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United States8476 Posts
On December 04 2011 22:04 opisska wrote:
I think that guides like this are the best example, how the TL "top level only" atitude is detrimental to helping any lower level players.
I am a platinum player. I can lose 6 minute games using this build all day long, what do I learn from that? (Not to mention that it is not particularly amusing.) I have basically never in my life beaten a marauder heavy early attack without an immortal or two.
At high level, when you can expect good micro form both sides, this build is excellent. At lwo level, where microing gateway units is orders of magnitude more difficult than m&m, this is just a very stupid way of playing. But we won't ever get a guide what to do, will we? (Apart of "get better with you micro".)
A lot of people have already responded to this, but I feel like I have to chime in as well. This post is just ridiculous. How is this guide detrimental to helping lower level players? If you can't execute it, just ignore the guide. Or practice the build until you can get it. Do you expect us to write guides that aren't optimal for high level play? What would be the point of that?
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On December 05 2011 01:05 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2011 22:04 opisska wrote:
I think that guides like this are the best example, how the TL "top level only" atitude is detrimental to helping any lower level players.
I am a platinum player. I can lose 6 minute games using this build all day long, what do I learn from that? (Not to mention that it is not particularly amusing.) I have basically never in my life beaten a marauder heavy early attack without an immortal or two.
At high level, when you can expect good micro form both sides, this build is excellent. At lwo level, where microing gateway units is orders of magnitude more difficult than m&m, this is just a very stupid way of playing. But we won't ever get a guide what to do, will we? (Apart of "get better with you micro".) A lot of people have already responded to this, but I feel like I have to chime in as well. This post is just ridiculous. How is this guide detrimental to helping lower level players? If you can't execute it, just ignore the guide. Or practice the build until you can get it. Do you expect us to write guides that aren't optimal for high level play? What would be the point of that?
Pretty much this. If you are so worried about early pressure, 3 gate expand. Its not going to hurt you in the long run against most platinum players because they will either 1 rax expand and you can punish that heavily with 3 gate pressure, or 2/3 rax you and you hold it. Simple.
On the guide - yeah you saved my PvT. I just couldn't get a good order for the initial units out of my gateways, and now I'm finally feeling solid in the match up after about 2 months of getting schooled. Thanks man.
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On December 04 2011 22:04 opisska wrote:
I think that guides like this are the best example, how the TL "top level only" atitude is detrimental to helping any lower level players.
I am a platinum player. I can lose 6 minute games using this build all day long, what do I learn from that? (Not to mention that it is not particularly amusing.) I have basically never in my life beaten a marauder heavy early attack without an immortal or two.
At high level, when you can expect good micro form both sides, this build is excellent. At lwo level, where microing gateway units is orders of magnitude more difficult than m&m, this is just a very stupid way of playing. But we won't ever get a guide what to do, will we? (Apart of "get better with you micro".)
The micro goes like this:
If he has too much stuff or pulled SCVs, pull your workers.
pop guardian shield.
A-move into his army with the zealots (optionally have each zealot attack a separate marauder).
Select your stalkers and focus fire the marauders one at a time (all your stalkers should be attacking a single marauder).
Pull back any stalkers taking fire. Only zealots should be taking damage.
Once marauders are dead, Begin kiting marines with stalkers.
Don't miss any warp-ins. Chrono gateways if it's heavy pressure.
Don't be afraid to sit back and let him shoot at the nexus for a little bit if you need time for another warp-in. Just don't let him finish any bunkers.
Best of luck!
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United States8476 Posts
On December 04 2011 23:40 Complete wrote:Mmm, I stopped doing this build  scv/marine allins are very hard to deal with going zealot,stalker,sentry
I also agree with this. It seems close to impossible to stop a 2 rax no gas marine scv allin with this build.
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its possible to hold with this build, if you open up with stalker and puke their ramp and dont build any sentrys at the very beginning. furthermore, you have to safe a lot of crono on your warptech, so you have 3 warpins rdy when hes near / in your base. stalker kite-micro should deal with marine scv allins then.
when u scout gas or youre not sure whether he techs or not, play a "safer" build, although people with very good micro can deal with every early game pressure doing it. And its one of the best openings against 1-1-1s or leading into macrogames.
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On December 05 2011 01:19 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2011 23:40 Complete wrote:Mmm, I stopped doing this build scv/marine allins are very hard to deal with going zealot,stalker,sentry I also agree with this. It seems close to impossible to stop a 2 rax no gas marine scv allin with this build.
I haven't kept up with this thread as much as I'd like, do you have a 1g FE variation you like to do?
I've been working on it a little bit. Right now I'm going z,st,st,nexus pulling 1 guy off gas once I have about 70 gas mined. 2 chrono's on the nexus, rest on warp gate. 2nd gate right after nexus is thrown down and robo after that. Gets me warpgate at almost 4gate quick (except off of a 13 gate). I scout a little later for the extra minerals because it's safe against any non-proxy early aggression.
Obviously if I'm able to scout 1rax FE I spend more chrono on nexus and the robo is optional
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United States8476 Posts
On December 05 2011 01:26 KalWarkov wrote:
its possible to hold with this build, if you open up with stalker and puke their ramp and dont build any sentrys at the very beginning. furthermore, you have to safe a lot of crono on your warptech, so you have 3 warpins rdy when hes near / in your base. stalker kite-micro should deal with marine scv allins then.
when u scout gas or youre not sure whether he techs or not, play a "safer" build, although people with very good micro can deal with every early game pressure doing it. And its one of the best openings against 1-1-1s or leading into macrogames.
Yea, but he makes no mention of skipping the sentry and instead getting the stalker in his guide. I was saying that if you commit to the sentry as your 3rd unit, it becomes very hard to hold.
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On December 05 2011 01:19 NrGmonk wrote:
I also agree with this. It seems close to impossible to stop a 2 rax no gas marine scv allin with this build.
But like kcdc already stated, they are hard to defend out of any fe. By accident I actually ran into a marine-scv allin lately on my 2nd account vs some masters guy on the us server (http://drop.sc/68018). I opened with a 9 pylon scout and placed my pylon + gate so I could wall of because my opponent was random, but apart from that it was basically pretty much the kcdc opening when I couldn't get into his base and check his opening (scouted him last). He didn't do the supply drop in the front though, but instead made a 2nd supply debot (the real fast allin version would be 11rax, 12rax, 12rax with orbital, supply drop and moving out with 3 marines + scvs). However, even though I was kinda throwing away my 2 zealots and sentry at my natural by poor micro on my part I hold it off with the stalker warpin and from that point on I was far ahead.
With really quick stalkers and good kiting on the map and sniping out the marines it would be easier to hold of for sure, but if you don't lose the sentry like I did in this game you should be able to ff the ramp to buy enough time for the stalker warpin, from there on you should be fine if you pull some probes to help out.
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United States8476 Posts
On December 05 2011 01:31 Complete wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2011 01:19 NrGmonk wrote:On December 04 2011 23:40 Complete wrote:Mmm, I stopped doing this build scv/marine allins are very hard to deal with going zealot,stalker,sentry I also agree with this. It seems close to impossible to stop a 2 rax no gas marine scv allin with this build. I haven't kept up with this thread as much as I'd like, do you have a 1g FE variation you like to do? I've been working on it a little bit. Right now I'm going z,st,st,nexus pulling 1 guy off gas once I have about 70 gas mined. 2 chrono's on the nexus, rest on warp gate. 2nd gate right after nexus is thrown down and robo after that. Gets me warpgate at almost 4gate quick (except off of a 13 gate). I scout a little later for the extra minerals because it's safe against any non-proxy early aggression. Obviously if I'm able to scout 1rax FE I spend more chrono on nexus and the robo is optional
I do MC's version which is zealot stalker stalker 30 food expo with 0 chornos on warpgates. This is the opening I've noticed that many koreans prefer including MC, Oz, and Creator. I have a guide halfway done on this opening, but I've been too lazy to finish it.
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On December 05 2011 01:44 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2011 01:26 KalWarkov wrote:
its possible to hold with this build, if you open up with stalker and puke their ramp and dont build any sentrys at the very beginning. furthermore, you have to safe a lot of crono on your warptech, so you have 3 warpins rdy when hes near / in your base. stalker kite-micro should deal with marine scv allins then.
when u scout gas or youre not sure whether he techs or not, play a "safer" build, although people with very good micro can deal with every early game pressure doing it. And its one of the best openings against 1-1-1s or leading into macrogames. Yea, but he makes no mention of skipping the sentry and instead getting the stalker in his guide. I was saying that if you commit to the sentry as your 3rd unit, it becomes very hard to hold.
IMO, the best way to hold it is to see it coming early. If you cancel your nexus and wall off the top of your ramp with gateways, it's an easy win. I don't think beating marine SCV all-ins with this opening is much different than with other 1 gate FE's. Just keep tabs on T's ramp/natural and hold a watch tower between your bases if possible. If cheese is coming, wall off and whittle his numbers down with stalker/sentry from behind your wall.
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On December 05 2011 02:54 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2011 01:44 NrGmonk wrote:On December 05 2011 01:26 KalWarkov wrote:
its possible to hold with this build, if you open up with stalker and puke their ramp and dont build any sentrys at the very beginning. furthermore, you have to safe a lot of crono on your warptech, so you have 3 warpins rdy when hes near / in your base. stalker kite-micro should deal with marine scv allins then.
when u scout gas or youre not sure whether he techs or not, play a "safer" build, although people with very good micro can deal with every early game pressure doing it. And its one of the best openings against 1-1-1s or leading into macrogames. Yea, but he makes no mention of skipping the sentry and instead getting the stalker in his guide. I was saying that if you commit to the sentry as your 3rd unit, it becomes very hard to hold. IMO, the best way to hold it is to see it coming early. If you cancel your nexus and wall off the top of your ramp with gateways, it's an easy win. I don't think beating marine SCV all-ins with this opening is much different than with other 1 gate FE's. Just keep tabs on T's ramp/natural and hold a watch tower between your bases if possible. If cheese is coming, wall off and whittle his numbers down with stalker/sentry from behind your wall.
wow, never thought of that thanks!
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whoops, tried to edit OP but hit quote instead
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Who is this "Baz" guy? Is he really good or something?
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Seems like a good build, but how can this hold of a 1-1-1 that comes with 3 tanks, 2-3 banshees noncloak and 17 marines + 20 scvs at 9:30? (as in, 9:30 in your natural.)
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On December 13 2011 03:13 Zanazuah wrote:
Seems like a good build, but how can this hold of a 1-1-1 that comes with 3 tanks, 2-3 banshees noncloak and 17 marines + 20 scvs at 9:30? (as in, 9:30 in your natural.)
This has been answered in other threads a ton of times before..
When you notice they will 1-1-1 (you've scouted gas early but they don't expand etc.) you simply go up to 35ish probes and 4 to 5 gates (depends on timing a bit) + 1 robo. At the time he pushes you have ideally have around 2 probes per mineral on both main and nat and only 2 gasses.
Simply mass zealots + immortals as much as possible and try to flank his army when he attacks (so you get good surface area for the zealots and your immortals hit his tanks). Warp in stalkers during the fight and clean up the banshee's with that. If he pulls more then 5 scv's you have to pull an appropiate amount of probes too.
If you 1 gate FE and recognize the 1-1-1 in time it's not that hard to stop on most of the current map pool, on some of the smaller ones it's a bit more difficult but still doable. The faster you expand the easier it is though, so the greedier you learn to be against bio openings the better it makes you against 1-1-1.
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On December 13 2011 02:46 Gtoad wrote:
Who is this "Baz" guy? Is he really good or something?
Just a normal NA highly ranked ladder Terran. A month or so ago when my MMR was GM level (it's fallen a bit recently), I used to play him a decent amount on ladder, and he was mostly notable for making a lot of marines in the early game (which my style at the time was weak against) and being BM when it worked. If you ever run into a T that makes a lot of marines, I'd recommend staying away from the 2-base gateway and immortal timings I used to do a lot.
On December 13 2011 03:13 Zanazuah wrote:
Seems like a good build, but how can this hold of a 1-1-1 that comes with 3 tanks, 2-3 banshees noncloak and 17 marines + 20 scvs at 9:30? (as in, 9:30 in your natural.)
Make a lot of gateway units?
Defending a 1-1-1 off of a 1 gate FE is as simple as massing zealots and stalkers--the trick is defending the harass well. What I'd recommend is doing the 2 gate opening I describe in the OP, starting your robo and then your 2nd assimilator while your 2nd zealot builds (before WG tech finishes), scouting T's natural at ~6:30, and if nothing is going on there by the time your robo finishes, it's most likely a 1-1-1. Chronoboost out 2 (or 3 if cloaked banshees) observers and position stalkers in your mineral lines to defend the likely banshee harass. Get to 6 gateways. Pull 1 probe off of each of your assimilators (you need minerals to defend, and 4 on probes on gas is plenty), and cut probes entirely once you have 36 probes total (4 probes on gas, 32 probes on minerals which is 2 probes for each of your 16 patches). Mass zealots with some stalker and immortal support off of 6 gates.
It's helpful to place a pylon in an open space out a ways from your natural and to engage in the open space. Fighting in an open space is much better for your zealots, and you'll often catch T moving with his tanks unsieged. Alternatively, you force the tanks to siege a longer distance from your natural which buys you a little more time to leverage your macro advantage since (you'll be mining two bases and he'll have half of his SCVs sitting in the middle of the map).
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Forgive the stupid question, but are there replays of this? People were talking about a replay, but I don't see one. I seem to end up with my zealot finishing long after my warpgate if I chrono WG.
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The replay is at the bottom of the OP. It just shows up as [image loading] for me but clicking on that prompts me to download it.
Is there a reason you haven't listed chronoboosts in the build (past the initial 2-3 on probes)? Do you actually switch it up depending on what you scout? I tried the build a couple of times and I believe you only want 2-3 chronoboosts on WG and 1-2 on your gateway after you start the sentry. I try to get a feel for which structure needs a chrono to line up the zealot with the WG research.
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When I do your FE, I do this where I only go up his ramp if he gets 2 marines because conc. However, if you get caught with an early reaper in your base, you can be in trouble because you will only have a sentry for defense. So if you see 2 marines, is it still ok to go up his ramp or will you be caught dealing with a reaper with only a sentry? I ask this because going 2 stalker after zealot instead of sentry would mean you are safe from a reaper.
1 marine techlab my units will be at my base anyway.
I don't think 2 marine techlab is common, but 1 reaper in your base while your stalker is away can be trouble.
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I don't recommend the z+s poke with this opening for the reason you said--if they make a reaper, you're screwed. Also, because you don't chronoboost the stalker, it's not safe without a probe sac even if you see 2 marines, and it leaves you with nothing at home to clean up bunkers.
This opening just shouldn't do the poke.
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EPT
