EPT[G] A slightly improved PvT 1 gate FE - Page 10
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twoscomp
United States42 Posts
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Fairwell
Austria195 Posts
The comparision takes all those fe-openings and compares them at the same ingame times and the sooner/earlier nexus finishing times compared to kcdc-version are also taken into account by factoring in non-chronoboosted-nonstop-probe-production afterwards. For a perfect economic comparision you need to factor in that some builds get more probes earlier and net you more minerals early on (those with later nexi) while on the other hand those openings have the drawback of being able to start mining later from the natural expansion resulting in all probes above 16+3 in the main base are only going to main with about 50% efficiency until the nexus at the natural base finishes. I don't want to go into other details of those openings here, I hope people find the provided information useful as a quick comparision on what kind of economy they can expect from different common versions when they choose the opening of their personal preference. kcdc-FE (standard 2cb version described in the OP): 28 probes Huk-FE (classic version with nexus before first stalker; probe cuts for 3 gates and 2 stalkers built before wg research): 27 probes Huk-FE (as above with stalker before nexus): 26 probes (note: On his stream Huk has been doing his 2gas stalker-sentry-sentry expand quite often again. I didn't do enough testing on this version.) Sase-FE (similar to original HuK-FE: 19 probes, 2 probes in gas (nets around 20sec earlier nexus, slightly quicker version of HuK): 28 probes Sase-FE (greedy: if you scout gasless fe and can rule out scv-marine-allins -> you can perma cb probes now and delay further gates a little bit to get your next pylon up sooner for nonstop probe production, unless you want to go on the offensive with an aggressive stalker-warpin): 32 probes MC-FE (see NrGmonk's guide about detailed information): 26 probes | ||
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jarod
Romania766 Posts
The 2 stalker into expand build is my favourite opening agiasnt terran. Build: pylon, gateway, gas -> scout 3 chrono on probes 2nd gateway, cyber core (at this time you will have around 17 probes - you have money for all this cause you cut 2nd pylon) 2nd pylon -> when finish 2x stalkers with chrono. from here you have a variation.. you will have 24/26 food... either you cut probes and make 3rd stalker into expand.. presure with 3 stlakers if terran goes fast CC or make probes into expnad. The 2 fast stalker allows you to deny or make really hard for the terran to expand (if cc first then kite marines, deny bunker until 3rd stalker arrives) The other situation if terrans 111 you.. is again good since they dont have units at the start of the game.. only marines.. so you can poke with stalkers.. keeping the number of the marines low until they have siege. The good part in this strat is that you pressure a lot, and after you the 2(3) stalkers from the beginning you don't need to make any unit for the next 2 3 minutes.. you can just probe + tech building. Only situation when the terran 2 rack pressures is when you make units.. if marines.. you can kite them.. 0 lose.. if marauders.. you can still retreat before concusive is done.. and get out 2 zelots, or 1 zel 1 sentry before the push hits.. so you will have 4 gateway units.. which is enough. You can even pull probes if needed since you have the fast nexus advantage.. What do you think about this? | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On December 19 2011 17:19 jarod wrote: in big maps vs terran i have a diff build. Dont know if you remember mvpTails vs IMMVP from GSTL. The 2 stalker into expand build is my favourite opening agiasnt terran. Build: pylon, gateway, gas -> scout 3 chrono on probes 2nd gateway, cyber core (at this time you will have around 17 probes - you have money for all this cause you cut 2nd pylon) 2nd pylon -> when finish 2x stalkers with chrono. from here you have a variation.. you will have 24/26 food... either you cut probes and make 3rd stalker into expand.. presure with 3 stlakers if terran goes fast CC or make probes into expnad. The 2 fast stalker allows you to deny or make really hard for the terran to expand (if cc first then kite marines, deny bunker until 3rd stalker arrives) The other situation if terrans 111 you.. is again good since they dont have units at the start of the game.. only marines.. so you can poke with stalkers.. keeping the number of the marines low until they have siege. The good part in this strat is that you pressure a lot, and after you the 2(3) stalkers from the beginning you don't need to make any unit for the next 2 3 minutes.. you can just probe + tech building. Only situation when the terran 2 rack pressures is when you make units.. if marines.. you can kite them.. 0 lose.. if marauders.. you can still retreat before concusive is done.. and get out 2 zelots, or 1 zel 1 sentry before the push hits.. so you will have 4 gateway units.. which is enough. You can even pull probes if needed since you have the fast nexus advantage.. What do you think about this? Seems like you have no way to deny scouting of your fast second Gate, which means the Terran player will know about your Stalker pressure and react accordingly. | ||
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jarod
Romania766 Posts
On December 19 2011 18:12 TheDwf wrote: Seems like you have no way to deny scouting of your fast second Gate, which means the Terran player will know about your Stalker pressure and react accordingly. That is true.. but before stalker pops out you cannot deny anyhow the scouting.. and well even if the T sees the 2 gateway, since I have only 1 gas, this can lead also to a latter 4 gate, or a 3 gate pressure or to an expand.. Even if the terran react ok and make units, you are safe to expand or to defend. After the stalkers are out they have no scouting info, the wont know if you are adding 2 more gates or if expand, but you will konw exactly what is he doing cause you can make pressure. | ||
monk
United States8477 Posts
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On December 24 2011 21:59 NrGmonk wrote: Saw hero do something similar here on a largers map, Daybreak. He went 1 gate nexus after stalker and went zealot/stalker/sentry/stalker/stalker from his first gate and an early 2nd gateway with no 3rd gateway. Hmmm...stalker as the 4thh unit. That might be better, but the build time is longer, and it slows the robo down 50 gas. Glad that pros are figuring out that they can be more greedy with 1 gate FE. I find that I'm economically even with gasless FE with this build, and the fast robo means I have no problem with cloak rushes. Particularly now that all Terrans rush their 2nd depot to deny the scout probe, it's nice to have an opening that you don't have to make guesses with. | ||
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Magnetz
9 Posts
I was previously doing some off-the-cuff 1 rax expand and then doing a 3-4 gate robo all-in after I inevitably lose my expo. | ||
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galzohar
Israel100 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + I think main difference was he went for zealot-zealot-sentry-stalker, which seems a bit odd to me. He also cut probes for a bit longer to get the stalker out a bit faster, which actually left his gateway inactive for a bit until WG research was done. In any case, he stopped Polt's 2-rax combat shield rush easily. | ||
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Cepteel
47 Posts
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whistle
United States141 Posts
In case you want to see how I'm trying to hold it off, here's 7 replays of me practicing with my friend on xel naga. If you have comments on my play they'd be appreciated but what I'm really looking for is replays of better players holding it off so I can emulate it (read: not really looking for replay comments, but if you're curious about where I'm coming from, feel free to take a look). Plus, in half of these replays I do something really silly and instalose. The ones where I play decently are #1 (loss, zealots run off then I lose my head and have bad stalker control) and #5 (held off 2 rax, but I think he didn't execute it very well - no bunkers until 6:30 so I didn't feel pressured). Ignore #4, don't know how that got put into the pack. http://drop.sc/packs/486 Thanks  | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
My other small tip is that if he brings 4 SCV's, it's okay to bring 4 probes to the fight. You won't always have to, but if it's a small rush distance and you're unsure whether you can defend it cleanly, grab enough probes to make the defense easier. Pulling some probes for the initial engagement is better than having to pull them later when T is winning the fight. Lastly, about following up the 2-gate stage of this opening: I currently use 3 chrono on my nexus and I scout on 22/26. My probe pops out of the nexus, drops a pylon at the ramp, and finds T's position. I've found that earlier probe scouting doesn't give me useful information that I can't get by parking a probe in front of T's natural and then checking for an expansion before 6 min. If you delay your scout like this, you'll find that you have enough resources to make an extra gateway, forge or twilight council at 32/34 (before starting your zealot) or a robo at 34/34 (after starting your zealot). If you want maximum units, build a gateway at 32/34. It will sync up almost perfectly with the cooldown after the first 2 gates do their first warp-in round, and if you keep warping in right after cooldowns, you'll hit 60 food by ~7:15 and 70 food before 8 min. You can go for a very strong 3-gate pressure against FE Terrans (he'll bitch about your all-in 6 gate) after the 7:15 warp-in (12 WG units) or the 7:45 warp-in (15 WG units). Macroing well off of these 3 gates while building probes will drain all your resources for quite a while, so there's no need to go past 3 gates unless you want to cut probes and go all-in. The robo transition is more of a standard, passive play (although you can go for an immortal pressure timing if you chrono out an immortal before obs), but you'll have 1 less unit at 6:45. The forge transition could be cool. I've only just started trying it. I'm going to play around with rushing out +2 armor and syncing it up with charge, DT's and a warp prism. The +2 armor should make it a pain in the ass to clean up dropped chargelots by which time I'll have dropped in another round at another base, making him burn scans with DT's at the same time. I think it could work well on big maps like TDA. | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
http://drop.sc/100061 It worked hilariously well, but I'd say there's plenty of refining to do. It was also kind of cool that I could hit 3/3 off of 1 forge by ~20 min. Has anyone else tried this sort of mid-game? | ||
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