Many of you will remember this thread that arguably popularized 1 gate FE vs Terran on NA ladder. 1 gate FE remains one of the best openings that can be used in PvT, and a wide variety of 1 gate FE build orders are used which, for the most part, accomplish the same things.
After testing many of the 1 gate FE build orders, I settled on the one that I thought was best and assumed that everybody used it. But it has recently come to my attention that this particular BO may not be popular, so I'm sharing it to win much admiration and glory. And to help less experienced players or whatever.
13 gate -> scout gas pylon core
This is normal. The core comes at 17 or 18 depending whether you use 2 or 3 chronoboosts on probes, which is essentially a matter of taste. More on chronoboost use in a bit.
zealot stalker nexus! (27 food if 2 chrono on probes, 27 or 28 food--map dependent--if 3 chrono on probes)
Here's where your scouting comes in. If you expect pressure, build your second gateway at 28 food, then start a probe, then a sentry. You'll see in the replay that I cut probe production for 5 seconds at this point. This is the only time in the build that I intentionally cut probes; if you see another time that my nexuses are idle, it's probably an error. If you don't expect pressure, you can get your 2nd gate after your sentry without cutting probes at all. If you don't know how to tell whether pressure is coming, it mostly boils down to whether you see T start a quick tech lab or a second barracks before his marine finishes. If you're in gold league and you're not sure, just get the fast 2nd gate. 5 seconds of probe cutting won't kill you.
Build a zealot immediately after your sentry. This zealot, your second gateway, and WG tech should all finish at the same time (~5:50), at which point you warp in 2 stalkers or a zealot and a stalker total 6 gateway units which is plenty to defend a 2-rax without pulling any probes.
Regarding chronoboost usage, using 2 chronoboosts on probes at the start times things up nicely because it lets you take your nexus at 27/34 and your second gateway at 28/34 without only 5 seconds of probe cutting. If you use a third chronoboost on your nexus before that point, it slightly extends that period, essentially wasting the chronoboost.
On the other hand, if T isn't doing a heavy-pressure build, you don't want to cut probes anyway, so the third chronoboost isn't wasted. Season to taste. Both options work fine, but for purposes of really syncing everything up and giving you that nice timing where you walk down and blast through T's pressure, the 2 chronoboost option will make your replay look cooler.
I'm favoring 3 chronoboosts on probes right now. I don't know exactly the difference on every map (it changes based on how far mineral patches are), but I still seem to be able to get everything out in time to deal with every push, although my first warp-in round finishes closer to 6:10 than 6:00. It's still fast enough to defend 2 or 3-rax.
In summary, this build slightly improves on my old zealot-stalker-stalker-nexus because it gets the nexus at 27 food, 175 minerals earlier than the 30 food nexus. It also gets the 2nd gate much earlier (250 minerals earlier than a build that starts a third stalker before a second gate) which allows you to warp in 2 units right at 6 minutes rather than one when you need it and another a little later. It also substantially eliminates the probe cutting that is common in 1 gate FE, makes use of the gas surplus you wind up with, and starts accumulating sentry energy earlier. I particularly like that the extra energy gives you the option of popping a guardian shield which helps a ton against the marine-heavy 2-rax.
The downside is that you're sitting on zealot+stalker for a short window when you'd otherwise have a second stalker. This means that you need to be a little more careful against super-fast marauder pressure. Grab a watch tower or position a probe/unit so that you can see in advance if T is doing a 2 marauder push with 2+ SCVs. If that push is coming, grab 4 probes and attack him before the bunkers get planted. If you wait to engage until the bunkers are started, it's harder to control and your units will attack the wrong stuff, so I think it's easiest to just pull early and nip the push at the bud.
The 2 marauder push with quick bunkers is the only one you want to use probes for. Even if you're going with the super-greedy transition I'm using lately (robo and 2nd assimilator before WG tech finishes), you can hold the reactor 2-rax without probes.
If you want a more in-depth discussion of the strategy of 1 gate FE, check out my old thread. It's old, but it should be a decent resource for new players.
Thanks again kcdc! Your old 1 gate FE really did save my PvT -- I'm looking forward to this build doing the same to my current slump ><
Your opening is solid -- my question is more of a transition into mid game. Sometimes playing this build (in master) I'm too greedy on probes and tech, thus die to 2 base T stim timing (early stim due to 2 rax expo opening). Do you have advices on scouting the number of raxes --> appropriate response? The big question is when to tech to colossi? And if rely on gateway and upgrades, any ideas about twilight and forge timing?
Nice write up, i noticed a small error when you are refering to "using 2 or 3 on probes" it is clear that you mean chronoboost, but it is only explicitly said afterwards
On the other hand, this is a very nice variation that i will try tomorrow with any luck Thx you very much for this!
Thanks for the guide. I've been trying to do 1 gate FE recently but I have trouble holding off the 2 rax reactor first pressure that's fairly popular at the moment. My friend does that build almost exclusively in TvP so I'm definately going to try out this buid against him.
With regards to scouting the terrans build, do you ever pressure with the first zealot + stalker? I apologize if the replay answers this, I don't have sc2 installed on this PC.
On November 16 2011 08:36 Quochobao wrote: Thanks again kcdc! Your old 1 gate FE really did save my PvT -- I'm looking forward to this build doing the same to my current slump ><
Your opening is solid -- my question is more of a transition into mid game. Sometimes playing this build (in master) I'm too greedy on probes and tech, thus die to 2 base T stim timing (early stim due to 2 rax expo opening). Do you have advices on scouting the number of raxes --> appropriate response? The big question is when to tech to colossi? And if rely on gateway and upgrades, any ideas about twilight and forge timing?
Many thanks!
Don't know!
Really, there are just too many options and variables to go into it. If you want quick ladder wins against standard bio expands, I recommend transitioning into a 7 gate all-in. Up to about the GM level, Terran players mostly can't stop it.
What is the point of making the sentry after nexus when it only costs 50 minerals and you have just enough gas to afford it anyways after stalker ?
My 1gate FE is pretty much exactly this except it's zealot stalker sentry before nexus which allows me to maximize my gateway production. Are the 10 additional seconds on FE really worth having your units delayed by 20 secs ?
On November 16 2011 08:38 SeriouR wrote: Nice write up, i noticed a small error when you are refering to "using 2 or 3 on probes" it is clear that you mean chronoboost, but it is only explicitly said afterwards
On the other hand, this is a very nice variation that i will try tomorrow with any luck Thx you very much for this!
Thanks. I've weeded out several mistakes and awkward phrasings, but I'm sure there's more in there.
On November 16 2011 08:40 [KGS]Slacker wrote: Thanks for the guide. I've been trying to do 1 gate FE recently but I have trouble holding off the 2 rax reactor first pressure that's fairly popular at the moment. My friend does that build almost exclusively in TvP so I'm definately going to try out this buid against him.
With regards to scouting the terrans build, do you ever pressure with the first zealot + stalker? I apologize if the replay answers this, I don't have sc2 installed on this PC.
You can. I used to do that poke all the time (people on ladder sometimes called it the kcdc poke when I did it), but it's best to do when you chronoboost your first stalker and T doesn't go straight to tech lab after his first marine. Since I don't chronoboost my first stalker anymore, I don't bother with the poke.
On November 16 2011 08:41 Geiko wrote: What is the point of making the sentry after nexus when it only costs 50 minerals and you have just enough gas to afford it anyways after stalker ?
My 1gate FE is pretty much exactly this except it's zealot stalker sentry before nexus which allows me to maximize my gateway production. Are the 10 additional seconds on FE really worth having your units delayed by 20 secs ?
It just lets you get your nexus and 2nd gateway 50 minerals earlier. I used to do it the other way around, but I realized I wasn't using my sentry for anything at that timing and delaying my sentry still left me enough time to complete my 2nd zealot before WG tech, so it made sense to speed up the nexus and 2nd gate.
On November 16 2011 08:46 zeehar wrote: kcdc, you don't mention when you take the second gas. i imagine it'd be after the second gate?
thank you very much for updating this.
Depends how you want to transition. I intentionally left this open. If you want to rush colossi or DT's or double-upgrades, take the 2nd gas early. If you want to all-in with zealots, take it late or not at all.
Hey kcdc, thank you very much for this, I do a lot of different variants of 1 gate FE and I never can decide which is the best, glad to have a good player's take on this.
I have two questions:
_ Is there a reason to why you don't take the xel naga towers in the replay, or even poke the ramp (even if it's more dangerous I guess)? I'm used to take the furthest with my stalker and the nearest with my zealot. Is it to /really/ deny the scv scouting? Edit: forget poking at the ramp, you scouted the 2 rax, still I think you could take the towers, right? Do you fear a reaper?
_ What's your opinion on a 1 gate nexus before core expand?
On November 16 2011 09:13 ZenithM wrote: Hey kcdc, thank you very much for this, I do a lot of different variants of 1 gate FE and I never can decide which is the best, glad to have a good player's take on this.
I have two questions:
_ Is there a reason to why you don't take the xel naga towers in the replay, or even poke the ramp (even if it's more dangerous I guess)? I'm used to take the furthest with my stalker and the nearest with my zealot. Is it to /really/ deny the scv scouting? Edit: forget poking at the ramp, you scouted the 2 rax, still I think you could take the towers, right? Do you fear a reaper?
_ What's your opinion on a 1 gate nexus before core expand?
Thanks alot.
Good questions. I don't poke the ramp because I don't chrono my stalker, so I don't know that it's safe. I didn't take the towers mostly because I was pretty sure what was coming and moving forward would have increased my chances of screwing up. I usually do take a central tower, but on on XNC, there's two attack paths, so you need to take both towers at the same time to make sure you didn't miss their army going by the other side. I'm bad at multi-tasking, and I wind up screwing up a bunch when messing with the towers on XNC. Also, I like to use my zealot and stalker to deny sneaky bunkering near my nexus (I did this in the replay).
I don't know anything about nexus before core. If you're delaying your stalker, why not go nexus first?
Can you hold a 3 rax with 2 gates? I've always used three gates with a 1 gate FE, doing a zealot-stalker-stalker and cutting probes to get 2 gates up. I see you hold off the 2 rax with 2 gate, but I think three would be a different story. How would you react differently, cutting probes for more gates? (Assuming you make the read that it's a 3 rax.)
On November 16 2011 10:08 Indrium wrote: Nice guide. I like it.
Can you hold a 3 rax with 2 gates? I've always used three gates with a 1 gate FE, doing a zealot-stalker-stalker and cutting probes to get 2 gates up. I see you hold off the 2 rax with 2 gate, but I think three would be a different story. How would you react differently, cutting probes for more gates? (Assuming you make the read that it's a 3 rax.)
This falls into the transition period that I've left intentionally open. You have a bunch of minerals and gas around 34 food that you can use on extra gates, assimilator(s), forge(s), robo, twilight, etc. Do what you think makes sense.
On November 16 2011 10:08 Indrium wrote: Nice guide. I like it.
Can you hold a 3 rax with 2 gates? I've always used three gates with a 1 gate FE, doing a zealot-stalker-stalker and cutting probes to get 2 gates up. I see you hold off the 2 rax with 2 gate, but I think three would be a different story. How would you react differently, cutting probes for more gates? (Assuming you make the read that it's a 3 rax.)
This falls into the transition period that I've left intentionally open. You have a bunch of minerals and gas around 34 food that you can use on extra gates, assimilator(s), forge(s), robo, twilight, etc. Do what you think makes sense.
Why did you add those 2 extra gates before his push hit? Were you just completely sure he would do the pressure and wanted to counter attack, or would you need more gates to hold if he went for like 3-4 rax?
On November 16 2011 10:16 CrazyF1r3f0x wrote: Why did you add those 2 extra gates before his push hit? Were you just completely sure he would do the pressure and wanted to counter attack, or would you need more gates to hold if he went for like 3-4 rax?
I wanted to counter-attack. You might notice that I sent a probe to his natural while his attack was moving toward me. That was because I was planning to set up my forward pylon for a counter-attack before his attack started.
I don't know how things work out without the additional gates because I plan to counter against quick bio pressure.
Hey when i do one gate expand i usually go pylon gate gas core and 2nd gas when core is in progress. then i get zealot sentry sentry nexus. Is your build better/refined. or is this ok? Have you tested this variation?
EDIT: thanks for your reply: I just felt that when i go zealot sentry sentry the extra ff can trap the units that he sends and it make killing them much easier. but you are right when it comes to dealing with that pesky reaper.
On November 16 2011 10:25 MysteryMeat1 wrote: Hey when i do one gate expand i usually go pylon gate gas core and 2nd gas when core is in progress. then i get zealot sentry sentry nexus. Is your build better/refined. or is this ok? Have you tested this variation?
I don't like that as much because I think your defense is a lot more versatile if you have a stalker (you can kill reapers, you can handle marauder kiting, your army is a little meatier against 2 marauder pokes), but you can do what makes you happy. More sentries early makes for a stronger 6 gate timing.
been waiting on another thread of yours kcdc, your original threab about 1 gate FE basically got me through 3 leagues (plat into masters) in terms of how much it improved my pvt, I really like the timing of the second gate and will be trying this out a bunch. one quick question though, i don't know if you've messed around with pylon blocking the addon (not letting pylon finish ofc) but it gives a decent amount of information regarding what the terran is doing if you scout a gas opening.
Rax lift, you can expect pressure. No rax lift, some kind of tech build or the terran's initial build is delayed by the amount of time the pylon is there, which isn't bad either.
For the longest time I've thought 1 gate expand means... make 1 gate, then expand. But apparently you get gas and core.
So I was wondering, why don't people call it strictly what it is -- a core expand? The purpose of naming a build order... the actual build itself is to make things convenient and so people who see the name of the BO get an idea of what it is. If someone wants to say "1 gate expand" now then it will be confused with getting a core expand o.o
I do realize that if you get 3 gates then a core and expand, it should not be called "3 gate core expand" nor "3 core expand", but it's pretty obvious when you say "3 gate expand" that you don't just get the 3 gates for zealots xD.
This isn't quite safe IMO, the most aggressive 2raxes will have 3 marauders 9 marines, x scv's at ~6:30 at your nat (on a non-huge map). You will only have 2 zealots 3 stalkers and a sentry (with guardian shield). Or he'll have 3 marauders 11 marines, x scv's at 6:45 in your nat vs 2 zealots 5 stalkers and a sentry (with guardian shield).
You can hold maybe if you see it coming and pull a good amount of probes, but you will lose a LOT of probes. Especially if he sends ~3 scv's.
I understand this build is a faster but also safer version of the 1 gate FE. I see you focus more on handling pressure while getting the expo up.
But compared to the zealot-stalker-stalker expo, would it be more worth it to trade an earlier expo for the ability to pressure? If your opponent plans to pressure you heavily of course you won't be able to pressure them much either(more early units for defense though) but if your opponent has no plans to pressure you (teching up hard or taking a fast expo), wouldn't a zealot stalker stalker pressure be worth it to sacrifice for a slightly earlier nexus? Pressuring with initial gateway units has always been a huge part of protoss play lately. If you take a look at players like SaSe, he could even take off bunkers or at least a few SCVs/marines with 3-4 gateway units only. I know it's arguable that not everyone has that kind of micro but it's also true that the opponents we face don't have that kind of defense either.
So it comes down to this, how much more is the benefit of a nexus before a 2nd stalker? Compared to the HuK variation of super early nexus I would say this is much much safer although not as greedy. This build sort of struck me to be in between being greedy and wanting to pressure. I would say having a zealot and stalker you probably won't be able to pressure much if not at all but having an extra stalker does change a huge deal in the early stages of the game.
Therefore, I would like to know your thoughts about whether the ability to pressure is worth more than a couple seconds earlier of a nexus? Is the extra income from the slightly earlier nexus better than a few marines/scv or even forcing your opponent to make more units and not be too greedy.
On November 16 2011 12:13 Complete wrote: I've been working on 1g FE recently!
This isn't quite safe IMO, the most aggressive 2raxes will have 3 marauders 9 marines, x scv's at ~6:30 at your nat (on a non-huge map). You will only have 2 zealots 3 stalkers and a sentry (with guardian shield). Or he'll have 3 marauders 11 marines, x scv's at 6:45 in your nat vs 2 zealots 5 stalkers and a sentry (with guardian shield).
You can hold maybe if you see it coming and pull a good amount of probes, but you will lose a LOT of probes. Especially if he sends ~3 scv's.
Did you watch the replay? I haven't counted the units, but Pokebunny is a good T player that was doing the aggressive 2-rax with 2nd rax before supply depot and reactor after 1st marine. I'm pretty sure that's the optimal BO, and that anything that hits harder would probably fall into the category of cheese that you need to scout and react (ie not expand) against.
On November 16 2011 12:41 Xenorawks wrote: I understand this build is a faster but also safer version of the 1 gate FE. I see you focus more on handling pressure while getting the expo up.
But compared to the zealot-stalker-stalker expo, would it be more worth it to trade an earlier expo for the ability to pressure? If your opponent plans to pressure you heavily of course you won't be able to pressure them much either(more early units for defense though) but if your opponent has no plans to pressure you (teching up hard or taking a fast expo), wouldn't a zealot stalker stalker pressure be worth it to sacrifice for a slightly earlier nexus? Pressuring with initial gateway units has always been a huge part of protoss play lately. If you take a look at players like SaSe, he could even take off bunkers or at least a few SCVs/marines with 3-4 gateway units only. I know it's arguable that not everyone has that kind of micro but it's also true that the opponents we face don't have that kind of defense either.
So it comes down to this, how much more is the benefit of a nexus before a 2nd stalker? Compared to the HuK variation of super early nexus I would say this is much much safer although not as greedy. This build sort of struck me to be in between being greedy and wanting to pressure. I would say having a zealot and stalker you probably won't be able to pressure much if not at all but having an extra stalker does change a huge deal in the early stages of the game.
Therefore, I would like to know your thoughts about whether the ability to pressure is worth more than a couple seconds earlier of a nexus? Is the extra income from the slightly earlier nexus better than a few marines/scv or even forcing your opponent to make more units and not be too greedy.
If pressure is working well for you, don't change it. I found that it didn't do much for me anymore, but maybe that's because my opponents knew what to expect. I prefer this BO because it's better if T plays optimally (in which case he'll lose nothing to the zealot-stalker poke), but the zealot-stalker poke will sometimes win a game outright when T does an unsafe build or screws up his micro.
anybody else having trouble downloading the replay? or is it just me?
since i cant look at it id like to know the nexus timing and the probe count by the time the first warp in comes. Coz im doing a bit dif bo that reaches the same army comp at the same timing and id like to campare.
The downside is that you're sitting on zealot+stalker for a short window when you'd otherwise have a second stalker. This means that you need to be a little more careful against super-fast marauder pressure, and you may want to pull a couple probes if you think you need them to deny an early bunker. ...
that's just the reason I started using the zealot, stalker, stalker FE instead of others. 1 rax marauder pressure is more economic than the 2 rax with reactor first for the terran. so there is really no point in setting yourself behind against the more economic build if you want to go economic yourself.
you can't deal with fast marauders with your build and there are other builds which deal better with 2 rax than yours. for example skipping the zealot and just go stalker -> nexus(edit: before third pylon) -> more gates and chronoed warpgate-tech. the only upside of your build is the guardian shield. but with the quick warpgate with 3 or 4 gates you can just get enough zealot stalker soon enough to crush 2 rax without guardian shield.
TL;DR: with your build you will take damage against quick marauders anyway and at the same time you are more susceptible to 2 rax.
On November 16 2011 08:27 kcdc wrote: Build a zealot immediately after your sentry. This zealot, your second gateway, and WG tech should all finish at the same time (~5:50), at which point you warp in 2 stalkers for a total of 2z/3s/1s, and then if T was dumb enough to follow through on the pressure, you walk down and kill him.
Or he kills you, depending on his opening. You cannot hold a fast 3Rax with 1 Techlab 1 Reactor with only 2 Gateways. You simply can't, even with 3 and a lot more probecut it is so hard to do. I find that the only way to be sure to survive is 20/22 food Nexus into 3 additional Gates with WG Research Chronoboosted if you see preassure or have no scouting information.
This is Huk's way to expand, I started doing this after I died to an attack of (if I recall correctly) 2 Marauders could have been three, not sure with Shells and 11 Marines at minute 6:10
The thing was Terran went for a 13 and a 14 Rax, got 2 Marines to deny any scouting and then added Reactor+Techlab and another Barracks, I only saw a 13 Barracks and a Marine. This is where Huk's expansion is so brilliant, you get 4Gates really fast and have 2 Stalkers to scout, then you can have up to 10 Units as your Terran buddy arrives, sure you cut a ton of probes and spend all chronoboost on your Warpgates etc, your Eco sux for a fast Nexus but you will survive! If you don't need that many Units you are about equal with a 28ish food Nexus due to Chronoboost usage(more on Probes with later Nexus).
Sidenote: Zealot+Stalker Preassure should never work against a Terran. It can do damage only if he messes up. He either should greet you with a Bunker or Concussive Shells. Either way you don't do damage and if he has concussive and tricks you you lost the game right there.
On November 16 2011 08:27 kcdc wrote: Build a zealot immediately after your sentry. This zealot, your second gateway, and WG tech should all finish at the same time (~5:50), at which point you warp in 2 stalkers for a total of 2z/3s/1s, and then if T was dumb enough to follow through on the pressure, you walk down and kill him.
Or he kills you, depending on his opening. You cannot hold a fast 3Rax with 1 Techlab 1 Reactor with only 2 Gateways. You simply can't, even with 3 and a lot more probecut it is so hard to do. I find that the only way to be sure to survive is 20/22 food Nexus into 3 additional Gates with WG Research Chronoboosted if you see preassure or have no scouting information.
This pretty much describes my mindset a couple weeks ago
Nowadays I throw down my robotics way earlier with the intention of going into a greedy double forge play with carefully balanced immortal support. If I face a 3 rax all-in I sack the expo and go straight into a one base colossus play and just hold my ramp.
On November 16 2011 08:27 kcdc wrote: Build a zealot immediately after your sentry. This zealot, your second gateway, and WG tech should all finish at the same time (~5:50), at which point you warp in 2 stalkers for a total of 2z/3s/1s, and then if T was dumb enough to follow through on the pressure, you walk down and kill him.
Or he kills you, depending on his opening. You cannot hold a fast 3Rax with 1 Techlab 1 Reactor with only 2 Gateways. You simply can't, even with 3 and a lot more probecut it is so hard to do. I find that the only way to be sure to survive is 20/22 food Nexus into 3 additional Gates with WG Research Chronoboosted if you see preassure or have no scouting information.
This pretty much describes my mindset a couple weeks ago
Nowadays I throw down my robotics way earlier with the intention of going into a greedy double forge play with carefully balanced immortal support. If I face a 3 rax all-in I sack the expo and go straight into a one base colossus play and just hold my ramp.
Yo, good luck on Tal'darim.
After the described loss I was so angry and sure that Terran was OP and that in no way I can have a decent eco and be safe against Terran. (I mean you can face 3 Rax all-in or 1Rax Expo and you will see the exact same thing, 13 Rax and a Marine) So I did a ton of research, a couple of games against computer, wrote down timings, Units etc and came to the conclusion that HuK's 20 Food expansion is the way to go. If you don't think so, don't do it but on Tal'darim you either get HuK's 20 Food expo or you can get a buildorder loss.
On November 16 2011 08:27 kcdc wrote: Build a zealot immediately after your sentry. This zealot, your second gateway, and WG tech should all finish at the same time (~5:50), at which point you warp in 2 stalkers for a total of 2z/3s/1s, and then if T was dumb enough to follow through on the pressure, you walk down and kill him.
Or he kills you, depending on his opening. You cannot hold a fast 3Rax with 1 Techlab 1 Reactor with only 2 Gateways. You simply can't, even with 3 and a lot more probecut it is so hard to do. I find that the only way to be sure to survive is 20/22 food Nexus into 3 additional Gates with WG Research Chronoboosted if you see preassure or have no scouting information.
This pretty much describes my mindset a couple weeks ago
Nowadays I throw down my robotics way earlier with the intention of going into a greedy double forge play with carefully balanced immortal support. If I face a 3 rax all-in I sack the expo and go straight into a one base colossus play and just hold my ramp.
Yo, good luck on Tal'darim.
Dude, Tal'darim has always been different
On Tal'darim the long rush distances help...usually I just go one gate exp into 3 more gates.
HuK's build is definitely one of my favorite to do, and afaik is one of the most sound ways to crush 2 rax pressure while expanding early. As for 3 rax I don't really know, I still often lose to it, and when I do it myself as well it's very easy to win with that. Just bring your scv's, get a huge arc and rofl-faceroll some stutter step A-move :D
What do you do against 3rax when doing a 1 gate expo? That's mainly why I stopped 1 gate FE'ing on xel naga and I've done more 2 gate roboing on this map.
The biggest problem with 1 gate fe I found was 3-4 rax play. The terran would not attack early just get the map control and reinforce untill he has a huge mm force which just destroys my gateway units. This way I dont really have time to tech or build up eco because I expect to be attacked anytime. And you cant really scout if you go 1 gate FE.
The downside is that you're sitting on zealot+stalker for a short window when you'd otherwise have a second stalker. This means that you need to be a little more careful against super-fast marauder pressure, and you may want to pull a couple probes if you think you need them to deny an early bunker. ...
that's just the reason I started using the zealot, stalker, stalker FE instead of others. 1 rax marauder pressure is more economic than the 2 rax with reactor first for the terran. so there is really no point in setting yourself behind against the more economic build if you want to go economic yourself.
you can't deal with fast marauders with your build and there are other builds which deal better with 2 rax than yours. for example skipping the zealot and just go stalker -> nexus(edit: before third pylon) -> more gates and chronoed warpgate-tech. the only upside of your build is the guardian shield. but with the quick warpgate with 3 or 4 gates you can just get enough zealot stalker soon enough to crush 2 rax without guardian shield.
TL;DR: with your build you will take damage against quick marauders anyway and at the same time you are more susceptible to 2 rax.
so this build really has no point in my opinion.
This just isn't at all true. You absolutely can deal easily with fast marauders with this opening. Like I said, I almost never pull probes. The only time I would pull probes is if T brings 2-3 SCV's at the 2 marauder timing (at which I have 1z/1s/1s) and starts multi-bunkering immediately, in which case I'll consider pulling 2-3 probes to clean it up. Hell, even if you're not keeping tabs on the low ground and let them get bunkers up, you can usually clean it up fine at 6 min w/o pulling probes.
Post a replay if you're struggling against something.
On November 16 2011 08:27 kcdc wrote: Build a zealot immediately after your sentry. This zealot, your second gateway, and WG tech should all finish at the same time (~5:50), at which point you warp in 2 stalkers for a total of 2z/3s/1s, and then if T was dumb enough to follow through on the pressure, you walk down and kill him.
Or he kills you, depending on his opening. You cannot hold a fast 3Rax with 1 Techlab 1 Reactor with only 2 Gateways. You simply can't, even with 3 and a lot more probecut it is so hard to do. I find that the only way to be sure to survive is 20/22 food Nexus into 3 additional Gates with WG Research Chronoboosted if you see preassure or have no scouting information.
This is Huk's way to expand, I started doing this after I died to an attack of (if I recall correctly) 2 Marauders could have been three, not sure with Shells and 11 Marines at minute 6:10
The thing was Terran went for a 13 and a 14 Rax, got 2 Marines to deny any scouting and then added Reactor+Techlab and another Barracks, I only saw a 13 Barracks and a Marine. This is where Huk's expansion is so brilliant, you get 4Gates really fast and have 2 Stalkers to scout, then you can have up to 10 Units as your Terran buddy arrives, sure you cut a ton of probes and spend all chronoboost on your Warpgates etc, your Eco sux for a fast Nexus but you will survive! If you don't need that many Units you are about equal with a 28ish food Nexus due to Chronoboost usage(more on Probes with later Nexus).
Sidenote: Zealot+Stalker Preassure should never work against a Terran. It can do damage only if he messes up. He either should greet you with a Bunker or Concussive Shells. Either way you don't do damage and if he has concussive and tricks you you lost the game right there.
This post is misguided. You can get as many gateways as you want with my opening--you just get them faster than you would with zealot-stalker-stalker. I only specified the timing for the second gateway because after that point, you're free to transition however you think makes sense. You'll see in the replay that I got 4 gateways so that I could counter-attack after defending, and I could have had gates #3 and 4 much earlier than I started them.
Also, I don't know why you weren't able to scout a 13 and 14 rax unless one was proxied. Please post a replay if you find something that you can't defend with this opening. I play a lot of GM Terrans, and I defend all of their pressure builds easily.
The downside is that you're sitting on zealot+stalker for a short window when you'd otherwise have a second stalker. This means that you need to be a little more careful against super-fast marauder pressure, and you may want to pull a couple probes if you think you need them to deny an early bunker. ...
that's just the reason I started using the zealot, stalker, stalker FE instead of others. 1 rax marauder pressure is more economic than the 2 rax with reactor first for the terran. so there is really no point in setting yourself behind against the more economic build if you want to go economic yourself.
you can't deal with fast marauders with your build and there are other builds which deal better with 2 rax than yours. for example skipping the zealot and just go stalker -> nexus(edit: before third pylon) -> more gates and chronoed warpgate-tech. the only upside of your build is the guardian shield. but with the quick warpgate with 3 or 4 gates you can just get enough zealot stalker soon enough to crush 2 rax without guardian shield.
TL;DR: with your build you will take damage against quick marauders anyway and at the same time you are more susceptible to 2 rax.
so this build really has no point in my opinion.
This just isn't at all true. You absolutely can deal easily with fast marauders with this opening. Like I said, I almost never pull probes. The only time I would pull probes is if T brings 2-3 SCV's at the 2 marauder timing (at which I have 1z/1s/1s) and starts multi-bunkering immediately, in which case I'll consider pulling 2-3 probes to clean it up. Hell, even if you're not keeping tabs on the low ground and let them get bunkers up, you can usually clean it up fine at 6 min w/o pulling probes.
Post a replay if you're struggling against something.
in what world do 1z/1s/1s beat 1scv, 1 marine and 2 marauders? marauders focus the stalker and then you will loose the other 2 units if you dont use probes. you kill the marine and the scv and that's it. if the terran walks up a ramp with this he is loosing of course. if he stays on the low ground and starts bunkering, you have to react and you just loose (without using probes). with 1 zealot 2 stalkers this looks different.
Thanks so much for this guide. I've been doing Creator's 1-gate expand from the GSTL semi finals ever since I saw them, which is a Zealot-Stalker-Stalker variant, but I almost never get any utility out of the second Stalker except for the rare free Marine kills against a bad or overly greedy opponent, so I've been thinking about ways to skip that out and still be safe against early pressure. If you're holding GM pressure with this, I'll be just fine in my little bunker all the way at the bottom of the Diamond league.
On November 17 2011 01:45 trinxified wrote: Is there a reason not to do 1gate fe against terran at all? I'm only mid masters, and I have a bit trouble with PvT
Against obvious marine scv all ins or proxy buildings, 1 gate FE is not that good (;D). 1 gate FE is so common now that I've seen a few pro games where Terran does his 2 rax reactor techlab with the techlabbed barracks proxied. It's quite deadly.
On November 16 2011 12:13 Complete wrote: I've been working on 1g FE recently!
This isn't quite safe IMO, the most aggressive 2raxes will have 3 marauders 9 marines, x scv's at ~6:30 at your nat (on a non-huge map). You will only have 2 zealots 3 stalkers and a sentry (with guardian shield). Or he'll have 3 marauders 11 marines, x scv's at 6:45 in your nat vs 2 zealots 5 stalkers and a sentry (with guardian shield).
You can hold maybe if you see it coming and pull a good amount of probes, but you will lose a LOT of probes. Especially if he sends ~3 scv's.
Did you watch the replay? I haven't counted the units, but Pokebunny is a good T player that was doing the aggressive 2-rax with 2nd rax before supply depot and reactor after 1st marine. I'm pretty sure that's the optimal BO, and that anything that hits harder would probably fall into the category of cheese that you need to scout and react (ie not expand) against.
If he builds the raxes next to his ramp and builds an SCV instead of an OC and gets the 2nd rax faster it's ~15 seconds quicker.
I guess my issue with this build is that if you scout on 13 on a 4 player map (say antiga) you won't be able to get up his ramp scouting him 2nd/3rd position to see what addons he has, if he took a gas, if he built an aggressive 2nd rax. This puts you in a pinch, because if you build an early 3rd gate you can hold an aggressive 2rax if you don't build a quick robo, but if you didn't see the addons you can't know he isn't going cloak bancheese so you need to build a quick robo...
@WratihofAuir in the real world? You just have to micro and not get your stalker tagged easily.
The downside is that you're sitting on zealot+stalker for a short window when you'd otherwise have a second stalker. This means that you need to be a little more careful against super-fast marauder pressure, and you may want to pull a couple probes if you think you need them to deny an early bunker. ...
that's just the reason I started using the zealot, stalker, stalker FE instead of others. 1 rax marauder pressure is more economic than the 2 rax with reactor first for the terran. so there is really no point in setting yourself behind against the more economic build if you want to go economic yourself.
you can't deal with fast marauders with your build and there are other builds which deal better with 2 rax than yours. for example skipping the zealot and just go stalker -> nexus(edit: before third pylon) -> more gates and chronoed warpgate-tech. the only upside of your build is the guardian shield. but with the quick warpgate with 3 or 4 gates you can just get enough zealot stalker soon enough to crush 2 rax without guardian shield.
TL;DR: with your build you will take damage against quick marauders anyway and at the same time you are more susceptible to 2 rax.
so this build really has no point in my opinion.
This just isn't at all true. You absolutely can deal easily with fast marauders with this opening. Like I said, I almost never pull probes. The only time I would pull probes is if T brings 2-3 SCV's at the 2 marauder timing (at which I have 1z/1s/1s) and starts multi-bunkering immediately, in which case I'll consider pulling 2-3 probes to clean it up. Hell, even if you're not keeping tabs on the low ground and let them get bunkers up, you can usually clean it up fine at 6 min w/o pulling probes.
Post a replay if you're struggling against something.
in what world do 1z/1s/1s beat 1scv, 1 marine and 2 marauders? marauders focus the stalker and then you will loose the other 2 units if you dont use probes. you kill the marine and the scv and that's it. if the terran walks up a ramp with this he is loosing of course. if he stays on the low ground and starts bunkering, you have to react and you just loose (without using probes). with 1 zealot 2 stalkers this looks different.
Just don't do that fight. If he comes up your ramp, it's easy to beat, and if he stays down and bunkers, bring ~5 probes and win.
I just ran about 5 tests with Monk doing that sort of pressure bringing 3 SCVs, and it's actually quite difficult to defend, but it can be done. He won most of them, but they were my first games of the day, and I was playing poorly. Here's what I recommend: put a probe on a watch tower if you can to see what's coming and how many SCVs he's bringing, pull enough probes to kill the units with your zealot and stalker, and focus the SCVs down with the sentry to prevent the bunker from completing. I recommend grabbing a practice partner and running through it until you're comfortable executing because it's not easy to do.
Of course, in order to for a zealot-stalker-stalker build to be more safe against the same pressure, you'd wind up with about 3 fewer probes. Since it's much easier to defend that pressure with zealot-stalker-stalker, my build is arguably worse against that marauder pressure, but IMO, it is possible to defend that push, and against everything else, my build is significantly better.
I find that a one gate expand is weak to an aggressive 2 rax. If you delay your expansion for a second gateway then you can have 1 zealot, 1 stalker and 3 sentries at 5:50, with a 2 unit warp in to come.
I think 1 gate expands work because terran players like to build a marine to deny your scouting, even if they are doing a simple two rax build.
For example, I am no terran player, but even I can quickly load up a game against the AI and do a build that gives me 4 marauders (with concussive), 2 marines and 2 scvs at my opponents natural before 5:50, with an expansion going up behind it and more units on their way. All it takes is skipping the marines and going straight for the addons. As such, i like to get 2 gates and some sentries out early.
That said, it might be due to my reluctance to bring probes to the fight. I suppose I should just be less scared of fast marauder builds and be prepared to pull more probes?
On November 17 2011 05:46 hzflank wrote: I find that a one gate expand is weak to an aggressive 2 rax. If you delay your expansion for a second gateway then you can have 1 zealot, 1 stalker and 3 sentries at 5:50, with a 2 unit warp in to come.
I think 1 gate expands work because terran players like to build a marine to deny your scouting, even if they are doing a simple two rax build.
For example, I am no terran player, but even I can quickly load up a game against the AI and do a build that gives me 4 marauders (with concussive), 2 marines and 2 scvs at my opponents natural before 5:50, with an expansion going up behind it and more units on their way. All it takes is skipping the marines and going straight for the addons. As such, i like to get 2 gates and some sentries out early.
That said, it might be due to my reluctance to bring probes to the fight. I suppose I should just be less scared of fast marauder builds and be prepared to pull more probes?
You are aware that any player above silver would scout what you are doing given that you skipped the marine and could easily prepare for it?
On November 17 2011 05:46 hzflank wrote: I find that a one gate expand is weak to an aggressive 2 rax. If you delay your expansion for a second gateway then you can have 1 zealot, 1 stalker and 3 sentries at 5:50, with a 2 unit warp in to come.
I think 1 gate expands work because terran players like to build a marine to deny your scouting, even if they are doing a simple two rax build.
For example, I am no terran player, but even I can quickly load up a game against the AI and do a build that gives me 4 marauders (with concussive), 2 marines and 2 scvs at my opponents natural before 5:50, with an expansion going up behind it and more units on their way. All it takes is skipping the marines and going straight for the addons. As such, i like to get 2 gates and some sentries out early.
That said, it might be due to my reluctance to bring probes to the fight. I suppose I should just be less scared of fast marauder builds and be prepared to pull more probes?
You are aware that any player above silver would scout what you are doing given that you skipped the marine and could easily prepare for it?
exactly, if i saw someone doing that, i would just abandon the idea of a 1rax expand and go 2gate robo expand, delaying the expansion but being significantly safer in the end
On November 17 2011 02:53 kcdc wrote: ... and against everything else, my build is significantly better.
and that's exactly what I am doubting
your build is somewhere in the middle. it isn't the best build against any of the terrans builds. but it's kinda OK against everything they can throw at you. I don't say it's a bad build, just that I don't see the point.
Of course you can't scout what the terran is doing, but I'd rather go for a specific build with an edge over something which is most likely to come from the terran based on map and spawn positions than doing your build.
in the video you linked the protoss does not go for a 1 gate expand like suggested here. it's with gateway, but without core (which is total bullshit btw if you dont scout anything).
I would just evacuate all probes to the main and hold the ramp with sentries and laugh at the terran? if he contains you, get a proxy pylon up somewhere and counterattack or a robo for warpprism or immortals. don't forget to collect your freewin after that.
On November 17 2011 02:53 kcdc wrote: ... and against everything else, my build is significantly better.
and that's exactly what I am doubting
your build is somewhere in the middle. it isn't the best build against any of the terrans builds. but it's kinda OK against everything they can throw at you. I don't say it's a bad build, just that I don't see the point.
Of course you can't scout what the terran is doing, but I'd rather go for a specific build with an edge over something which is most likely to come from the terran based on map and spawn positions than doing your build.
I don't get this comment. Although I don't necessarily agree with kcdc that his build is significantly better, I don't understand what you could possibly mean. Kcdc's build is a "greedy" 1 gate fe. What other builds would you suggest? Non 1 gate fe builds? Voidray allins? Even greedier 1 gate fes?
on bigger maps greedier 1 gate expos. for example only stalker and nexus before third pylon followed by 2 or 3 extra gates. on smaller maps the one with 1 zealot, 2 stalkers and then sentry. ST_Trickster uses this version almost exclusively, because it's really safe.
Talking about the Zealot/Stalker/Stalker vs Zealot/Stalker/Sentry could we not simply...just...well, chrono out a second stalker if we see him throw down a tech lab after his first marine? I'm not 100% sure how the timings line up, but you'll have the minerals and gas at that timing (it might delay your expo a bit, but that's worth it isn't it?)
Logic behind this from my PoV anyway: the tech lab 2 rax seems less scary to me, since there's less marines mixed in and marauders are easier to clean up in smaller numbers at that point in the game (imo, anyway) so it's worth delaying your expo to make that poke just that much less scary?
Correct me if I'm wrong, my Terran buddy isn't online atm to test this
(Might have to 9 scout to be sure he's going tech lab on bigger maps though? But isn't 9 vs 13 scout only a ~30 mineral difference anyway? It doesn't delay my cyber core anyway...just a case of delaying the second chrono to be after the gateway)
Thanks for the "update", very interesting, so many patches have been implemented, sometimes you are simply confused about what adaptation you need, and what is still valid and what is not, this type of work is very useful off course.
On November 17 2011 23:27 Rohan wrote: Talking about the Zealot/Stalker/Stalker vs Zealot/Stalker/Sentry could we not simply...just...well, chrono out a second stalker if we see him throw down a tech lab after his first marine? I'm not 100% sure how the timings line up, but you'll have the minerals and gas at that timing (it might delay your expo a bit, but that's worth it isn't it?)
Logic behind this from my PoV anyway: the tech lab 2 rax seems less scary to me, since there's less marines mixed in and marauders are easier to clean up in smaller numbers at that point in the game (imo, anyway) so it's worth delaying your expo to make that poke just that much less scary?
Correct me if I'm wrong, my Terran buddy isn't online atm to test this
(Might have to 9 scout to be sure he's going tech lab on bigger maps though? But isn't 9 vs 13 scout only a ~30 mineral difference anyway? It doesn't delay my cyber core anyway...just a case of delaying the second chrono to be after the gateway)
You can't reliably scout what addon he adds after the first marine.
On November 17 2011 23:27 Rohan wrote: Talking about the Zealot/Stalker/Stalker vs Zealot/Stalker/Sentry could we not simply...just...well, chrono out a second stalker if we see him throw down a tech lab after his first marine? I'm not 100% sure how the timings line up, but you'll have the minerals and gas at that timing (it might delay your expo a bit, but that's worth it isn't it?)
Logic behind this from my PoV anyway: the tech lab 2 rax seems less scary to me, since there's less marines mixed in and marauders are easier to clean up in smaller numbers at that point in the game (imo, anyway) so it's worth delaying your expo to make that poke just that much less scary?
Correct me if I'm wrong, my Terran buddy isn't online atm to test this
(Might have to 9 scout to be sure he's going tech lab on bigger maps though? But isn't 9 vs 13 scout only a ~30 mineral difference anyway? It doesn't delay my cyber core anyway...just a case of delaying the second chrono to be after the gateway)
and how do you plan on scouting the add-on after the first marine is out? sure if he lets you see it, you can make the right decision, but in most cases you won't be able to see it. that's why we discuss the pros and cons of this build against the different openings the terran CAN do.
On November 17 2011 22:53 WrathOfAiur wrote: on bigger maps greedier 1 gate expos. for example only stalker and nexus before third pylon followed by 2 or 3 extra gates. on smaller maps the one with 1 zealot, 2 stalkers and then sentry. ST_Trickster uses this version almost exclusively, because it's really safe.
The 20 or 22 food nexus expands need to cut probes for quite a while in order to be safe. I doubt that they're more economical than this build, but you can run a test. My goal with this build is to get the maximum possible economy while being safe against everything. If you know another build that's safe and gets more econ, please post it.
On November 17 2011 19:48 eastdragon wrote: So just out of curiosity, what would you do vs Debo's Marine Hellion Opening, which seems tailor made to counter a fast expanding Protoss...?
I almost died laughing when I watched that video, it was so ridiculous. It could have been a 5 minute video if he didn't spend 5 minutes talking about how "ballin" SCVs are, how he came up with this build in his "laboratory" and how "Helleons" defeat "Zeelots" so easily.
However, I think it does go to show how unsafe 1 Gate Fast Expands are. If the Terran is doing something "standard" you can hold it with good micro. But if the Terran does some kind of one base SCV all-in, I don't see how this holds. At best, your expansion dies and you are contained on one base, holding off the Terran with forcefields.
Nice guide kcdc, can you post more replays though? A lot of the stuff that you left "intentionally open" could be cool to see you do in action, meaning the different transitions and reads of course.
You guys should watch Axslav's stream if you're worried about marauders, he opens nexus first or 1gate fe vs T almost every game and early marauders are never ever a threat whatsoever. Even proxy rax marauders; just pull probes if you're missing chronoboost on your gate or don't trust your micro, marauders are actually quite bad vs probes.
*edit* that debo video is definitely one of the scariest builds when trying to fast expo vs T, especially if its the 4 hellion + marines drop with 1 medivack, I usually lose to that every time but I'm pretty bad so maybe it's just me
On November 17 2011 19:48 eastdragon wrote: So just out of curiosity, what would you do vs Debo's Marine Hellion Opening, which seems tailor made to counter a fast expanding Protoss...?
But that Terran build isn't actually strong for breaking the front. The Protoss just played crappy. He had exactly 2 stalkers at 7 min. I'd have something like 3z/4s/1s at the same time....so I'd be fine.
If they do a similar build but get the hellions into the main (factory float, medivac or run-by) while the marines hit the front, you have to micro well, but that's SC. If you don't want to micro to defend two bases, your alternative is to not expand.
On November 17 2011 22:53 WrathOfAiur wrote: on bigger maps greedier 1 gate expos. for example only stalker and nexus before third pylon followed by 2 or 3 extra gates. on smaller maps the one with 1 zealot, 2 stalkers and then sentry. ST_Trickster uses this version almost exclusively, because it's really safe.
The 20 or 22 food nexus expands need to cut probes for quite a while in order to be safe. I doubt that they're more economical than this build, but you can run a test. My goal with this build is to get the maximum possible economy while being safe against everything. If you know another build that's safe and gets more econ, please post it.
Instead of getting a sentry, get another zealot and don't mine the 100 gas. Now you have a faster nexus, a better poke at the Terran's ramp, and you're safer vs 2 rax.
Is that marine/helleon opener a joke? It's pretty overt, you know, skipping the first marine n all.
Anyway, I really like this KCDC, I now 1gate FE on all but the biggest maps, but I just wanted to share (maybe you can add your thoughts to it) that I do the poke at the front, but I don't go up the ramp. If you bring your stalker away from the ramp but near the ledge, you will get fired upon by the highground units. Just watch the shots and move back quickly. You will only take shield damage, you will see marauder shells if they have marauders, if they have concussive, and you will also see every unit on the high ground that fires on you too. Bunkers are revealed as well, so that's a way I get tech info. I guess you could also bring a probe, and if you're not fired upon you can send it up the ramp. From that point you can usually make a pretty good choice as whether to add some more gates or start the robo.
On November 17 2011 22:53 WrathOfAiur wrote: on bigger maps greedier 1 gate expos. for example only stalker and nexus before third pylon followed by 2 or 3 extra gates. on smaller maps the one with 1 zealot, 2 stalkers and then sentry. ST_Trickster uses this version almost exclusively, because it's really safe.
The 20 or 22 food nexus expands need to cut probes for quite a while in order to be safe. I doubt that they're more economical than this build, but you can run a test. My goal with this build is to get the maximum possible economy while being safe against everything. If you know another build that's safe and gets more econ, please post it.
Instead of getting a sentry, get another zealot and don't mine the 100 gas. Now you have a faster nexus, a better poke at the Terran's ramp, and you're safer vs 2 rax.
I like this lol...personally, I've always found the zealot stalker stalker nexus variation to be safest, because on the most part I do the pylon drop next to the rax to either delay the addon, OR ultimately scout there is no addon on the 2nd rax, allowing me to pressure a ton because of the delayed tech lab or just pressure immensely at the front because of the lack of addons...Of course if the terran was planning to go factory regardless, he would get a bunker most of the time, in which case you would have expoed...but definitely i can see the zealot stalker zealot working, just lighter pressure than the zealot stalker stalker variation.
I actually run the same thing except Nexus on 26 food (Nexus -> Pylon, instead of Pylon -> Nexus), and I grab 3 Stalkers on warp-in for a total of 4s, 1z, 1sentry.. differing slightly if I was able to scout a tech-lab first on the Barracks.
Mind if I ask why you take a Pylon before Nexus (considering you say you take a Nexus at 27 food)?
On November 17 2011 19:48 eastdragon wrote: So just out of curiosity, what would you do vs Debo's Marine Hellion Opening, which seems tailor made to counter a fast expanding Protoss...?
But that Terran build isn't actually strong for breaking the front. The Protoss just played crappy. He had exactly 2 stalkers at 7 min. I'd have something like 3z/4s/1s at the same time....so I'd be fine.
If they do a similar build but get the hellions into the main (factory float, medivac or run-by) while the marines hit the front, you have to micro well, but that's SC. If you don't want to micro to defend two bases, your alternative is to not expand.
indeed hilarious vid XD but yea that toss is really skimping on units, and his gates were seriously late....don't think that build is worth crap against a better toss
On November 17 2011 22:53 WrathOfAiur wrote: on bigger maps greedier 1 gate expos. for example only stalker and nexus before third pylon followed by 2 or 3 extra gates. on smaller maps the one with 1 zealot, 2 stalkers and then sentry. ST_Trickster uses this version almost exclusively, because it's really safe.
The 20 or 22 food nexus expands need to cut probes for quite a while in order to be safe. I doubt that they're more economical than this build, but you can run a test. My goal with this build is to get the maximum possible economy while being safe against everything. If you know another build that's safe and gets more econ, please post it.
Instead of getting a sentry, get another zealot and don't mine the 100 gas. Now you have a faster nexus, a better poke at the Terran's ramp, and you're safer vs 2 rax.
Are you talking about a 20 food 1 gate FE or a 27-30 food 1 gate FE?
On November 18 2011 04:14 SidewinderSC2 wrote: I actually run the same thing except Nexus on 26 food (Nexus -> Pylon, instead of Pylon -> Nexus), and I grab 3 Stalkers on warp-in for a total of 4s, 1z, 1sentry.. differing slightly if I was able to scout a tech-lab first on the Barracks.
Mind if I ask why you take a Pylon before Nexus (considering you say you take a Nexus at 27 food)?
I do it to avoid cutting probes. I haven't tested it much with the nexus before pylon, so I can't tell you for certain which is more economical. Nexus at 26/26 is 150 minerals faster than 27/34 and 200 minerals faster than 28/34, but obviously has 1 or 2 less probes at those times. Since the nexus will finish faster, you may be able to catch up on probe count. You'd have to run the builds side-by-side to see what the differences are. I'd guess that it's pretty close to even.
On November 18 2011 05:03 kcdc wrote:I do it to avoid cutting probes. I haven't tested it much with the nexus before pylon, so I can't tell you for certain which is more economical. Nexus at 26/26 is 150 minerals faster than 27/34 and 200 minerals faster than 28/34, but obviously has 1 or 2 less probes at those times. Since the nexus will finish faster, you may be able to catch up on probe count. You'd have to run the builds side-by-side to see what the differences are. I'd guess that it's pretty close to even.
On November 18 2011 05:03 kcdc wrote:I do it to avoid cutting probes. I haven't tested it much with the nexus before pylon, so I can't tell you for certain which is more economical. Nexus at 26/26 is 150 minerals faster than 27/34 and 200 minerals faster than 28/34, but obviously has 1 or 2 less probes at those times. Since the nexus will finish faster, you may be able to catch up on probe count. You'd have to run the builds side-by-side to see what the differences are. I'd guess that it's pretty close to even.
Agreed. Great thread.
Also, watching your video, you planted your nexus on 26/26 later than later than I do at 27/34. That's mostly because you messed up and started it at 550 minerals, but it's also partially because you wanted to deny the scouting SCV before you started your nexus. So if you value completing a stalker before starting your nexus, you might consider taking the pylon and an extra probe or two first.
One last tip: it's much safer to put the pylon on the high ground in your main proving power to the low ground. This does the same thing allowing you to warp into your natural, but it prevents the pylon from being sniped.
On November 18 2011 05:20 kcdc wrote: Also, watching your video, you planted your nexus on 26/26 before pylon later than later than I do at 27/34. That's mostly because you messed up and started it at 550 minerals, but it's also partially because you wanted to deny the scouting SCV before you started your nexus. So if you value completing a stalker before starting your nexus, you might consider taking the pylon and an extra probe or two first.
One last tip: it's much safer to put the pylon on the high ground in your main proving power to the low ground. This does the same thing allowing you to warp into your natural, but it prevents the pylon from being sniped.
Yeah, that's actually a great point. Sometimes I can actually kill the SCV with my first Zealot by some position blocking micro, so I usually get the Nexus down on time (or they just leave once they see my Stalker on the way). I suppose the adjustment could be that if I can't get that SCV with my Zealot, I can just drop it on 27 instead. Sometimes I'll just show them the Nexus and not care because of the opener they are running (gasless for example), so there's a lot of variables there.
That replay isn't ideal either (I was playing a Random player in that video), but I saw the HuK game from MLG, had a discussion about it on the battle.net forums and decided to put that video together based on games I played in the last couple of days since I don't save all of my replays.
And I agree about the pylon placement. I hadn't ever thought of it before and then had it sniped the other day when I was being careless. I just got into a habit of crushing 2rax pushes really hard so I didn't think much about the safety of it.
On November 18 2011 05:20 kcdc wrote: Also, watching your video, you planted your nexus on 26/26 before pylon later than later than I do at 27/34. That's mostly because you messed up and started it at 550 minerals, but it's also partially because you wanted to deny the scouting SCV before you started your nexus. So if you value completing a stalker before starting your nexus, you might consider taking the pylon and an extra probe or two first.
One last tip: it's much safer to put the pylon on the high ground in your main proving power to the low ground. This does the same thing allowing you to warp into your natural, but it prevents the pylon from being sniped.
Yeah, that's actually a great point. Sometimes I can actually kill the SCV with my first Zealot by some position blocking micro, so I usually get the Nexus down on time (or they just leave once they see my Stalker on the way). I suppose the adjustment could be that if I can't get that SCV with my Zealot, I can just drop it on 27 instead. Sometimes I'll just show them the Nexus and not care because of the opener they are running (gasless for example), so there's a lot of variables there.
That replay isn't ideal either (I was playing a Random player in that video), but I saw the HuK game from MLG, had a discussion about it on the battle.net forums and decided to put that video together based on games I played in the last couple of days since I don't save all of my replays.
And I agree about the pylon placement. I hadn't ever thought of it before and then had it sniped the other day when I was being careless. I just got into a habit of crushing 2rax pushes really hard so I didn't think much about the safety of it.
I don't think denying the scout is that valuable. They know you're on 1 gas, and they're pegging you on 1 gate FE anyway. My bigger concern would be having units out with enough time to kill an engineering bay block which can be a real issue with the 20 and 22 food 1 gate FE variants.
On November 18 2011 05:34 kcdc wrote:I don't think denying the scout is that valuable. They know you're on 1 gas, and they're pegging you on 1 gate FE anyway. My bigger concern would be having units out with enough time to kill an engineering bay block which can be a real issue with the 20 and 22 food 1 gate FE variants.
Again, it comes down to map, spawn locations, his build, what you know, etc. Tons of variables go into deciding to deny scouting. Sometimes it even comes down to personal preference. Personally, I think it's only worth doing if he is running a really risky build that could take a lot of damage from a simple 4gate timing, so he's not actually sure what I'm doing.
The Engineering Bay block actually is really hindering to any 1gate expand if you aren't paying enough attention. Ultimately it just comes down to being aware of it. He can't build it very well if there's a Zealot chasing him. I'm not that worried.
Overall, the build you and I essentially agree upon is better than the one posted on liquipedia (1 Stalker -> Nexus instead of 2 Stalkers), safer than 20 food expands or whatever.. I can't say enough good things about it and am shocked when I see such risky/poor 1gate FE's ran and people die with it, blaming 1gate FE. More specifically, 1 Stalker into Nexus is viable at literally every level, and is a very safe plus economically aggressive build.
Thx for sharing your 1gate fe variant kcdc (there has been another thread bumped up about different pvt 1gate fe versions lately and I was really hoping you would make a new thread about your new version soon :-)), especially since it's tailored around holding the 2 rax push. In your replay you only used 3 cb on your warpgate tech and chronoboosted your sentry once. Is this what your normally do?
Because with testing vs the ai I found out that if I follow your bo with the 2cb version on the nexus and you use all your cb perfectly on your warpgate tech (5 times in total) instead of using one cb on the sentry and 3 on the warpgate tech, that you get your warpgate tech rdy at 5:30min ingame time and can warp in this zealot already earlier. The cooldown on warpgates is shorter than producing units out of gateways is slightly shorter so I was wondering if that would not be more efficient.
A possible drawback could be your sentry coming out 10sec later (due to not using cb on it like in your replay) and getting your 2nd warpin on the first gate (which is your 2nd stalker produced in this game) also slightly later (20sec earlier warpgates but you need to wait for a zealot-warpgate-cooldown). On the positive side you would end up with a faster 2nd zealot and faster warpgates. I assume that you chose to not get that quick warpgate tech since you don't really end up getting more units out faster overall by doing this and since you need for your 2nd gate to finish anyways.
It would be nice if you could share your thoughts quick about this.
On November 18 2011 07:52 Fairwell wrote: Thx for sharing your 1gate fe variant kcdc (there has been another thread bumped up about different pvt 1gate fe versions lately and I was really hoping you would make a new thread about your new version soon :-)), especially since it's tailored around holding the 2 rax push. In your replay you only used 3 cb on your warpgate tech and chronoboosted your sentry once. Is this what your normally do?
Because with testing vs the ai I found out that if I follow your bo with the 2cb version on the nexus and you use all your cb perfectly on your warpgate tech (5 times in total) instead of using one cb on the sentry and 3 on the warpgate tech, that you get your warpgate tech rdy at 5:30min ingame time and can warp in this zealot already earlier. The cooldown on warpgates is shorter than producing units out of gateways is slightly shorter so I was wondering if that would not be more efficient.
A possible drawback could be your sentry coming out 10sec later (due to not using cb on it like in your replay) and getting your 2nd warpin on the first gate (which is your 2nd stalker produced in this game) also slightly later (20sec earlier warpgates but you need to wait for a zealot-warpgate-cooldown). On the positive side you would end up with a faster 2nd zealot and faster warpgates. I assume that you chose to not get that quick warpgate tech since you don't really end up getting more units out faster overall by doing this and since you need for your 2nd gate to finish anyways.
It would be nice if you could share your thoughts quick about this.
Honestly, I hadn't thought of doing that. It sounds like it would be difficult to execute because it's hard to chain 5 chronoboosts on WG tech perfectly. Having played PvP, I don't think a 5:30 warp-in is a realistic expectation for me in a game.....and I'm pretty sure it's not possible off of a 13-gate.
How do you respond with this build if your opponent goes 1 base marine marauder and hits you at around 8:30 with like 8-10 scvs pulled?
Photon canons? Its too early for colossus, so I just get overwhelmed. I can hold pretty easily if there are no scvs. But I just die at that point most games where I try this.
On November 18 2011 08:01 kcdc wrote: Honestly, I hadn't thought of doing that. It sounds like it would be difficult to execute because it's hard to chain 5 chronoboosts on WG tech perfectly. Having played PvP, I don't think a 5:30 warp-in is a realistic expectation for me in a game.....and I'm pretty sure it's not possible off of a 13-gate.
I've been doing the 11gate/3gate pressure build in pvp as of lately a lot and therefore being forced to practice using 5cb on warpgates nicely, vs the ai I managed like 5:28min, in a real game where you need to check for sneaky bunkers going up around your nexus vs a 2rax etc this will look different for sure. :-)
I did some runs vs the ai now and i found out that if you follow your bo perfectly vs the 2rax (that means 2cb on nexus, cut probes slightly to get up your 2nd gate in time at 27supply, then start sentry and then probe afterwards) and you use one cb each on the first sentry (like you do in your reply) and one on the zealot (which you did, but pretty late) the timing works out perfectly. I'll therefore stick to your version, it times out nicely and seems solid to me. I'm really not afraid of 1rax conc pushes, just of 2raxing. :-)
Sidenote: You should maybe fix the order in your guide where you wrote that you get a gate, then probe and then a sentry vs 2rax, while actually it times out perfectly if you get gate, then sentry and then get your next probe (like you also did vs Pokebunny). This is just a minor detail though, but maybe you can change the order in your guide and also add information about your cb usage (3times on wg, 1x sentry, 1x 2nd zealot).
If you happen to run into a terran doing the 2rax while grabbing 8-10scvs and you hold it nicely, could you upload a replay of this please? I would be really nice to see a good execution on how to use your probes and units in combination in that circumstance.
On November 18 2011 08:01 kcdc wrote: Honestly, I hadn't thought of doing that. It sounds like it would be difficult to execute because it's hard to chain 5 chronoboosts on WG tech perfectly. Having played PvP, I don't think a 5:30 warp-in is a realistic expectation for me in a game.....and I'm pretty sure it's not possible off of a 13-gate.
I've been doing the 11gate/3gate pressure build in pvp as of lately a lot and therefore being forced to practice using 5cb on warpgates nicely, vs the ai I managed like 5:28min, in a real game where you need to check for sneaky bunkers going up around your nexus vs a 2rax etc this will look different for sure. :-)
I did some runs vs the ai now and i found out that if you follow your bo perfectly vs the 2rax (that means 2cb on nexus, cut probes slightly to get up your 2nd gate in time at 27supply, then start sentry and then probe afterwards) and you use one cb each on the first sentry (like you do in your reply) and one on the zealot (which you did, but pretty late) the timing works out perfectly. I'll therefore stick to your version, it times out nicely and seems solid to me. I'm really not afraid of 1rax conc pushes, just of 2raxing. :-)
Sidenote: You should maybe fix the order in your guide where you wrote that you get a gate, then probe and then a sentry vs 2rax, while actually it times out perfectly if you get gate, then sentry and then get your next probe (like you also did vs Pokebunny). This is just a minor detail though, but maybe you can change the order in your guide and also add information about your cb usage (3times on wg, 1x sentry, 1x 2nd zealot).
If you happen to run into a terran doing the 2rax while grabbing 8-10scvs and you hold it nicely, could you upload a replay of this please? I would be really nice to see a good execution on how to use your probes and units in combination in that circumstance.
Good comment. I don't think I've ever run into that many SCVs pulled with a 2 rax, but I'll let you know if I do.
I actually do get the probe before sentry usually, although in that game, I knew he was 2 raxing, so I might have gone sentry first. The difference in order is only 5 game seconds, so it's not much different either way.
On November 18 2011 08:19 Necrophantasia wrote: How do you respond with this build if your opponent goes 1 base marine marauder and hits you at around 8:30 with like 8-10 scvs pulled?
Photon canons? Its too early for colossus, so I just get overwhelmed. I can hold pretty easily if there are no scvs. But I just die at that point most games where I try this.
I don't remember running into that, but I imagine I'd just hold back as long as I can to maximize my unit count and pull probes when I feel forced to fight. This sounds like one of those problems you'd have with any 1 gate FE.
On November 18 2011 12:32 QTIP. wrote: At what point due you decide to get a Robo if you you don't see a 2nd rax go down, but know that they are collecting gas?
In other words, at what point do you get the Robo when you don't know if 2-rax is going to hit you, or Cloaked banshee is going to hit you?
I would like to know the answer to this too. Do I go up to three gates and then add a robo? What is the immediate transition after maynarding the probes?
On November 18 2011 12:32 QTIP. wrote: At what point due you decide to get a Robo if you you don't see a 2nd rax go down, but know that they are collecting gas?
In other words, at what point do you get the Robo when you don't know if 2-rax is going to hit you, or Cloaked banshee is going to hit you?
I would like to know the answer to this too. Do I go up to three gates and then add a robo? What is the immediate transition after maynarding the probes?
The robo+3gate+gas timing is basically cut at ~30 probes or so and drop everything unless you can otherwise confirm that he's going for bio. You can drop double forges here, but I personally hesitate to do that unless I see a marauder. Basically, whatever midgame you want to transition into do so around 30 to 40 supply.
I really like how versatile this is. If I safely get a robo up after 2 gates, I can go for colossus a full 30 seconds to a minute faster than I usually do after 1 gate FE -> 3 gates -> robo. On the other hand, I can also throw down 2 gates right after my first warp-ins to hold aggression or be aggressive myself.
Do you ever vary what units you make initially? For instance, changing the double stalker warp in to zealots if he's attacking with more marauders? Or warping in sentries instead?
I find this build a bit inefficient. What is the use for the early zealot if you don't intend to poke?? It has absolutely no scouting / anti-scouting use. It only means you get the nexus up later and your 2nd / 3rd gate up later. Idling the gateway first and getting stalker first into faster extra gates is better imo. You get your nexus up much faster and you'll have the same amount of units when warpgate finishes. Zealot first is spending money into a unit that you don't need untill they push anyway. Any threatening push has a marauder anyway and thus will come quite late, just delay that zealot and get your nexus and extra gateways faster instead, it's much better imo.
The only times I like the zealot first is when the map is really small and there is some value in a zealot/stalker poke. At the moment that is only the case with xel naga and then I only do a zealot+stalker poke if they are not walling in. If they do wall in I go for a quick robo + immortal build to get some free depot kills on his walls (which I feel is worth delaying the expo a bit).
the zealot is useful against the 1 marine 2 marauder poke. and he said he wants to be kinda safe against everything, so that should be the answer you are looking for.
On November 18 2011 20:50 WrathOfAiur wrote: the zealot is useful against the 1 marine 2 marauder poke. and he said he wants to be kinda safe against everything, so that should be the answer you are looking for.
that is rare these days and easy to scout. If terran opts for pressure it's 90% of the time a reactor first opening. If they open tech lab after rine you can easily adjust the build. On bigger maps you don't even really need to. In general it just doesn't make sense to get that zealot. If your mindset is to expand no matter what they do basically, then you should expand as fast as possible. Getting the nexus up faster works out much smoother imo because: - you can get it before the third pylon without getting some awkward supply block or probe cut, zealot first either delays the nexus till after the third pylon (thus 200 minerals later) or causes some supply block - faster nexus means the nexus finishes earlier, in fact just about the same time as warpgate finishes. This means you don't need that 4th pylon against pressure saving you 100 minerals. With a nexus just a bit later this timing can get awkward and you thus need to spend 100 on the 4th pylon. - faster nexus gives some extra energy which is useful when you need to chrono your gates against 2 rax pressure. Faster nexus also means it's finished faster meaning it has more hitpoints in the case of fast pressure.
Ofcourse faster nexus has the disadvantage that your window for canceling it in case of some weird all-in is smaller but we probe scout for that anyway.
On November 18 2011 20:50 WrathOfAiur wrote: the zealot is useful against the 1 marine 2 marauder poke. and he said he wants to be kinda safe against everything, so that should be the answer you are looking for.
that is rare these days and easy to scout. If terran opts for pressure it's 90% of the time a reactor first opening. If they open tech lab after rine you can easily adjust the build.
you can't scout it. and even if you happen to scout it, you can't magically warp in the zealot afterwards, because your gate will be busy with producing the other units.
the rest you said is totally irrelevant for the decision why you would want a zealot with this build (Although I don't disagree with you completely). the answer is simple. and I might add, that you can kill of ebays quicker if they decide to block your nexus.
On November 18 2011 20:50 WrathOfAiur wrote: the zealot is useful against the 1 marine 2 marauder poke. and he said he wants to be kinda safe against everything, so that should be the answer you are looking for.
that is rare these days and easy to scout. If terran opts for pressure it's 90% of the time a reactor first opening. If they open tech lab after rine you can easily adjust the build.
you can't scout it. and even if you happen to scout it, you can't magically warp in the zealot afterwards, because your gate will be busy with producing the other units.
the rest you said is totally irrelevant for the decision why you would want a zealot with this build (Although I don't disagree with you completely). the answer is simple. and I might add, that you can kill of ebays quicker if they decide to block your nexus.
you can quee up the zealot and cancel it if they don't go techlab. And it's easy to scout.. you know where their first rax is and even if they have walled off you can see if they get tech lab after the marine or not. And the rest is relevant, zealot has a huge impact on the nexus timing because of the third pylon. A huk style FE gets the nexus about 40 seconds faster, which is a huge plus and it is just as safe against reactor first pressure since that comes around the time warpgate finishes anyway.. It is less safe against other stuff like tech lab first, or no gas marine all-in etc. but you should be able to scout for those in time with a 13-scout. The only 'use' of that first zealot is a zealot stalker poke imo but that tends to be quite useless these days, either the map is too big so poking with zealot takes too long or they tend to wall off.
On November 18 2011 21:35 Markwerf wrote: And it's easy to scout.. you know where their first rax is and even if they have walled off you can see if they get tech lab after the marine or not.
????????
how can you see that? if the marine is microed correctly you won't see anything.
On November 18 2011 21:35 Markwerf wrote: And it's easy to scout.. you know where their first rax is and even if they have walled off you can see if they get tech lab after the marine or not.
????????
how can you see that? if the marine is microed correctly you won't see anything.
are you joking?? your probe is sitting next to the rax when the marine comes out? you know perfectly well if they get techlab or reactor... if they delay the techlab or cancel the reactor then you can't see but then their build is slowed down enough for it not to matter really.
On November 18 2011 21:35 Markwerf wrote: And it's easy to scout.. you know where their first rax is and even if they have walled off you can see if they get tech lab after the marine or not.
????????
how can you see that? if the marine is microed correctly you won't see anything.
are you joking?? your probe is sitting next to the rax when the marine comes out? you know perfectly well if they get techlab or reactor... if they delay the techlab or cancel the reactor then you can't see but then their build is slowed down enough for it not to matter really.
This is completely unrealistic. You will lose your probe if you try to dely the addon by more than 2 seconds.
On November 18 2011 20:50 WrathOfAiur wrote: the zealot is useful against the 1 marine 2 marauder poke. and he said he wants to be kinda safe against everything, so that should be the answer you are looking for.
that is rare these days and easy to scout. If terran opts for pressure it's 90% of the time a reactor first opening. If they open tech lab after rine you can easily adjust the build.
you can't scout it. and even if you happen to scout it, you can't magically warp in the zealot afterwards, because your gate will be busy with producing the other units.
the rest you said is totally irrelevant for the decision why you would want a zealot with this build (Although I don't disagree with you completely). the answer is simple. and I might add, that you can kill of ebays quicker if they decide to block your nexus.
you can quee up the zealot and cancel it if they don't go techlab. And it's easy to scout.. you know where their first rax is and even if they have walled off you can see if they get tech lab after the marine or not. And the rest is relevant, zealot has a huge impact on the nexus timing because of the third pylon. A huk style FE gets the nexus about 40 seconds faster, which is a huge plus and it is just as safe against reactor first pressure since that comes around the time warpgate finishes anyway.. It is less safe against other stuff like tech lab first, or no gas marine all-in etc. but you should be able to scout for those in time with a 13-scout. The only 'use' of that first zealot is a zealot stalker poke imo but that tends to be quite useless these days, either the map is too big so poking with zealot takes too long or they tend to wall off.
Unless the map is really big (oh hello calm before the storm) a terran can do significant damage if no zealot is build, which is nigh guaranteed to be scouted by terran. Don't forget- not making that zealot leaves you weaker up to past your first warpin; and 1 zealot makes all the difference in the world against marauders.
On November 18 2011 12:32 QTIP. wrote: At what point due you decide to get a Robo if you you don't see a 2nd rax go down, but know that they are collecting gas?
In other words, at what point do you get the Robo when you don't know if 2-rax is going to hit you, or Cloaked banshee is going to hit you?
I do try to get as much scouting info as I can. You don't see it in that replay because I knew he was going reactor 2-rax, but I'm active with my scouting probe after it's forced out by the marine. I'll move around below the ramp trying to get a marine count and to see if there's a marauder or a bunker, I hold a watch tower to see if there's an early push coming, and I'll move the watch tower probe up to his natural to see if he's expanding or leaving his base.
Long story short, I try to get as much information as I can (including what would make sense from T given the map and positions), and then I play it by feel after 30 food.
If I feel comfortable that T is going for a quick expansion, I might take a robo and a gas after my first 2 gates to rush colossi and upgrades. If I'm not sure at all what he's doing, I'll get the third gate and then the robo early enough to get an obs for cloaked banshees. I think you need to start the robo by like 6:30 at the latest to deal with cloak, and by that time, any normal bio push should have been seen by your scout probe at the tower or T's nat.
Also, you can defend bio pushes with 2 gate robo, but you need to constantly produce units out of those gates, which people rarely do.
On November 18 2011 20:50 WrathOfAiur wrote: the zealot is useful against the 1 marine 2 marauder poke. and he said he wants to be kinda safe against everything, so that should be the answer you are looking for.
that is rare these days and easy to scout. If terran opts for pressure it's 90% of the time a reactor first opening. If they open tech lab after rine you can easily adjust the build. On bigger maps you don't even really need to. In general it just doesn't make sense to get that zealot. If your mindset is to expand no matter what they do basically, then you should expand as fast as possible. Getting the nexus up faster works out much smoother imo because: - you can get it before the third pylon without getting some awkward supply block or probe cut, zealot first either delays the nexus till after the third pylon (thus 200 minerals later) or causes some supply block - faster nexus means the nexus finishes earlier, in fact just about the same time as warpgate finishes. This means you don't need that 4th pylon against pressure saving you 100 minerals. With a nexus just a bit later this timing can get awkward and you thus need to spend 100 on the 4th pylon. - faster nexus gives some extra energy which is useful when you need to chrono your gates against 2 rax pressure. Faster nexus also means it's finished faster meaning it has more hitpoints in the case of fast pressure.
Ofcourse faster nexus has the disadvantage that your window for canceling it in case of some weird all-in is smaller but we probe scout for that anyway.
Others have said this already, but to reiterate, if you don't get the zealot, you can die to marauder pressure pretty easily, and you'll get delayed substantially by an ebay block. And no, you can't scout marauder pressure before it's too late. T just has to chase your scout probe out and then park his marine at the bottom of the ramp and you'll never see the tech lab.
The 20 and 22 food expansions are safe-ish, but require a ton of probe cutting, so the earlier nexus isn't as economical as it seems.
On November 18 2011 12:32 QTIP. wrote: At what point due you decide to get a Robo if you you don't see a 2nd rax go down, but know that they are collecting gas?
In other words, at what point do you get the Robo when you don't know if 2-rax is going to hit you, or Cloaked banshee is going to hit you?
I do try to get as much scouting info as I can. You don't see it in that replay because I knew he was going reactor 2-rax, but I'm active with my scouting probe after it's forced out by the marine. I'll move around below the ramp trying to get a marine count and to see if there's a marauder or a bunker, I hold a watch tower to see if there's an early push coming, and I'll move the watch tower probe up to his natural to see if he's expanding or leaving his base.
Long story short, I try to get as much information as I can (including what would make sense from T given the map and positions), and then I play it by feel after 30 food.
If I feel comfortable that T is going for a quick expansion, I might take a robo and a gas after my first 2 gates to rush colossi and upgrades. If I'm not sure at all what he's doing, I'll get the third gate and then the robo early enough to get an obs for cloaked banshees. I think you need to start the robo by like 6:30 at the latest to deal with cloak, and by that time, any normal bio push should have been seen by your scout probe at the tower or T's nat.
Also, you can defend bio pushes with 2 gate robo, but you need to constantly produce units out of those gates, which people rarely do.
robo needs to be started by 5:55 with obs started instantly with 1 chrono to get it out by 7:30 (normal cloak bancheese time).
The issue with 1g nexus 2g robo is you can't constantly produce out of the 2 gateways unless you cut probes. You can if you don't have to build the robo and observer (saves you 225 minerals 175 gas) but it's difficult to say they aren't going cloak if they delay their 2rax push a little.
On November 18 2011 12:32 QTIP. wrote: At what point due you decide to get a Robo if you you don't see a 2nd rax go down, but know that they are collecting gas?
In other words, at what point do you get the Robo when you don't know if 2-rax is going to hit you, or Cloaked banshee is going to hit you?
I do try to get as much scouting info as I can. You don't see it in that replay because I knew he was going reactor 2-rax, but I'm active with my scouting probe after it's forced out by the marine. I'll move around below the ramp trying to get a marine count and to see if there's a marauder or a bunker, I hold a watch tower to see if there's an early push coming, and I'll move the watch tower probe up to his natural to see if he's expanding or leaving his base.
Long story short, I try to get as much information as I can (including what would make sense from T given the map and positions), and then I play it by feel after 30 food.
If I feel comfortable that T is going for a quick expansion, I might take a robo and a gas after my first 2 gates to rush colossi and upgrades. If I'm not sure at all what he's doing, I'll get the third gate and then the robo early enough to get an obs for cloaked banshees. I think you need to start the robo by like 6:30 at the latest to deal with cloak, and by that time, any normal bio push should have been seen by your scout probe at the tower or T's nat.
Also, you can defend bio pushes with 2 gate robo, but you need to constantly produce units out of those gates, which people rarely do.
Yeah, I knew from your replay that you wouldn't have to worry about cloaked banshee unless PokeBunny went super tricky and cancelled the 2nd rax.
Though I'm not quite good enough to play PokeBunny, many Terrans I play will wall off with 3 Supply depots (with a bunker behind), or 2 Depots with a bunker. Marauders are kept in the back and the Marines in the bunker give the illusion of a tech-based build. However, they simply salvage the bunker move out with a 2-rax timing and can punish 1 Gate FE's that add a Robo too quickly.
Of course, others will have that bunker because they are actually teching to Banshee, and producing an early Robo would be the correct choice.
It turns into a guessing game here, and I suppose there is no guaranteed way to make the correct choice, but instead you must play the probabilities based on persistent scouting.
On November 18 2011 21:35 Markwerf wrote: And it's easy to scout.. you know where their first rax is and even if they have walled off you can see if they get tech lab after the marine or not.
????????
how can you see that? if the marine is microed correctly you won't see anything.
are you joking?? your probe is sitting next to the rax when the marine comes out? you know perfectly well if they get techlab or reactor... if they delay the techlab or cancel the reactor then you can't see but then their build is slowed down enough for it not to matter really.
This is completely unrealistic. You will lose your probe if you try to dely the addon by more than 2 seconds.
Can you build a pylon to block the addon and cancel it once you do/don't see them lift their rax?
I hope that nobody argues that you popularized the 1 gate FE.
Have you tried the nexus first? I'm doing that on larger maps now and 3 gate expand on smaller ones. I want to try that 2 gas 1 gate expand on smaller maps because I think the major factor is sentries. How do you feel about this?
On November 19 2011 01:17 Fuhrmaaj wrote: I hope that nobody argues that you popularized the 1 gate FE.
Have you tried the nexus first? I'm doing that on larger maps now and 3 gate expand on smaller ones. I want to try that 2 gas 1 gate expand on smaller maps because I think the major factor is sentries. How do you feel about this?
This seems really counterintuitive, on smaller maps where earlier pressure is stronger, the sentries are going to be less useful in earlier engagements. Two gas expand allows for a stronger midgame army with a good sentry count, but a 1 gas expand can deal much better with something like a 2 rax aggression or a marauder conc shell rush.
On November 18 2011 12:32 QTIP. wrote: At what point due you decide to get a Robo if you you don't see a 2nd rax go down, but know that they are collecting gas?
In other words, at what point do you get the Robo when you don't know if 2-rax is going to hit you, or Cloaked banshee is going to hit you?
I do try to get as much scouting info as I can. You don't see it in that replay because I knew he was going reactor 2-rax, but I'm active with my scouting probe after it's forced out by the marine. I'll move around below the ramp trying to get a marine count and to see if there's a marauder or a bunker, I hold a watch tower to see if there's an early push coming, and I'll move the watch tower probe up to his natural to see if he's expanding or leaving his base.
Long story short, I try to get as much information as I can (including what would make sense from T given the map and positions), and then I play it by feel after 30 food.
If I feel comfortable that T is going for a quick expansion, I might take a robo and a gas after my first 2 gates to rush colossi and upgrades. If I'm not sure at all what he's doing, I'll get the third gate and then the robo early enough to get an obs for cloaked banshees. I think you need to start the robo by like 6:30 at the latest to deal with cloak, and by that time, any normal bio push should have been seen by your scout probe at the tower or T's nat.
Also, you can defend bio pushes with 2 gate robo, but you need to constantly produce units out of those gates, which people rarely do.
Yeah, I knew from your replay that you wouldn't have to worry about cloaked banshee unless PokeBunny went super tricky and cancelled the 2nd rax.
Though I'm not quite good enough to play PokeBunny, many Terrans I play will wall off with 3 Supply depots (with a bunker behind), or 2 Depots with a bunker. Marauders are kept in the back and the Marines in the bunker give the illusion of a tech-based build. However, they simply salvage the bunker move out with a 2-rax timing and can punish 1 Gate FE's that add a Robo too quickly.
Of course, others will have that bunker because they are actually teching to Banshee, and producing an early Robo would be the correct choice.
It turns into a guessing game here, and I suppose there is no guaranteed way to make the correct choice, but instead you must play the probabilities based on persistent scouting.
When does 2-rax leave T's base? 5:30ish? These are things I should probably know, but like I said, I really play this MU by feel after my opening which probably isn't for the best.
Anyway, if it's 5:30, then you can sac a probe up T's ramp at 5:40, and if there's no push coming, you can reactively take an early robo.
I remember losing once to a Terran that took no gas for my scout probe, bunkered his natural to fake no-gas expand, and then proxied 2-port cloaked banshees, so there are ways to metagame anything P can do, but this opening seems to work well against the normal stuff.
On November 18 2011 20:50 WrathOfAiur wrote: the zealot is useful against the 1 marine 2 marauder poke. and he said he wants to be kinda safe against everything, so that should be the answer you are looking for.
that is rare these days and easy to scout. If terran opts for pressure it's 90% of the time a reactor first opening. If they open tech lab after rine you can easily adjust the build. On bigger maps you don't even really need to. In general it just doesn't make sense to get that zealot. If your mindset is to expand no matter what they do basically, then you should expand as fast as possible. Getting the nexus up faster works out much smoother imo because: - you can get it before the third pylon without getting some awkward supply block or probe cut, zealot first either delays the nexus till after the third pylon (thus 200 minerals later) or causes some supply block - faster nexus means the nexus finishes earlier, in fact just about the same time as warpgate finishes. This means you don't need that 4th pylon against pressure saving you 100 minerals. With a nexus just a bit later this timing can get awkward and you thus need to spend 100 on the 4th pylon. - faster nexus gives some extra energy which is useful when you need to chrono your gates against 2 rax pressure. Faster nexus also means it's finished faster meaning it has more hitpoints in the case of fast pressure.
Ofcourse faster nexus has the disadvantage that your window for canceling it in case of some weird all-in is smaller but we probe scout for that anyway.
Others have said this already, but to reiterate, if you don't get the zealot, you can die to marauder pressure pretty easily, and you'll get delayed substantially by an ebay block. And no, you can't scout marauder pressure before it's too late. T just has to chase your scout probe out and then park his marine at the bottom of the ramp and you'll never see the tech lab.
The 20 and 22 food expansions are safe-ish, but require a ton of probe cutting, so the earlier nexus isn't as economical as it seems.
An ebay block is rare and not really a problem. You simply quee the zealot and if they block you can let the zealot finish. Not many terran builds can easily ebay block though so it will happen in very few cases, especially as queeing up a zealot won't really give them a clue that your about to expand that fast. 1 rax techlab first marauder pressure is not too much of a problem imo in the current map pool, just try to prevent an early bunker from getting up and kill the pressure with your first warp in round. Ofcourse 20 nexus expanding is not so great on maps like xel naga or close air metalopolis but any other map i vastly prefer it over zealot first into nexus. It simply makes more sense to get nexus and 2nd+3rd gateway faster, by the time most pushes come you'll have exactly the same amount of units but your nexus was up much faster. Except proxies I don't see how terran can break 20 nexus on most of the current map pool. On the smaller maps zealot first into potential poking is fine but I'd rather play quick robo then.
On November 18 2011 12:32 QTIP. wrote: At what point due you decide to get a Robo if you you don't see a 2nd rax go down, but know that they are collecting gas?
In other words, at what point do you get the Robo when you don't know if 2-rax is going to hit you, or Cloaked banshee is going to hit you?
I do try to get as much scouting info as I can. You don't see it in that replay because I knew he was going reactor 2-rax, but I'm active with my scouting probe after it's forced out by the marine. I'll move around below the ramp trying to get a marine count and to see if there's a marauder or a bunker, I hold a watch tower to see if there's an early push coming, and I'll move the watch tower probe up to his natural to see if he's expanding or leaving his base.
Long story short, I try to get as much information as I can (including what would make sense from T given the map and positions), and then I play it by feel after 30 food.
If I feel comfortable that T is going for a quick expansion, I might take a robo and a gas after my first 2 gates to rush colossi and upgrades. If I'm not sure at all what he's doing, I'll get the third gate and then the robo early enough to get an obs for cloaked banshees. I think you need to start the robo by like 6:30 at the latest to deal with cloak, and by that time, any normal bio push should have been seen by your scout probe at the tower or T's nat.
Also, you can defend bio pushes with 2 gate robo, but you need to constantly produce units out of those gates, which people rarely do.
Yeah, I knew from your replay that you wouldn't have to worry about cloaked banshee unless PokeBunny went super tricky and cancelled the 2nd rax.
Though I'm not quite good enough to play PokeBunny, many Terrans I play will wall off with 3 Supply depots (with a bunker behind), or 2 Depots with a bunker. Marauders are kept in the back and the Marines in the bunker give the illusion of a tech-based build. However, they simply salvage the bunker move out with a 2-rax timing and can punish 1 Gate FE's that add a Robo too quickly.
Of course, others will have that bunker because they are actually teching to Banshee, and producing an early Robo would be the correct choice.
It turns into a guessing game here, and I suppose there is no guaranteed way to make the correct choice, but instead you must play the probabilities based on persistent scouting.
When does 2-rax leave T's base? 5:30ish? These are things I should probably know, but like I said, I really play this MU by feel after my opening which probably isn't for the best.
Anyway, if it's 5:30, then you can sac a probe up T's ramp at 5:40, and if there's no push coming, you can reactively take an early robo.
I remember losing once to a Terran that took no gas for my scout probe, bunkered his natural to fake no-gas expand, and then proxied 2-port cloaked banshees, so there are ways to metagame anything P can do, but this opening seems to work well against the normal stuff.
Yeah - that's what I figured. I have no problem playing the probabilities, I'm just looking for any edge I can get.
On November 19 2011 02:19 kcdc wrote: I remember losing once to a Terran that took no gas for my scout probe, bunkered his natural to fake no-gas expand, and then proxied 2-port cloaked banshees, so there are ways to metagame anything P can do, but this opening seems to work well against the normal stuff.
On the last day of the groupstages in NASL2 TLO did this vs TT1 in game3 on Antiga Shipyard. Things like these can always happen, but it's kinda rare. However, no matter which 1gate fe version you choose, this issue remains.
On November 19 2011 02:19 kcdc wrote: I remember losing once to a Terran that took no gas for my scout probe, bunkered his natural to fake no-gas expand, and then proxied 2-port cloaked banshees, so there are ways to metagame anything P can do, but this opening seems to work well against the normal stuff.
On the last day of the groupstages in NASL2 TLO did this vs TT1 in game3 on Antiga Shipyard. Things like these can always happen, but it's kinda rare. However, no matter which 1gate fe version you choose, this issue remains.
Yeah, I think I delayed robo that game for double upgrades or something. If a build is 100% safe against every possible opening (2-gate robo with fast obs before expansion), it's probably not greedy enough to keep up into mid-game.
Thanks for sharing with this build it's awesome appart from one situation: Marine rush.
I am in a Bronze league. I've played recently against a Terran who pushed at 5th minute. He learned his BO very well executing it in every game. I looked at his Match History and every game he won the game did not last more than 6 min. I am sure he repeates this in every match.
Basically, the thing is he comes with 7 marines. At about 5:15 he's at natural when position is close on big maps. Others Marines (usually three due to 3 rax) are on the way. At that time we can have only 1Z 1St 1S exewcuting this build. I don't think it can be held with this build or any other if C.C is after GW. What do you think? Thanks
I just tested this in the unit trainer, I can win that battle while only losing my zealot, or zealot and sentry, and I don't have to do any stutter step for it either. If you keep the stalker alive, you can then do stutter step micro and whittle down their marines without taking damage, just make sure to keep your stalker alive and you'll be fine. Your reinforcements will help more than his will, 3 stalkers with some micro can really put the hurt on marines not inside a bunker. And you don't mind if your exp nexus take a few hits, its got like 1500hp or something....
On November 19 2011 04:37 ZikO wrote: kcdc,
Thanks for sharing with this build it's awesome appart from one situation: Marine rush.
I am in a Bronze league. I've played recently against a Terran who pushed at 5th minute. He learned his BO very well executing it in every game. I looked at his Match History and every game he won the game did not last more than 6 min. I am sure he repeates this in every match.
Basically, the thing is he comes with 7 marines. At about 5:15 he's at natural when position is close on big maps. Others Marines (usually three due to 3 rax) are on the way. At that time we can have only 1Z 1St 1S exewcuting this build. I don't think it can be held with this build or any other if C.C is after GW. What do you think? Thanks
Thanks a lot kcdc, this has changed my whole matchup now!! The only thing I think I'm really going to have to keep in mind is a robo bay at 5:30 for banshees if I don't see marauders - I wish SC2 showed a time in game!
Thanks for sharing with this build it's awesome appart from one situation: Marine rush.
I am in a Bronze league. I've played recently against a Terran who pushed at 5th minute. He learned his BO very well executing it in every game. I looked at his Match History and every game he won the game did not last more than 6 min. I am sure he repeates this in every match.
Basically, the thing is he comes with 7 marines. At about 5:15 he's at natural when position is close on big maps. Others Marines (usually three due to 3 rax) are on the way. At that time we can have only 1Z 1St 1S exewcuting this build. I don't think it can be held with this build or any other if C.C is after GW. What do you think? Thanks
There's a high master/GM Terran with ID Matty that does a marine+SCV timing (I'd call it an all-in, but he leaves a MULE) quite often. My advice is pretty simple: don't expand against cheese.
If T goes for a fast 2-rax without gas, you need to respond.
On November 19 2011 05:13 matrius wrote: Thanks a lot kcdc, this has changed my whole matchup now!! The only thing I think I'm really going to have to keep in mind is a robo bay at 5:30 for banshees if I don't see marauders - I wish SC2 showed a time in game!
Thanks again!
And do I ever have a treat for you: I've enabled an in-game clock that you can toggle on in your SC2 menu options! Other players may get jealous, so don't tell!
On November 19 2011 05:13 matrius wrote: Thanks a lot kcdc, this has changed my whole matchup now!! The only thing I think I'm really going to have to keep in mind is a robo bay at 5:30 for banshees if I don't see marauders - I wish SC2 showed a time in game!
Thanks again!
And do I ever have a treat for you: I've enabled an in-game clock that you can toggle on in your SC2 menu options! Other players may get jealous, so don't tell!
There's a high master/GM Terran with ID Matty that does a marine+SCV timing (I'd call it an all-in, but he leaves a MULE) quite often. My advice is pretty simple: don't expand against cheese.
If T goes for a fast 2-rax without gas, you need to respond.
how are you scouting that cheese? with a 1 gate expo build.
On November 19 2011 05:13 matrius wrote: Thanks a lot kcdc, this has changed my whole matchup now!! The only thing I think I'm really going to have to keep in mind is a robo bay at 5:30 for banshees if I don't see marauders - I wish SC2 showed a time in game!
Thanks again!
And do I ever have a treat for you: I've enabled an in-game clock that you can toggle on in your SC2 menu options! Other players may get jealous, so don't tell!
wtf, they have that?
Blizzard patched this option into the game several months ago already, I'm quite surprised people still don't know this.
just how do you get the nexus down to 4:25!? ive been following the build exactly up to that point but i always seem to get my nexus between 4:30 and 4:35 (2 chrono on nexus) but in your replay it goes down at 4:25, the only thing i can think of is maybe the probe split and keeping probes on close patches, but i dont see anything else that would make a difference, just how much of a difference does that close patch mining mineral trick make
Hmmm, I dont realize why this would be better than 1g expand --> 3gates. You will only get 2gates with this and you will have to add more gates pretty soon anyways. Also 3gates allows you to be more reactive to what Terran does. I usually do expand at 27 supply too when I transition to 3gates so it won't help me to get it earlier.
On November 23 2011 03:49 Welmu wrote: Hmmm, I dont realize why this would be better than 1g expand --> 3gates. You will only get 2gates with this and you will have to add more gates pretty soon anyways. Also 3gates allows you to be more reactive to what Terran does. I usually do expand at 27 supply too when I transition to 3gates so it won't help me to get it earlier.
you are completely free to add more gates as you wish, personally i just go double forge w/it and go up to 8gates w/ chargelot archon 2/2 push...trying to work a robo in there though TT
On November 23 2011 03:49 Welmu wrote: Hmmm, I dont realize why this would be better than 1g expand --> 3gates. You will only get 2gates with this and you will have to add more gates pretty soon anyways. Also 3gates allows you to be more reactive to what Terran does. I usually do expand at 27 supply too when I transition to 3gates so it won't help me to get it earlier.
He gets 3 gates, just staggers the 2nd and 3rd gates a bit.
On November 23 2011 03:49 Welmu wrote: Hmmm, I dont realize why this would be better than 1g expand --> 3gates. You will only get 2gates with this and you will have to add more gates pretty soon anyways. Also 3gates allows you to be more reactive to what Terran does. I usually do expand at 27 supply too when I transition to 3gates so it won't help me to get it earlier.
He gets 3 gates, just staggers the 2nd and 3rd gates a bit.
Ah okey, I didn't find anything about 3rd gateway in OP >_<
I've actually been experimenting with staying on 2 gates+robo and (going zealot/sentry/immortal) while I add assimilators and a forge. Then I get more gates/support bay/third base in some order depending on map and how greedy I think I can be. You'll be surprised how low your money stays if you just constantly produce from 2 gates+robo.
On November 23 2011 03:46 unit wrote: just how do you get the nexus down to 4:25!? ive been following the build exactly up to that point but i always seem to get my nexus between 4:30 and 4:35 (2 chrono on nexus) but in your replay it goes down at 4:25, the only thing i can think of is maybe the probe split and keeping probes on close patches, but i dont see anything else that would make a difference, just how much of a difference does that close patch mining mineral trick make
The trick is that I'm a badass.
Mmmmmm, no, that's not it. It's probe micro. XNC is the fastest map to mine on too.
On November 23 2011 03:49 Welmu wrote: Hmmm, I dont realize why this would be better than 1g expand --> 3gates. You will only get 2gates with this and you will have to add more gates pretty soon anyways. Also 3gates allows you to be more reactive to what Terran does. I usually do expand at 27 supply too when I transition to 3gates so it won't help me to get it earlier.
My idea with this opening is to optimize unit/building production to get as many units as possible at standard bio timings with maximum economy (faster nexus, more probes). Getting an early sentry also gives you more energy accumulation.
If you go zealot-stalker-nexus-stalker, you have less 75 minerals for probes/gateways than zealot-stalker-nexus-sentry, and the stalker's longer build time means you'll need to use more chronoboost to get a fourth unit done before WG tech finishes. You'll need to cut a probe to get your 2nd gate finished by 6 minutes, and you'll need to cut more probes if you want 3 gates finished near that timing.
I've been doing some testing regarding your 1gate fe version vs the huk fe (the greedy version where you cut probes at 20, get your nexus down, then produce a stalker), but instead of cb wg tech all the time and adding 2 more gates and then resuming probe production which you would need to do vs something like a 2rax pressure to not die, I resumed probe production and used all chronos except for one on it. I've been doing this in the past whenever I wanted to open huk-fe but scouted a gasless fe from the terran, so there was no need to cut more probes and rush for that warpgate tech unless you want to go on the aggressive. If you compare this to your version (without halting probe production on 27 supply), the moment both nexi are finishd (around 6:10 ingame time) the huk fe had 4 probes more. However, the 20food huk expo (especially true for the later versions where you get a stalker out before nexus or even sentries) is behind in economy otherwise.
Keep in mind that if you scout out a gasless fe opening you can adjust and just chrono out your probes more with this version as well instead of using it on the sentry and zealot for example. So afterall you will be behind about 2-3 probes in that case. If you do the huk-fe and pull 1 probe out of gas and doing it on 19 supply (what Sase seems to be constantly doing on his stream), you can get your nexus down like 20sec earlier and get more ahead. Or you could even do the whitera version of delaying your cyber core once you spot gasless fe and get your nexus down faster. Your warpgate tech is going to be delayed, something your opponent will also be scouting.
So the results so far from my testing: - Go for the opening kcdc describes here, it's really good. - If you scout gasless fe, quickly transition into a more greedy version (huk version; but only cut probes at 19/20 depending on version). - If you scout 1rax marauder conc expand go for the mc 1gate fe (basically zealot-stalker-stalker and expand at 31 supply). - If you scout your opponent too late (bigger 4 player map for example) just go for this 1gate fe version, it does fine vs all those openings if you do it correctly, unless you tech right after your 2nd gate and you face some kind of proxy-rax or similar.
*sidenote* I recommend to always start that zealot and only cancel it if you see the gasless expand and the terran is not engineering blocking your natural expansion. Your expansion will be heavily delayed if you skip the zealot in this case and on most maps taking your natural somewhere else is kinda risky since it's tough to defend later on.
On November 23 2011 03:46 unit wrote: just how do you get the nexus down to 4:25!? ive been following the build exactly up to that point but i always seem to get my nexus between 4:30 and 4:35 (2 chrono on nexus) but in your replay it goes down at 4:25, the only thing i can think of is maybe the probe split and keeping probes on close patches, but i dont see anything else that would make a difference, just how much of a difference does that close patch mining mineral trick make
The trick is that I'm a badass.
Mmmmmm, no, that's not it. It's probe micro. XNC is the fastest map to mine on too.
i didnt expect this thread to help me as a player and not just in PvT, i never really focused on the early probe micro as i didnt feel it that important, well...seems like i was wrong and its def worth doing, as the time difference between our builds means that i had far more trouble holding off 2rax agression than i should have...also this is rather useful PvP ;3
On November 25 2011 09:06 Fairwell wrote: I've been doing some testing regarding your 1gate fe version vs the huk fe (the greedy version where you cut probes at 20, get your nexus down, then produce a stalker), but instead of cb wg tech all the time and adding 2 more gates and then resuming probe production which you would need to do vs something like a 2rax pressure to not die, I resumed probe production and used all chronos except for one on it. I've been doing this in the past whenever I wanted to open huk-fe but scouted a gasless fe from the terran, so there was no need to cut more probes and rush for that warpgate tech unless you want to go on the aggressive. If you compare this to your version (without halting probe production on 27 supply), the moment both nexi are finishd (around 6:10 ingame time) the huk fe had 4 probes more. However, the 20food huk expo (especially true for the later versions where you get a stalker out before nexus or even sentries) is behind in economy otherwise.
Keep in mind that if you scout out a gasless fe opening you can adjust and just chrono out your probes more with this version as well instead of using it on the sentry and zealot for example. So afterall you will be behind about 2-3 probes in that case. If you do the huk-fe and pull 1 probe out of gas and doing it on 19 supply (what Sase seems to be constantly doing on his stream), you can get your nexus down like 20sec earlier and get more ahead. Or you could even do the whitera version of delaying your cyber core once you spot gasless fe and get your nexus down faster. Your warpgate tech is going to be delayed, something your opponent will also be scouting.
So the results so far from my testing: - Go for the opening kcdc describes here, it's really good. - If you scout gasless fe, quickly transition into a more greedy version (huk version; but only cut probes at 19/20 depending on version). - If you scout 1rax marauder conc expand go for the mc 1gate fe (basically zealot-stalker-stalker and expand at 31 supply). - If you scout your opponent too late (bigger 4 player map for example) just go for this 1gate fe version, it does fine vs all those openings if you do it correctly, unless you tech right after your 2nd gate and you face some kind of proxy-rax or similar.
*sidenote* I recommend to always start that zealot and only cancel it if you see the gasless expand and the terran is not engineering blocking your natural expansion. Your expansion will be heavily delayed if you skip the zealot in this case and on most maps taking your natural somewhere else is kinda risky since it's tough to defend later on.
you can do a huk type of FE without cutting probes though. Imo it's the best version of them all most of the time. If you do the build well you can drop your nexus before even starting warpgate technology and you're way ahead of this kcdc 1 gate FE build then. It's riskier in the early game ofcourse (though evens out in units at warpgate) and you get to scout before making the critical decision most of the time. If you don't scout them in time you can either guess they didn't proxy or do the safer 1 gate FE still.
Fairwell, thanks for running those tests. I agree with your logic tree at the end, more or less, tho I do prefer to stay with zealot-stalker-sentry-zealot vs 1-rax marauder rather than zealot-stalker-stalker. If I expect that poke, I just pull ~4 probes out at the timing it would show up which makes it pretty easy to clean up. And if the poke doesn't come, the nexus finishes a few seconds later and you get those probes back to mining, so there's very little cost.
Fairwell and Merkwerf, I do wonder how my opening would compare to a Huk-style FE that's safer against Terran builds that aren't no-gas FE. The Huk-style builds that you're comparing my build to aren't safe if you scout gas (and aren't safe against no-gas cheese that you can't 100% rule out before you've committed), so IMO, it'd make more sense to compare builds that are equally safe. If you want to throw risky builds into the pool, there are greedier options.
On November 23 2011 03:46 unit wrote: just how do you get the nexus down to 4:25!? ive been following the build exactly up to that point but i always seem to get my nexus between 4:30 and 4:35 (2 chrono on nexus) but in your replay it goes down at 4:25, the only thing i can think of is maybe the probe split and keeping probes on close patches, but i dont see anything else that would make a difference, just how much of a difference does that close patch mining mineral trick make
The trick is that I'm a badass.
Mmmmmm, no, that's not it. It's probe micro. XNC is the fastest map to mine on too.
Maybe also the fact that the nexus goes down at 26 on your replay instead of 27/28 as indicated in your post. But yeah, XN is perfect for probe stacking anyway.
On November 23 2011 03:46 unit wrote: just how do you get the nexus down to 4:25!? ive been following the build exactly up to that point but i always seem to get my nexus between 4:30 and 4:35 (2 chrono on nexus) but in your replay it goes down at 4:25, the only thing i can think of is maybe the probe split and keeping probes on close patches, but i dont see anything else that would make a difference, just how much of a difference does that close patch mining mineral trick make
The trick is that I'm a badass.
Mmmmmm, no, that's not it. It's probe micro. XNC is the fastest map to mine on too.
Maybe also the fact that the nexus goes down at 26 on your replay instead of 27/28 as indicated in your post. But yeah, XN is perfect for probe stacking anyway.
Huh, weird. I've been favoring 3 chronos on probes lately, but it might be the case that really efficient mining with 2 chronos can get you 400 minerals without probe cutting at 26 food. That'll never happen on maps with less than 4 close patches tho.
I'm so glad I found this cuz I've been stuck using a 2gate expand but I accidentally did this build and was able to time it where the gate fines right on time with my nexus allowing me to have enough stalkers to hold any early push. Although I prefer using mainly zealot sentry holding out on stalkers as long as I can.
The big problem is that I forgot how to do it but this reminded me of it and now it's time to practice.
On November 23 2011 03:46 unit wrote: just how do you get the nexus down to 4:25!? ive been following the build exactly up to that point but i always seem to get my nexus between 4:30 and 4:35 (2 chrono on nexus) but in your replay it goes down at 4:25, the only thing i can think of is maybe the probe split and keeping probes on close patches, but i dont see anything else that would make a difference, just how much of a difference does that close patch mining mineral trick make
The trick is that I'm a badass.
Mmmmmm, no, that's not it. It's probe micro. XNC is the fastest map to mine on too.
Maybe also the fact that the nexus goes down at 26 on your replay instead of 27/28 as indicated in your post. But yeah, XN is perfect for probe stacking anyway.
Huh, weird. I've been favoring 3 chronos on probes lately, but it might be the case that really efficient mining with 2 chronos can get you 400 minerals without probe cutting at 26 food. That'll never happen on maps with less than 4 close patches tho.
Yep, I just checked, with the perfect 2-2-2-2 stacking on close patches I got at around 0:55, I could plant down my nexus at 4:20 with 26/34 and maybe 2-3 game seconds probe cut on my nexus. I brought back my scouting probe very early though. I don't think this scenario is very realistic.
Where do i spend my chrono after the first 2 or 3 chronos on the nexus? Specifically how many times do i need to chrono my core to have it line up with the 2 gateways. And also should i chrono the first stalker out?
On November 27 2011 08:20 Zalor wrote: Where do i spend my chrono after the first 2 or 3 chronos on the nexus? Specifically how many times do i need to chrono my core to have it line up with the 2 gateways. And also should i chrono the first stalker out?
y u no read thread?
2 CB on Nexus Expo @ 27 Food 3 CB on CyCore 1 on Sentry 1 on 2nd Zealot
lines up @ 5:46
With 3 CB on Nexus you need to stack Probes perfectly on 4 Patches and even then the Buildorder is unforgiving close. I recommend to stick with the regular version, all in all the difference is not even 50 minerals (3rd CB on Nexus).
On November 27 2011 01:54 kcdc wrote: Fairwell, thanks for running those tests. I agree with your logic tree at the end, more or less, tho I do prefer to stay with zealot-stalker-sentry-zealot vs 1-rax marauder rather than zealot-stalker-stalker. If I expect that poke, I just pull ~4 probes out at the timing it would show up which makes it pretty easy to clean up. And if the poke doesn't come, the nexus finishes a few seconds later and you get those probes back to mining, so there's very little cost.
Fairwell and Merkwerf, I do wonder how my opening would compare to a Huk-style FE that's safer against Terran builds that aren't no-gas FE. The Huk-style builds that you're comparing my build to aren't safe if you scout gas (and aren't safe against no-gas cheese that you can't 100% rule out before you've committed), so IMO, it'd make more sense to compare builds that are equally safe. If you want to throw risky builds into the pool, there are greedier options.
I did some more testing, this time regarding only safe builds which you can use without really getting a good intel about your opponent's opening (because your scouting probe gets to his base too late and you can't see if he took a gas for example or you can't rule out any proxy rax + bunker pressure shenanigans).
For the following I assume a gateway scout, which I always do on 2 player maps like XNC and mostly also on maps with 2 spawning possibilities for your opponent. A 9pylon scout basically works as well and I've switched to doing it more often lately because quit some terrans nowadays seem to like to start their supply debot right about 3-4sec ingame before your scouting probe gets into their base on maps like Shattered Temple if you scout him in the 2nd possible spawning location. So you either do a 9pylon scout to scout for gasless fe, do pylon block with cancel for addons in his main if you wish to etc and be as greedy as you can with the information you can get, or you just choose a safe version if you don't get in any more. As a sidenote I'd like to mention that on maps like Metalopolis and Shattered Temple if you scout him 2nd (that is last now also on ladder) and he starts his 2nd supply debot to block you from getting in he either cut scvs briefly to do so or went for gasless fe. It's not a 100% tell since he could have just briefly cut scvs to leave you in the dark, but it's a small tell for you.
The best version/modification that is absolutely safe in this situation has been the Sase-version (only 2 cb on nexus, cut probes at 19, that means 16 probes on minerals, 2 on gas (you put a 3rd probe a bit later in your gas, I'll mention it in a little bit, one probe scouting out on the map, if that probe gets denied to scout his base leave it somewhere in front of his base so you can poke up to check marine count or for other tells like a bunker being started/addons on the rax there etc -> for those who are interested in timings: at 3:08min the first marine should pop out if the terran didn't delay his opening after the +5sec rax buildtime change, from there on by poking up his front you can derive information about his opening like him building a reactor (50sec ... that means at 4:23min he will have 5 marines, so if you check his ramp and see only one marine for a while and around 4:30 you can count 4+ marines it's gonna be a reactor and so on).
Be aware that with the version described here you should be aware of an early scouting scv and where this one is heading to. Some players like to engineering block or bunker block your natural expansion forcing you into a significant delay for your expansion or into an expansion where your 3rd base is supposed to be. The first issue can be solved with starting a zealot after your cybercore has completed without cutting probes before you reach the 19 supply and cancelling that zealot when you see that no block is there. Signs for a block are his scv seeing your 2 probes in gas etc and going straight to your natural and staying there, in which case you should sent one probe to check until you decide to cancel your zealot. You can just stay with the build (the zealot will be out in time to kill that scv building an engineering bay) just with a 100min delayed expansion or you can decide to not cut probes at 19 and opt for another fe version at that point (put a 3rd probe in gas if you want to do so asap again). Other times your scouting probe at the xel naga or in front of his base will see his scouting scv returning home shortly after he left his base in which case you just cancel the zealot in the last second. All this depends on the rush distance of the map (so you can cancel that zealot in time), etc. The 2nd case usually comes into play when you didn't react correctly or too late which can be fine in my experience on some maps especially if you have a follow up with a quick 3rd base in mind (that is around 8min+ before medivacs have hit the field). In that case just make sure you start the 3rd pylon at your new expansion so your 3 stalker warpin if needed can be there. Your first stalkers are quick enough to walk there and you will see his push coming from the xel naga tower. I wouldn't recommend to do this on every map though.
So if you ruled out those things or found the right reaction/solution you will want to expand at 19 supply. So once you get up to about 250minerals send a probe from your main to your natural and plant the nexus at 400 minerals (should be around 3:30min ingame so around 20sec earlier than the normal Hukversion, those 20sec come from having one less probe in gas and cutting one probe more before getting the nexus). Send this probe back to mining (unless you suspect an scv starting a hidden bunker around your nexus, then check for it first). Start warpgate tech with the next 50 minerals and cb it 5 times in a row (hint: I personally don't have issues hitting 5 cb on wg tech any more since I started to use this ingame warning you get when a cb runs out and I have it hotkeyed to jump there asap. So for everyone having issues hitting 5 cb on the warpgates should try this out.) Get your 20th probe now and put a 3rd probe back in gas. Your scouting probe stays in front of his base or at least the right xel naga. Next you get a non-cb stalker out of your 1st gate and follow it up by getting 2 more gates (so they finish exactly when wg tech finishes). You will continue probe production now and get a 2nd stalker right when the first one finishes (you will have exactly the money to get this 2nd stalker without a delay and get up to 22 probes). The next 100 minerals go to a pylon (sometimes probe production is halted for a slight moment, that depends on early game mineral pairing, if you use a probe to check for bunkers etc so if your pylon is a bit delayed or not; without delay there is no break here). You continue to produce probes nonstop from now on on both nexi. Don't forget to transfer all probes above 16 on minerals from your main and reset your worker ralley point to your natural expansion once your expansion nexus has finished to get the maximum mining efficiency. Once your warpgates are finished (of a 13 gate with 5 perfect cb on your warpgates it should be around 5:30, in a real game it's for me mostly around 5:35). Your 2nd and 3rd gateway finish that second and you transform all into warpgates. If you put your 3rd probe in gas at the right moment where I mentioned it before, you have exactly enough gas to warp in 3 more stalkers now.
So you end up having 5 stalkers for any incoming pressure around 5:45min into the game (transformation time + warpin time included), enough money to nonstop produce probes now, 3 gates and 1 gas. From here one get another pylon and decide on your follow up. If it's heavy agression from your opponent with bunkers + scvs, just use the next free cb on warpgates to get more units out. If you warped in your 3 stalkers and your opponent didn't open 2 rax (you should have enough information by poking his front with the scouting probe now) go aggressive and set up the next pylon with your scouting probe at a good position near his base. Often times terrans will have their bunker started slightly too late (or if you can manage to delay it vs a gasless fe if you poked with your first 2 stalkers and did some nice focus firing). Make use of your units, if your opponent screwed up you can do sick dmg. If not just back, you lost nothing by trying it since you didn't cut probes for it and warped in those units anways already. If you do the the information that your opponent is not going to be agressive soon, skip the 3 stalker warpin and get a zealot-sentry warpin and use the saved money for faster further gases and teching up.
Last but not least the eco result compared to kcdc's version described in the op. By using those first 2 cb on the nexus and 5 on warpgates with those probe cuts I had mentioned you end up having about one more probe (it's pretty much exactly one, but with all tests I did you always have some in production, so I tried to compare at the same ingame time when all versions have the expansion nexus completed and checked also the current probes in production how far they are from finishing) than the version described in this thread. You start mining more efficiently from your expansion earlier as well and if you get any information that you are going to be safe earlier you can modify it at any point by not doing those probe cuts (except for the first one) and delaying your unit production. However, you have a bit less mining at the start but more importantly, the kcdc version gets less infrastructure (no 3rd gate that early or only if you are sure a 2 rax is coming, which can be held of with 2 gates but you can add 1-2 more gates to go on the counteroffensive after holding it of or just to be safe if your opponent brings more scvs) which allows you to tech up quicker (for instance you can throw down a forge right when you would make your 3rd gate and have exactly 100gas to start +1 armor with constant production which leads into sick fast +2 armor if you start the twilight in time etc) and your unit composition seems to be nicer the longer your opponent waits or if he is not doing a strong push, because you get a sentry out earlier which has about 80-85energy when a 2rax hits (so enough for a gs which is a big help in holding of that push). Depending on your liking, your planned followup and by keeping those things in mind you should be choosing the opening you prefer more.
Thanks Fairwell. So the Sase 19 food FE will have roughly 1 more probe than the 2 chronoboost version I have posted here. I believe the 3 chronoboost version might be slightly more economical, so maybe those are even closer. Both builds should pull probes against 1 marine, 2 marauder pushes (with bunkering SCVs), tho I expect that my build will lose fewer probes to the pressure because it has a zealot to tank (tho it has 1 fewer stalker at this timing for DPS).
The lower early infrastructure spending is an interesting point. Since my build can get by on 2 gates for a longer period of time, it does allow a quicker robo or forge. On the other hand, the Sase build allows pressure with 5 stalkers while I'll be in a more defensive posture with a sentry.
Fairwell, though I have never seen the Sase version I do a somewhat similar version but I mine even less gas at the beginning so I have around 60 gas when my cybercore finishes. That lets me make nexus before cyber finishes at 3:20, it's very hard for terran to block it at that timing as they will usually be entering your base around that time actually. The nice thing about such a build is that the nexus actually finishes just before your warpgates from 5cb on warpgate would finish. So if you want you could actually cut probes at 21 and make 4 gates still to finish just in time, using the pop from the nexus to allow 4 units when cb finishes. It let's you be safe against almost any build really as long as you cut probes at the right time and make more gates earlier to adjust. If you scout they are NOT planning fast aggresive play, which can usually be seen by either a fast 2nd depot or a building command center you can proceed and not cut any probes at all, at which point this build is massively ahead of a zealot first 1 gate FE because it has the nexus 1 minute earlier.
It is true though that such a build has more trouble dealing with super fast bunker pressure but that is only a option for terran if they spawn close enough really. For example 1 rax marine marauder pressure is really not a problem on a long spawn distance, you simply poke with your stalker as long as you can and then you simply clean up with your first wave of units warped in. What I usually do on a map like metalopolis for example is this: I scout from 13 gate to the closest possible spawn position. If they are there I tend to play a 1 gate FE with zealot - stalker - stalker but using minimal units on gas, if they are cross spawn i simply go for a sase like FE. I then poke with the probe a bit to see how fast i need to get my 2nd,3rd and 4th gate. If they pressure i get all these before 3rd pylon, if they don't pressure much i just go 3rd pylon -> 2nd gate, 3rd gate. Always use 5 cb on warpgate. Using all the cb on warpgate is not the most efficient use of warpgate in case you are not making many gates fast but it's ideal because you spend cb on getting units faster without actually having to spend money straight away. CBing probes or units has the problem that you also have to spend your money earlier causing you some idle buildings later on anyway. For that reason 2 CB on nexus is ideal here, by not CBing a 3rd time you get the 2nd nexus up faster and gain some extra safety by having warpgate 10s faster.
On November 27 2011 15:34 kcdc wrote: The lower early infrastructure spending is an interesting point. Since my build can get by on 2 gates for a longer period of time, it does allow a quicker robo or forge. On the other hand, the Sase build allows pressure with 5 stalkers while I'll be in a more defensive posture with a sentry.
Yep, that was exactly one of the points I realised when playing around with those builds. Depending on your followup both builds have different merits.
On November 27 2011 21:59 Markwerf wrote: Fairwell, though I have never seen the Sase version I do a somewhat similar version but I mine even less gas at the beginning so I have around 60 gas when my cybercore finishes. That lets me make nexus before cyber finishes at 3:20, it's very hard for terran to block it at that timing as they will usually be entering your base around that time actually.
That's indeed a very interesting point I've never thought of so far. Thanks for pointing this out. When do you get your probes in gas with this version and do you have 150gas for 3 more stalkers right the moment your warpgates finish with 5cb or do you get a zealot in there as well then?
On November 27 2011 21:59 Markwerf wrote: The nice thing about such a build is that the nexus actually finishes just before your warpgates from 5cb on warpgate would finish. So if you want you could actually cut probes at 21 and make 4 gates still to finish just in time, using the pop from the nexus to allow 4 units when cb finishes. It let's you be safe against almost any build really as long as you cut probes at the right time and make more gates earlier to adjust.
This could be very helpful if you expect someone pulling quite some scvs (some players have strong tendencies to do so :-)). Why is the probecut at 21 then instead of 22? You should get 10 additional supply from the nexus (2 more than from the 3rd pylon otherwise) but get one more unit out instead. I assume that you suggest cutting probes at 21 in this circumstance because you won't have the money for a full 4 unit warpin right away otherwise.
On November 27 2011 21:59 Markwerf wrote: What I usually do on a map like metalopolis for example is this: I scout from 13 gate to the closest possible spawn position. If they are there I tend to play a 1 gate FE with zealot - stalker - stalker but using minimal units on gas, if they are cross spawn i simply go for a sase like FE. I then poke with the probe a bit to see how fast i need to get my 2nd,3rd and 4th gate. If they pressure i get all these before 3rd pylon, if they don't pressure much i just go 3rd pylon -> 2nd gate, 3rd gate. Always use 5 cb on warpgate. Using all the cb on warpgate is not the most efficient use of warpgate in case you are not making many gates fast but it's ideal because you spend cb on getting units faster without actually having to spend money straight away. CBing probes or units has the problem that you also have to spend your money earlier causing you some idle buildings later on anyway. For that reason 2 CB on nexus is ideal here, by not CBing a 3rd time you get the 2nd nexus up faster and gain some extra safety by having warpgate 10s faster.
You have a good point about the cb usage, that's why I also like to only use 2 cb on my nexus early on nowadays, because normally you do some probe cut to get your nexus out super fast anyways (except for the kcdc version here) and why would I want to use a 3rd cb on my nexus a little bit beforehand then. Like mentioned above, I'd be really interested in when you mine your gas (to get your nexus down at 3:20min) and if you expect heavy aggression and get 3 more gates what your gas count is at warpin time. I assume you will have the gas to warp in 2 stalkers and the rest zealots at that point, since normally when I do the Sase-version I put the 3rd probe back into gas after I placed down my nexus and exactly have enough gas for 3 stalkers then.
On November 27 2011 21:59 Markwerf wrote: Using all the cb on warpgate is not the most efficient use of warpgate in case you are not making many gates fast but it's ideal because you spend cb on getting units faster without actually having to spend money straight away. CBing probes or units has the problem that you also have to spend your money earlier causing you some idle buildings later on anyway. For that reason 2 CB on nexus is ideal here, by not CBing a 3rd time you get the 2nd nexus up faster and gain some extra safety by having warpgate 10s faster.
I want to highlight that thought again because its brilliant.
I really disliked all these early 1 Gate Expands because the huge Probecuts felt illogical while attempting to do a very economical opening. On the other side boosting Warpgate for just a single Gate seems like utter garbage and boosting the first Gate itself appears to be a waste as soon as you consider the same effect on WG with more than one Gate upon completion. I wonder how much longer it would have taken me to combine all these points with my own thoughts finally into your Opening. As bonus it even feels very smooth and natural. 2nd Nexus lines up with WG perfectly and therefore decreases its opportunity costs immediately to 275. I love it and owe you one if we ever meet in person 8]
On November 27 2011 21:59 Markwerf wrote: [Fast bunker pressure] is only a option for terran if they spawn close enough really. For example 1 rax marine marauder pressure is really not a problem on a long spawn distance, you simply poke with your stalker as long as you can and then you simply clean up with your first wave of units warped in.
This isn't really true. T can have multiple bunkers finished by the time you can warp in units, and if you let him get to this point, you're screwed. You need to pull probes and fight his marauders+SCVs with probes+2 stalkers. You wind up losing more than T does. This pressure is the primary reason I moved away from these styles of FE's.
On November 27 2011 21:59 Markwerf wrote: [Fast bunker pressure] is only a option for terran if they spawn close enough really. For example 1 rax marine marauder pressure is really not a problem on a long spawn distance, you simply poke with your stalker as long as you can and then you simply clean up with your first wave of units warped in.
This isn't really true. T can have multiple bunkers finished by the time you can warp in units, and if you let him get to this point, you're screwed. You need to pull probes and fight his marauders+SCVs with probes+2 stalkers. You wind up losing more than T does. This pressure is the primary reason I moved away from these styles of FE's.
On a very large map they won't have any backup units early for their SCV's to build the bunker so you can just pull a roughly equal number of probes and use your stalker. Also if they finish the bunker and you can make sure you can intercept any units going towards it a bunker is not that bad, you can simply wait 1 more round and then kill the bunker, like zergs do with lings in ZvT. Still I agree completely that the trouble you go through on some maps to stop this is not worth it and you might as well be better off with a slightly later FE with some more units. There are tons of small variations you can make for the smaller maps, for example on a small 2 player map like XNC I like to not scout at all and simply go with a zealot stalker push. Not scouting saves around 60 minerals I think and lets you do a fairly fast expo still while getting the information you need from a zealot push. There is also an option of not scouting and boosting out 2 zealots while the cybercore is making so you can go for a 2 zealot + 1 stalker push which can do decent damage many times or at least tell you what's up otherwise. Finally on maps with a choke to the natural there are valid points to make towards doing the build you described because an early sentry is so useful on those maps, on shakuras especially I like the build because 1 full energy sentry is enough to stop or stall any midgame aggresion so you can do a very greedy tech to colo to followup. A very quick 2 ranged colo push is so damn strong on shakuras that I usually prefer that route.
Either way I think you can handle most forms of aggresion with the various FE builds but they simply differ in the amount of damage you take. Huk/Sase style FE's take more damage against really fast aggresion (marine-> marauder) but also do much better against gasless expo's. Hereby named kcdc version is very solid when the map has a second ramp and is a little smaller (or features risk of proxies).
On November 27 2011 21:59 Markwerf wrote: [Fast bunker pressure] is only a option for terran if they spawn close enough really. For example 1 rax marine marauder pressure is really not a problem on a long spawn distance, you simply poke with your stalker as long as you can and then you simply clean up with your first wave of units warped in.
This isn't really true. T can have multiple bunkers finished by the time you can warp in units, and if you let him get to this point, you're screwed. You need to pull probes and fight his marauders+SCVs with probes+2 stalkers. You wind up losing more than T does. This pressure is the primary reason I moved away from these styles of FE's.
I find that reaper FE is the best build against Toss at this point. Especially if I early scout and see Nexus first or 1 gate FE, reapers ensure some early damage and map control.
I love the build because I get an early FE, gas for stim, map control and can micro against zealots all day. On certain maps, like Antigua shipyard, for example, the small corridor on the side of each presents a perfect backdoor to enter 3 reapers and 1 shot probes when their 1st or 2nd stalker is either at their natural (where you initially killed their zealot) or at the tower.
The goal is not to be greedy and only grab a few probe kills before going back down and keeping the constant threat at the Protoss door.
Meanwhile as Terran I can choose to be super greedy or just greedy. I find that against Toss, I must be relatively greedy overall. Against a top master player recently, I dropped a 3rd while using reapers for constant harass. I then bunkered the intersection of these bases, created the infrastructure that was commensurate with my income and bam, I'm so far ahead.
By the time his observer arrived and spotted my 3rd, it was way too late and I had several bunkers and tons of production.
I think if Toss is going to Nexus first or 1 Gate FE s/he must use early chronos for units and not be greedy with probes. Even if that means a slight reprieve from probe production. Furthermore, I think Toss needs to pressure the Terran at 6:30 with at least 1 stalker (using 1 to defend). Otherwise the reaper map control grants Terran a lot of leeway in the MU (my mmr= top master gm).
Quick question, had to skip ahead from page 6 so I'm unsure if this was answered but
vs a 2 rax with reactor/techlab with concussive (so 2 marauders, around 6 marines, and 4 scvs) is going 2 gate robo viable? Or does it always have to be extra gates? I pulled about 10 probes vs this and got absolutely crushed.
On December 04 2011 03:20 TylerThaCreator wrote: Quick question, had to skip ahead from page 6 so I'm unsure if this was answered but
vs a 2 rax with reactor/techlab with concussive (so 2 marauders, around 6 marines, and 4 scvs) is going 2 gate robo viable? Or does it always have to be extra gates? I pulled about 10 probes vs this and got absolutely crushed.
Cross positions shattered, I went for 3 chrono on nexus. Would saving a chrono for wg be of any use?
Why do you not follow the BO? Chronoboost on Stalker is waste because of no following production. Expand on 27 (send Probe @ 300 Minerals so you dont miss the expand timing) while cuting 1 probe, then Gate, then Sentry and more Probes.
By exactly following the BO you could have had almost another couple of Units at each point after Warpgate. In addition warp in 2 Stalkers instead of 2 Zealots and use Guardian Shield. 2 Zealots under Guardian Shield against Stimless-MM lasts quite long while the stalkers provide the DPS necessary to kill the push even if they kite. 2 additional Zealots on the other side just extends your suffering against concussive. If T brings SCVs to build bunkers either snipe them with your stalkers before engaging or use your pulled probes to focus them down while your Army deals with his. Working SCVs dont fight back.
This build hardcounters the crap out of 2 Rax so the 3rd production structure is mostly up to preference.
On December 04 2011 03:20 TylerThaCreator wrote: Quick question, had to skip ahead from page 6 so I'm unsure if this was answered but
vs a 2 rax with reactor/techlab with concussive (so 2 marauders, around 6 marines, and 4 scvs) is going 2 gate robo viable? Or does it always have to be extra gates? I pulled about 10 probes vs this and got absolutely crushed.
Cross positions shattered, I went for 3 chrono on nexus. Would saving a chrono for wg be of any use?
I do 3 chrono on probes at start. 2 chrono is about as good, but I do 3. I might change the guide, but I need to do a controlled test of the difference. Things like how close the mineral patches are on each map changes the outcome.
And yes, 2 gate robo works vs that push. You were closer to defending that push than you probably felt like you were. The key was that you were up on your ramp finishing warping in your 5th and 6th units at 6:30 when you should have them down the ramp by 6:15 at the latest. You can make up most of that difference by spending one more chrono on WG tech (you had one unused), starting your 2nd gate a little earlier, and warping in below your ramp if possible. Place your warp-in pylon on the ledge in your main so that it powers the low-ground but can't be sniped. And if you're going to pull probes, lead with a zealot, not with the probes. But you shouldn't usually have to pull probes against that push, although if T brings 4 SCVs, I guess you might want to pull a few workers yourself.
On December 04 2011 05:45 TylerThaCreator wrote: edit: I tend to chrono out stalker because I want to be able to kill the scouting SCV ASAP.
That is helpful if you want to tech, apply some early pressure (zealot+stalker poke) or do a mc-style-1gate-fe. Otherwise I don't really see the point in doing it. Especially in the 1gate-fe described in the op you are going to cut unit production after your stalker for a bit anyways and you will be missing this cb a little bit later. A terran that sees such a late gas and amount of cb saved up will think of a 1gate fe or 4gate and check if you expand. There really isn't anything you crucial information you can hide in those 10sec in your base.
I think that guides like this are the best example, how the TL "top level only" atitude is detrimental to helping any lower level players.
I am a platinum player. I can lose 6 minute games using this build all day long, what do I learn from that? (Not to mention that it is not particularly amusing.) I have basically never in my life beaten a marauder heavy early attack without an immortal or two.
At high level, when you can expect good micro form both sides, this build is excellent. At lwo level, where microing gateway units is orders of magnitude more difficult than m&m, this is just a very stupid way of playing. But we won't ever get a guide what to do, will we? (Apart of "get better with you micro".)
On December 04 2011 22:04 opisska wrote: I think that guides like this are the best example, how the TL "top level only" atitude is detrimental to helping any lower level players.
I am a platinum player. I can lose 6 minute games using this build all day long, what do I learn from that? (Not to mention that it is not particularly amusing.) I have basically never in my life beaten a marauder heavy early attack without an immortal or two.
At high level, when you can expect good micro form both sides, this build is excellent. At lwo level, where microing gateway units is orders of magnitude more difficult than m&m, this is just a very stupid way of playing. But we won't ever get a guide what to do, will we? (Apart of "get better with you micro".)
I don't understand your point. None is telling you to always 1gate fe or whatever; you can always open 2gate robo and/or 3gate expand and play super safe if you want to not die to early game pressure. If you do want to improve as a player and get in higher leagues however (which is the target audience for tl guides), eventually you will have to get comfortable in 1gate expanding in a lot of pvt situations; this guide is a good way to start doing it. If you don't want to lose ladder games, just grab a practice partner and practice...
On December 04 2011 22:04 opisska wrote: I think that guides like this are the best example, how the TL "top level only" atitude is detrimental to helping any lower level players.
I am a platinum player. I can lose 6 minute games using this build all day long, what do I learn from that? (Not to mention that it is not particularly amusing.) I have basically never in my life beaten a marauder heavy early attack without an immortal or two.
At high level, when you can expect good micro form both sides, this build is excellent. At lwo level, where microing gateway units is orders of magnitude more difficult than m&m, this is just a very stupid way of playing. But we won't ever get a guide what to do, will we? (Apart of "get better with you micro".)
Then you know your issues, and you continue running the build working on that ever so difficult protoss micro early game. Scout better. Place probes outside his base so you can see him coming. Pull drones. 2 nexus vs 1 OC you can afford to lose practically all your probe at your natural, and still be safe.
If I'm not mistaken, does this guide not advocate an early robo after the expo? What's the issue?
On December 04 2011 23:40 Complete wrote: Mmm, I stopped doing this build
scv/marine allins are very hard to deal with going zealot,stalker,sentry
They're hard to defend with any FE. You pretty much have to see them coming, but at least this build has a shot to get the sentry in time to delay them for 15 seconds which lets you get WG before you're completely dead.
On December 04 2011 22:04 opisska wrote: I think that guides like this are the best example, how the TL "top level only" atitude is detrimental to helping any lower level players.
I am a platinum player. I can lose 6 minute games using this build all day long, what do I learn from that? (Not to mention that it is not particularly amusing.) I have basically never in my life beaten a marauder heavy early attack without an immortal or two.
At high level, when you can expect good micro form both sides, this build is excellent. At lwo level, where microing gateway units is orders of magnitude more difficult than m&m, this is just a very stupid way of playing. But we won't ever get a guide what to do, will we? (Apart of "get better with you micro".)
You don't have to do the build. But if you want to improve, why don't you just grab a partner and practice against whatever you're having problems with. The micro really isn't hard at all unless T has bunkers in your way, and if you follow my advice about pulling probes for a 2-marauder push with SCVs, T shouldn't ever get bunkers between your army and his. All you have to do is A-move and pull back your stalkers when your zealots are about to die.
On December 04 2011 22:04 opisska wrote: I think that guides like this are the best example, how the TL "top level only" atitude is detrimental to helping any lower level players.
I am a platinum player. I can lose 6 minute games using this build all day long, what do I learn from that? (Not to mention that it is not particularly amusing.) I have basically never in my life beaten a marauder heavy early attack without an immortal or two.
At high level, when you can expect good micro form both sides, this build is excellent. At lwo level, where microing gateway units is orders of magnitude more difficult than m&m, this is just a very stupid way of playing. But we won't ever get a guide what to do, will we? (Apart of "get better with you micro".)
Look for builds like 3 gate expand or 2 gate robo in PvT. I know for sure that there is a guide for 2 gate robo, but there is probably one for 3 gate expand as well.
On December 04 2011 22:04 opisska wrote: I think that guides like this are the best example, how the TL "top level only" atitude is detrimental to helping any lower level players.
I am a platinum player. I can lose 6 minute games using this build all day long, what do I learn from that? (Not to mention that it is not particularly amusing.) I have basically never in my life beaten a marauder heavy early attack without an immortal or two.
At high level, when you can expect good micro form both sides, this build is excellent. At lwo level, where microing gateway units is orders of magnitude more difficult than m&m, this is just a very stupid way of playing. But we won't ever get a guide what to do, will we? (Apart of "get better with you micro".)
A lot of people have already responded to this, but I feel like I have to chime in as well. This post is just ridiculous. How is this guide detrimental to helping lower level players? If you can't execute it, just ignore the guide. Or practice the build until you can get it. Do you expect us to write guides that aren't optimal for high level play? What would be the point of that?
On December 04 2011 22:04 opisska wrote: I think that guides like this are the best example, how the TL "top level only" atitude is detrimental to helping any lower level players.
I am a platinum player. I can lose 6 minute games using this build all day long, what do I learn from that? (Not to mention that it is not particularly amusing.) I have basically never in my life beaten a marauder heavy early attack without an immortal or two.
At high level, when you can expect good micro form both sides, this build is excellent. At lwo level, where microing gateway units is orders of magnitude more difficult than m&m, this is just a very stupid way of playing. But we won't ever get a guide what to do, will we? (Apart of "get better with you micro".)
A lot of people have already responded to this, but I feel like I have to chime in as well. This post is just ridiculous. How is this guide detrimental to helping lower level players? If you can't execute it, just ignore the guide. Or practice the build until you can get it. Do you expect us to write guides that aren't optimal for high level play? What would be the point of that?
Pretty much this. If you are so worried about early pressure, 3 gate expand. Its not going to hurt you in the long run against most platinum players because they will either 1 rax expand and you can punish that heavily with 3 gate pressure, or 2/3 rax you and you hold it. Simple.
On the guide - yeah you saved my PvT. I just couldn't get a good order for the initial units out of my gateways, and now I'm finally feeling solid in the match up after about 2 months of getting schooled. Thanks man.
On December 04 2011 22:04 opisska wrote: I think that guides like this are the best example, how the TL "top level only" atitude is detrimental to helping any lower level players.
I am a platinum player. I can lose 6 minute games using this build all day long, what do I learn from that? (Not to mention that it is not particularly amusing.) I have basically never in my life beaten a marauder heavy early attack without an immortal or two.
At high level, when you can expect good micro form both sides, this build is excellent. At lwo level, where microing gateway units is orders of magnitude more difficult than m&m, this is just a very stupid way of playing. But we won't ever get a guide what to do, will we? (Apart of "get better with you micro".)
The micro goes like this:
If he has too much stuff or pulled SCVs, pull your workers.
pop guardian shield.
A-move into his army with the zealots (optionally have each zealot attack a separate marauder).
Select your stalkers and focus fire the marauders one at a time (all your stalkers should be attacking a single marauder).
Pull back any stalkers taking fire. Only zealots should be taking damage.
Once marauders are dead, Begin kiting marines with stalkers.
Don't miss any warp-ins. Chrono gateways if it's heavy pressure.
Don't be afraid to sit back and let him shoot at the nexus for a little bit if you need time for another warp-in. Just don't let him finish any bunkers.
its possible to hold with this build, if you open up with stalker and puke their ramp and dont build any sentrys at the very beginning. furthermore, you have to safe a lot of crono on your warptech, so you have 3 warpins rdy when hes near / in your base. stalker kite-micro should deal with marine scv allins then.
when u scout gas or youre not sure whether he techs or not, play a "safer" build, although people with very good micro can deal with every early game pressure doing it. And its one of the best openings against 1-1-1s or leading into macrogames.
On December 04 2011 23:40 Complete wrote: Mmm, I stopped doing this build
scv/marine allins are very hard to deal with going zealot,stalker,sentry
I also agree with this. It seems close to impossible to stop a 2 rax no gas marine scv allin with this build.
I haven't kept up with this thread as much as I'd like, do you have a 1g FE variation you like to do?
I've been working on it a little bit. Right now I'm going z,st,st,nexus pulling 1 guy off gas once I have about 70 gas mined. 2 chrono's on the nexus, rest on warp gate. 2nd gate right after nexus is thrown down and robo after that. Gets me warpgate at almost 4gate quick (except off of a 13 gate). I scout a little later for the extra minerals because it's safe against any non-proxy early aggression.
Obviously if I'm able to scout 1rax FE I spend more chrono on nexus and the robo is optional
On December 05 2011 01:26 KalWarkov wrote: its possible to hold with this build, if you open up with stalker and puke their ramp and dont build any sentrys at the very beginning. furthermore, you have to safe a lot of crono on your warptech, so you have 3 warpins rdy when hes near / in your base. stalker kite-micro should deal with marine scv allins then.
when u scout gas or youre not sure whether he techs or not, play a "safer" build, although people with very good micro can deal with every early game pressure doing it. And its one of the best openings against 1-1-1s or leading into macrogames.
Yea, but he makes no mention of skipping the sentry and instead getting the stalker in his guide. I was saying that if you commit to the sentry as your 3rd unit, it becomes very hard to hold.
On December 05 2011 01:19 NrGmonk wrote: I also agree with this. It seems close to impossible to stop a 2 rax no gas marine scv allin with this build.
But like kcdc already stated, they are hard to defend out of any fe. By accident I actually ran into a marine-scv allin lately on my 2nd account vs some masters guy on the us server (http://drop.sc/68018). I opened with a 9 pylon scout and placed my pylon + gate so I could wall of because my opponent was random, but apart from that it was basically pretty much the kcdc opening when I couldn't get into his base and check his opening (scouted him last). He didn't do the supply drop in the front though, but instead made a 2nd supply debot (the real fast allin version would be 11rax, 12rax, 12rax with orbital, supply drop and moving out with 3 marines + scvs). However, even though I was kinda throwing away my 2 zealots and sentry at my natural by poor micro on my part I hold it off with the stalker warpin and from that point on I was far ahead.
With really quick stalkers and good kiting on the map and sniping out the marines it would be easier to hold of for sure, but if you don't lose the sentry like I did in this game you should be able to ff the ramp to buy enough time for the stalker warpin, from there on you should be fine if you pull some probes to help out.
On December 04 2011 23:40 Complete wrote: Mmm, I stopped doing this build
scv/marine allins are very hard to deal with going zealot,stalker,sentry
I also agree with this. It seems close to impossible to stop a 2 rax no gas marine scv allin with this build.
I haven't kept up with this thread as much as I'd like, do you have a 1g FE variation you like to do?
I've been working on it a little bit. Right now I'm going z,st,st,nexus pulling 1 guy off gas once I have about 70 gas mined. 2 chrono's on the nexus, rest on warp gate. 2nd gate right after nexus is thrown down and robo after that. Gets me warpgate at almost 4gate quick (except off of a 13 gate). I scout a little later for the extra minerals because it's safe against any non-proxy early aggression.
Obviously if I'm able to scout 1rax FE I spend more chrono on nexus and the robo is optional
I do MC's version which is zealot stalker stalker 30 food expo with 0 chornos on warpgates. This is the opening I've noticed that many koreans prefer including MC, Oz, and Creator. I have a guide halfway done on this opening, but I've been too lazy to finish it.
On December 05 2011 01:26 KalWarkov wrote: its possible to hold with this build, if you open up with stalker and puke their ramp and dont build any sentrys at the very beginning. furthermore, you have to safe a lot of crono on your warptech, so you have 3 warpins rdy when hes near / in your base. stalker kite-micro should deal with marine scv allins then.
when u scout gas or youre not sure whether he techs or not, play a "safer" build, although people with very good micro can deal with every early game pressure doing it. And its one of the best openings against 1-1-1s or leading into macrogames.
Yea, but he makes no mention of skipping the sentry and instead getting the stalker in his guide. I was saying that if you commit to the sentry as your 3rd unit, it becomes very hard to hold.
IMO, the best way to hold it is to see it coming early. If you cancel your nexus and wall off the top of your ramp with gateways, it's an easy win. I don't think beating marine SCV all-ins with this opening is much different than with other 1 gate FE's. Just keep tabs on T's ramp/natural and hold a watch tower between your bases if possible. If cheese is coming, wall off and whittle his numbers down with stalker/sentry from behind your wall.
On December 05 2011 01:26 KalWarkov wrote: its possible to hold with this build, if you open up with stalker and puke their ramp and dont build any sentrys at the very beginning. furthermore, you have to safe a lot of crono on your warptech, so you have 3 warpins rdy when hes near / in your base. stalker kite-micro should deal with marine scv allins then.
when u scout gas or youre not sure whether he techs or not, play a "safer" build, although people with very good micro can deal with every early game pressure doing it. And its one of the best openings against 1-1-1s or leading into macrogames.
Yea, but he makes no mention of skipping the sentry and instead getting the stalker in his guide. I was saying that if you commit to the sentry as your 3rd unit, it becomes very hard to hold.
IMO, the best way to hold it is to see it coming early. If you cancel your nexus and wall off the top of your ramp with gateways, it's an easy win. I don't think beating marine SCV all-ins with this opening is much different than with other 1 gate FE's. Just keep tabs on T's ramp/natural and hold a watch tower between your bases if possible. If cheese is coming, wall off and whittle his numbers down with stalker/sentry from behind your wall.
Seems like a good build, but how can this hold of a 1-1-1 that comes with 3 tanks, 2-3 banshees noncloak and 17 marines + 20 scvs at 9:30? (as in, 9:30 in your natural.)
On December 13 2011 03:13 Zanazuah wrote: Seems like a good build, but how can this hold of a 1-1-1 that comes with 3 tanks, 2-3 banshees noncloak and 17 marines + 20 scvs at 9:30? (as in, 9:30 in your natural.)
This has been answered in other threads a ton of times before.. When you notice they will 1-1-1 (you've scouted gas early but they don't expand etc.) you simply go up to 35ish probes and 4 to 5 gates (depends on timing a bit) + 1 robo. At the time he pushes you have ideally have around 2 probes per mineral on both main and nat and only 2 gasses. Simply mass zealots + immortals as much as possible and try to flank his army when he attacks (so you get good surface area for the zealots and your immortals hit his tanks). Warp in stalkers during the fight and clean up the banshee's with that. If he pulls more then 5 scv's you have to pull an appropiate amount of probes too.
If you 1 gate FE and recognize the 1-1-1 in time it's not that hard to stop on most of the current map pool, on some of the smaller ones it's a bit more difficult but still doable. The faster you expand the easier it is though, so the greedier you learn to be against bio openings the better it makes you against 1-1-1.
On December 13 2011 02:46 Gtoad wrote: Who is this "Baz" guy? Is he really good or something?
Just a normal NA highly ranked ladder Terran. A month or so ago when my MMR was GM level (it's fallen a bit recently), I used to play him a decent amount on ladder, and he was mostly notable for making a lot of marines in the early game (which my style at the time was weak against) and being BM when it worked. If you ever run into a T that makes a lot of marines, I'd recommend staying away from the 2-base gateway and immortal timings I used to do a lot.
On December 13 2011 03:13 Zanazuah wrote: Seems like a good build, but how can this hold of a 1-1-1 that comes with 3 tanks, 2-3 banshees noncloak and 17 marines + 20 scvs at 9:30? (as in, 9:30 in your natural.)
Make a lot of gateway units?
Defending a 1-1-1 off of a 1 gate FE is as simple as massing zealots and stalkers--the trick is defending the harass well. What I'd recommend is doing the 2 gate opening I describe in the OP, starting your robo and then your 2nd assimilator while your 2nd zealot builds (before WG tech finishes), scouting T's natural at ~6:30, and if nothing is going on there by the time your robo finishes, it's most likely a 1-1-1. Chronoboost out 2 (or 3 if cloaked banshees) observers and position stalkers in your mineral lines to defend the likely banshee harass. Get to 6 gateways. Pull 1 probe off of each of your assimilators (you need minerals to defend, and 4 on probes on gas is plenty), and cut probes entirely once you have 36 probes total (4 probes on gas, 32 probes on minerals which is 2 probes for each of your 16 patches). Mass zealots with some stalker and immortal support off of 6 gates.
It's helpful to place a pylon in an open space out a ways from your natural and to engage in the open space. Fighting in an open space is much better for your zealots, and you'll often catch T moving with his tanks unsieged. Alternatively, you force the tanks to siege a longer distance from your natural which buys you a little more time to leverage your macro advantage since (you'll be mining two bases and he'll have half of his SCVs sitting in the middle of the map).
Forgive the stupid question, but are there replays of this? People were talking about a replay, but I don't see one. I seem to end up with my zealot finishing long after my warpgate if I chrono WG.
The replay is at the bottom of the OP. It just shows up as [image loading] for me but clicking on that prompts me to download it.
Is there a reason you haven't listed chronoboosts in the build (past the initial 2-3 on probes)? Do you actually switch it up depending on what you scout? I tried the build a couple of times and I believe you only want 2-3 chronoboosts on WG and 1-2 on your gateway after you start the sentry. I try to get a feel for which structure needs a chrono to line up the zealot with the WG research.
When I do your FE, I do this where I only go up his ramp if he gets 2 marines because conc. However, if you get caught with an early reaper in your base, you can be in trouble because you will only have a sentry for defense. So if you see 2 marines, is it still ok to go up his ramp or will you be caught dealing with a reaper with only a sentry? I ask this because going 2 stalker after zealot instead of sentry would mean you are safe from a reaper.
1 marine techlab my units will be at my base anyway.
I don't think 2 marine techlab is common, but 1 reaper in your base while your stalker is away can be trouble.
I don't recommend the z+s poke with this opening for the reason you said--if they make a reaper, you're screwed. Also, because you don't chronoboost the stalker, it's not safe without a probe sac even if you see 2 marines, and it leaves you with nothing at home to clean up bunkers.
Since NrGmonk has posted his guide about the MC-1gate-FE (which I had be doing a longer while ago in the past but kinda totally stopped doing it) I've been playing around and comparing the different fe-versions in pvt again. The different pro's and con's of those builds are described in the OP's anyways but people might be interested in a short economic comparision.
The comparision takes all those fe-openings and compares them at the same ingame times and the sooner/earlier nexus finishing times compared to kcdc-version are also taken into account by factoring in non-chronoboosted-nonstop-probe-production afterwards. For a perfect economic comparision you need to factor in that some builds get more probes earlier and net you more minerals early on (those with later nexi) while on the other hand those openings have the drawback of being able to start mining later from the natural expansion resulting in all probes above 16+3 in the main base are only going to main with about 50% efficiency until the nexus at the natural base finishes. I don't want to go into other details of those openings here, I hope people find the provided information useful as a quick comparision on what kind of economy they can expect from different common versions when they choose the opening of their personal preference.
kcdc-FE (standard 2cb version described in the OP): 28 probes Huk-FE (classic version with nexus before first stalker; probe cuts for 3 gates and 2 stalkers built before wg research): 27 probes Huk-FE (as above with stalker before nexus): 26 probes (note: On his stream Huk has been doing his 2gas stalker-sentry-sentry expand quite often again. I didn't do enough testing on this version.) Sase-FE (similar to original HuK-FE: 19 probes, 2 probes in gas (nets around 20sec earlier nexus, slightly quicker version of HuK): 28 probes Sase-FE (greedy: if you scout gasless fe and can rule out scv-marine-allins -> you can perma cb probes now and delay further gates a little bit to get your next pylon up sooner for nonstop probe production, unless you want to go on the offensive with an aggressive stalker-warpin): 32 probes MC-FE (see NrGmonk's guide about detailed information): 26 probes
in big maps vs terran i have a diff build. Dont know if you remember mvpTails vs IMMVP from GSTL. The 2 stalker into expand build is my favourite opening agiasnt terran.
Build: pylon, gateway, gas -> scout 3 chrono on probes 2nd gateway, cyber core (at this time you will have around 17 probes - you have money for all this cause you cut 2nd pylon) 2nd pylon -> when finish 2x stalkers with chrono.
from here you have a variation.. you will have 24/26 food... either you cut probes and make 3rd stalker into expand.. presure with 3 stlakers if terran goes fast CC or make probes into expnad.
The 2 fast stalker allows you to deny or make really hard for the terran to expand (if cc first then kite marines, deny bunker until 3rd stalker arrives) The other situation if terrans 111 you.. is again good since they dont have units at the start of the game.. only marines.. so you can poke with stalkers.. keeping the number of the marines low until they have siege.
The good part in this strat is that you pressure a lot, and after you the 2(3) stalkers from the beginning you don't need to make any unit for the next 2 3 minutes.. you can just probe + tech building.
Only situation when the terran 2 rack pressures is when you make units.. if marines.. you can kite them.. 0 lose.. if marauders.. you can still retreat before concusive is done.. and get out 2 zelots, or 1 zel 1 sentry before the push hits.. so you will have 4 gateway units.. which is enough. You can even pull probes if needed since you have the fast nexus advantage..
On December 19 2011 17:19 jarod wrote: in big maps vs terran i have a diff build. Dont know if you remember mvpTails vs IMMVP from GSTL. The 2 stalker into expand build is my favourite opening agiasnt terran.
Build: pylon, gateway, gas -> scout 3 chrono on probes 2nd gateway, cyber core (at this time you will have around 17 probes - you have money for all this cause you cut 2nd pylon) 2nd pylon -> when finish 2x stalkers with chrono.
from here you have a variation.. you will have 24/26 food... either you cut probes and make 3rd stalker into expand.. presure with 3 stlakers if terran goes fast CC or make probes into expnad.
The 2 fast stalker allows you to deny or make really hard for the terran to expand (if cc first then kite marines, deny bunker until 3rd stalker arrives) The other situation if terrans 111 you.. is again good since they dont have units at the start of the game.. only marines.. so you can poke with stalkers.. keeping the number of the marines low until they have siege.
The good part in this strat is that you pressure a lot, and after you the 2(3) stalkers from the beginning you don't need to make any unit for the next 2 3 minutes.. you can just probe + tech building.
Only situation when the terran 2 rack pressures is when you make units.. if marines.. you can kite them.. 0 lose.. if marauders.. you can still retreat before concusive is done.. and get out 2 zelots, or 1 zel 1 sentry before the push hits.. so you will have 4 gateway units.. which is enough. You can even pull probes if needed since you have the fast nexus advantage..
What do you think about this?
Seems like you have no way to deny scouting of your fast second Gate, which means the Terran player will know about your Stalker pressure and react accordingly.
On December 19 2011 17:19 jarod wrote: in big maps vs terran i have a diff build. Dont know if you remember mvpTails vs IMMVP from GSTL. The 2 stalker into expand build is my favourite opening agiasnt terran.
Build: pylon, gateway, gas -> scout 3 chrono on probes 2nd gateway, cyber core (at this time you will have around 17 probes - you have money for all this cause you cut 2nd pylon) 2nd pylon -> when finish 2x stalkers with chrono.
from here you have a variation.. you will have 24/26 food... either you cut probes and make 3rd stalker into expand.. presure with 3 stlakers if terran goes fast CC or make probes into expnad.
The 2 fast stalker allows you to deny or make really hard for the terran to expand (if cc first then kite marines, deny bunker until 3rd stalker arrives) The other situation if terrans 111 you.. is again good since they dont have units at the start of the game.. only marines.. so you can poke with stalkers.. keeping the number of the marines low until they have siege.
The good part in this strat is that you pressure a lot, and after you the 2(3) stalkers from the beginning you don't need to make any unit for the next 2 3 minutes.. you can just probe + tech building.
Only situation when the terran 2 rack pressures is when you make units.. if marines.. you can kite them.. 0 lose.. if marauders.. you can still retreat before concusive is done.. and get out 2 zelots, or 1 zel 1 sentry before the push hits.. so you will have 4 gateway units.. which is enough. You can even pull probes if needed since you have the fast nexus advantage..
What do you think about this?
Seems like you have no way to deny scouting of your fast second Gate, which means the Terran player will know about your Stalker pressure and react accordingly.
That is true.. but before stalker pops out you cannot deny anyhow the scouting.. and well even if the T sees the 2 gateway, since I have only 1 gas, this can lead also to a latter 4 gate, or a 3 gate pressure or to an expand.. Even if the terran react ok and make units, you are safe to expand or to defend. After the stalkers are out they have no scouting info, the wont know if you are adding 2 more gates or if expand, but you will konw exactly what is he doing cause you can make pressure.
Saw hero do something similar here on a largers map, Daybreak. He went 1 gate nexus after stalker and went zealot/stalker/sentry/stalker/stalker from his first gate and an early 2nd gateway with no 3rd gateway.
On December 24 2011 21:59 NrGmonk wrote: Saw hero do something similar here on a largers map, Daybreak. He went 1 gate nexus after stalker and went zealot/stalker/sentry/stalker/stalker from his first gate and an early 2nd gateway with no 3rd gateway.
Hmmm...stalker as the 4thh unit. That might be better, but the build time is longer, and it slows the robo down 50 gas.
Glad that pros are figuring out that they can be more greedy with 1 gate FE. I find that I'm economically even with gasless FE with this build, and the fast robo means I have no problem with cloak rushes. Particularly now that all Terrans rush their 2nd depot to deny the scout probe, it's nice to have an opening that you don't have to make guesses with.
I think main difference was he went for zealot-zealot-sentry-stalker, which seems a bit odd to me. He also cut probes for a bit longer to get the stalker out a bit faster, which actually left his gateway inactive for a bit until WG research was done.
In any case, he stopped Polt's 2-rax combat shield rush easily.
Thanks for this very informative piece! I will definitely use this in my P v T! I had a slight variation but I was having trouble with the 2 rax aggression and this should solve my problem. Thanks!
Hey kcdc, I was wondering if you have any more replays of this build against aggressive 2 rax (reactor/tech lab). No offense to pokebunny but I don't think his 2 rax was especially strong in that replay - only 1 scv pulled, only 1 marauder with the army at 6:00. I'm mostly having trouble with more aggressive versions of reactor/tech lab, as in 3-4 scvs pulled, immediate double bunker, and relatively late CC.
In case you want to see how I'm trying to hold it off, here's 7 replays of me practicing with my friend on xel naga. If you have comments on my play they'd be appreciated but what I'm really looking for is replays of better players holding it off so I can emulate it (read: not really looking for replay comments, but if you're curious about where I'm coming from, feel free to take a look). Plus, in half of these replays I do something really silly and instalose. The ones where I play decently are #1 (loss, zealots run off then I lose my head and have bad stalker control) and #5 (held off 2 rax, but I think he didn't execute it very well - no bunkers until 6:30 so I didn't feel pressured). Ignore #4, don't know how that got put into the pack.
I watched 3 of those replays, and the common thread was that you didn't keep warping stuff in during the fight. On XNC and other maps with 4 close stackable patches, you should be able to get your first round of warp-ins out by 6 min. If you then chorno both WG's, you can get your next round by ~6:25 and a third round before 7 min. You weren't far from defending the push in any of the replays--you just need to keep building stuff.
My other small tip is that if he brings 4 SCV's, it's okay to bring 4 probes to the fight. You won't always have to, but if it's a small rush distance and you're unsure whether you can defend it cleanly, grab enough probes to make the defense easier. Pulling some probes for the initial engagement is better than having to pull them later when T is winning the fight.
Lastly, about following up the 2-gate stage of this opening:
I currently use 3 chrono on my nexus and I scout on 22/26. My probe pops out of the nexus, drops a pylon at the ramp, and finds T's position. I've found that earlier probe scouting doesn't give me useful information that I can't get by parking a probe in front of T's natural and then checking for an expansion before 6 min. If you delay your scout like this, you'll find that you have enough resources to make an extra gateway, forge or twilight council at 32/34 (before starting your zealot) or a robo at 34/34 (after starting your zealot).
If you want maximum units, build a gateway at 32/34. It will sync up almost perfectly with the cooldown after the first 2 gates do their first warp-in round, and if you keep warping in right after cooldowns, you'll hit 60 food by ~7:15 and 70 food before 8 min. You can go for a very strong 3-gate pressure against FE Terrans (he'll bitch about your all-in 6 gate) after the 7:15 warp-in (12 WG units) or the 7:45 warp-in (15 WG units). Macroing well off of these 3 gates while building probes will drain all your resources for quite a while, so there's no need to go past 3 gates unless you want to cut probes and go all-in.
The robo transition is more of a standard, passive play (although you can go for an immortal pressure timing if you chrono out an immortal before obs), but you'll have 1 less unit at 6:45.
The forge transition could be cool. I've only just started trying it. I'm going to play around with rushing out +2 armor and syncing it up with charge, DT's and a warp prism. The +2 armor should make it a pain in the ass to clean up dropped chargelots by which time I'll have dropped in another round at another base, making him burn scans with DT's at the same time. I think it could work well on big maps like TDA.
It worked hilariously well, but I'd say there's plenty of refining to do. It was also kind of cool that I could hit 3/3 off of 1 forge by ~20 min. Has anyone else tried this sort of mid-game?
EPT![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-241812.jpg)
