their base on maps like Shattered Temple if you scout him in the 2nd possible spawning location. So you either do a 9pylon scout to scout for gasless fe, do pylon block with cancel for addons in his main if you wish to etc and be as greedy as you can with the information you can get, or you just choose a safe version if you don't get in any more. As a sidenote I'd like to mention that on maps like Metalopolis and Shattered Temple if you scout him 2nd (that is last now also on ladder) and he starts his 2nd supply debot to block you from getting in he either cut scvs briefly to do so or went for gasless fe. It's not a 100% tell since he could have just briefly cut scvs to leave you in the dark, but it's a small tell for you. The best version/modification that is absolutely safe in this situation has been the Sase-version (only 2 cb on nexus, cut probes at 19, that means 16 probes on minerals, 2 on gas (you put a 3rd probe a bit later in your gas, I'll mention it in a little bit, one probe scouting out on the map, if that probe gets denied to scout his base leave it somewhere in front of his base so you can poke up to check marine count or for other tells like a bunker being started/addons on the rax there etc -> for those who are interested in timings: at 3:08min the first marine should pop out if the terran didn't delay his opening after the +5sec rax buildtime change, from there on by poking up his front you can derive information about his opening like him building a reactor (50sec ... that means at 4:23min he will have 5 marines, so if you check his ramp and see only one marine for a while and around 4:30 you can count 4+ marines it's gonna be a reactor and so on). Be aware that with the version described here you should be aware of an early scouting scv and where this one is heading to. Some players like to engineering block or bunker block your natural expansion forcing you into a significant delay for your expansion or into an expansion where your 3rd base is supposed to be. The first issue can be solved with starting a zealot after your cybercore has completed without cutting probes before you reach the 19 supply and cancelling that zealot when you see that no block is there. Signs for a block are his scv seeing your 2 probes in gas etc and going straight to your natural and staying there, in which case you should sent one probe to check until you decide to cancel your zealot. You can just stay with the build (the zealot will be out in time to kill that scv building an engineering bay) just with a 100min delayed expansion or you can decide to not cut probes at 19 and opt for another fe version at that point (put a 3rd probe in gas if you want to do so asap again). Other times your scouting probe at the xel naga or in front of his base will see his scouting scv returning home shortly after he left his base in which case you just cancel the zealot in the last second. All this depends on the rush distance of the map (so you can cancel that zealot in time), etc. The 2nd case usually comes into play when you didn't react correctly or too late which can be fine in my experience on some maps especially if you have a follow up with a quick 3rd base in mind (that is around 8min+ before medivacs have hit the field). In that case just make sure you start the 3rd pylon at your new expansion so your 3 stalker warpin if needed can be there. Your first stalkers are quick enough to walk there and you will see his push coming from the xel naga tower. I wouldn't recommend to do this on every map though. So if you ruled out those things or found the right reaction/solution you will want to expand at 19 supply. So once you get up to about 250minerals send a probe from your main to your natural and plant the nexus at 400 minerals (should be around 3:30min ingame so around 20sec earlier than the normal Hukversion, those 20sec come from having one less probe in gas and cutting one probe more before getting the nexus). Send this probe back to mining (unless you suspect an scv starting a hidden bunker around your nexus, then check for it first). Start warpgate tech with the next 50 minerals and cb it 5 times in a row (hint: I personally don't have issues hitting 5 cb on wg tech any more since I started to use this ingame warning you get when a cb runs out and I have it hotkeyed to jump there asap. So for everyone having issues hitting 5 cb on the warpgates should try this out.) Get your 20th probe now and put a 3rd probe back in gas. Your scouting probe stays in front of his base or at least the right xel naga. Next you get a non-cb stalker out of your 1st gate and follow it up by getting 2 more gates (so they finish exactly when wg tech finishes). You will continue probe production now and get a 2nd stalker right when the first one finishes (you will have exactly the money to get this 2nd stalker without a delay and get up to 22 probes). The next 100 minerals go to a pylon (sometimes probe production is halted for a slight moment, that depends on early game mineral pairing, if you use a probe to check for bunkers etc so if your pylon is a bit delayed or not; without delay there is no break here). You continue to produce probes nonstop from now on on both nexi. Don't forget to transfer all probes above 16 on minerals from your main and reset your worker ralley point to your natural expansion once your expansion nexus has finished to get the maximum mining efficiency. Once your warpgates are finished (of a 13 gate with 5 perfect cb on your warpgates it should be around 5:30, in a real game it's for me mostly around 5:35). Your 2nd and 3rd gateway finish that second and you transform all into warpgates. If you put your 3rd probe in gas at the right moment where I mentioned it before, you have exactly enough gas to warp in 3 more stalkers now. So you end up having 5 stalkers for any incoming pressure around 5:45min into the game (transformation time + warpin time included), enough money to nonstop produce probes now, 3 gates and 1 gas. From here one get another pylon and decide on your follow up. If it's heavy agression from your opponent with bunkers + scvs, just use the next free cb on warpgates to get more units out. If you warped in your 3 stalkers and your opponent didn't open 2 rax (you should have enough information by poking his front with the scouting probe now) go aggressive and set up the next pylon with your scouting probe at a good position near his base. Often times terrans will have their bunker started slightly too late (or if you can manage to delay it vs a gasless fe if you poked with your first 2 stalkers and did some nice focus firing). Make use of your units, if your opponent screwed up you can do sick dmg. If not just back, you lost nothing by trying it since you didn't cut probes for it and warped in those units anways already. If you do the the information that your opponent is not going to be agressive soon, skip the 3 stalker warpin and get a zealot-sentry warpin and use the saved money for faster further gases and teching up. Last but not least the eco result compared to kcdc's version described in the op. By using those first 2 cb on the nexus and 5 on warpgates with those probe cuts I had mentioned you end up having about one more probe (it's pretty much exactly one, but with all tests I did you always have some in production, so I tried to compare at the same ingame time when all versions have the expansion nexus completed and checked also the current probes in production how far they are from finishing) than the version described in this thread. You start mining more efficiently from your expansion earlier as well and if you get any information that you are going to be safe earlier you can modify it at any point by not doing those probe cuts (except for the first one) and delaying your unit production. However, you have a bit less mining at the start but more importantly, the kcdc version gets less infrastructure (no 3rd gate that early or only if you are sure a 2 rax is coming, which can be held of with 2 gates but you can add 1-2 more gates to go on the counteroffensive after holding it of or just to be safe if your opponent brings more scvs) which allows you to tech up quicker (for instance you can throw down a forge right when you would make your 3rd gate and have exactly 100gas to start +1 armor with constant production which leads into sick fast +2 armor if you start the twilight in time etc) and your unit composition seems to be nicer the longer your opponent waits or if he is not doing a strong push, because you get a sentry out earlier which has about 80-85energy when a 2rax hits (so enough for a gs which is a big help in holding of that push). Depending on your liking, your planned followup and by keeping those things in mind you should be choosing the opening you prefer more. | ||
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